Re: Low levels of Serotonin

December 27, 2005

I agree completely that hormones and other chemicals in the body can

change for a variety of reasons. This is the main reasons I stopped

taking meds and will never take another one. I also suspect that is

probably why patients are legally NOT required to be tested prior to

taking meds.

However, my question was concerning your previous statement

that: " there is no " blood " test for serotonin because Brain serotonin

(which is what ssri's alter) is only measureable with a brain

sample.. not something you can do to a live person. "

I was trying to determine if your above statment was correct. To my

knowledge, based on the links I've posted, there IS a blood test for

serotonin, but not accurate enough to justify medicating someone for

mood and emotional issues. :)Sharon

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > I would like to know how they are measuring

> > Serotonin

> > > in

> > > > > the

> > > > > > > > brain

> > > > > > > > > or

> > > > > > > > > > body.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > john

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Serotonin and Aggression: " The Dr. Jekyll and

Mr.

> > Hyde

> > > > > > Effect "

> > > > > > > By

> > > > > > > > > > Cardwell C. Nuckols, PhD

> > > > > > > > > > Louis son's The Strange Case of Dr.

> > > Jekyll

> > > > and

> > > > > > > Mr.

> > > > > > > > > Hyde

> > > > > > > > > > demonstrates that " good " and " evil " can exist

> within

> > a

> > > > > > single

> > > > > > > > > person.

> > > > > > > > > > As you might remember, Dr. Jekyll ingests a

formula

> > > and

> > > > is

> > > > > > > > > > transformed from a mild-mannered English

physician

> > > into

> > > > an

> > > > > > > > > > antisocial, violent criminal.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Any formula that interferes with the actions of

> > > > serotonin

> > > > > in

> > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > > brain can bring about changes that resemble

> Jekyll's

> > > > > > > > > transformation

> > > > > > > > > > to Hyde. While less dramatic than the Mr. Hyde

> > effect,

> > > > > > > serotonin

> > > > > > > > > > deficiency can create tendencies toward anxiety,

> > > > > depression,

> > > > > > > out-

> > > > > > > > > of-

> > > > > > > > > > control impulsivity, and violence toward self

and

> > > > others.

> > > > > > > > > Considering

> > > > > > > > > > our current understanding of neurochemistry,

> > Jekyll's

> > > > > > formula

> > > > > > > may

> > > > > > > > > > well have contained a potent anti-serotonergic

drug

> > > > > > > > > (http://www.life-

> > > > > > > > > > enhancement.com/article_template.asp?ID=208).

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Researchers have found that violence related to

low

> > > > > > serotonin

> > > > > > > > > levels

> > > > > > > > > > can be either inner- or outer-directed. P.

Placidi

> > and

> > > > > > > colleagues

> > > > > > > > > > studied 93 individuals suffering from

depression.

> > > These

> > > > > > > > > researchers

> > > > > > > > > > found that a higher level of aggression was

> strongly

> > > > > > > associated

> > > > > > > > > with

> > > > > > > > > > lower cerebrospinal fluid levels of 5-

> > > hydroxyindolacetic

> > > > > > acid

> > > > > > > (5-

> > > > > > > > > > HIAA). 5-HIAA is a major metabolite of

serotonin.

> > > Their

> > > > > data

> > > > > > > also

> > > > > > > > > > revealed that lower levels of 5-HIAA were found

in

> > > > > > successful

> > > > > > > > > suicide

> > > > > > > > > > attempters (Placidi, et al., 2001).

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > A group of Danish scientists measured levels of

5-

> > HIAA

> > > > in

> > > > > 16

> > > > > > > men

> > > > > > > > > > convicted of homicide, 22 men who attempted

suicide

> > > and

> > > > 39

> > > > > > > > healthy

> > > > > > > > > > male controls. The lowest levels of 5-HIAA were

> > found

> > > in

> > > > > > those

> > > > > > > > men

> > > > > > > > > > who had killed a sexual partner or had attempted

> > > suicide

> > > > > > > > (Lidberg,

> > > > > > > > > et

> > > > > > > > > > al., 1985).

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Many studies have found that low serotonin

levels

> > are

> > > > > linked

> > > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > > > aggression, alcohol abuse and mental illness. At

> the

> > > > > > National

> > > > > > > > > > Institutes of Health (NIH) Primate Center in

> > > > Poolesville,

> > > > > > Md.,

> > > > > > > > > > researchers Suomi and Higley studied the link

> > between

> > > > > > > behavior,

> > > > > > > > > > serotonin and environment in rhesus monkeys.

They

> > > found

> > > > > that

> > > > > > 5

> > > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > > 10

> > > > > > > > > > percent of monkeys in the wild and laboratory

> > > > populations

> > > > > > have

> > > > > > > > > > elevated impulsivity and aggression. These

monkeys

> > > also

> > > > > have

> > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > > lowest levels of serotonin when compared to the

> rest

> > > of

> > > > the

> > > > > > > > > > population. In the lab, they're antisocial,

> > > > inappropriately

> > > > > > > > > > aggressive and will drink to intoxication. In

the

> > > wild,

> > > > > > these

> > > > > > > > > monkeys

> > > > > > > > > > seek out danger. They will make risky leaps

between

> > > > trees

> > > > > > that

> > > > > > > > > other

> > > > > > > > > > monkeys would never attempt

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > >

(http://faculty.riohondo.edu/mpilati/psych101/serotonin.htm).

