Re: What has happened to my gingered carrots?

[Guest guest]

At 07:09 PM 6/20/2002 +0000, you wrote:

>My gingered carrots have become slimy. Is this normal? Has anyone

>else experienced this? What could be the reason for this?

Other people have said the same thing, and my first batch of beets was

slimy (also got mold).

I changed my process a little: I'm now using a bit of kimchee juice and

vinegar in the mix -- to

slow down the other bacteria. My carrots are half Napa too, which speeds

things up. I had

no luck at all using whey -- granted it was from commercial yogurt: I think

the commercial

yogurt uses bacteria that make for a sweeter product, and for

lacto-fermenting you want

something nice and sour.

Heidi Schuppenhauer

Trillium Custom Software Inc.

heidis@...

[Guest guest]

Heidi,

I made some kimchi from your recipe last weekend. I threw in some radishes.

It turned out great. I'm going to make some more this weekend.

Thanks again,

Chris

> From: Heidi Schuppenhauer <heidis@...>

> Reply-

> Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 13:34:52 -0700

>

> Subject: Re: What has happened to my gingered carrots?

>

> At 07:09 PM 6/20/2002 +0000, you wrote:

>> My gingered carrots have become slimy. Is this normal? Has anyone

>> else experienced this? What could be the reason for this?

>

> Other people have said the same thing, and my first batch of beets was

> slimy (also got mold).

>

> I changed my process a little: I'm now using a bit of kimchee juice and

> vinegar in the mix -- to

> slow down the other bacteria. My carrots are half Napa too, which speeds

> things up. I had

> no luck at all using whey -- granted it was from commercial yogurt: I think

> the commercial

> yogurt uses bacteria that make for a sweeter product, and for

> lacto-fermenting you want

> something nice and sour.

>

>

> Heidi Schuppenhauer

> Trillium Custom Software Inc.

> heidis@...

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> >My gingered carrots have become slimy. Is this normal? Has

> >anyone

> >else experienced this? What could be the reason for this?

>

> Other people have said the same thing, and my first batch of

> beets was slimy (also got mold).

I don't know anything about this gingered carrot recipe, but I've

been making kefirkraut with excess kefir grains and shredded cabbage,

and the grains don't let any other critters grow in there during a

week of fermentation at room temperature. I've made sauerkraut with

cabbage and salt, and there was all sorts of black mold growing on

the surface. The final kraut was tasty, but I didn't trust it enough

to eat it raw. The kefirkraut stays amazingly " clean " during the

entire process, and I eat it raw with no worries.

[Guest guest]

> I changed my process a little: I'm now using a bit of kimchee juice

and

> vinegar in the mix -- to

> slow down the other bacteria.

So, it's okay to use raw apple cider vinegar when we are lacto-

fermenting? How does it affect the outcome of what you are lacto-

fermenting? Can you successfully ferment with raw apple cider

vinegar? Obviously the bacteria (there is bacteria in it, isn't

there, otherwise, how would it have turned into vinegar?) in it is

different, but still beneficial in it's own right, correct? What

would be the difference between lacto-fermentation and vinegar-

fermentation? Can the vinegar destroy the lacto bacteria? I have

heard so many mixed things about vinegar. What is your take on using

vinegar in the NT diet? What are the pro's and con's, etc.?

Peace and Love of Christ be with you,

Robin

[Guest guest]

--- In @y..., " givemeamomenttothink " <deweyli@e...>

> Obviously the bacteria (there is bacteria in it, isn't

> there, otherwise, how would it have turned into vinegar?) in it is

> different, but still beneficial in it's own right, correct?

There is bacteria in it if it's a raw vinegar. Yes, it's a

beneficial bacteria...at least to some extent.

> What

> would be the difference between lacto-fermentation and vinegar-

> fermentation?

They are different types of bacteria. Lacto fermentation is done

with lactobacilli; vinegar is converted using acetobacter... I'm no

microbiologist, so if the terminology is slightly off, don't kill

me. The point is there's bacteria that produce lactic acid, and

there's bacteria that produce acetic acid. Part of what makes kefir

so unique is that it contains multiple strains of both of these types

as well as others.

> Can the vinegar destroy the lacto bacteria?

