Re: Re: My Butcher and heart disease

[Guest guest]

Well, I am a member, and I detest the idea of even

thinking about menus and amounts. I eat when I like,

and what I like.

Sometimes I indulge in a fad program, like skipping

breakfast as I do these days, but I enjoy poking

around

with my diet as long as it is fun.

What is not fun is when I happen to eat some wheat or

sugar. Wheat of any sort instantly constipates me,

and sugar brings back a candida skin reaction which is

hard to fight off each time.

For me the WAP website, and the books by Sally Fallon

and Dr. Price are godsends.

Think about it if you will, only a tiny bit of poison

is always bad for you. Just a little sand in your

engine is bad for your car. Just one mistake can lose

you a chess game. In fact these sorts of events are

defined by their resulting tragedy. Therefore the

idea of first avoiding bad stuff in the diet makes

sense. Once I eliminated stuff that are bad for me, I

began a life I had never known before. Normal,

perhaps, eh? To me normality is heaven, and wheat is

poison, as is sucrose.

Cheers!

Steve

> Maybe what would be more helpful to me is a

> list of sample menus

> from the people on this list, to see the proper

> ratios and amounts that

> should be eaten. I look at those meal suggestions

> in NT and it seems

> like a lot of food to me within one meal. Do you

> all eat that much food

> at one setting normally?

=====

# Steve Veeneman - svnmn@...

# What do you really want...

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

At 09:09 AM 6/16/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>Hi Heidi,

> In other words, you think one would be better off perfecting their

>diet by following NT, as this book won't give one anything extra that NT

>doesn't already provide?

Well, not really. I read all these books because to me, they are like data

points when you are plotting a graph. Parts of them overlap -- yeah, I know,

some people disagree with this and say they are all different -- and the parts

that overlap or are close are the ones that make me think. And the parts that

are " way out there " make me research to see if the author is on to something or

if the author is a quack.

NT gives a lot of information about food preparation -- and I like to cook! It

doesn't give a lot of information about balancing macronutrients (starch, fats,

vegies, proteins). That balancing was always difficult for me when I started

cooking for a crew. How many potatoes SHOULD I cook? How much meat? What finally

solved the issue was reading Cliff Sheat's books -- he's a nutritionist

specializing in athletes, but his principles are easy and well thought-out

(except he's low fat).

Every person has a different " ideal mix " of foods -- and men seem to use carbs

better then women, which has also been shown by experiment and is certainly true

in our house. But for " what to serve for dinner " kind of questions, I'm

convinced the best algorithm is some protein (about 4 oz, most people just won't

eat more than that), some starch (keep it separate: the men eat more than the

women), some vegies (about 2 cups per person, prepared in a way that is tasty).

Oil/butter separate so people can use as much or little as they want/need.

Fermented vegies/kefir available (I'm still the only kimchee-ite). By " vegies " I

mean the non-starchy vegies.

The Schwartzbein principle concentrates on how much starch you eat -- that is,

regulating the amount for your body/amount of excercise. This on the grounds

that your body doesn't have a " stop sign " for carbs like it does for fats and

protein. I tend to agree on this -- few people will eat a 16 oz steak unless

they feel coerced, or 10 hard-boiled eggs. Or drink a glass of oil. And if you

pig out on lean vegies it doesn't really hurt anything.

But pigging out on cake or popcorn or bread is really easy, and, a lot of people

believe, harmful. Add a basically imbalanced metabolism to the mix and easy

access to carbs and you get modern America --- people really pigging out on

carbs with few or no good fats, protein, or vegies. Hence the stress in the diet

books: less carbs! The protein and oils tend to take care of themselves: you DO

have to teach people to eat vegies (mainly because in this culture we don't know

how to cook them so they taste good!!!!! In other cultures I've met they are

regarded as treats!).

> The insulin issue sounds a lot like what Protein Power preaches

>and I see the WAP site on the book review page doesn't recommend Protein

>Power and discusses their view on insulin. Plus, PP doesn't encourage

>whole foods. At least the below book does. However, a lot of these

>books: Protein Power, The Zone, Atkins, etc. all seem to preach kind of

>the same type of diet, lower carbs and more protein. It would appear

>the book your discussing below has a similar message as well.