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > It has been more than one hundred years since

> > > > son's

> > > > > > > > literary

> > > > > > > > > > masterpiece. In recent years, pharmaceutical

> > companies

> > > > have

> > > > > > > > > created a

> > > > > > > > > > number of pharmacological agents that can

produce

> > > Jekyll-

> > > > > and-

> > > > > > > Hyde-

> > > > > > > > > > like changes.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > The appetite-suppressors fenfluramine (Pondimin

and

> > > > > Ionamin)

> > > > > > > and

> > > > > > > > > > dexfenfluramine (Redux) both act by depleting

> > > serotonin

> > > > and

> > > > > > > may

> > > > > > > > > > permanently destroy serotonergic neurons in the

> > brain.

> > > > Even

> > > > > > > > weight-

> > > > > > > > > > loss diets that are extremely low in fat have

> caused

> > > > Hyde-

> > > > > > like

> > > > > > > > > > behavior patterns in some people.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Severe irritability and aggression have been

> > > attributed

> > > > to

> > > > > > > > > > cholesterol-lowering medications

called " statins "

> > > > > > > > > > (www.americanchiropractor.com/print.asp?

> > > > > > > > articleid=276 & category=4).

> > > > > > > > > > Among the best studied of the " statins " are

Lopid,

> > > > > Questran,

> > > > > > > > > Lescol,

> > > > > > > > > > Mevacor, Zocor and Pravachol. In another study,

> > > patients

> > > > > > with

> > > > > > > low

> > > > > > > > > > cholesterol showed hypersensitivity to detecting

> > anger

> > > > and

> > > > > > > > sadness

> > > > > > > > > in

> > > > > > > > > > themselves (Penttinen, 1995). Low serotonin

levels

> > > > appear

> > > > > to

> > > > > > > be

> > > > > > > > > > involved.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > The relationship between alcohol, depression,

and

> > > > violence

> > > > > > is

> > > > > > > > well

> > > > > > > > > > known. A high proportion of suicide victims are

> > found

> > > to

> > > > > > have

> > > > > > > > been

> > > > > > > > > > drinking heavily at the time of their death.

> > > Similarly,

> > > > > > > > > perpetrators

> > > > > > > > > > of violent crimes are often intoxicated when

they

> > > commit

> > > > a

> > > > > > > crime

> > > > > > > > > > (Murdoch, et al., 1990).

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > In animal studies, some drugs that decrease

> > serotonin

> > > > > > activity

> > > > > > > > > > increase alcohol consumption. When animals are

> given

> > > > drugs

> > > > > > > that

> > > > > > > > > > enhance serotonin activity (serotonin,

tryptophan,

> 5-

> > > HTP

> > > > or

> > > > > > an

> > > > > > > > > SSRI),

> > > > > > > > > > they drink less alcohol. Rats that have been

bred

> to

> > > > prefer

> > > > > > > > > drinking

> > > > > > > > > > alcohol to water have been found to have reduced

> > > > serotonin

> > > > > > > > > activity

> > > > > > > > > > compared with normal rats (Pihl, et al., 1993).

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Human studies have consistently demonstrated

> reduced

> > > > > alcohol

> > > > > > > > > intake

> > > > > > > > > > among various groups, including social drinkers

and

> > > > alcohol-

> > > > > > > > > dependent

> > > > > > > > > > males, taking SSRIs (Pihl, et al., 1993).

> Alcoholics

> > > > have

> > > > > > also

> > > > > > > > > been

> > > > > > > > > > shown to have reduced serotonin activity as

> > indicated

> > > by

> > > > > low

> > > > > > > > > levels

> > > > > > > > > > of 5-HIAA (LeMarquand, et al., 1994). As

alcoholics

> > > > > progress

> > > > > > > in

> > > > > > > > > their

> > > > > > > > > > illness, they become less able to control their

> > > emotions

> > > > > and

> > > > > > > > > physical

> > > > > > > > > > actions.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Pihl, et al., state that people with low

serotonin

> > are

> > > > > > > likely " to

> > > > > > > > > > appear depressed and aggressive, more driven by

> > > > appetites

> > > > > > > (more

> > > > > > > > > > motivated by food, water, sex, and drugs of

abuse),

> > > and

> > > > > more

> > > > > > > > > > impulsive (less able to control behavior) in the

> > face

> > > of

> > > > > > > threat. "

> > > > > > > > > > They may also be more likely to use aggression

to

> > > > achieve

> > > > > > > > rewards.

