Re: Email Response from Sheldon RE: Zaps and withdrawal.

[Guest guest]

This is the typical horse manure you will get from a psychiatrist, how the

problem is

with the patient and " we just need to find the problem to fix it " . It's

psychobabble.

The problem occurs when the drug is added.

Response from a

psychiatrist in NY times

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I wrote to Dr. Sheldon who was quoted in the NY Times saying that " brain

zaps aren't painful " . I gave him a quick rundown on s withdrawal. I

received an email from him today.

" The Paxil seems to have been associated with this event in your son. Th=

e

question is whether it is related to drug discontinuation (a relatively

circumscribed phenomenon) or something else associated with the drug.

The phenomenon that you are describing has been reported with people

(primarily teenagers) that have taken drugs like Paxil. However, to disting=

uish

it from discontinuation, this phenomenon can occur with people who are

continuing to take the drug. This suggests that the effect is not related t=

o

discontinuation per se, but something else.

So the question is, what? I recently completed writing a chapter for a new =

textbook being produced by the American Psychiatric Press on mood

disorders, and I discuss the problem there. I have come up with several

possibilities. If the reactions are brief, they can readily be attributible=

to

discontinuation effects (for example, missing doses), however, if they are =

more prolonged, it begins to get us into an area that is a bit more complex=

.

Probably the most common reason for these events is the induction of what i=

s

called a " mixed state. " This is seen in undiagnosed bipolar disorder (manic=

-

depressive illness). It has been shown with Paxil and other antidepressant =

drugs that, if they are administered to people who have bipolar disorder

without using a concomitant mood stabilizer, then situations can be caused =

that are like the one seen in your son (anxiety, agitation, aggressive beha=

vior,

highly variable sleep, and suicidal preoccupation). It probably happens mor=

e

frequently in teens because many have not had their first manic episode yet=

.

Finally, there may be a small subset of people who have adverse effects

associated with SSRI's; that is, people who do not seem to have bipolar

disorder and, yet, who have these effects. I have made an effort to try to =

figure

out how often this occurs. I have seen several thousand people with mood

disorders in my career, and I am able to count six.

I bring up these issues for several reasons. Correct attribution is absolut=

ely

essential if we are going to be able to find out the cause and, theoretical=

ly,

prevent it. Therefore, distinguishing between a discontinuation effect (i.e=

., no-

drug) from the effect of the drug itself is essential. "

********

her reply:

What I'm reading from this is if you have the symptoms reported by hundreds=

of people on paxil, its not the paxil, but your really Bi-polar and need a=

nother

drug to fix it!

I wonder what drug company payroll this guy is on.

**********************************

I think i AM going to email him with my experience with paxil. How many of=

us

will it take to completely inundate his email???

[Guest guest]

This is the typical horse manure you will get from a psychiatrist, how the

problem is

with the patient and " we just need to find the problem to fix it " . It's

psychobabble.

The problem occurs when the drug is added.

Response from a

psychiatrist in NY times

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I wrote to Dr. Sheldon who was quoted in the NY Times saying that " brain

zaps aren't painful " . I gave him a quick rundown on s withdrawal. I

received an email from him today.

" The Paxil seems to have been associated with this event in your son. Th=

e

question is whether it is related to drug discontinuation (a relatively

circumscribed phenomenon) or something else associated with the drug.

The phenomenon that you are describing has been reported with people

(primarily teenagers) that have taken drugs like Paxil. However, to disting=

uish

it from discontinuation, this phenomenon can occur with people who are

continuing to take the drug. This suggests that the effect is not related t=

o

discontinuation per se, but something else.

So the question is, what? I recently completed writing a chapter for a new =

textbook being produced by the American Psychiatric Press on mood

disorders, and I discuss the problem there. I have come up with several

possibilities. If the reactions are brief, they can readily be attributible=

to

discontinuation effects (for example, missing doses), however, if they are =

more prolonged, it begins to get us into an area that is a bit more complex=

.

Probably the most common reason for these events is the induction of what i=

s

called a " mixed state. " This is seen in undiagnosed bipolar disorder (manic=

-

depressive illness). It has been shown with Paxil and other antidepressant =

drugs that, if they are administered to people who have bipolar disorder

without using a concomitant mood stabilizer, then situations can be caused =

that are like the one seen in your son (anxiety, agitation, aggressive beha=

vior,

highly variable sleep, and suicidal preoccupation). It probably happens mor=

e

frequently in teens because many have not had their first manic episode yet=

.

Finally, there may be a small subset of people who have adverse effects

associated with SSRI's; that is, people who do not seem to have bipolar

disorder and, yet, who have these effects. I have made an effort to try to =

figure

out how often this occurs. I have seen several thousand people with mood

disorders in my career, and I am able to count six.

