Re: New/Introduction

[Guest guest]

Hello all,

I've been lurking some for a little while now. I first learned of

Nourishing Traditions through a doctor I saw for a neck injury I

incurred last summer. He told me I was to alkaline, etc. and needed to

deal with my chemical imbalances before my neck would heal properly. He

was concerned about my diet, as I have been a vegetarian for 10 years

and the last 3 of which I was a raw food vegan heading into

fruitarianism. He also found that I was estrogen dominate, which could

explain the 2 abnormal paps I've had. Then to top it all off I got

pregnant unexpectedly and I am due in October. My midwife is after me

to eat more grains, because I rarely eat them and she's worried that I

don't get enough protein. She's into the traditional food pyramid way

of eating. Therefore, I'm really trying to relearn about a healthy

diet, as obviously the one I was on didn't work for health. I lost a

lot of weight though, but since I started to change my eating habits

I've gained back a lot of it, plus I'm gaining weight because of the

baby. I haven't gotten to the point that I can sit down and eat a steak

or anything like that, but I am trying to add protein sources into my

diet by way of organic cottage cheese, tuna, free-range eggs and organic

ground turkey added to recipes (last night we had chili), I started

using organic butter and I do have canned coconut milk by THAI Kitchen,

but I'm not really sure how to use it. I've added it to pineapple when

I cut one up and have recently ordered their recipe suggestions. I also

need to buy my own copy of NT, as I borrowed it from the library. What

is a RAFer? Any advice or help would be GREATLY appreciated!!

Robin Leuenberger,

from northern Michigan, married to Jeff and unschooling mother of 5

(going on 6).

P.S. I also noticed there is another Robin on this list. Hopefully, we

won't get mixed-up.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/21/2002 12:24:16 PM Central Daylight Time,

scott@... writes:

> I'm sure you're familiar with omega 3 fats and the fact that fish

> such as tuna and wild caught (such as alaskan) salmon are good

> sources. Eggs can be a good source too, but most grocery store eggs

> (including free range and organic) are fed grain-based vegetarian

> rations that don't supply the chickens with any omega 3 fats. The

> resulting eggs are therefore deficient. *Pastured* chickens produce

> eggs that are much more nutritious and have lots of omega 3. You can

> find suppliers of pastured eggs, poultry and even dairy on

> eatwild.com too. Also, high omega fat foods should be heated as

> little as possible so as to avoid damage to the fatty acid molecules

> from the heat...they're very fragile that way.

>

Hey ,

I think you have the egg thing backwards. Free range chickens go for their

own food, they are free to range and find it. Pastured chickens will often

need some sort of grain as a suppliment in their diet as they are in cages

and not able to run around.

Belinda

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

From: <Nest4Robin@...>

> What

> is a RAFer? Any advice or help would be GREATLY appreciated!!

RAF=Raw Animal Food. We're like raw vegans, only not vegans. This is not an

RAF list, but the Weston A. Price foundation does recommend regular (but not

exclusive) consumption of raw foods, including meat, and there are several

people here who consume mostly or exclusively raw meat.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/21/2002 1:08:53 PM Central Daylight Time,

scott@... writes:

> At any rate, if I can get a truly free chicken from a farm, that'll

> be my first choice every time. If I have to choose between a chicken

> that's labelled " free range " and chicken that's pastured, though,

> I'll take pastured every time.

>

>

Oh well, I label ours " free range " they have an acre and the ones who have

found the hole in the fence have many acres so long as the hawks don't find

them. We were going to try the little cages moving around the pasture thing

but it is very labor intensive and our goats thought the cage was a

trampoline just for them. The chickens were a bit upset. The pastured is good

for broilers tho. They can't run around and get muscles and tough.

Belinda

[Guest guest]

Robin,

Welcome. I am so glad you are eating more animal protein during this pregnancy.

Were you vegan during your other five pregnancies? If so, your body is probably

quite depleted of many nutrients. Remember that the baby takes priority, and

that your own body will suffer (calcium loss, e.g.). I don't speak from

experience (no children yet), but I have been switching over to NT slowly mainly

because I want my body to be ready when (and if) I decide to have children.