> > > > > > > > > > Specifically with regard to alcohol, decreased

> > > serotonin

> > > > > may

> > > > > > > lead

> > > > > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > > > an inability to terminate drinking once started.

> And

> > > if

> > > > a

> > > > > > > person

> > > > > > > > > with

> > > > > > > > > > low serotonin levels starts drinking, they

likely

> > will

> > > > > > exhibit

> > > > > > > an

> > > > > > > > > > increase in aggressive behavior.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > In some people and in some situations

medications

> > that

> > > > can

> > > > > > > > enhance

> > > > > > > > > > life can also create unhealthy dispositions. In

> > every

> > > > > > > situation,

> > > > > > > > > risk

> > > > > > > > > > must be measured versus benefit. Because of the

> > > > > serotonergic

> > > > > > > > > lowering

> > > > > > > > > > effects caused by such drugs as the " statins " ,

for

> > > some

> > > > the

> > > > > > > risks

> > > > > > > > > > outweigh the benefits. Mr. Hyde-like problems

make

> > > there

> > > > > use

> > > > > > > > > > untenable. In the case of Redux and fenfluramine

> > > > (the " fen "

> > > > > > in

> > > > > > > > fen-

> > > > > > > > > > phen), both drugs have been removed from the

market

> > in

> > > > > great

> > > > > > > part

> > > > > > > > > due

> > > > > > > > > > to the underlying anti-serotonergic effects. The

> > > actions

> > > > of

> > > > > > > > > serotonin

> > > > > > > > > > in the brain are not extremely well understood.

> What

> > > > does

> > > > > > seem

> > > > > > > > > clear

> > > > > > > > > > is that alterations of serotonin levels can have

> far-

> > > > > > reaching

> > > > > > > > > > cognitive, emotional and behavioral impact.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Cardwell C. Nuckols, MA, PhD (cnuckols@e...) is

> > > > President

> > > > > of

> > > > > > > > > > Cardwell C. Nuckols and Associates, LLC, a

national

> > > and

> > > > > > > > > international

> > > > > > > > > > training and consulting

> > > > > > > > > > organization.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Reference

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > http://faculty.riohondo.edu/mpilati/psych101/serotonin.htm

> > > > > > > > > > http://www.theamericanchiropractor.com/print.asp?

> > > > > > > > > > articleid=276 & category=4

> > > > > > > > > > http://www.life-

> enhancement.com/article_template.asp?

> > > > ID=208

> > > > > > > > > > Lidberg, L., Tuck, J., Asberg, M., Scalia-Tomba,

> G.,

> > > > > > > Bertilsson,

> > > > > > > > > L.

> > > > > > > > > > Homicide, suicide and CSF 5-HIAA. Acta Psychiatr

> > > Scand.

> > > > > > > > > 1985;71:230-

> > > > > > > > > > 236.

> > > > > > > > > > Murdoch D, Pihl R, Ross D. Alcohol and crimes of

> > > > violence:

> > > > > > > > present

> > > > > > > > > > issues. Int J Addict. 1990;25:1065-1081.

> > > > > > > > > > Penttinen J. Hypothesis: low serum cholesterol,

> > > suicide,

> > > > > and

> > > > > > > > > > interleukin-2. Am. J Epidemiol. 1995;141:716-718.

> > > > > > > > > > Pihl R, J. Alcohol, serotonin and

> > aggression.

> > > > > > Alcohol

> > > > > > > > > Health

> > > > > > > > > > Res World. 1993;17:113-117.

> > > > > > > > > > Placidi, G. P., M. A. Oquendo, K. M. Malone, Y.

Y.

> > > > Huang,

> > > > > S.

> > > > > > > P.

> > > > > > > > > > Ellis, and J. J. Mann, Biological Psychiatry,

Vol.

> > 50,

> > > > No.

> > > > > > 10,

> > > > > > > > > > November 15, 2001, 783-91.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > FAIR USE NOTICE

> > > > > > > > > >

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>

December 27, 2005

I agree completely that hormones and other chemicals in the body can

change for a variety of reasons. This is the main reasons I stopped

taking meds and will never take another one. I also suspect that is

probably why patients are legally NOT required to be tested prior to

taking meds.

However, my question was concerning your previous statement

that: " there is no " blood " test for serotonin because Brain serotonin

(which is what ssri's alter) is only measureable with a brain

sample.. not something you can do to a live person. "

I was trying to determine if your above statment was correct. To my

knowledge, based on the links I've posted, there IS a blood test for

serotonin, but not accurate enough to justify medicating someone for

mood and emotional issues. :)Sharon

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > I would like to know how they are measuring

> > Serotonin

> > > in

> > > > > the

> > > > > > > > brain

> > > > > > > > > or

> > > > > > > > > > body.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > john

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Serotonin and Aggression: " The Dr. Jekyll and

Mr.

> > Hyde

> > > > > > Effect "

> > > > > > > By

> > > > > > > > > > Cardwell C. Nuckols, PhD

> > > > > > > > > > Louis son's The Strange Case of Dr.

> > > Jekyll

> > > > and

> > > > > > > Mr.

