Re: Corb content of fermented milk

[Guest guest]

Kris-

>Does anyone know how fermentation (as in yogurt, kefir) affects the carb

>content of milk? Does it actually use up the lactose in the milk, or just

>break it into the two simple sugars - glucose and galactose, if I remember

>correctly.

It reduces the sugar content by turning some of it into lactic acid. I

believe store-bought yoghurt nutritional labels are required to indicate

the carb content of the original milk rather than of the yoghurt, though,

and I don't know of any analysis that shows how much sugar is actually left

in yoghurt after various fermentation times. (Store-bought is typically

fermented for 4 hours or so, the minimum required for coagulation. I

ferment for 24 hours, per _Breaking The Vicious Cycle_, to eliminate

virtually all the lactose. This results in a tarter yoghurt, i.e. one with

more lactic acid and therefore less sugar. I believe I have read that

lactobacteria will even utilize galactose to some degree when there's not

enough lactose around, so the sugar content of 24-hour yoghurt is likely

less than half that of the original dairy. I also replace half the milk

with cream to boost the fat content of the final yoghurt, and it tastes great.)

-

[Guest guest]

At 01:29 PM 6/17/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>Kris-

>

>>Does anyone know how fermentation (as in yogurt, kefir) affects the carb

>>content of milk? Does it actually use up the lactose in the milk, or just

>>break it into the two simple sugars - glucose and galactose, if I remember

>>correctly.

>

>It reduces the sugar content by turning some of it into lactic acid. I

>believe store-bought yoghurt nutritional labels are required to indicate

>the carb content of the original milk rather than of the yoghurt, though,

>and I don't know of any analysis that shows how much sugar is actually left

>in yoghurt after various fermentation times. (Store-bought is typically

>fermented for 4 hours or so, the minimum required for coagulation. I

>ferment for 24 hours, per _Breaking The Vicious Cycle_, to eliminate

>virtually all the lactose. This results in a tarter yoghurt, i.e. one with

>more lactic acid and therefore less sugar. I believe I have read that

>lactobacteria will even utilize galactose to some degree when there's not

>enough lactose around, so the sugar content of 24-hour yoghurt is likely

>less than half that of the original dairy. I also replace half the milk

>with cream to boost the fat content of the final yoghurt, and it tastes great.)

>

>

>-

I think it depends on the culture too. I got some viili and it produces a

sweeter culture (not sour), so I don't know what it is producing. If you make

kefir from kefir (not using the grains, just using some kefir whey), then you

get a different mix of bacteria too. I don't know how lactic acid stacks up as a

carb? It does not seem to affect blood sugar negatively: when I eat kimchi or

kefir in fact it seems to stabilize both my hunger and blood sugar.

Other acids are produced too, and alchohol (from medline):

Kefir samples were prepared and transferred to sterile jars for storage at 4

degrees C. After 0, 7, 14, and 21 d of storage, the pH, organic acid, and

volatile flavor component content were determined to monitor possible flavor

changes during storage. Stored samples were analyzed for organic acid (orotic,

citric, pyruvic, lactic, uric, acetic, propionic, butyric, and hippuric) content

by HPLC with UV detection at 275 nm. Acetoin, ethanol, acetaldehyde, and

diacetyl were monitored using gas chromatography equipped with a headspace

autosampler. There was no significant decrease in average pH of samples between

d 0 and 21 of storage (P>0.05). Lactic acid concentration increased during

storage, reaching a maximum of 7739 ppm by d 21. Orotic and citric acids

increased slightly during storage. Although pyruvic and hippuric acids are

produced during fermentation, neither was detected during storage. Acetic,

propionic, and butyric acids were not detected during kefir storage. Ethanol !

conc

entrations increased during storage and reached 0.08% by d 21. The amounts of

acetaldehyde and acetoin, common flavor substances in many cultured dairy

products, increased during fermentation. Acetaldehyde content in kefir samples

doubled from d 0 to 21, reaching a final concentration of 11 microg/g. During

storage, the concentration of acetoin decreased from 25 ppm on d 0 to 16 ppm on

d 21. However, diacetyl, another common flavor component in cultured dairy

products, was not detected during fermentation or storage.

Heidi Schuppenhauer

Trillium Custom Software Inc.

heidis@...

[Guest guest]

Can you bring this down to laymans terms. Is kefir/yogurt taste better after 21

days vs 4? Is it healthier? Easier to digest?

I was going to get some kefir grains. Is the powder, villi(?) or grains better

for any particular reason?

Thanks for the background

@...

----- Original Message -----

I think it depends on the culture too. I got some viili and it produces a

sweeter culture (not sour), so I don't know what it is producing. If you make

kefir from kefir (not using the grains, just using some kefir whey), then you

get a different mix of bacteria too. I don't know how lactic acid stacks up as a

carb? It does not seem to affect blood sugar negatively: when I eat kimchi or

kefir in fact it seems to stabilize both my hunger and blood sugar.