I don't think so. The fact that they symbiotically co-exist in kefir

would suggest that they probably fill separate niches and can to some

degree actually benefit one another.

> I have heard so many mixed things about vinegar. What is your

> take on using vinegar in the NT diet? What are the pro's and

> con's, etc.?

If you've heard anything alarming, you can dismiss it as quackery.

Similarly, if you've heard anything miraculous, you can also dismiss

that as quackery. Vinegar is beneficial in that it can make food

taste better, help to preserve things by discouraging certain types

of micro-organisms. It also makes a good cleaner. It may improve

digestion slightly in certain cases. There may also be *some* role

for raw vinegar in maintaining healthy microflora; I'm not nearly as

sure of that as I am for things like fermented veggies and dairy.

If the claims get much more astounding than those, I'd suggest that

they're probably either the result of somebody trying to sell

something or somebody who likes a lot of sturm und drang in their

life.

Of course, people alternately call me both a dreamer and a cynic, so

take that for what it's worth. I guess today I'm a cynic. ;-)

[Guest guest]

At 09:59 PM 6/20/2002 +0000, you wrote:

>I don't know anything about this gingered carrot recipe, but I've

>been making kefirkraut with excess kefir grains and shredded cabbage,

>and the grains don't let any other critters grow in there during a

>week of fermentation at room temperature. I've made sauerkraut with

>cabbage and salt, and there was all sorts of black mold growing on

>the surface. The final kraut was tasty, but I didn't trust it enough

>to eat it raw. The kefirkraut stays amazingly " clean " during the

>entire process, and I eat it raw with no worries.

I used kefir juice to make salmon too, and it really is a good preserver. I

read a couple

of studies where they were using kefir against e-coli -- it did a good job

(but plain lactic

acid didn't). My only concern is gas -- the kefir gives off a lot of gas so

the " closed jar "

method won't work?

Heidi

[Guest guest]

At 10:30 PM 6/20/2002 +0000, you wrote:

>So, it's okay to use raw apple cider vinegar when we are lacto-

>fermenting? How does it affect the outcome of what you are lacto-

>fermenting? Can you successfully ferment with raw apple cider

>vinegar? Obviously the bacteria (there is bacteria in it, isn't

>there, otherwise, how would it have turned into vinegar?) in it is

>different, but still beneficial in it's own right, correct?

Apple cider vinegar has acetobacter, which are different, but they show up

in the later stages of fermenting, I believe. I've used raw cider vinegar, and

pastuerized rice vinegar -- I haven't found any difference, and I don't use

much (about a Tbls per quart of water, or a couple of shakes on a bowl

of cabbage). Just to raise the acid level a little. A bit of acid juice

from a previous

batch is probably better, because it has the right bacteria already in it.

I also boil the water first, if I'm using water, because there IS slimy stuff

in our water supply. The 'old' recipes all call for boiling the water and

letting

it cool. I suspect their water had stuff growing in it too. Bottled spring

water

is probably ok: well water, who knows.

Virtually all the " bad " bacteria hate acid. I learned this in winemaking --

wine can be really awful but even when it's bad it doesn't make you

sick, because it's too acid. And molds need oxygen. So no oxygen and some

acid and you are pretty safe.

One method I haven't tried though, is one recipe called for running some

cabbage (or other green vegie) through the blender, and using that in the

'starter water'. That gives you the bacteria and nutrients from the cabbage

without all the pounding -- and would likely help on the more solid vegies

like brussels sprouts, green beens etc.

> What

>would be the difference between lacto-fermentation and vinegar-

>fermentation? Can the vinegar destroy the lacto bacteria? I have

>heard so many mixed things about vinegar. What is your take on using

>vinegar in the NT diet? What are the pro's and con's, etc.?

I am making some vinegar -- and it's not that easy. I poured some live vinegar

into a bottle of wine and it sure didn't do much. Vinegar is made from

alchohol --

so you need to break down the carbs into booze first. Kefir actually has some

bacteria that do that: the kefir produces alchohol with one set of bacteria

or yeast, then

another set turn the alchohol into acetic acid. But with lactic

fermentation, you don't

have yeast involved, so not much alchohol, I think.

To really make vinegar you need a 'mother' (like kefir grains, only harder

to take

care of) and some good wine or cider. My first experiment sure tastes good

though!