> > > > > > > > > Hyde

> > > > > > > > > > demonstrates that " good " and " evil " can exist

> within

> > a

> > > > > > single

> > > > > > > > > person.

> > > > > > > > > > As you might remember, Dr. Jekyll ingests a

formula

> > > and

> > > > is

> > > > > > > > > > transformed from a mild-mannered English

physician

> > > into

> > > > an

> > > > > > > > > > antisocial, violent criminal.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Any formula that interferes with the actions of

> > > > serotonin

> > > > > in

> > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > > brain can bring about changes that resemble

> Jekyll's

> > > > > > > > > transformation

> > > > > > > > > > to Hyde. While less dramatic than the Mr. Hyde

> > effect,

> > > > > > > serotonin

> > > > > > > > > > deficiency can create tendencies toward anxiety,

> > > > > depression,

> > > > > > > out-

> > > > > > > > > of-

> > > > > > > > > > control impulsivity, and violence toward self

and

> > > > others.

> > > > > > > > > Considering

> > > > > > > > > > our current understanding of neurochemistry,

> > Jekyll's

> > > > > > formula

> > > > > > > may

> > > > > > > > > > well have contained a potent anti-serotonergic

drug

> > > > > > > > > (http://www.life-

> > > > > > > > > > enhancement.com/article_template.asp?ID=208).

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Researchers have found that violence related to

low

> > > > > > serotonin

> > > > > > > > > levels

> > > > > > > > > > can be either inner- or outer-directed. P.

Placidi

> > and

> > > > > > > colleagues

> > > > > > > > > > studied 93 individuals suffering from

depression.

> > > These

> > > > > > > > > researchers

> > > > > > > > > > found that a higher level of aggression was

> strongly

> > > > > > > associated

> > > > > > > > > with

> > > > > > > > > > lower cerebrospinal fluid levels of 5-

> > > hydroxyindolacetic

> > > > > > acid

> > > > > > > (5-

> > > > > > > > > > HIAA). 5-HIAA is a major metabolite of

serotonin.

> > > Their

> > > > > data

> > > > > > > also

> > > > > > > > > > revealed that lower levels of 5-HIAA were found

in

> > > > > > successful

> > > > > > > > > suicide

> > > > > > > > > > attempters (Placidi, et al., 2001).

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > A group of Danish scientists measured levels of

5-

> > HIAA

> > > > in

> > > > > 16

> > > > > > > men

> > > > > > > > > > convicted of homicide, 22 men who attempted

suicide

> > > and

> > > > 39

> > > > > > > > healthy

> > > > > > > > > > male controls. The lowest levels of 5-HIAA were

> > found

> > > in

> > > > > > those

> > > > > > > > men

> > > > > > > > > > who had killed a sexual partner or had attempted

> > > suicide

> > > > > > > > (Lidberg,

> > > > > > > > > et

> > > > > > > > > > al., 1985).

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Many studies have found that low serotonin

levels

> > are

> > > > > linked

> > > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > > > aggression, alcohol abuse and mental illness. At

> the

> > > > > > National

> > > > > > > > > > Institutes of Health (NIH) Primate Center in

> > > > Poolesville,

> > > > > > Md.,

> > > > > > > > > > researchers Suomi and Higley studied the link

> > between

> > > > > > > behavior,

> > > > > > > > > > serotonin and environment in rhesus monkeys.

They

> > > found

> > > > > that

> > > > > > 5

> > > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > > 10

> > > > > > > > > > percent of monkeys in the wild and laboratory

> > > > populations

> > > > > > have

> > > > > > > > > > elevated impulsivity and aggression. These

monkeys

> > > also

> > > > > have

> > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > > lowest levels of serotonin when compared to the

> rest

> > > of

> > > > the

> > > > > > > > > > population. In the lab, they're antisocial,

> > > > inappropriately

> > > > > > > > > > aggressive and will drink to intoxication. In

the

> > > wild,

> > > > > > these

> > > > > > > > > monkeys

> > > > > > > > > > seek out danger. They will make risky leaps

between

> > > > trees

> > > > > > that

> > > > > > > > > other

> > > > > > > > > > monkeys would never attempt

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > >

(http://faculty.riohondo.edu/mpilati/psych101/serotonin.htm).

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > It has been more than one hundred years since

> > > > son's

> > > > > > > > literary

> > > > > > > > > > masterpiece. In recent years, pharmaceutical

> > companies

> > > > have

> > > > > > > > > created a

> > > > > > > > > > number of pharmacological agents that can

produce

> > > Jekyll-

> > > > > and-

> > > > > > > Hyde-

> > > > > > > > > > like changes.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > The appetite-suppressors fenfluramine (Pondimin

and

> > > > > Ionamin)

> > > > > > > and

> > > > > > > > > > dexfenfluramine (Redux) both act by depleting

> > > serotonin

> > > > and

> > > > > > > may

> > > > > > > > > > permanently destroy serotonergic neurons in the

> > brain.

