Re: Study about Holsteins vs. Jerseys

[Guest guest]

Hi Bonnie in NC:

Thanks for showing us that the nutritional value of milk is not the

main issue for milk producers. Profitability, however, of course, is

the main issue. Reducing nutrition to increase profitability would

make sense to most milk producers.

Chi

[Guest guest]

> Thanks for showing us that the nutritional value of milk is not the

> main issue for milk producers. Profitability, however, of course,

> is the main issue. Reducing nutrition to increase profitability

> would make sense to most milk producers.

It should make sense to them...it's their job. If the public wants

cheap milk and doesn't care about nutrition, the farmer shouldn't be

expected to forego saving for college for their kids, a new car,

carpet for the living room or whatever just so that they can provide

a product that's better than what the public demands.

The consumers are both the victims and the perpetrators. They've

been victimized by academia and marketing. However, they're also

ultimately the one's responsible for the bill of non-goods that's

been sold to them. The farmers have been caught in between. Luckily

things have been starting to come full-circle and the farmers are

starting to find that many of the semi-heirloom breeds such as

jerseys, guernsey's, brown swiss, canadienne, even dexters and saler

*can* produce a higher ROI on quality pasture than do the high

producers in a confinement system. The total revenue is still higher

in a confinement operation, but the ROI is usually lower. ...and

quite importantly for the small farmers, the sweat investment is

lower in a pastured heirloom or semi-heirloom operation too, which

gives them more time with their families and their herds and less

time in the fields on tractors.

It's always up to the consumer to pay the price necessary to get the

type of product they really want. To ask the producers to deliver

product qualities that the consumer doesn't *value* enough to pay

for, is to ask the producer to live a life of poverty so that their

consumers can live happy healthy lives while grinding those who feed

them into the dirt.

That's why people like us are important. It's those of us who

recognize the value of healthy soil, healthy animals, and reduced

toxin usage that are helping to create a premium market for premium

production. ...and the more people we convince that a glass of

*good* milk *should* cost more than a glass of coca cola, the

stronger that market will become.

[Guest guest]

At 03:12 PM 6/26/2002 +0000, you wrote:

>. Luckily

>things have been starting to come full-circle and the farmers are

>starting to find that many of the semi-heirloom breeds such as

>jerseys, guernsey's, brown swiss, canadienne, even dexters and saler

>*can* produce a higher ROI on quality pasture than do the high

>producers in a confinement system.

Longhorns are coming back too. They are an heirloom breed that

really hasn't been bred much -- the Spanish brought them over in the

1600's or so and they lived wild. They are really tough, smart, and

do well in rather nasty conditions, so it's really easy for the farmer

to raise them. And the meat is SOOOO much better than anything

else I've eaten (IMO). We have gotten rather addicted to it. It's

also the only meat I've ever had that is really tender even when

barely cooked.

(I don't think they are good milkers though!).

Heidi

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/26/02 6:57:53 AM Central Daylight Time,

ynos@... writes:

> Hi Bonnie in NC:

> Thanks for showing us that the nutritional value of milk is not the

> main issue for milk producers. Profitability, however, of course, is

> the main issue. Reducing nutrition to increase profitability would

> make sense to most milk producers.

> Chi

>

I really object to the tone of your post. Today was spent in the annual

meeting of the Tennessee Milk Producer's Association. We were told about new

regulations for " confinement " animals, I shrugged at first until I heard what

they consider confinement. The time goats spend in the stalls at night or

even the 20-30 minutes the cows spend in the barnlot waiting to be milked and

let out again. The cost for this? Well, there is a plan that needs to be

written, arial photos to be taken, water studies...they estimate about

$146,000 for the average dairy. We are not that large, probably will fall

through the cracks but yes, the average dairy person making $1 a gallon for

milk is out to make a profit. Unfortunately they rarely do.

Belinda

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/26/02 6:13:11 PM Central Daylight Time,

ynos@... writes:

> Hi Belinda:

> Why?

> Chi

At an average of $1 a gallon the farmer doesn't make much of a profit.

Belinda

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/26/02 7:21:11 PM Central Daylight Time,

ynos@... writes:

> Hi Belinda:

> The farmer I buy milk from charges $2 per litre, that's about $9.08

> per imperial gallon. That's about $7.26 per USgallon or about US$4.84

> per USgallon. I tell him he isn't charging enough. Locally, organic

> pasteurized milk from holsteins on grass is $2.69 per litre in

> regular stores.