Make sure you get the thai kitchen coconut milk in the small can--it has no

additives at all. I like to add half a can of coco. milk to a banana, an egg,

some yogurt, some cream, and pineapple juice for a " pina colada " smoothie in the

morning. Delicious and filling.

----- Original Message -----

From: Nest4Robin@...

Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 8:40 AM

Subject: Re: New/introduction

Hello all,

I've been lurking some for a little while now. I first learned of

Nourishing Traditions through a doctor I saw for a neck injury I

incurred last summer. He told me I was to alkaline, etc. and needed to

deal with my chemical imbalances before my neck would heal properly. He

was concerned about my diet, as I have been a vegetarian for 10 years

and the last 3 of which I was a raw food vegan heading into

fruitarianism. He also found that I was estrogen dominate, which could

explain the 2 abnormal paps I've had. Then to top it all off I got

pregnant unexpectedly and I am due in October. My midwife is after me

to eat more grains, because I rarely eat them and she's worried that I

don't get enough protein. She's into the traditional food pyramid way

of eating. Therefore, I'm really trying to relearn about a healthy

diet, as obviously the one I was on didn't work for health. I lost a

lot of weight though, but since I started to change my eating habits

I've gained back a lot of it, plus I'm gaining weight because of the

baby. I haven't gotten to the point that I can sit down and eat a steak

or anything like that, but I am trying to add protein sources into my

diet by way of organic cottage cheese, tuna, free-range eggs and organic

ground turkey added to recipes (last night we had chili), I started

using organic butter and I do have canned coconut milk by THAI Kitchen,

but I'm not really sure how to use it. I've added it to pineapple when

I cut one up and have recently ordered their recipe suggestions. I also

need to buy my own copy of NT, as I borrowed it from the library. What

is a RAFer? Any advice or help would be GREATLY appreciated!!

Robin Leuenberger,

from northern Michigan, married to Jeff and unschooling mother of 5

(going on 6).

P.S. I also noticed there is another Robin on this list. Hopefully, we

won't get mixed-up.

[Guest guest]

> I think you have the egg thing backwards. Free range chickens go

for their

> own food, they are free to range and find it. Pastured chickens

will often

> need some sort of grain as a suppliment in their diet as they are

in cages

> and not able to run around.

You'd think so, but the language of business means otherwise. The

eggs that are allowed to be labelled " free range " can be (and usually

are) from chickens that have never set foot in anything that could be

called pasture. In fact, they aren't free to *range* at all; they're

only free to move around in a larger outdoor confined space...that

doesn't include pasture or many bugs. Forage and insects rarely

comprise a significant portion of the chickens diet when you're

dealing with commercially produced " free range " chickens. All free

range means when it's stamped on an egg carton or a chicken package

is that the bird was able to run around outside...not that it was

able to go where it wants or that it has access to anything but a

mixed ration feed.

Pastured chickens on the other hand, are indeed often in portable

enclosures...some are small, some are not depending on the

design...but the chickens are actually in a pasture and able to

forage for their food naturally. One farm I know that " pastures "

their chickens actually uses a fairly large greenhouse-style chicken

coop on skids. They are able to move it around to the pasure that

their jerseys have just finished with.

Those who are lucky enough to have a farm or to have access to a

small poultry farmer might be able have the best of both worlds and

get chickens that are able to run around and find their food wherever

they happen to find it. Unfortunately that simply *never* happens in

operations that are run for profit.

You're right too that pastured chickens are usually supplemented with

grain. However, since they're not ruminants, I'm not at all sure

that's such a bad thing.

At any rate, if I can get a truly free chicken from a farm, that'll

be my first choice every time. If I have to choose between a chicken

that's labelled " free range " and chicken that's pastured, though,

I'll take pastured every time.

[Guest guest]

-

>You're right too that pastured chickens are usually supplemented with

>grain. However, since they're not ruminants, I'm not at all sure

>that's such a bad thing.

Why is it you think it might be good because they're not ruminants? As far

as I can tell, it's bad for that reason, not vice versa.