> > > > Even

> > > > > > > > weight-

> > > > > > > > > > loss diets that are extremely low in fat have

> caused

> > > > Hyde-

> > > > > > like

> > > > > > > > > > behavior patterns in some people.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Severe irritability and aggression have been

> > > attributed

> > > > to

> > > > > > > > > > cholesterol-lowering medications

called " statins "

> > > > > > > > > > (www.americanchiropractor.com/print.asp?

> > > > > > > > articleid=276 & category=4).

> > > > > > > > > > Among the best studied of the " statins " are

Lopid,

> > > > > Questran,

> > > > > > > > > Lescol,

> > > > > > > > > > Mevacor, Zocor and Pravachol. In another study,

> > > patients

> > > > > > with

> > > > > > > low

> > > > > > > > > > cholesterol showed hypersensitivity to detecting

> > anger

> > > > and

> > > > > > > > sadness

> > > > > > > > > in

> > > > > > > > > > themselves (Penttinen, 1995). Low serotonin

levels

> > > > appear

> > > > > to

> > > > > > > be

> > > > > > > > > > involved.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > The relationship between alcohol, depression,

and

> > > > violence

> > > > > > is

> > > > > > > > well

> > > > > > > > > > known. A high proportion of suicide victims are

> > found

> > > to

> > > > > > have

> > > > > > > > been

> > > > > > > > > > drinking heavily at the time of their death.

> > > Similarly,

> > > > > > > > > perpetrators

> > > > > > > > > > of violent crimes are often intoxicated when

they

> > > commit

> > > > a

> > > > > > > crime

> > > > > > > > > > (Murdoch, et al., 1990).

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > In animal studies, some drugs that decrease

> > serotonin

> > > > > > activity

> > > > > > > > > > increase alcohol consumption. When animals are

> given

> > > > drugs

> > > > > > > that

> > > > > > > > > > enhance serotonin activity (serotonin,

tryptophan,

> 5-

> > > HTP

> > > > or

> > > > > > an

> > > > > > > > > SSRI),

> > > > > > > > > > they drink less alcohol. Rats that have been

bred

> to

> > > > prefer

> > > > > > > > > drinking

> > > > > > > > > > alcohol to water have been found to have reduced

> > > > serotonin

> > > > > > > > > activity

> > > > > > > > > > compared with normal rats (Pihl, et al., 1993).

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Human studies have consistently demonstrated

> reduced

> > > > > alcohol

> > > > > > > > > intake

> > > > > > > > > > among various groups, including social drinkers

and

> > > > alcohol-

> > > > > > > > > dependent

> > > > > > > > > > males, taking SSRIs (Pihl, et al., 1993).

> Alcoholics

> > > > have

> > > > > > also

> > > > > > > > > been

> > > > > > > > > > shown to have reduced serotonin activity as

> > indicated

> > > by

> > > > > low

> > > > > > > > > levels

> > > > > > > > > > of 5-HIAA (LeMarquand, et al., 1994). As

alcoholics

> > > > > progress

> > > > > > > in

> > > > > > > > > their

> > > > > > > > > > illness, they become less able to control their

> > > emotions

> > > > > and

> > > > > > > > > physical

> > > > > > > > > > actions.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Pihl, et al., state that people with low

serotonin

> > are

> > > > > > > likely " to

> > > > > > > > > > appear depressed and aggressive, more driven by

> > > > appetites

> > > > > > > (more

> > > > > > > > > > motivated by food, water, sex, and drugs of

abuse),

> > > and

> > > > > more

> > > > > > > > > > impulsive (less able to control behavior) in the

> > face

> > > of

> > > > > > > threat. "

> > > > > > > > > > They may also be more likely to use aggression

to

> > > > achieve

> > > > > > > > rewards.

> > > > > > > > > > Specifically with regard to alcohol, decreased

> > > serotonin

> > > > > may

> > > > > > > lead

> > > > > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > > > an inability to terminate drinking once started.

> And

> > > if

> > > > a

> > > > > > > person

> > > > > > > > > with

> > > > > > > > > > low serotonin levels starts drinking, they

likely

> > will

> > > > > > exhibit

> > > > > > > an

> > > > > > > > > > increase in aggressive behavior.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > In some people and in some situations

medications

> > that

> > > > can

> > > > > > > > enhance

> > > > > > > > > > life can also create unhealthy dispositions. In

> > every

> > > > > > > situation,

> > > > > > > > > risk

> > > > > > > > > > must be measured versus benefit. Because of the

> > > > > serotonergic

> > > > > > > > > lowering

> > > > > > > > > > effects caused by such drugs as the " statins " ,

for

> > > some

> > > > the

> > > > > > > risks

> > > > > > > > > > outweigh the benefits. Mr. Hyde-like problems

make

> > > there

> > > > > use

> > > > > > > > > > untenable. In the case of Redux and fenfluramine

> > > > (the " fen "

> > > > > > in

> > > > > > > > fen-

> > > > > > > > > > phen), both drugs have been removed from the

market

> > in

> > > > > great

> > > > > > > part

> > > > > > > > > due

> > > > > > > > > > to the underlying anti-serotonergic effects. The

> > > actions

> > > > of

> > > > > > > > > serotonin

> > > > > > > > > > in the brain are not extremely well understood.