Exactly my feelings. There is a lot of overlap. And the paleo diet -- if you

follow a diet that is OLD there isn't a huge amount of carbs, esp. if you take

the balance of carbs and protein. And the carbs that did exist were in a

slower-to-digest or pre-digested form. Actually huge amounts of cheap ground-up

carbs didn't exist until the late 1800's, when the grain combine was invented.

Rich people had lots of bread and pastry before that, but if you read the

accounts, rich people got sick a lot too, and they were fatter than " poor

people " . Today the reverse is true: the poorer you are, the more likely you are

to be fat, probably because poorer people today fill up on cheap packaged foods.

Note: this is not the same as " demonizing " carbs ... it's a matter of finding

their proper place in the diet, and their proper form -- and those are good NT

principles.

> Maybe what would be more helpful to me is a list of sample menus

>from the people on this list, to see the proper ratios and amounts that

>should be eaten. I look at those meal suggestions in NT and it seems

>like a lot of food to me within one meal. Do you all eat that much food

>at one setting normally?

And a lot of cooking! I might do a menu like that for a party, but not in real

life! Our lunches are easy, as mentioned above: A meat, a starch, a pile of

vegies, oil/butter and fermented vegies available. Everything is separate so

people can vary the amounts (esp. starch, which everyone has different opinions

on: my officemate is " doing Atkins " and the guys like a big plate of rice). So

my examples would be:

Steak, potatoes, and salad.

Smoked salmon, parsnips, chutney

Oven-fried rabbit, oven-fries, vegies of some sort.

Beans stewed with meat, cornbread, (vegies are in the beans, low carbers have to

bring their own lunch for this one or fish out the meat from the beans).

Stew (well that one has everything in it: low carbers ignore the potatoes or

sweet potatoes)

Tacos (Starch, meat, vegies all in one, but people make their own)

Stir-fry with rice

Hamburger goulash (hamburger, tomato, onion, greens) with rice or noodles.

Egg frittata (potatoes, vegies and cheese all mixed in: I leave out the potatoes

for the real low-carbers).

We don't eat much grain, but I make sorghum bread sometimes (with kefir, now,

it's pretty good), or cornbread. Our rice isn't really NT, it's just plain

Jasmine rice, but it's digestible and it works for a crew. The rest of the food

is pretty " normal " except that it doesn't use packaged products, it uses fresh

ingredients, and there is always protein and vegies, and the fats are there and

they are good fats. Actually it's a lot like pre-ww2 cooking! I've been making

some marinaded meat for me, and rarer steaks for everyone else, but being a

business, " going raw " is a bit of a stretch still. Many of the vegies are raw

though.

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

I APPRECIATE when others share their menus and amounts. Not all of us have the

luxury of just eating when we like and what we like. Some of us have growing

families and have to feed them what is for their best health for their future.

It is always nice to see what others are doing with meals for their families so

we can get new ideas and to boost our determination to feed them right. So I

say keep sharing!!

Shari

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Veeneman

Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2002 9:49 AM

Subject: Re: Re: My Butcher and heart disease

Well, I am a member, and I detest the idea of even

thinking about menus and amounts. I eat when I like,

and what I like.

Sometimes I indulge in a fad program, like skipping

breakfast as I do these days, but I enjoy poking

around

with my diet as long as it is fun.

What is not fun is when I happen to eat some wheat or

sugar. Wheat of any sort instantly constipates me,

and sugar brings back a candida skin reaction which is

hard to fight off each time.

For me the WAP website, and the books by Sally Fallon

and Dr. Price are godsends.

Think about it if you will, only a tiny bit of poison

is always bad for you. Just a little sand in your

engine is bad for your car. Just one mistake can lose

you a chess game. In fact these sorts of events are

defined by their resulting tragedy. Therefore the

idea of first avoiding bad stuff in the diet makes

sense. Once I eliminated stuff that are bad for me, I

began a life I had never known before. Normal,

perhaps, eh? To me normality is heaven, and wheat is

poison, as is sucrose.

Cheers!

Steve

> Maybe what would be more helpful to me is a

> list of sample menus

> from the people on this list, to see the proper

> ratios and amounts that

> should be eaten. I look at those meal suggestions

> in NT and it seems

> like a lot of food to me within one meal. Do you

> all eat that much food

> at one setting normally?