As for using it on NT: anything you make yourself is probably better than what

you can buy, though vinegar is pretty basic.

The only caveat I have with it is that

my office-mate seems to get an MSG reaction when I use vinegar in soups (not

on salads), which might indicate the acetic acid does something or another

in relation

to meats. She gets really bad fibromyalgia pain from it. So now I'm using

kefir or beet

juice or lemon juice in soups. And, now that I have " real " fermented

vegies, I find I

LIKE them better than vinegar vegies, so maybe the lactic acid is more

sought-after

by our bodies than acetic acid.

You say you have heard " mixed things " . What kind of mixed things?

Heidi

[Guest guest]

At 01:42 PM 6/20/2002 -0700, you wrote:

>Heidi,

>

>I made some kimchi from your recipe last weekend. I threw in some radishes.

>It turned out great. I'm going to make some more this weekend.

>

>Thanks again,

>Chris

Thanks!

I keep recalling what Kyoko said on her site:

Make 4 heads of cabbage and you will have enough

for the whole week! Ha, I laughed at the time ...

Heidi Schuppenhauer

Trillium Custom Software Inc.

heidis@...

[Guest guest]

---One difference between Acetobacter " fermentation " and

Lactobacillus " fermentation " is the end product. As already noted,

Acetobacter sp. yield acetic acid(vinegar) whereas Lactobacillus sp.

yield lactic acid (not sure whether d or l but they are mirror images

of one another). According to the old chem book, lactic acid has an

asymmetric carbon atom. Therefore lactic acid molecules can be

optical isomers. Anywho, the Acetobacter " fermentation " process is

facultative aerobic, I think, whereas the carbohydrate fermentation

by yeast is an anaerobic process.. Dennis

In @y..., Heidi Schuppenhauer <heidis@t...> wrote:

> At 10:30 PM 6/20/2002 +0000, you wrote:

> >So, it's okay to use raw apple cider vinegar when we are lacto-

> >fermenting? How does it affect the outcome of what you are lacto-

> >fermenting? Can you successfully ferment with raw apple cider

> >vinegar? Obviously the bacteria (there is bacteria in it, isn't

> >there, otherwise, how would it have turned into vinegar?) in it is

> >different, but still beneficial in it's own right, correct?

>

> Apple cider vinegar has acetobacter, which are different, but they

show up

> in the later stages of fermenting, I believe. I've used raw cider

vinegar, and

> pastuerized rice vinegar -- I haven't found any difference, and I

don't use

> much (about a Tbls per quart of water, or a couple of shakes on a

bowl

> of cabbage). Just to raise the acid level a little. A bit of acid

juice

> from a previous

> batch is probably better, because it has the right bacteria already

in it.

>

> I also boil the water first, if I'm using water, because there IS

slimy stuff

> in our water supply. The 'old' recipes all call for boiling the

water and

> letting

> it cool. I suspect their water had stuff growing in it too. Bottled

spring

> water

> is probably ok: well water, who knows.

>

> Virtually all the " bad " bacteria hate acid. I learned this in

winemaking --

> wine can be really awful but even when it's bad it doesn't make you

> sick, because it's too acid. And molds need oxygen. So no oxygen and

some

> acid and you are pretty safe.

>

> One method I haven't tried though, is one recipe called for running

some

> cabbage (or other green vegie) through the blender, and using that

in the

> 'starter water'. That gives you the bacteria and nutrients from the

cabbage

> without all the pounding -- and would likely help on the more solid

vegies

> like brussels sprouts, green beens etc.

>

>

> > What

> >would be the difference between lacto-fermentation and vinegar-

> >fermentation? Can the vinegar destroy the lacto bacteria? I have

> >heard so many mixed things about vinegar. What is your take on

using

> >vinegar in the NT diet? What are the pro's and con's, etc.?

>

> I am making some vinegar -- and it's not that easy. I poured some

live vinegar

> into a bottle of wine and it sure didn't do much. Vinegar is made

from

> alchohol --

> so you need to break down the carbs into booze first. Kefir actually

has some

> bacteria that do that: the kefir produces alchohol with one set of

bacteria

> or yeast, then

> another set turn the alchohol into acetic acid. But with lactic

> fermentation, you don't

> have yeast involved, so not much alchohol, I think.