I bring up these issues for several reasons. Correct attribution is absolut=

ely

essential if we are going to be able to find out the cause and, theoretical=

ly,

prevent it. Therefore, distinguishing between a discontinuation effect (i.e=

., no-

drug) from the effect of the drug itself is essential. "

********

her reply:

What I'm reading from this is if you have the symptoms reported by hundreds=

of people on paxil, its not the paxil, but your really Bi-polar and need a=

nother

drug to fix it!

I wonder what drug company payroll this guy is on.

**********************************

I think i AM going to email him with my experience with paxil. How many of=

us

will it take to completely inundate his email???

[Guest guest]

I called him a " Quack " first time I emailed him

Thank you for replying, I apologise for the name calling, being very

passionate about this issue gets the better of my manners at times

My research into ssri's has made me bitter, the damage done to my

family and myself is not repairable- I have lost so much.

Being told by many dr's that the hell I lived thought had " nothing to

do with Paxil " " These drugs have only minor side effects " " you have

an underlying problem " " this is the real you "

As a devoted family man and father I applied all my strength and

consideration determination to being " well " . I suffered from burn out

after many years in high pressure coporate jobs. Had it not been for

the disgusting/fraudulent way that ssri's are marketed and promoted

my dr's would have been aware I was having a severe reaction to this

drug. We would not have suffered thought my adverse reaction and

withdrawal in complete ignorance of what was happening - people close

to me would have had a reason for the way I was - I would not have

been put back on the same drug only to suffer an even more horrific

reaction

I cringe(worse actually) when I hear " clinical trial " data quoted

SELECTIVELY and totally out of context.

How many dr's/patients are aware of the way these trials are

conducted??????? In " general " they are-

-Funded by drug companies with huge financial interests in a positive

outcome

-Results are subjective, based on Q & A DSM and open to interpretation

-People who are deeply depressed/suicidal are excluded

-Trials are short 6,8,12 weeks with no long term follow up

-Trial " dropouts " are not included in full analysis

-Negative trial results are not published

In this environment the best results show (as the drug company

promotion says) 75% of depressed people are cured and any side effect

is short lived and minor - those that don't respond well are either

bi-polar or have other underlying problems

What is not said is - 65% achieved the same improvement on placebo's-

no one was cured, 75%/65% made relative improvement on the DSM scale-

those that dropout out due to adverse reactions aren't included in

results- the most ill/ deeply depressed people were excluded from the

trials -coding of negative results was manipulated

(rigged) " suicidal " somehow became " depressed "

In this corrupt environment to achieve a positive response rate of

(at best) 10% in to my view " clinically insignificant "

The drug companies efforts to get these drug approved for the young

people bears witness to a corrupt-money centred industry. Of the 15

trials only 3 showed positive results, the drug companies were forced

to release to regulators (UK) negative trials. Analysis shows clearly

and conclusively- ssri's are ineffective and dangerous for young

people. They have been banned in the UK and other countries

So? why are dr's prescribing them to kids at ever increasing

rates??????? It is the biggest " scam " of the drug company era. To

endanger the well being and lives of kids for profit is below

contempt.

The current ploy of drug companies and some regulators (i.e. FDA) of

dividing the ssri debate into separate issues is a smoke screen. The

question of some young people becoming suicidal (which they do) on

ssri's is taken out of the context of the fact in has been proved (by

the drug companies) that ssri's are ineffective in treating depressed

youngsters- WHY risk the side effects when the bloody things don't

even work!!!!!!! pure madness!!!!

Prozac is safe for kids tho??? -like hell it is. SSRI side effects

are largely the same across all brands, as witnessed by ADR

reporting. Only Eli Lily achieved positive trial data, none of the

other companies could -so in this current environment we should

believe these results. A drug company wouldn't " rig " a trial for

profit- would they????

People (you??) don't seem to put a " real " context around this issue-

these are real families being destroyed - these are " real " people

committing suicide - these are real people having their careers ruined

The whole business is a farce- more people are killed by prescription

drugs than illegal drugs. The drug companies used to make and sell

LSD Heroin etc as cures. We are always told about the terrible

effects of E etc. what about the shocking damage done by legal drugs.

As for dr's taking gifts/travel etc from drug company reps- it's

corrupt and wrong!!!

First do no harm

> This email was sent to Dr. Sheldon in response to the article in

the NY Tim=

> es.

> Her son had a horrible withdrawal from paxil and she questioned him

about

> his comments on Zaps NOT being painful. Here is her post from

> Paxilprogress.org.

> ***************

> Posted: Thu May 27, 2004 8:32 pm    Post subject: Response from a

> psychiatrist in NY times

> --------------------------------------------------------------------

----

> I wrote to Dr. Sheldon who was quoted in the NY Times saying

that " brain

> zaps aren't painful " . I gave him a quick rundown on s

withdrawal. I

> received an email from him today.