Other acids are produced too, and alchohol (from medline):

Kefir samples were prepared and transferred to sterile jars for storage at 4

degrees C. After 0, 7, 14, and 21 d of storage, the pH, organic acid, and

volatile flavor component content were determined to monitor possible flavor

changes during storage. Stored samples were analyzed for organic acid (orotic,

citric, pyruvic, lactic, uric, acetic, propionic, butyric, and hippuric) content

by HPLC with UV detection at 275 nm. Acetoin, ethanol, acetaldehyde, and

diacetyl were monitored using gas chromatography equipped with a headspace

autosampler. There was no significant decrease in average pH of samples between

d 0 and 21 of storage (P>0.05). Lactic acid concentration increased during

storage, reaching a maximum of 7739 ppm by d 21. Orotic and citric acids

increased slightly during storage. Although pyruvic and hippuric acids are

produced during fermentation, neither was detected during storage. Acetic,

propionic, and butyric acids were not detected during kefir storage. Ethanol !

conc

entrations increased during storage and reached 0.08% by d 21. The amounts of

acetaldehyde and acetoin, common flavor substances in many cultured dairy

products, increased during fermentation. Acetaldehyde content in kefir samples

doubled from d 0 to 21, reaching a final concentration of 11 microg/g. During

storage, the concentration of acetoin decreased from 25 ppm on d 0 to 16 ppm on

d 21. However, diacetyl, another common flavor component in cultured dairy

products, was not detected during fermentation or storage.

Heidi Schuppenhauer

Trillium Custom Software Inc.

heidis@...

[Guest guest]

Heidi-

>I think it depends on the culture too.

Oh, no question about it at all. I was just talking about yoghurt cultures

because I know the most about them.

I finally gave up on kefir because I discovered that it requires a long

enough incubation to eliminate virtually all the lactose that it just

doesn't taste even remotely good (to me) anymore -- it gets _very_

vinegary, a taste I just don't like in dairy. Kefir that's less-fermented

is very tasty, and is doubtless terrific for most people, but it just

didn't work out for me.

>I don't know how lactic acid stacks up as a carb? It does not seem to

>affect blood sugar negatively: when I eat kimchi or kefir in fact it seems

>to stabilize both my hunger and blood sugar.

This is something I'd _love_ to learn more about: how is lactic acid from

fermented foods metabolized? Can it be converted to body fat? How does it

affect blood sugar levels? How does it affect the metabolism? Is it a

caloric food? I have my guesses, but no hard information. Lactic

acid-rich foods like yoghurt and kefir seem to help me, but only up to a

point, and I'd like to know whether that limit is due to the other carbs

remaining in the food (galactose, for example) or to some limit on how much

lactic acid I can or should consume. I definitely benefit from eating some

yoghurt every single day, but in plain raw cream (treated with lactase, in

my case) seems to offer a different set of benefits.

-

[Guest guest]

The longer it sits, the more carbs are digested, and the more compounds are

created. So it tastes different. Is it better? That depends on how which taste

you like. If you are lactose intolerant though, let it ferment longer.

Viili is just a different taste. I think in terms of health, eating kefir is

about as good as you can do: the other yogurts are a subset of the healthy

bacteria in kefir. But it's just so fun to try new things ...

I would not use kefir powder -- too expensive, for one thing. Kefir grains are

the way to go. You can make kefir by adding some kefir (not the grains) to milk

-- but it's not the same bacterial content as if you make it from the colony.

Ditto with the powder.

-- Heidi

At 05:21 PM 6/17/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>Can you bring this down to laymans terms. Is kefir/yogurt taste better after

21 days vs 4? Is it healthier? Easier to digest?

>

>I was going to get some kefir grains. Is the powder, villi(?) or grains better

for any particular reason?

>

>Thanks for the background

>

>

>@...

> ----- Original Message -----

[Guest guest]

At 05:32 PM 6/17/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>Heidi-

>

>>I think it depends on the culture too.

>

>Oh, no question about it at all. I was just talking about yoghurt cultures

>because I know the most about them.

>I finally gave up on kefir because I discovered that it requires a long

>enough incubation to eliminate virtually all the lactose that it just

>doesn't taste even remotely good (to me) anymore -- it gets _very_

>vinegary, a taste I just don't like in dairy. Kefir that's less-fermented

>is very tasty, and is doubtless terrific for most people, but it just

>didn't work out for me.