>

> To really make vinegar you need a 'mother' (like kefir grains, only

harder

> to take

> care of) and some good wine or cider. My first experiment sure

tastes good

> though!

> As for using it on NT: anything you make yourself is probably better

than what

> you can buy, though vinegar is pretty basic.

>

> The only caveat I have with it is that

> my office-mate seems to get an MSG reaction when I use vinegar in

soups (not

> on salads), which might indicate the acetic acid does something or

another

> in relation

> to meats. She gets really bad fibromyalgia pain from it. So now I'm

using

> kefir or beet

> juice or lemon juice in soups. And, now that I have " real " fermented

> vegies, I find I

> LIKE them better than vinegar vegies, so maybe the lactic acid is

more

> sought-after

> by our bodies than acetic acid.

>

> You say you have heard " mixed things " . What kind of mixed things?

>

>

>

>

> Heidi

[Guest guest]

> You say you have heard " mixed things " . What kind of mixed things?

I have heard that vinegar causes acid imbalance, and that it is a

healthy, restorative drink. I looked up as much information as I

could on raw vinegar but walked away just as confused as before I

started researching. Maybe there is some confusion between raw and

pasteurized vinegar and that is where the mixed messages were coming

in (what type of vinegar they were speaking about was not being

specified)? I don't know, but the three of you have given me more

information in your posts than what I had previously read. Thank you.

Peace and Love of Christ be with you,

Robin

[Guest guest]

---BTW my gingered carrots are inedible too or so it seems. They're

mighty acidic and have strong ginger flavor. They're color is

brilliant orange. What do you eat with the carrots? I think I used

too much ginger and too much (overly acidic) whey. Any thoughts?

Dennis

In @y..., " givemeamomenttothink " <deweyli@e...>

wrote:

> --- In @y..., Heidi Schuppenhauer <heidis@t...>

wrote:

>

> > You say you have heard " mixed things " . What kind of mixed things?

>

> I have heard that vinegar causes acid imbalance, and that it is a

> healthy, restorative drink. I looked up as much information as I

> could on raw vinegar but walked away just as confused as before I

> started researching. Maybe there is some confusion between raw and

> pasteurized vinegar and that is where the mixed messages were coming

> in (what type of vinegar they were speaking about was not being

> specified)? I don't know, but the three of you have given me more

> information in your posts than what I had previously read. Thank

you.

>

> Peace and Love of Christ be with you,

> Robin

[Guest guest]

At 04:58 PM 6/21/2002 +0000, you wrote:

>I have heard that vinegar causes acid imbalance, and that it is a

>healthy, restorative drink. I looked up as much information as I

>could on raw vinegar but walked away just as confused as before I

>started researching. Maybe there is some confusion between raw and

>pasteurized vinegar and that is where the mixed messages were coming

>in (what type of vinegar they were speaking about was not being

>specified)? I don't know, but the three of you have given me more

>information in your posts than what I had previously read. Thank you.

>

>Peace and Love of Christ be with you,

>Robin

I keep hearing that " eating too much acid will cause acid imbalance " and I

think that is just wrong. Our stomachs are really, really acidic -- much

more acidic than a little vinegar. As you get older, they get LESS acidic,

which is what actually causes a lot of indigestion and food poisoning and

such. But the stomach has a good regulating mechanism that usually works

pretty well, and unless you swallowed a lot of pure HCL I can't see how

there would be a problem. It seems that acidosis (unusually acid blood) can

be caused by a lot of things, but eating sour things doesn't seem to be on

the list.

If you eat too many acid fruits, however (oranges for instance) you CAN

damage your tooth enamel, which happened to my orange-addicted father!

Heidi Schuppenhauer

Trillium Custom Software Inc.

heidis@...

[Guest guest]

At 11:07 PM 6/21/2002 +0000, you wrote:

>---BTW my gingered carrots are inedible too or so it seems. They're

>mighty acidic and have strong ginger flavor. They're color is

>brilliant orange. What do you eat with the carrots? I think I used

>too much ginger and too much (overly acidic) whey. Any thoughts?

>Dennis

Next time don't let them go so long and add less ginger. My kimchi isn't

very sour, because I like

it not so sour and still crunchy so I only keep it out of the fridge for a

couple of days. But it can

be very sour. If you keep them at room temp for 2 days then transfer to the

fridge, the really

acid-producing bacteria won't start up.