-

[Guest guest]

> Why is it you think it might be good because they're not

ruminants? As far

> as I can tell, it's bad for that reason, not vice versa.

Well, I don't think it's a *good* thing for them to get *some*...more

like a neutral thing. I don't consider it a problem for them (as

opposed to ruminants) because they can digest it. They're not as

dietarily specialized as ruminants are; they're natural diet includes

whatever they find that they can swallow...like many birds, that

would often include grains. As long as the bulk of their diet comes

from pasture, I'm really not going to get worked up if they're

getting some supplemental grain to supply some extra calories. I

figure the 80/20 rule has to apply to livestock as much as it does to

us.

The problem for ruminants with that 20% being grain is that it

disturbs their whole digestive system. That doesn't seem to be much

of a problem for chickens.

[Guest guest]

> but it is very labor intensive and our goats thought the cage was a

> trampoline just for them. The chickens were a bit upset.

That's certainly an entertaining image! :-)

[Guest guest]

Thanks, I've heard of this before. It may take me sometime to get to

that point. I haven't even been able to eat a piece of cooked meat yet,

let alone raw meat. I did read about a man that experienced great

healing once he incorporated raw meats into his diet. I'll have to see

if I can find the article again, it was very good. I think my problem

is purely psychological concerning meats though.

Thanks!

Robin

<<RAF=Raw Animal Food. We're like raw vegans, only not vegans. This is

not an RAF list, but the Weston A. Price foundation does recommend

regular (but not exclusive) consumption of raw foods, including meat,

and there are several people here who consume mostly or exclusively raw

meat.>>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

No, for the first 3 pregnancies I was a meat eater, but a SAD

eater. My 2nd child has Noonan Syndrome and a heart defect

(www.noonansyndrome.org). For the last two I was a vegetarian, I still

ate cooked food and did have some cheese once in awhile. I think they

call them lacto- something vegetarians. It was after baby #5 (who I had

pneumonia with during the pregnancy), that I became vegan (he turned 5

y/o last Sunday). For the past 3 years up until the end of February

when I saw the doctor that recommended NT, I was a raw food vegan and

for 10 months of that I would've labeled myself fruitarian. I still

like to eat a lot of fruit. However, after fasting a few different

times (once for 40 days with diluted organic orange juice) and following

all the advice of Natural Hygienic raw foodist. My neck still hasn't

healed and I've had 2 abnormal paps. Tests have also shown I'm low in

potassium, etc. Therefore, I decided that something must be wrong with

my diet and so I was willing to check into NT when Dr. Todd recommended

it to me. I'm really hoping that I'll find true health.

Your recipe sounds delicious!! I'll have to try it...thanks!

I wish you all the best in the preparation of becoming pregnant

yourself someday.

Be well,

Robin

<<Welcome. I am so glad you are eating more animal protein during this

pregnancy. Were you vegan during your other five pregnancies? If so,

your body is probably quite depleted of many nutrients. Remember that

the baby takes priority, and that your own body will suffer (calcium

loss, e.g.). I don't speak from experience (no children yet), but I have

been switching over to NT slowly mainly because I want my body to be

ready when (and if) I decide to have children. Make sure you get the

thai kitchen coconut milk in the small can--it has no additives at all.

I like to add half a can of coco. milk to a banana, an egg, some yogurt,

some cream, and pineapple juice for a " pina colada " smoothie in the

morning. Delicious and filling.

>>

[Guest guest]

>From: Nest4Robin@...

>Thanks, I've heard of this before. It may take me sometime to get to

>that point. I haven't even been able to eat a piece of cooked meat yet,

>let alone raw meat.

If you're not used to eating cooked meat, you might as well start by eating

it raw. It's a bit hard to describe, but raw meat has a much fresher taste

than it does when cooked, and retains more of the moisture. Except for

psychological issues, someone used to eating mostly fruits and vegetables

should be right at home with raw meat.

>I did read about a man that experienced great

>healing once he incorporated raw meats into his diet.

Aajonous Vonderplanitz?

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[Guest guest]

-

>The problem for ruminants with that 20% being grain is that it

>disturbs their whole digestive system. That doesn't seem to be much

>of a problem for chickens.