=====

# Steve Veeneman - svnmn@...

# What do you really want...

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

If this comes back to me then I'll know my 10 days of no mail and bounced

messages from all my groups is over. Did catch this thread on the

website.

Even if yogabud's butcher hasn't eaten anything but meat, potatoes and veggies

throughout his life what has changed is livestock diets to increased grains.

That altered the fat to high in omega 6 instead of omega 3 which is just like

using vegetable oil. My Dad has eaten this way his entire life. Lard

sandwiches

during the Depression even. Only in the last few years in his mid 70's has he

gotten bad knees an inflammotory disease just like heart disease.

Wanita

[Guest guest]

Robin,

I would interject that " The Schwarzbein Principle " and " Life without Bread "

discuss the principle of carb restriction and the rationale behind it that

is not a part of NT as far as I remember - at least they were a revelation

to me, although I had learned about the dangers of hyperinsulinemia in

school. You can follow NT perfectly and still get way more CHO than the

other books recommend. So I'd guess that it would be good to know about the

rationale for CHO restriction. You might decide that eating lots of fruit,

potatoes, and sourdough bread is not wise. On the other hand NT is a good

base to build on that is not really covered in the above books, which are

quite short by comparison. NT takes a lot of study, at least if you have a

brain like a sieve as I have!

Peace,

Kris , gardening in northwest Ohio

----- Original Message -----

From: <Nest4Robin@...>

< >

Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2002 9:09 AM

Subject: Re: My Butcher and heart disease

> Hi Heidi,

> In other words, you think one would be better off perfecting their

> diet by following NT, as this book won't give one anything extra that NT

> doesn't already provide?

> The insulin issue sounds a lot like what Protein Power preaches

> and I see the WAP site on the book review page doesn't recommend Protein

> Power and discusses their view on insulin. Plus, PP doesn't encourage

> whole foods. At least the below book does. However, a lot of these

> books: Protein Power, The Zone, Atkins, etc. all seem to preach kind of

> the same type of diet, lower carbs and more protein. It would appear

> the book your discussing below has a similar message as well.

> Maybe what would be more helpful to me is a list of sample menus

> from the people on this list, to see the proper ratios and amounts that

> should be eaten. I look at those meal suggestions in NT and it seems

> like a lot of food to me within one meal. Do you all eat that much food

> at one setting normally?

> Thanks!

> Robin

>

[Guest guest]

Heidi wrote:

> Every person has a different " ideal mix " of foods -- and men seem to use

carbs better then women, which has also been shown by experiment and is

certainly true in our house. But for " what to serve for dinner " kind of

questions, I'm convinced the best algorithm is some protein (about 4 oz,

most people just won't eat more than that), some starch (keep it separate:

the men eat more than the women), some vegies (about 2 cups per person,

prepared in a way that is tasty). Oil/butter separate so people can use as

much or little as they want/need. Fermented vegies/kefir available (I'm

still the only kimchee-ite). By " vegies " I mean the non-starchy vegies.

Kris:

I do think you have to learn how to include enough fat. I couldn't leave it

to my husband to figure out. But I've discovered that if I work at including

the fat where it is appropriate and limit the CHO foods, he doesn't

complain, and seems to not get hungry so soon - he's the one on diabetes

meds.

Heidi's sample menus :

> Steak, potatoes, and salad.

> Smoked salmon, parsnips, chutney

> Oven-fried rabbit, oven-fries, vegies of some sort.

> Beans stewed with meat, cornbread, (vegies are in the beans, low carbers

have to bring their own lunch for this one or fish out the meat from the

beans).

I wonder why neither of these books takes into account the glycemic index of

foods. I would think the insulin response to beans would be much lower than

for bread or potatoes.

Kris

[Guest guest]

At 01:07 AM 6/17/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>> Beans stewed with meat, cornbread, (vegies are in the beans, low carbers

>have to bring their own lunch for this one or fish out the meat from the

>beans).

>

>I wonder why neither of these books takes into account the glycemic index of

>foods. I would think the insulin response to beans would be much lower than

>for bread or potatoes.