> What

> > > > does

> > > > > > seem

> > > > > > > > > clear

> > > > > > > > > > is that alterations of serotonin levels can have

> far-

> > > > > > reaching

> > > > > > > > > > cognitive, emotional and behavioral impact.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Cardwell C. Nuckols, MA, PhD (cnuckols@e...) is

> > > > President

> > > > > of

> > > > > > > > > > Cardwell C. Nuckols and Associates, LLC, a

national

> > > and

> > > > > > > > > international

> > > > > > > > > > training and consulting

> > > > > > > > > > organization.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Reference

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > http://faculty.riohondo.edu/mpilati/psych101/serotonin.htm

> > > > > > > > > > http://www.theamericanchiropractor.com/print.asp?

> > > > > > > > > > articleid=276 & category=4

> > > > > > > > > > http://www.life-

> enhancement.com/article_template.asp?

> > > > ID=208

> > > > > > > > > > Lidberg, L., Tuck, J., Asberg, M., Scalia-Tomba,

> G.,

> > > > > > > Bertilsson,

> > > > > > > > > L.

> > > > > > > > > > Homicide, suicide and CSF 5-HIAA. Acta Psychiatr

> > > Scand.

> > > > > > > > > 1985;71:230-

> > > > > > > > > > 236.

> > > > > > > > > > Murdoch D, Pihl R, Ross D. Alcohol and crimes of

> > > > violence:

> > > > > > > > present

> > > > > > > > > > issues. Int J Addict. 1990;25:1065-1081.

> > > > > > > > > > Penttinen J. Hypothesis: low serum cholesterol,

> > > suicide,

> > > > > and

> > > > > > > > > > interleukin-2. Am. J Epidemiol. 1995;141:716-718.

> > > > > > > > > > Pihl R, J. Alcohol, serotonin and

> > aggression.

> > > > > > Alcohol

> > > > > > > > > Health

> > > > > > > > > > Res World. 1993;17:113-117.

> > > > > > > > > > Placidi, G. P., M. A. Oquendo, K. M. Malone, Y.

Y.

> > > > Huang,

> > > > > S.

> > > > > > > P.

> > > > > > > > > > Ellis, and J. J. Mann, Biological Psychiatry,

Vol.

> > 50,

> > > > No.

> > > > > > 10,

> > > > > > > > > > November 15, 2001, 783-91.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > FAIR USE NOTICE

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > This email contains copyrighted material the use

of

> > > > which

> > > > > > has

> > > > > > > not

> > > > > > > > > > always been specifically authorized by the

> copyright

> > > > owner.

> > > > > > I

> > > > > > > am

> > > > > > > > > > making such material available in my efforts to

> > > advance

> > > > > > > > > understanding

> > > > > > > > > > of environmental, political, human rights,

> economic,

> > > > > > > democracy,

> > > > > > > > > > scientific, and social justice issues, etc.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > I believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any

such

> > > > > > > copyrighted

> > > > > > > > > > material as provided for in section 107 of the

US

> > > > Copyright

> > > > > > > Law.

> > > > > > > > > In

> > > > > > > > > > accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the

> > > > material

> > > > > in

> > > > > > > this

> > > > > > > > > > email is distributed without profit to those who

> > have

> > > > > > > expressed a

> > > > > > > > > > prior interest in receiving the included

> information

> > > > > > > > > > for research and educational purposes. For more

> > > > information

> > > > > > go

> > > > > > > > to:

> > > > > > > > > > http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml

> > > > > > > > > > If you wish to use copyrighted material from

this

> > > update

> > > > > for

> > > > > > > > > purposes

> > > > > > > > > > of your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must

> > obtain

> > > > > > > permission

> > > > > > > > > > from the copyright owner.

> > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

December 27, 2005

I agree completely that hormones and other chemicals in the body can

change for a variety of reasons. This is the main reasons I stopped

taking meds and will never take another one. I also suspect that is

probably why patients are legally NOT required to be tested prior to

taking meds.

However, my question was concerning your previous statement

that: " there is no " blood " test for serotonin because Brain serotonin

(which is what ssri's alter) is only measureable with a brain

sample.. not something you can do to a live person. "

I was trying to determine if your above statment was correct. To my

knowledge, based on the links I've posted, there IS a blood test for

serotonin, but not accurate enough to justify medicating someone for

mood and emotional issues. :)Sharon

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > I would like to know how they are measuring

> > Serotonin

> > > in

> > > > > the

> > > > > > > > brain

> > > > > > > > > or

> > > > > > > > > > body.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > john

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Serotonin and Aggression: " The Dr. Jekyll and

Mr.