>

> " The Paxil seems to have been associated with this event in your

son. Th=

> e

> question is whether it is related to drug discontinuation (a

relatively

> circumscribed phenomenon) or something else associated with the

drug.

>

> The phenomenon that you are describing has been reported with

people

> (primarily teenagers) that have taken drugs like Paxil. However, to

disting=

> uish

> it from discontinuation, this phenomenon can occur with people who

are

> continuing to take the drug. This suggests that the effect is not

related t=

> o

> discontinuation per se, but something else.

>

> So the question is, what? I recently completed writing a chapter

for a new =

>

> textbook being produced by the American Psychiatric Press on mood

> disorders, and I discuss the problem there. I have come up with

several

> possibilities. If the reactions are brief, they can readily be

attributible=

> to

> discontinuation effects (for example, missing doses), however, if

they are =

>

> more prolonged, it begins to get us into an area that is a bit more

complex=

> .

> Probably the most common reason for these events is the induction

of what i=

> s

> called a " mixed state. " This is seen in undiagnosed bipolar

disorder (manic=

> -

> depressive illness). It has been shown with Paxil and other

antidepressant =

>

> drugs that, if they are administered to people who have bipolar

disorder

> without using a concomitant mood stabilizer, then situations can be

caused =

>

> that are like the one seen in your son (anxiety, agitation,

aggressive beha=

> vior,

> highly variable sleep, and suicidal preoccupation). It probably

happens mor=

> e

> frequently in teens because many have not had their first manic

episode yet=

> .

>

> Finally, there may be a small subset of people who have adverse

effects

> associated with SSRI's; that is, people who do not seem to have

bipolar

> disorder and, yet, who have these effects. I have made an effort to

try to =

> figure

> out how often this occurs. I have seen several thousand people with

mood

> disorders in my career, and I am able to count six.

>

> I bring up these issues for several reasons. Correct attribution is

absolut=

> ely

> essential if we are going to be able to find out the cause and,

theoretical=

> ly,

> prevent it. Therefore, distinguishing between a discontinuation

effect (i.e=

> ., no-

> drug) from the effect of the drug itself is essential. "

> ********

> her reply:

>

> What I'm reading from this is if you have the symptoms reported by

hundreds=

>

> of people on paxil, its not the paxil, but your really Bi-polar

and need a=

> nother

> drug to fix it!

> I wonder what drug company payroll this guy is on.

> **********************************

>

> I think i AM going to email him with my experience with paxil. How

many of=

> us

> will it take to completely inundate his email???

>

[Guest guest]

Dr. Sheldon says " It has been shown with Paxil and other

antidepressant drugs that, if they are administered to people who have

bipolar disorder without using a concomitant mood stabilizer, then

situations can be caused that are like the one seen in your son

(anxiety, agitation, aggressive behavior, highly variable sleep, and

suicidal preoccupation). It probably happens more frequently in teens

because many have not had their first manic episode yet. "

This is absolutely incorrect. Treatment with a concomitant mood

stabilizer (Lithium, Depakote, Lamictal, Tegretol, and maybe Zyprexa)

is NO protection against anxiety, agitation, aggressive behavior,

highly variable sleep, and suicidal preoccupation. That is pretty

much an accepted fact in the current bipolar treatment philosophy IF

your talk to so-called experts in " bipolar " disorder. This is

ESPECIALLY true for children and adolscents. I know. My son took 400

mg of Lamictal with his Celexa and still wanted to kill people. I

know of MANY children who are living in residental treatment centers

or in and out of psychiatric hospitals because there are doctors like

this one who think mood stabilizers make SSRIs safe for kids.

And " Finally, there may be a small subset of people who have adverse

effects associated with SSRI's; that is, people who do not seem to

have bipolar disorder and, yet, who have these effects. I have made an

effort to try to figure out how often this occurs. I have seen several

thousand people with mood disorders in my career, and I am able to

count six. "

I think this may be the new push from the medical industry: Everyone

who has an adverse reaction to SSRIs really has undiagnosed bipolar.

That keeps the bipolar crowd happy -- they get more people diagnosed

" bipolar " to swell their ranks -- and gets the medical industry off

the hook -- misdiagnosis is the problem, not the drug. This reaction

is undoubtedly more common that 6 out of thousands because over the

past decade and a half some researchers wanted to add a new form of

Bipolar (either III or IV, depending on which researcher you read)

which is called SSRI Induced Bipolar. I can only suggest that our

dear Dr. Sheldon is one of the many doctors out there who couldn't

recognize an adverse reaction to an SSRI if it jumped up and bit him.