> So produce milk for Weston Price type nutrition and charge more for

> it. It's my opinion that under the current system of bulk yield

> production, the farmer will never win. Changing the system to

> production of low yield, high nutrition is the only chance the farmer

> has.

> Chi

>

And until the laws change in Tennessee to allow farmers to sell milk from

their farm they should do what? Dig ditches? Knit sweaters? You make this

sound so simple but having spend a day talking to dairy farmers who have

contracts with " the big boys " and you might realize the risk they'd take

selling off the farm against the law and against the contract.

Belinda

[Guest guest]

> It should make sense to them...it's their job. If the

> public wants cheap milk and doesn't care about nutrition,

> the farmer shouldn't be expected to forego saving for

> college for their kids, a new car, carpet for the living room

> or whatever just so that they can provide a product that's

> better than what the public demands.

Hi :

A company that sells cars may sell a cheap model, a mid-priced model

and a high-priced model. It's up to the consumer to determine which

model is the best value for the dollar.

Do you know any farmers that sell cheap milk, mid-priced milk and

high-priced milk?

> and the farmers are starting to find that many of the

> semi-heirloom breeds such as jerseys, guernsey's, brown swiss,

> canadienne, even dexters and saler

The farmer that I buy milk from mentioned that some people had been

crossing canadienne with brown swiss. In his opinion, that ruined the

canadienne.

> It's always up to the consumer to pay the price necessary

> to get the type of product they really want.

> To ask the producers to deliver product qualities that the

> consumer doesn't *value* enough to pay for, is to ask

> the producer to live a life of poverty so that their consumers

> can live happy healthy lives while grinding those who feed

> them into the dirt.

If farmers aren't rich now, maybe they sould be doing something

different in a capitalist society.

> That's why people like us are important. It's those of us who

> recognize the value of healthy soil, healthy animals, and reduced

> toxin usage that are helping to create a premium market for premium

> production. ...and the more people we convince that a glass of

> *good* milk *should* cost more than a glass of coca cola, the

> stronger that market will become.

Yep, I keep trying to get my farmer to increase his prices for his

products. I haven't got him to raise the price of milk from $2 per

litre yet, but he has raised the price of butter from $7 per pound to

$7.50 and to $8 in the last two years. I am sure you are doing the

same with the farmer you buy milk from.

Chi

[Guest guest]

> I really object to the tone of your post.

Hi Belinda:

Why?

Chi

[Guest guest]

>>>>>>>>Yep, I keep trying to get my farmer to increase his prices for his

products. I haven't got him to raise the price of milk from $2 per

litre yet, but he has raised the price of butter from $7 per pound to

$7.50 and to $8 in the last two years.

********Hmmmm....this makes me wonder - what *are* people paying for milk

and butter?

i pay $3.75 per 1/2 gal. goat's milk wholesale (pastured in season). this

just went up from $3.50. the farmer said he hadn't raised his prices in 3

years. i don't mind paying it - it's one of the healthiest (and yummiest)

things in my diet and i will pay what he determines it's worth. in the

market his 1/2 gallons cost $4-5.

and i pay $3 per half gallon jersey milk retail (pastured but fed 9 lbs. of

grain per day). i *can* get a *gallon* of fresh raw cow's milk from another

local farm for something like $2.50, but after viewing some of the husbandry

practices, opt not to buy from them.

my health is in part dependent on the goat milk farmer, since his product is

a staple of my diet. if he keeps raising his price, i will keep paying. but

i hope he's not on this list or he might start charging more next week! <g>

Suze Fisher

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

[Guest guest]

> At an average of $1 a gallon the farmer doesn't make

> much of a profit.

Hi Belinda:

The farmer I buy milk from charges $2 per litre, that's about $9.08

per imperial gallon. That's about $7.26 per USgallon or about US$4.84

per USgallon. I tell him he isn't charging enough. Locally, organic

pasteurized milk from holsteins on grass is $2.69 per litre in

regular stores.

So produce milk for Weston Price type nutrition and charge more for

it. It's my opinion that under the current system of bulk yield

production, the farmer will never win. Changing the system to

production of low yield, high nutrition is the only chance the farmer

has.

Chi

[Guest guest]

Hi,

Where do you buy Longhorn beef?

Jafa

--- Heidi Schuppenhauer <heidis@...>

wrote:

> At 03:12 PM 6/26/2002 +0000, you wrote:

> >. Luckily

> >things have been starting to come full-circle and

> the farmers are

> >starting to find that many of the semi-heirloom

> breeds such as

> >jerseys, guernsey's, brown swiss, canadienne, even

> dexters and saler

> >*can* produce a higher ROI on quality pasture than

> do the high

> >producers in a confinement system.