> > Hyde

> > > > > > Effect "

> > > > > > > By

> > > > > > > > > > Cardwell C. Nuckols, PhD

> > > > > > > > > > Louis son's The Strange Case of Dr.

> > > Jekyll

> > > > and

> > > > > > > Mr.

> > > > > > > > > Hyde

> > > > > > > > > > demonstrates that " good " and " evil " can exist

> within

> > a

> > > > > > single

> > > > > > > > > person.

> > > > > > > > > > As you might remember, Dr. Jekyll ingests a

formula

> > > and

> > > > is

> > > > > > > > > > transformed from a mild-mannered English

physician

> > > into

> > > > an

> > > > > > > > > > antisocial, violent criminal.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Any formula that interferes with the actions of

> > > > serotonin

> > > > > in

> > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > > brain can bring about changes that resemble

> Jekyll's

> > > > > > > > > transformation

> > > > > > > > > > to Hyde. While less dramatic than the Mr. Hyde

> > effect,

> > > > > > > serotonin

> > > > > > > > > > deficiency can create tendencies toward anxiety,

> > > > > depression,

> > > > > > > out-

> > > > > > > > > of-

> > > > > > > > > > control impulsivity, and violence toward self

and

> > > > others.

> > > > > > > > > Considering

> > > > > > > > > > our current understanding of neurochemistry,

> > Jekyll's

> > > > > > formula

> > > > > > > may

> > > > > > > > > > well have contained a potent anti-serotonergic

drug

> > > > > > > > > (http://www.life-

> > > > > > > > > > enhancement.com/article_template.asp?ID=208).

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Researchers have found that violence related to

low

> > > > > > serotonin

> > > > > > > > > levels

> > > > > > > > > > can be either inner- or outer-directed. P.

Placidi

> > and

> > > > > > > colleagues

> > > > > > > > > > studied 93 individuals suffering from

depression.

> > > These

> > > > > > > > > researchers

> > > > > > > > > > found that a higher level of aggression was

> strongly

> > > > > > > associated

> > > > > > > > > with

> > > > > > > > > > lower cerebrospinal fluid levels of 5-

> > > hydroxyindolacetic

> > > > > > acid

> > > > > > > (5-

> > > > > > > > > > HIAA). 5-HIAA is a major metabolite of

serotonin.

> > > Their

> > > > > data

> > > > > > > also

> > > > > > > > > > revealed that lower levels of 5-HIAA were found

in

> > > > > > successful

> > > > > > > > > suicide

> > > > > > > > > > attempters (Placidi, et al., 2001).

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > A group of Danish scientists measured levels of

5-

> > HIAA

> > > > in

> > > > > 16

> > > > > > > men

> > > > > > > > > > convicted of homicide, 22 men who attempted

suicide

> > > and

> > > > 39

> > > > > > > > healthy

> > > > > > > > > > male controls. The lowest levels of 5-HIAA were

> > found

> > > in

> > > > > > those

> > > > > > > > men

> > > > > > > > > > who had killed a sexual partner or had attempted

> > > suicide

> > > > > > > > (Lidberg,

> > > > > > > > > et

> > > > > > > > > > al., 1985).

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Many studies have found that low serotonin

levels

> > are

> > > > > linked

> > > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > > > aggression, alcohol abuse and mental illness. At

> the

> > > > > > National

> > > > > > > > > > Institutes of Health (NIH) Primate Center in

> > > > Poolesville,

> > > > > > Md.,

> > > > > > > > > > researchers Suomi and Higley studied the link

> > between

> > > > > > > behavior,

> > > > > > > > > > serotonin and environment in rhesus monkeys.

They

> > > found

> > > > > that

> > > > > > 5

> > > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > > 10

> > > > > > > > > > percent of monkeys in the wild and laboratory

> > > > populations

> > > > > > have

> > > > > > > > > > elevated impulsivity and aggression. These

monkeys

> > > also

> > > > > have

> > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > > lowest levels of serotonin when compared to the

> rest

> > > of

> > > > the

> > > > > > > > > > population. In the lab, they're antisocial,

> > > > inappropriately

> > > > > > > > > > aggressive and will drink to intoxication. In

the

> > > wild,

> > > > > > these

> > > > > > > > > monkeys

> > > > > > > > > > seek out danger. They will make risky leaps

between

> > > > trees

> > > > > > that

> > > > > > > > > other

> > > > > > > > > > monkeys would never attempt

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > >

(http://faculty.riohondo.edu/mpilati/psych101/serotonin.htm).

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > It has been more than one hundred years since

> > > > son's

> > > > > > > > literary

> > > > > > > > > > masterpiece. In recent years, pharmaceutical

> > companies

> > > > have

> > > > > > > > > created a

> > > > > > > > > > number of pharmacological agents that can

produce

> > > Jekyll-

> > > > > and-

> > > > > > > Hyde-

> > > > > > > > > > like changes.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > The appetite-suppressors fenfluramine (Pondimin

and

> > > > > Ionamin)

> > > > > > > and

> > > > > > > > > > dexfenfluramine (Redux) both act by depleting

> > > serotonin

> > > > and

> > > > > > > may

> > > > > > > > > > permanently destroy serotonergic neurons in the

> > brain.