>

>Kris

Atkins doesn't either, and I wonder the same thing! Some other authors do --

what I do is chart my reactions to a given MEAL. I just see how fast I get

hungry after a meal, and how I feel. If the carb level is too high, I get sleepy

(and it DOES depend on the form of the carb! And what else is in the meal.).

Also if there are too many carbs compared to proteins and fats, I get hungry,

very hungry, in 2-3 hours (the dreaded 'blood sugar dip').

" Wet " carbs (like fruit, potatoes, beans: with moisture and fiber) are much

better than dry ones (like cornbread), for me. So I know what kind of breakfast

will A) Get me going in the morning and Let me not be hungry until lunch. But

it's a different amount for each member of the family: so the concept of telling

a person they should eat " n number of carbs " a day is pretty fuzzy, I think.

And I do make it a habit to have some oil/butter with each meal -- you are

correct in that at first, after eating low-fat for so long, one needs some

encouragement to do so. But I don't try to measure the amount too much: at first

I WAY overdid it (just because it was there, I think), now I add less. I do

think somewhere down in your brain your body does know what it needs, but some

foods fool the " appestat " .

Heidi

[Guest guest]

Just curious about how much fat you do eat. I know that when I learned that

butter, cream etc. were actually fine, I was so thrilled I ended up

slathering it on everything - a real butter orgy. Ditto for eggs.

Astrid

----- Original Message -----

From: Heidi Schuppenhauer <heidis@...>

< >

Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 2:02 AM

Subject: Re: Re: My Butcher and heart disease

> At 01:07 AM 6/17/2002 -0400, you wrote:

> >> Beans stewed with meat, cornbread, (vegies are in the beans, low

carbers

> >have to bring their own lunch for this one or fish out the meat from the

> >beans).

> >

> >I wonder why neither of these books takes into account the glycemic index

of

> >foods. I would think the insulin response to beans would be much lower

than

> >for bread or potatoes.

> >

> >Kris

>

> Atkins doesn't either, and I wonder the same thing! Some other authors

do -- what I do is chart my reactions to a given MEAL. I just see how fast I

get hungry after a meal, and how I feel. If the carb level is too high, I

get sleepy (and it DOES depend on the form of the carb! And what else is in

the meal.). Also if there are too many carbs compared to proteins and fats,

I get hungry, very hungry, in 2-3 hours (the dreaded 'blood sugar dip').

>

> " Wet " carbs (like fruit, potatoes, beans: with moisture and fiber) are

much better than dry ones (like cornbread), for me. So I know what kind of

breakfast will A) Get me going in the morning and Let me not be hungry

until lunch. But it's a different amount for each member of the family: so

the concept of telling a person they should eat " n number of carbs " a day is

pretty fuzzy, I think.

>

> And I do make it a habit to have some oil/butter with each meal -- you are

correct in that at first, after eating low-fat for so long, one needs some

encouragement to do so. But I don't try to measure the amount too much: at

first I WAY overdid it (just because it was there, I think), now I add less.

I do think somewhere down in your brain your body does know what it needs,

but some foods fool the " appestat " .

>

>

>

> Heidi

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

At 09:38 AM 6/17/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>Just curious about how much fat you do eat. I know that when I learned that

>butter, cream etc. were actually fine, I was so thrilled I ended up

>slathering it on everything - a real butter orgy. Ditto for eggs.

>Astrid

I should probably log it some time -- I would like to correlate calorie intake

etc. with how I feel, weight issues etc. Right now I can only guestimate:

For breakfast I usually fry a couple of eggs, and sometimes make hash browns,

which involves about a Tbls for coconut oil.

Lunches and dinner are pretty low fat, just because that's the way I cook, but I

add about 1-2 tsp. of butter to the vegies.

Sometimes I make things like fried tacos, which are really high in fat. Or bake

beef ribs, which are also fat. And I drink full-fat kefir, and sometimes put

cream on my berries. And I use cheese in some things or grab a bite for a snack.

And I snack on nuts (we always have a big bowl around). But mainly I think the

fats are in breakfast and bits of snack here and there.

Heidi

[Guest guest]

At 09:45 AM 6/17/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>Thanks Heidi,

> Perhaps Cliff Sheat's book is more what I'm looking for, but the

>low-fat part might confuse me, as how will I know the proper amounts of

>fats to eat?