--

Well, I can't stand the taste of kefir myself, or yogurt. But mixed with apple

juice and fizz water it's great. And in smoothies. Also the cheese is good. I

don't know how long it takes to get rid of the lactose, but now that I've had

kefir for awhile it isn't bothering me (I don't know if I'm lactose intolerant

or not, but milk products did bother me, now they don't seem to).

>>I don't know how lactic acid stacks up as a carb? It does not seem to

>>affect blood sugar negatively: when I eat kimchi or kefir in fact it seems

>>to stabilize both my hunger and blood sugar.

>

>This is something I'd _love_ to learn more about: how is lactic acid from

>fermented foods metabolized? Can it be converted to body fat? How does it

>affect blood sugar levels? How does it affect the metabolism? Is it a

>caloric food? I have my guesses, but no hard information. Lactic

>acid-rich foods like yoghurt and kefir seem to help me, but only up to a

>point, and I'd like to know whether that limit is due to the other carbs

>remaining in the food (galactose, for example) or to some limit on how much

>lactic acid I can or should consume. I definitely benefit from eating some

>yoghurt every single day, but in plain raw cream (treated with lactase, in

>my case) seems to offer a different set of benefits.

Ditto. I read a little bit that indicates that lactic acid is regarded as

anti-bacterial and anti-carcinogenic. It IS a carb, but more broken down than

sugar. I believe that in the blood it is a by-product of exercise and does get

metabolized. In places like Hawaii they eat lots of fermented stuff with every

meal. They feed fermented potato vines to pigs in great quantity (and it's

considered healthy), so I think in general lactic acid is good to consume. Not

much info on it though.

Kimchi is easier to consume in quantity, and doesn't have lactose!

>

Heidi Schuppenhauer

Trillium Custom Software Inc.

heidis@...

[Guest guest]

At 03:34 PM 6/17/02 -0700, you wrote:

They feed fermented potato vines to pigs in great quantity (and it's

considered healthy), so I think in general lactic acid is good to consume.

Really, Heidi! Pigs will be poisoned if they eat potato or rhubarb tops. Does

the fermentation kill the poison?

Wanita

[Guest guest]

Heidi-

>It IS a carb, but more broken down than sugar. I believe that in the blood

>it is a by-product of exercise and does get metabolized.

All I really know is that, when consumed, lactic acid has a lower caloric

value and has less of an effect on blood sugar, fat deposition, etc., than

sugars. One thing to consider, though, is that there are several different

types of lactic acid. The exercise by-product isn't the same form as the

beneficial type occurring in lacto-fermented foods.

-

[Guest guest]

At 08:25 PM 6/17/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>At 03:34 PM 6/17/02 -0700, you wrote:

>They feed fermented potato vines to pigs in great quantity (and it's

>considered healthy), so I think in general lactic acid is good to consume.

>

>Really, Heidi! Pigs will be poisoned if they eat potato or rhubarb tops. Does

>the fermentation kill the poison?

>Wanita

I kid you not! I think the sweet potato isn't really a " potato " , so maybe the

vines are poisonous. See:

http://www.ruaf.org/1-2/37-38.html

Sweet potato (pomoea batatas) is a valuable pig feed: and both roots and leaves

can be used fresh, dried or fermented into silage (Woolfe, 1992). It is a common

feed for pigs, and other livestock, in many countries in Asia. In Vietnam,

feeding sweet potato roots and vines to pigs, along with rice bran, corn and

sometimes cassava roots, is common in the north and central parts of the

country.

The main constraints to using sweet potato vines as pig feed are labour and

storage. Regardless of how they are fed to the animals, the vines must first be

chopped into small pieces, a daunting and time-consuming task, mainly undertaken

by women. If the vines are fed fresh, the women must allocate time each day for

this task, even during the busy field season.

Silage offers a potential alternative. Use of vine silage overcomes both main

constraints: the women are able to process the vines during the off-season when

labour is more abundant, and store the silage for use when feed is limited.

Moreover, there is also the economic advantage of processing and storing the

vines during the harvest season when they are relatively cheap and feeding them

to pigs during the off-season when the vines are expensive. Furthermore,

ensiling may increase nutritional value and feed efficiency if it involves a

fermentation process, which converts nitrogen into protein.

A trial with 12 fermented mixtures of sweet potato vines and various

combinations of additives was conducted in a village in Ha Tay Province in the

Red River Delta (details are available from the author and will be published

elsewhere). The combinations of additives included corn meal, cassava meal, rice

bran, and sun-dried chicken manure, all locally available and affordable

material. The results showed that fermenting sweet potato vines with chicken

manure increased the crude protein content. However, because high crude protein

content does not necessarily guarantee better quality feed (Gerpacio et al,

1967), a subsequent on-farm pig-feeding trial was conducted to examine the

effects of sweet potato vines fermented with chicken manure on pig growth and

economic efficiency.