But you can eat them with anything: on meat, on rice, on an omlette. Or if

they are TOO sour,

add them to some soup or the inside of the omlette, or to a stir-fry. You

will still get some good

vitamins, but not the probiotics, but it adds a GREAT flavor.

Heidi Schuppenhauer

Trillium Custom Software Inc.

heidis@...

[Guest guest]

I made my first batch of kimchi tonight. Hope all goes well. I noticed that

Heidi didn't mention putting whey in her recipe, although NT recipe does

include whey. I would think that with whey to innoculate the batch with

lactic acid bacteria that vinegar would not be necessary. I used whey, not

vinegar.

Peace,

Kris , gardening in northwest Ohio

----- Original Message -----

From: " givemeamomenttothink " <deweyli@...>

< >

Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 6:30 PM

Subject: Re: What has happened to my gingered carrots?

>

> > I changed my process a little: I'm now using a bit of kimchee juice

> and

> > vinegar in the mix -- to

> > slow down the other bacteria.

>

> So, it's okay to use raw apple cider vinegar when we are lacto-

> fermenting? How does it affect the outcome of what you are lacto-

> fermenting? Can you successfully ferment with raw apple cider

> vinegar? Obviously the bacteria (there is bacteria in it, isn't

> there, otherwise, how would it have turned into vinegar?) in it is

> different, but still beneficial in it's own right, correct? What

> would be the difference between lacto-fermentation and vinegar-

> fermentation? Can the vinegar destroy the lacto bacteria? I have

> heard so many mixed things about vinegar. What is your take on using

> vinegar in the NT diet? What are the pro's and con's, etc.?

>

> Peace and Love of Christ be with you,

> Robin

[Guest guest]

Heidi-

>I keep hearing that " eating too much acid will cause acid imbalance " and I

>think that is just wrong.

No kidding. It's quite like the idea that eating too much fat is the cause

of being fat.

-

[Guest guest]

> Heidi-

>

> >I keep hearing that " eating too much acid will cause acid

imbalance " and I

> >think that is just wrong.

>

> No kidding. It's quite like the idea that eating too much fat is

the cause

> of being fat.

>

>

>

>

> -

That was good! You got a chuckle out of me. It makes it seem quite

ridiculous when you put it that way. It was hard to figure out what

was true about vinegar, especially after reading NT where Sally

doesn't mention vinegar much, how it affects the diet, etc., and

doesn't even give you the option of using raw apple cider vinegar in

a recipe if you like that flavor. It left me feeling as though she

felt it wasn't that good for our diet (at least in fermenting) and

that maybe what I heard about vinegar was true. I was uncomfortable

with that idea though, considering that I would be using raw,

unfiltered apple cider vinegar and not pasteurized vinegar. The

clarification that everyone has given has been very helpful. Thank

you.

Peace and Love of Christ be with you,

Robin

[Guest guest]

At 11:45 PM 6/21/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>I made my first batch of kimchi tonight. Hope all goes well. I noticed that

>Heidi didn't mention putting whey in her recipe, although NT recipe does

>include whey. I would think that with whey to innoculate the batch with

>lactic acid bacteria that vinegar would not be necessary. I used whey, not

>vinegar.

>

>Peace,

>Kris , gardening in northwest Ohio

I tried whey, and it didn't work as well -- I made two batches side by side

and the whey one went slower and didn't taste quite as good, IMO. You don't

need vinegar -- most recipes for cabbage just use a little salt, but I use

it for my peace of mind and because some of the old recipes use it. The

cabbage has it's own bacteria, and I figure the cabbage-bacteria are more

adapted to cabbage than yogurt-bacteria are. But either works!

Heidi

[Guest guest]

Robin-

>It was hard to figure out what

>was true about vinegar, especially after reading NT where Sally

>doesn't mention vinegar much, how it affects the diet, etc., and

>doesn't even give you the option of using raw apple cider vinegar in

>a recipe if you like that flavor.

I could be wrong, but I think the reason there's so little mention of or

emphasis on vinegar in NT is that the WAPF is opposed to modern pickling

with vinegar and favors traditional pickling via fermentation, which

increases the nutrient availability of the food as well as providing

beneficial organisms for the digestive tract.