Yeah -- BUT he also recommends a Tbls of MCT oil with each meal. For weight

loss, this is good. But you can use Coconut oil instead, or butter, for the good

fats. I don't think women need a LOT of fat to be healthy, just some (and

regular cooking supplies that).

> See unlike you, one of my biggest problems is I hate to cook.

>That's why I liked raw foodism, it was so much easier to prepare or grab

>and eat. Although, now I know that diet was lacking in nutrients and

>I'm having to force myself to do some cooking and preparation, as I

>can't bring myself to eat raw meats.

If I was single again I'd live off fermented vegies and tacos, I think! The

trick is to find recipes that are really, really easy, and learn how to chop

fast (I got a big chinese knife and learned chinese chopping, it helps!).

> I also have a crew, kiddo #6 is on

>the way in Oct. My kids are kind of squeamish about the meat too, it's

>an all new taste for them and I'm trying to guard against the

>over-consumption of carbs.

With kids, I'd be careful. Their immune systems aren't as mature. Though I

cooked some really rare ribs the other day and my daughter went CRAZY over them.

She did get a stomach-ache later though!

>I liked your *Note* (below)...I'd say,

>balance is the key. We don't eat a lot of grains, noodles, etc., mostly

>fruits and veggies are our carbo source. I'm fortunate that my kids

>like them! My oldest son stayed at his cousins for a month in Arkansas

>and couldn't wait to get home to eat fruit. They just don't buy much of

>it in their household. He was disgusted with their diet, they fry

>everything in veg. oil and top it all off with Velveeta cheese.

What's weird is that when I do have good stuff around (oranges with coconut, for

instance, or peanut-butter apples), no one eats the bad stuff (potato chips

etc.). They WANT it, and want to buy it, they just don't eat it!

>Everything comes from a can / box or is processed. My sister's family

>is over weight and they have numerous health issues. The biggest thing

>that gets me is they have goats, but they won't milk them and drink the

>raw goat's milk. They go to the store and buy the devitalized crap

>milk. It doesn't make sense to me.

My relatives are the same way. They think I'm nuts. But people do like eating

here! They just say " oh, we couldn't possibly have the time for that " . I said

the same thing ... I HAVE TO cook from scratch though, because we can't process

the boxed food (it mostly has gluten or MSG in it, and I react very badly to

gluten). Once you get over the learning curve, it's not bad.

> Anyhow, thanks for filling me in on how you balance your families

>diet and the meal suggestions.

Good luck!

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

They say it is hard to overeat on fat, as it makes you nauseous, but if you

get carried away with carbs it's easy to eat way too much and gain weight.

Hence the focus on limiting carbs.

Peace,

Kris , gardening in northwest Ohio

----- Original Message -----

From: " Astrid Froese " <astrid.froese@...>

< >

Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 9:38 AM

Subject: Re: Re: My Butcher and heart disease

> Just curious about how much fat you do eat. I know that when I learned

that

> butter, cream etc. were actually fine, I was so thrilled I ended up

> slathering it on everything - a real butter orgy. Ditto for eggs.

> Astrid

[Guest guest]

Heidi

What is MCT oil?

Sonja

[Guest guest]

At 12:10 PM 6/18/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>Heidi,

> What is MCT oil? I have butter, ghee, olive and coconut oil. Now,

>to get back in the habit of regular cooking. I use butter when I

>make eggs, I used the ghee when I made up the liver last week and I use

>the oils regularly in making salad dressings or 'when' I cook. You must

>think I'm terrible, since you obviously love to cook. However, I will

>have you know that I did make the stuff cabbage roll recipe in NT last

>night. My husband was impressed that I spent that much time in the

>kitchen, so he ate it even though he objected to the raisins in the

>recipe. Yet, he liked it. The kids didn't complain and ate it, so I

>guess it was ok for them too.

LOL! I only got into cooking because I HAD to -- I was getting major health

problems from packaged foods (turned out to be gluten, but gluten is in

EVERYTHING). If you have to do something, you should learn to love it -- we

programmers call that " turning a bug into a feature " .