>

> Longhorns are coming back too. They are an heirloom

> breed that

> really hasn't been bred much -- the Spanish brought

> them over in the

> 1600's or so and they lived wild. They are really

> tough, smart, and

> do well in rather nasty conditions, so it's really

> easy for the farmer

> to raise them. And the meat is SOOOO much better

> than anything

> else I've eaten (IMO). We have gotten rather

> addicted to it. It's

> also the only meat I've ever had that is really

> tender even when

> barely cooked.

>

> (I don't think they are good milkers though!).

>

>

> Heidi

>

>

>

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

At 10:29 PM 6/26/2002 -0700, you wrote:

>Hi,

>

>Where do you buy Longhorn beef?

>

>Jafa

There is a distributor in Seattle, Mondo's Meats, that will order it, and

that's

where I get it. It is a wholesale place, so you have to order a quarter or half

and wait til someone orders the other half. It is very, very reasonable

that way:

I pay about $2 a lb (it varies), and it is already cut and shrink-wrapped.

I got

the bones and fat too, this time, to make broth and tallow.

But there are farmers all over the country that sell it: you can

find them listed if you do a web search.

Suzie at Mondo's says the Longhorn are sort of grain-finished -- they tried

to fatten them up but the Longhorn don't like to eat grain. They are kept

penned for a few weeks before butchering though. I'm not clear on the

current state of affairs now. But it's decidedly not the usual store-bought

meat. The families that I've shared it with have gotten pretty addicted.

Heidi Schuppenhauer

Trillium Custom Software Inc.

heidis@...

[Guest guest]

> Do you know any farmers that sell cheap milk, mid-priced milk and

> high-priced milk?

Consumers haven't asked for it in great enough numbers for there to

be any kind of market for that kind of product differentiation. To

date the consumers have only asked for different milk fat percentages

and organic, and hormone free distinctions. When the consumers get a

clue and ask for high nutrition milk...and are willing to pay for it,

they'll get it. There's only a few high-quality producers today,

because there are few consumers who will buy their products.

> The farmer that I buy milk from mentioned that some people had been

> crossing canadienne with brown swiss. In his opinion, that ruined

> the canadienne.

That may very well be the case. That's why I referred to that list

of breeds as semi-heirloom. They've been changed for production, but

every one of them is closer to the ideal than holsteins are.

> If farmers aren't rich now, maybe they sould be doing something

> different in a capitalist society.

Where's the capitalist society? Certainly not here. This is a mixed

economy...meaning that the government steps in wherever possible to

short-circuit the market feedback mechanisms and render the economy

dependent on its interventions. Farming is totally screwed up thanks

to the myriad subsidies that pay large farmers and penalize small

farmers. The government will pay you to *not* produce, and it will

pay you to produce an inferior high-volume product.

At any rate, I agree that some farmers should get out of the

business. Those who want to simply run a volume production, but

don't have the business skills and/or capital to make it happen are

simply doomed. However, there's also a large contingent of farmers

who are hanging on in hopes that the consumer will eventually come

around and start asking again for old-fashioned high quality farm

produce. Hopefully they will eventually come around, so that the

farmers who care can *afford* to deliver the product that they'd

rather deliver anyway...assuming that the big processing corporations

haven't successfully co-opted the legal system to the point that

there's no legal option for the small farmers to be able to market

their superior product. It's very close to that point now here in

Minnesota.

> Yep, I keep trying to get my farmer to increase his prices for his

> products. I haven't got him to raise the price of milk from $2 per

> litre yet, but he has raised the price of butter from $7 per pound

> to $7.50 and to $8 in the last two years. I am sure you are doing

> the same with the farmer you buy milk from.

The farmers (co-op) that I buy my butter from sells their butter for

US$5.00 per pound. It's pastured with a small grain supplement.

They're working on their fertility. Their fertility is still not

quite where they want to be (their soil is still a bit too low in

calcium), but they're making progress... They're not certified

organic, but they don't use much (if anything) in the way of

chemicals. At any rate, I actually feel that their product is priced

pretty close to correctly...