-

[Guest guest]

> I could be wrong, but I think the reason there's so little mention

of or

> emphasis on vinegar in NT is that the WAPF is opposed to modern

pickling

> with vinegar and favors traditional pickling via fermentation,

which

> increases the nutrient availability of the food as well as

providing

> beneficial organisms for the digestive tract.

And even raw apple cider vinegar can harm/affect fermentation? Can

you still successfully ferment even with the presence of the

vinegar? I'm not saying to use the vinegar in place of lacto-

fermentation, but is it a problem to use both together and still get

a good nutritious product?

Peace and Love of Christ be with you,

Robin

[Guest guest]

Robin-

>And even raw apple cider vinegar can harm/affect fermentation?

Oh, definitely -- more so than pasteurized, in fact, because pasteurized

vinegar will only affect the acidity and chemical composition of the

ferment whereas raw vinegar will add organisms, primarily acetobacter

bacteria, which will actually participate in the ferment. Many ferments

would be harmed by those bacteria because they have specific needs of their

own, but there's no reason you couldn't experiment by adding a a couple

spoonfuls of raw apple cider vinegar at the beginning. If you use a large

amount like you would in vinegar pickling, though, you'll probably prevent

all other organisms from doing anything.

-

[Guest guest]

> Robin-

>

> >And even raw apple cider vinegar can harm/affect fermentation?

>

> Oh, definitely -- more so than pasteurized, in fact, because

pasteurized

> vinegar will only affect the acidity and chemical composition of

the

> ferment whereas raw vinegar will add organisms, primarily

acetobacter

> bacteria, which will actually participate in the ferment. Many

ferments

> would be harmed by those bacteria because they have specific needs

of their

> own, but there's no reason you couldn't experiment by adding a a

couple

> spoonfuls of raw apple cider vinegar at the beginning. If you use

a large

> amount like you would in vinegar pickling, though, you'll probably

prevent

> all other organisms from doing anything.

>

>

>

>

> -

Oh, so we want to avoid having the bacteria competing with each other

and possibly canceling each other out? Can you successfully ferment

with just raw apple cider vinegar? Would that not produce the

desired affects that lacto-fermentation does (aside from flavor)?

What would the difference be? Why is lacto-fermentation favored over

vinegar fermentation? Is that just a matter of preference? Also,

someone mentioned that the reason kefir is so good is because of the

balance of those two acids in it, or am I remembering that wrong?

Couldn't the same be said for lacto-vinegar-fermentation? I don't

mean to make this complicated; I just need to get all this

information sorted out in my head. Thank you for your patience.

Peace and Love of Christ be with you,

Robin

[Guest guest]

Robin-

>Oh, so we want to avoid having the bacteria competing with each other

>and possibly canceling each other out?

Exactly. Different ferments require different organisms, and an

overabundance of the wrong ones can spoil the ferment. You wouldn't want

any acetobacteria to speak of in your yoghurt, for example, but they are a

necessary component of kefir. Pouring a ton of raw vinegar into most

ferments would probably affect the starting acidity and seed organism

population far too much for most ferments to be successful.

>What would the difference be? Why is lacto-fermentation favored over

>vinegar fermentation? Is that just a matter of preference?

Probably one reason is mere pragmatism: lacto-fermentation of dairy is an

excellent source of food and provides all the lacto-bacteria-rich whey you

could want but won't work with vinegar. Another may be that there are a

good deal more documented benefits from lacto-fermented foods (like

yoghurt) than from other fermented foods, though those other ferments may

well have an important place in the diet anyway. Another consideration is

probably the volume of particular foods one is likely to -- or should --

consume. Most people seem to do extremely well on large quantities of

dairy, at least provided it's raw and from grass-fed cows. Vegetable

ferments, by contrast, tend to serve better as condiments, eaten in small

quantities.

-

[Guest guest]

At 07:40 PM 6/22/2002 +0000, you wrote:

>Oh, so we want to avoid having the bacteria competing with each other

>and possibly canceling each other out?

I'm not going to try to know all the theory, but my dear great-grandma

always added 1 Tbs of vinegar per quart of water when making pickles. And

it was likely raw cider. Myself, I haven't noticed any difference between

raw and pastuerized.