MCT is part of coconut oil. Stands for Medium Chain Triglycerides. The

bodybuilders use it instead of oil, because it doesn't cause fat gain, but

it give lots of energy. You can use it instead of carbs. It goes straight

into the cells for energy, like a carb, but doesn't raise insulin levels. I

like it on salads, because coconut oil is too solid for a salad. I got into

it because of Cliff Sheats, also because I couldn't digest fats well. MCT

digests very, very easily. Hence it is also used for sick kids. But it's

really pricey, and you don't need it for nutrition: coconut oil has more

" stuff " , esp. the virgin kind.

><<Yeah -- BUT he also recommends a Tbls of MCT oil with each meal. For

>weight loss, this is good. But you can use Coconut oil instead, or

>butter, for the good fats. I don't think women need a LOT of fat to be

>healthy, just some (and regular cooking supplies that).>>

>

> I've been reading your posts on Kim Chee, so I went out and bought

>a jar to see what it is suppose to taste like before I'd go to the

>trouble of making it. I got the mild variety, but it still was to hot

>for me. My husband likes it, but I'm not to keen on the stuff. I think

>I'd have to acquire a taste for it. I do like sauerkraut and use to

>make it using seaweed. I suppose I better start making it again.

Just make sauerkraut, but use napa cabbage. Some people don't like the

garlic/hot pepper in the store bought kimchi, but really, the Koreans make

it out of ANYTHING. The store-bought stuff isn't my favorite either. Mine

has more ginger, more carrots (it's half carrots), and it is sweeter. What

gets me is how much faster the process goes using napa.

> I do

>love Mexican food! That was always my biggest down fall to being 100%

>raw. I'd go so long and I'd have a fajita attack! Yes, I do need easy

>recipes to start with.

I made " Mexi-chi " once for tacos ... added chili powder and tomatoes and

green pepper!

OK -- here's one of the family's favorites:

Irish Stew

=======

In a big pot, put a inch or two of water.

Add a package of frozen stew meat (we get it cut up in cubes in a plastic bag)

Add about an equal amount (each) of:

Carrots (cut in 1 1/2 inch pieces: big chunks)

Potatoes (quartered)

Onions (quartered)

Add some salt, and a bay leaf and Worcestershire, if you like.

Cook it with the lid on until the meat is tender.

Ok, now if you want a different kind of stew, throw in some greens at the

end (whatever you have in the fridge: cabbage, kale, collards: they are all

good for you) towards the end. A handful of kraut or kimchi adds flavor

too. Anything going stale in the fridge is fair game. Using parsnips or

leeks instead of carrots gives a whole different taste too. Mexican Oregano

makes for a new heavenly taste. But basically I can do the whole thing in

15 minutes, then go back to my computer and converse with you fine people

until the smell wafts nicely over to me, telling me it is done and time to

call the family for din-din ...

-- Heidi

[Guest guest]

>Thanks Kris!

You wrote below:

<<If you add the fat you've really got to be careful about the carbs or

you might gain undesireable weight - hence carb counting.>>

> I'm wondering if that is what has happened to me? I've added the

fat and protein, but still eat my fruit and veggies in to large of

quantities.

Robin

No doubt that's what's putting on the weight too fast - as happens with lots

of young mothers who happily chow down a typical fatty American diet. Your

body doesn't have a very good mechanism for signally that you've eaten

enough carb, so it's easy to over eat them. Every time you eat excess carbs

your body puts out lots of insulin and drives that excess sugar into your

fat cells as fat. Fat, on the other hand, lets you know that you've had

enough, and, if I understand the mechanism correctly, the fat hangs around

in your blood stream and cells until it's needed, providing a ready supply

for the heart, which only burns fat for energy. That's why it leaves you

satisfied so much longer than carbs.

Kris

[Guest guest]

MCT is Medium chain triglycerides, a very pricey, no doubt highly processed

fat you get from the druggist, used in a ketogenic diet for trreatment of

epilepsy

Peace,

Kris , gardening in northwest Ohio

----- Original Message -----

From: " Kepford " <kepford@...>

" nativenutrition " < >

Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 3:11 PM

Subject: Re: Re: My Butcher and Heart Disease

> Heidi

> What is MCT oil?

> Sonja

>

>

>