True, but at the same time, chickens, not being ruminants, are going to act

as concentrators of those unsaturated oils found in grains. Grain-fed beef

is bad, but I'd take it over grain-fed chicken (and grain-fed pork) any day

of the week.

-

[Guest guest]

> and few between. Is tuna in the can considered raw meat (if you

> don't cook it), or is it pre-cooked at canning?

Unfortunately, it's pre-cooked. :-( I suspect it's better than

nothing though...and probably better than salmon patties are too.

> The eggs I buy come from a family that owns chickens and sells

> their eggs. I see their chickens scratching around all the time in

> their yard. Therefore, I consider them free-range. I'll have to

> ask if they feed them grains too.

Sounds like a great source. I'd definitely stick with them.

> Thanks, I am aware of the omega 3. I think that may be one reason

> why the eggs I buy vs. grocery store eggs taste better and don't

> leave

> that after taste or egg burps one gets with store bought eggs.

> What do

> you think?

It's certainly possible. Freshness might also be a large part of the

difference. Eggs from the store are often quite old.

> I've been taking Bio-Glycozyme Forte per my doctor's

> recommendation, because I am low in B vitamins and I'm sure he was

> worried about my getting these from food sources, since I haven't

> eaten

> meat or liver in so many years. I remember when I was pregnant

> with my

> first, I ate liver and onions just about ever other night. My

> family

> was sick of it!

The supplement is good since you're lacking the liver/meat sources.

It would be good if you could get back to getting your nutrition from

food though...

> Doesn't

> magnesium and potassium go hand in hand, so to speak? My tests do

> show I'm low in potassium and I was given a list of high potassium

> food by my doctor.

They do go somewhat hand in hand. If you're following a reliable

pottasium list, you'll probably be ok for magnesium too.

> Thanks , I hate keeping journals, but I did do it for my

> midwife years ago. Therefore, I suppose it wouldn't kill me to do it

> again. I do think I need some help in correcting my diet and

> regaining health, especially now that I'm pregnant again. I did

> pick up my own copy of NT last night when we went to Traverse

> City. Jeff got it for me as part of my birthday, 39 today.

Happy birthday! NT is a great step! My wife didn't eat red meat

(never really had) until I got NT and started working on her a bit.

Go for tender cuts at first. It helps psychologically if you don't

have to chew it for 10 minutes. Anyway, let me know if you get the

journal going and want me to take a look at it. I'm only following

the list sporadically at the moment. You could email me directly at

scott @ kroyer . com (remove the spaces).

Good luck!

[Guest guest]

> True, but at the same time, chickens, not being ruminants, are

> going to act

> as concentrators of those unsaturated oils found in grains.

> Grain-fed beef is bad, but I'd take it over grain-fed chicken (and

> grain-fed pork) any day

> of the week.

True, but you're much more concerned about omega 6 than I am. If the

ratio gets knocked down from 1/2 omega3/omega6 to 1/4 or so, I'm not

terribly concerned. It's still SOO much better than what most people

are getting that I just can't get myself to be that worried about

it. There's too many other things that will make a greater

difference in my opinion.

[Guest guest]

<<Aajonous Vonderplanitz?>>

You know I think that is the guy. He had cancer and later ate a

bad/poisonous mushroom that made him really sick. Is that the same guy?

I think I found his story by following a link from www.beyondveg.com

site.

<<If you're not used to eating cooked meat, you might as well start by

eating it raw. It's a bit hard to describe, but raw meat has a much

fresher taste than it does when cooked, and retains more of the

moisture. Except for psychological issues, someone used to eating mostly

fruits and vegetables should be right at home with raw meat.>>

You really think so? I'll have to re-look at the raw meat section of NT

for ways to disguise it to start with I think. I went over that chapter

rather quickly when I was reading the book, as it made me squeezy.

An 83 y/o man wrote into Chet Day and here is a little bit of what he

had to say. There must be something to eating raw meat.

<<I was a strict vegetarian for eight years, and when I added raw fish

into my diet, the diabetic leg ulcers healed rapidly. I got the hint

from your site.>>

Be well,

Robin