" I bring up these issues for several reasons. Correct attribution is

absolutely essential if we are going to be able to find out the cause

and, theoretically, prevent it. Therefore, distinguishing between a

discontinuation effect (i.e., no-drug) from the effect of the drug

itself is essential. "

Correct diagnosis of a treatable medical condition is absolutely

essential if doctors are going to prescribe drugs. They need to be

able to definitively diagnose any neurological condition BEFORE they

start handing out medications. And they need to know what those

medications actually do to the body BEFORE people start taking them,

ESPECIALLY CHILDREN WITH GROWING BRAINS. Prescribing medication to

treat a list of subjectively identified symptoms without any

scientific method of sorting out one cause from another makes about as

much sense as treating everyone with a distended abdomen as though

he/she is pregnant. But that's the way psychiatry works.

As is stands, long term chronic use of amphetamines/stimulants

(Adderall, Concerta, Ritalin) leads to depression. Short or long term

use of SSRIs can lead to mania and hypomania. Any wonder why we have

so many kids suddenly being diagnosed " early onset bipolar disorder "

(whatever that is)?

[Guest guest]

I didn't write all I wanted to write in the previous post.

There are people -- generally older people with " regular adult "

bipolar who take SSRIs with Lithium. In fact, that is a pretty normal

treatment in Europe. But I know adults who are taking two mood

stabilizers who can't take SSRIs or any antidepressant. And most of

the wildly unstable bp children are taking a bunch of drugs which

invariably includes at least one of each of the following categories:

mood stabilizer, stimulant (or Strattera), antipsychotic, SSRI. Most

started with either the SSRI or the stimulant.

> Dr. Sheldon says " It has been shown with Paxil and other

> antidepressant drugs that, if they are administered to people who

have

> bipolar disorder without using a concomitant mood stabilizer, then

> situations can be caused that are like the one seen in your son

> (anxiety, agitation, aggressive behavior, highly variable sleep, and

> suicidal preoccupation). It probably happens more frequently in

teens

> because many have not had their first manic episode yet. "

>

> This is absolutely incorrect. Treatment with a concomitant mood

> stabilizer (Lithium, Depakote, Lamictal, Tegretol, and maybe

Zyprexa)

> is NO protection against anxiety, agitation, aggressive behavior,

> highly variable sleep, and suicidal preoccupation. That is pretty

> much an accepted fact in the current bipolar treatment philosophy IF

> your talk to so-called experts in " bipolar " disorder. This is

> ESPECIALLY true for children and adolscents. I know. My son took

400

> mg of Lamictal with his Celexa and still wanted to kill people. I

> know of MANY children who are living in residental treatment centers

> or in and out of psychiatric hospitals because there are doctors

like

> this one who think mood stabilizers make SSRIs safe for kids.

>

> And " Finally, there may be a small subset of people who have adverse

> effects associated with SSRI's; that is, people who do not seem to

> have bipolar disorder and, yet, who have these effects. I have made

an

> effort to try to figure out how often this occurs. I have seen

several

> thousand people with mood disorders in my career, and I am able to

> count six. "

>

> I think this may be the new push from the medical industry:

Everyone

> who has an adverse reaction to SSRIs really has undiagnosed bipolar.

> That keeps the bipolar crowd happy -- they get more people diagnosed

> " bipolar " to swell their ranks -- and gets the medical industry off

> the hook -- misdiagnosis is the problem, not the drug. This

reaction

> is undoubtedly more common that 6 out of thousands because over the

> past decade and a half some researchers wanted to add a new form of

> Bipolar (either III or IV, depending on which researcher you read)

> which is called SSRI Induced Bipolar. I can only suggest that our

> dear Dr. Sheldon is one of the many doctors out there who couldn't

> recognize an adverse reaction to an SSRI if it jumped up and bit

him.

>

> " I bring up these issues for several reasons. Correct attribution is

> absolutely essential if we are going to be able to find out the

cause

> and, theoretically, prevent it. Therefore, distinguishing between a

> discontinuation effect (i.e., no-drug) from the effect of the drug

> itself is essential. "

>

> Correct diagnosis of a treatable medical condition is absolutely

> essential if doctors are going to prescribe drugs. They need to be

> able to definitively diagnose any neurological condition BEFORE they

> start handing out medications. And they need to know what those

> medications actually do to the body BEFORE people start taking them,

> ESPECIALLY CHILDREN WITH GROWING BRAINS. Prescribing medication to

> treat a list of subjectively identified symptoms without any

> scientific method of sorting out one cause from another makes about

as

> much sense as treating everyone with a distended abdomen as though

> he/she is pregnant. But that's the way psychiatry works.

>

> As is stands, long term chronic use of amphetamines/stimulants

> (Adderall, Concerta, Ritalin) leads to depression. Short or long

term

> use of SSRIs can lead to mania and hypomania. Any wonder why we

have

> so many kids suddenly being diagnosed " early onset bipolar disorder "

> (whatever that is)?