Heidi Schuppenhauer

Trillium Custom Software Inc.

heidis@...

[Guest guest]

At 08:50 PM 6/17/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>>It IS a carb, but more broken down than sugar. I believe that in the blood

>>it is a by-product of exercise and does get metabolized.

>

>All I really know is that, when consumed, lactic acid has a lower caloric

>value and has less of an effect on blood sugar, fat deposition, etc., than

>sugars. One thing to consider, though, is that there are several different

>types of lactic acid. The exercise by-product isn't the same form as the

>beneficial type occurring in lacto-fermented foods.

>

>-

What makes it different? (other than the fact one is in the muscles?) See:

http://www.epa.gov/chemrtk/lactacid/c13462tp.pdf

Every human being makes and metabolises about 125 - 150 grams of L(+) lactic

acid each day.

Lactic acid (2-Hydroxypropionic acid)

I'm sure it would have less calories than the sugars -- the whole point is that

the bacteria get some energy out of the process -- but it seems like I read that

the body uses lactic acid for energy also. But what is interesting to me is the

effect on appetite and satiation -- it makes you want to eat your food (hence it

makes a good food additive), but it also tends to make me " satisfied " with the

meal.

Anyway, for someone with access to papers here is one that may answer the

question:

Constituents of nutritional relevance in fermented milk products commercialised

in Italy

L. Gambellia, P. Manzia, G. Panfilib, V. Vivantia and L. Pizzoferrato, , a

a Istituto Nazionale della Nutrizione, Food Chemistry Unit, Via Ardeatina

546-00178 Rome, Italy

b DISTAAM Universitá del Molise, Via De Sanctis-86100 Campobasso, Italy

Received 28 October 1998; revised 29 January 1999; accepted 29 January 1999.

Available online 28 May 1999.

Abstract

Fermented milk products represent an increasing share of the dairy products

consumed in Italy. The nutritional value of these products is related to the

milk utilised and to the eventual presence of other ingredients (milk powder,

sugar, fruit puree and fruit extracts), whereas the microrganisms used can

affect texture and organoleptic characteristics. In this paper constituents of

nutritional relevance such as protein, fat, total carbohydrate, amino acids,

minerals, vitamin A, vitamin E and cholesterol, have been evaluated in yoghurts,

fermented milks (plain and with essences) and Quark cheeses (plain and with

fruits). This study confirms the high nutritional quality of fermented milks and

stresses the role of non-milk ingredients in modifying and, sometimes, improving

the dietary contribution of these products.

ICorressponding author. Tel: +39-06503-2412; fax: +39-06503-1592; email:

pizzof@...

Food Chemistry

Volume 66, Issue 3, August 1999, Pages 353-358

==================

Here is a Korean take on lactic acid:

http://english.tour2korea.com/site/data/html_dir/2002/03/22/20020322000003-1.htm\

l

Well-fermented Kimchi has anti-biotic functions as lactic acid bacteria produced

in the process of fermentation that suppresses growth of harmful bacteria.

This bacteria not only gives a sourish flavor to matured Kimchi but also

prevents excessive fermentation by restraining growth of other bacteria in the

intestines.

Not only that, substances in Kimchi prevent hyperacidity resulting from

excessive intake of meat and other acidic foods.

Most ingredients of Kimchi are rich in water and low in other nutrients.

However, lactic acid in Kimchi restrains the growth of harmful bacteria in

intestines and help relieve intestinal disorders.

In addition, the lactic acid is efficacious for preventing adult diseases such

as obesity, diabetes, and even gastrointestinal cancers.

Not only that, the juice from vegetables and salt in Kimchi help intestines

remain clean.

Some substances in Kimchi help promote the secretion of pepsin

(protein-digestive enzyme) and maintain the presence of a certain number of

bacteria.

Heidi Schuppenhauer

Trillium Custom Software Inc.

heidis@...

[Guest guest]

>>They feed fermented potato vines to pigs in great quantity (and it's

>>considered healthy), so I think in general lactic acid is good to consume.

>>

>>Really, Heidi! Pigs will be poisoned if they eat potato or rhubarb tops.

Does

>>the fermentation kill the poison?

>>Wanita

>

>I kid you not! I think the sweet potato isn't really a " potato " , so maybe the

vines are poisonous. See:

>

><http://www.ruaf.org/1-2/37-38.html>http://www.ruaf.org/1-2/37-38.html

>Sweet potato (pomoea batatas) is a valuable pig feed: and both roots and

leaves can be used fresh, dried or fermented into silage (Woolfe, 1992). It is

a common feed for pigs, and other livestock, in many countries in Asia.

Got ya, its sweet potato vines not white potato tops. Should have thought of

that it being where sweet potatoes are eaten instead of white.

Wanita