The farmer that I buy my milk from is very similar to the co-op that

produces my butter. I don't get my milk raw (at least not yet), but

I pay just under US$6.00/US gallon. Again, I think that's priced

pretty close to correctly for what the product is. I haven't found

an ideal source of either milk or butter yet, but when I do I'd

expect to pay about US$6-8/gallon for milk and about US$5-7/pound for

the butter.

[Guest guest]

> And until the laws change in Tennessee to allow farmers

> to sell milk from their farm they should do what? Dig ditches?

> Knit sweaters? You make this sound so simple but having spend

> a day talking to dairy farmers who have contracts with

> " the big boys " and you might realize the risk they'd take

> selling off the farm against the law and against the contract.

Hi Belinda:

When do you expect the laws to change in Tennessee to allow farmers

to sell milk from their farm? Do you expect them to change during

your lifetime? Are you being held in Tennessee against your will?

Farmers might consider going into the boarding business. If people

buy cows or goats so that they can get access to higher nutrition,

these people would need a place to board the cow or goat. A farmer

might charge them for room and board, and, if necessary, for milking

the animal for the owners. These farmers would not be selling milk

from their farms, they would just be providing a service to the

owners of the cow or goat. No money would change hands for milk or

milk products, money would only change hands for room and board for

the animal and for any services provided by the farmer. A well

thought out arrangement may actually be better financially for the

farmer than actually owning cows or goats and producing milk under

the current system.

Chi

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/27/02 4:37:11 PM Central Daylight Time,

ynos@... writes:

> Hi Belinda:

> When do you expect the laws to change in Tennessee to allow farmers

> to sell milk from their farm?

Yes, and I am working to change them.

Do you expect them to change during > your lifetime?

I sure hope so as I will be wanting my butter, cream and milk even after I no

longer wish to keep the family cow or goat.

Are you being held in Tennessee against your will?

What's that got to do with anything? Owning over 100 acres does tend to tie

one down.

>

> Farmers might consider going into the boarding business. If people

> buy cows or goats so that they can get access to higher nutrition,

> these people would need a place to board the cow or goat. A farmer

> might charge them for room and board, and, if necessary, for milking

> the animal for the owners. These farmers would not be selling milk

> from their farms, they would just be providing a service to the

> owners of the cow or goat. No money would change hands for milk or

> milk products, money would only change hands for room and board for

> the animal and for any services provided by the farmer. A well

> thought out arrangement may actually be better financially for the

> farmer than actually owning cows or goats and producing milk under

> the current system.

> Chi

>

>

Chi, These are all wonderful ideas and I'm sure there are small dairy farmers

quietly doing just that. The owners of 200-700 milkers can't just stop

milking for the contract folks one day and hope to sell or lease all those

cows the next. Idealism is fine but it is reality that pays the bank loan.

I agree that many don't charge enough for their farm products. We have had an

apprentice here and after her first experience making butter she figured the

price should be at least $8. The time spent milking, separating cream,

washing and paddling the butter even at $8 a pound the farmer's not making

much for their time.

Belinda

[Guest guest]

-

>It's always up to the consumer to pay the price necessary to get the

>type of product they really want. To ask the producers to deliver

>product qualities that the consumer doesn't *value* enough to pay

>for, is to ask the producer to live a life of poverty so that their

>consumers can live happy healthy lives while grinding those who feed

>them into the dirt.

Of course, but the producers who dupe consumers into thinking there's no

nutritional difference and that nutrition isn't a factor along with price

in choosing production methods bear a large share of the

responsibility. Consumers don't have the organized financial and political

power to easily oppose such actions.

-

[Guest guest]

> Are you being held in Tennessee against your will?

> What's that got to do with anything?

> Owning over 100 acres does tend to tie one down.

Hi Belinda:

If you can't bear the situation in Tennessee, you can sell and buy in

another state.

> Chi, These are all wonderful ideas and I'm sure there

> are small dairy farmers quietly doing just that.

> The owners of 200-700 milkers can't just stop milking for the

> contract folks one day and hope to sell or lease all those

> cows the next. Idealism is fine but it is reality that pays the

> bank loan.

I would never suggest a big or small farmer make a sudden change that

would cost the farmer the farm. I would suggest the place to start

for a large producer would be to have one cow outside the regular

herd for the farmer's family. This cow should not be a high volume

producer, but rather a high nutrition producer. I would suggest the

cow should be fed on pasture or hay with no grain supplements and the

soil fertility in the pasture for this animal should be tested and

perhaps supplemented. I would think any farmer would be concerned

with the nutrition his own family gets and wouldn't want to subject

them to the dairy products for the masses.

Chi