> Can you successfully ferment

>with just raw apple cider vinegar? Would that not produce the

>desired affects that lacto-fermentation does (aside from flavor)?

The lacto-fermentation happens, for me, regardless. The added acidity seems

to make them less likely to mold is all. Vinegar bacteria eat mainly

alchohol, and there won't be alchohol unless there are yeast in the mix

(and then it would exist at a later stage).

>What would the difference be? Why is lacto-fermentation favored over

>vinegar fermentation?

Vinegar pickles aren't fermented at all: you just pour hot vinegar over the

vegies: no live bacteria at all after the heating. It's quick and easy and

stores well, so that's how most pickles are made. Lacto-fermented pickles

taste a whole lot better and they are probiotic, but they go soft after

long storage, need to be kept cold, and can develop cloudiness, so the

manufacturers don't use that method (but it's better for you). Adding a

little vinegar to the mix ISN'T the same as " hot vinegar pickles " , which

requires about half vinegar, half water.

> Is that just a matter of preference? Also,

>someone mentioned that the reason kefir is so good is because of the

>balance of those two acids in it, or am I remembering that wrong?

Kefir has lots of bacteria plus yeast, and makes all kinds of things

(including those two acids).

It likely is better for you, but it's trickier for making vegies because

there is so much gas produced.

I used it to make some pickles salmon though, and it was tasty.

>Couldn't the same be said for lacto-vinegar-fermentation? I don't

>mean to make this complicated; I just need to get all this

>information sorted out in my head. Thank you for your patience.

I think I mislead you. Adding a little vinegar is NOT

lacto-vinegar-fermentation. It's just an

insurance against slime and mold, by adding a little acid to the mix (lacto

bacteria like an

acidic environment, so they " get started " faster, and the vinegar inhibits

the other bacteria.

The bit of salt you add also helps in that regard).

Heidi Schuppenhauer

Trillium Custom Software Inc.

heidis@...

[Guest guest]

Most people seem to do extremely well on large quantities of

> dairy, at least provided it's raw and from grass-fed cows.

Vegetable

> ferments, by contrast, tend to serve better as condiments, eaten in

small

> quantities.

>

>

>

>

> -

So, you eat most of your raw vegetables unfermented? Do you eat most

of your vegetables raw? Which vegetables are not good to eat raw?

My dad said they used to eat raw potatoes when they were kids; that

just doesn't sound good to me, but who knows? I personally cannot

eat the cruciferous vegetables raw because of my thyroid problem. I

am working on correcting it and hopefully getting off my medication.

It seems to me that if our goal is to eat as much of our diet raw, as

is possible, (is that the goal?), fermented or unfermented, we don't

really need to be doing as much baking and cooking.

Also, aren't there some vegetables that actually become more

nutritious by cooking them?

Peace and Love of Christ be with you,

Robin

[Guest guest]

Robin-

>So, you eat most of your raw vegetables unfermented? Do you eat most

>of your vegetables raw? Which vegetables are not good to eat raw?

Actually, I don't eat a tremendous amount of vegetables, and while I think

animal foods (particularly dairy) probably do need to be eaten raw for the

maximal benefit, I'm not at all convinced that everything in the vegetable

kingdom is likewise best raw. Vegetables contain antinutrients to help

them survive; animals mostly stuck with things like speed and sharp teeth

and occasionally dedicated separate poison glands. In some cases cooking

eliminates or reduces the antinutrient burden, so I'd never eat spinach

raw, I'd saute it in lots of butter. In fact, that's how I eat most of my

vegetables: sauteed in butter, sometimes with cheese too. I also avoid all

cruciferous vegetables (despite my love for good saurkraut) because of my

thyroid problem.

>My dad said they used to eat raw potatoes when they were kids; that

>just doesn't sound good to me, but who knows?

Potatoes are kind of a different ball of wax. Because I need to lose

weight, I don't eat any starchy foods like potatoes and bread. There are

also some fairly persuasive arguments that starchy foods are bad for the

gut and ultimately cause many gut-related problems, whether or not it's

immediately obvious that they do trace back to digestive impairment. But I

sure wish I could eat all the potatoes I want, because there are fewer more

delicious foods.

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