> > > > Even

> > > > > > > > weight-

> > > > > > > > > > loss diets that are extremely low in fat have

> caused

> > > > Hyde-

> > > > > > like

> > > > > > > > > > behavior patterns in some people.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Severe irritability and aggression have been

> > > attributed

> > > > to

> > > > > > > > > > cholesterol-lowering medications

called " statins "

> > > > > > > > > > (www.americanchiropractor.com/print.asp?

> > > > > > > > articleid=276 & category=4).

> > > > > > > > > > Among the best studied of the " statins " are

Lopid,

> > > > > Questran,

> > > > > > > > > Lescol,

> > > > > > > > > > Mevacor, Zocor and Pravachol. In another study,

> > > patients

> > > > > > with

> > > > > > > low

> > > > > > > > > > cholesterol showed hypersensitivity to detecting

> > anger

> > > > and

> > > > > > > > sadness

> > > > > > > > > in

> > > > > > > > > > themselves (Penttinen, 1995). Low serotonin

levels

> > > > appear

> > > > > to

> > > > > > > be

> > > > > > > > > > involved.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > The relationship between alcohol, depression,

and

> > > > violence

> > > > > > is

> > > > > > > > well

> > > > > > > > > > known. A high proportion of suicide victims are

> > found

> > > to

> > > > > > have

> > > > > > > > been

> > > > > > > > > > drinking heavily at the time of their death.

> > > Similarly,

> > > > > > > > > perpetrators

> > > > > > > > > > of violent crimes are often intoxicated when

they

> > > commit

> > > > a

> > > > > > > crime

> > > > > > > > > > (Murdoch, et al., 1990).

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > In animal studies, some drugs that decrease

> > serotonin

> > > > > > activity

> > > > > > > > > > increase alcohol consumption. When animals are

> given

> > > > drugs

> > > > > > > that

> > > > > > > > > > enhance serotonin activity (serotonin,

tryptophan,

> 5-

> > > HTP

> > > > or

> > > > > > an

> > > > > > > > > SSRI),

> > > > > > > > > > they drink less alcohol. Rats that have been

bred

> to

> > > > prefer

> > > > > > > > > drinking

> > > > > > > > > > alcohol to water have been found to have reduced

> > > > serotonin

> > > > > > > > > activity

> > > > > > > > > > compared with normal rats (Pihl, et al., 1993).

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Human studies have consistently demonstrated

> reduced

> > > > > alcohol

> > > > > > > > > intake

> > > > > > > > > > among various groups, including social drinkers

and

> > > > alcohol-

> > > > > > > > > dependent

> > > > > > > > > > males, taking SSRIs (Pihl, et al., 1993).

> Alcoholics

> > > > have

> > > > > > also

> > > > > > > > > been

> > > > > > > > > > shown to have reduced serotonin activity as

> > indicated

> > > by

> > > > > low

> > > > > > > > > levels

> > > > > > > > > > of 5-HIAA (LeMarquand, et al., 1994). As

alcoholics

> > > > > progress

> > > > > > > in

> > > > > > > > > their

> > > > > > > > > > illness, they become less able to control their

> > > emotions

> > > > > and

> > > > > > > > > physical

> > > > > > > > > > actions.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Pihl, et al., state that people with low

serotonin

> > are

> > > > > > > likely " to

> > > > > > > > > > appear depressed and aggressive, more driven by

> > > > appetites

> > > > > > > (more

> > > > > > > > > > motivated by food, water, sex, and drugs of

abuse),

> > > and

> > > > > more

> > > > > > > > > > impulsive (less able to control behavior) in the

> > face

> > > of

> > > > > > > threat. "

> > > > > > > > > > They may also be more likely to use aggression

to

> > > > achieve

> > > > > > > > rewards.

> > > > > > > > > > Specifically with regard to alcohol, decreased

> > > serotonin

> > > > > may

> > > > > > > lead

> > > > > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > > > an inability to terminate drinking once started.

> And

> > > if

> > > > a

> > > > > > > person

> > > > > > > > > with

> > > > > > > > > > low serotonin levels starts drinking, they

likely

> > will

> > > > > > exhibit

> > > > > > > an

> > > > > > > > > > increase in aggressive behavior.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > In some people and in some situations

medications

> > that

> > > > can

> > > > > > > > enhance

> > > > > > > > > > life can also create unhealthy dispositions. In

> > every

> > > > > > > situation,

> > > > > > > > > risk

> > > > > > > > > > must be measured versus benefit. Because of the

> > > > > serotonergic

> > > > > > > > > lowering

> > > > > > > > > > effects caused by such drugs as the " statins " ,

for

> > > some

> > > > the

> > > > > > > risks

> > > > > > > > > > outweigh the benefits. Mr. Hyde-like problems

make

> > > there

> > > > > use

> > > > > > > > > > untenable. In the case of Redux and fenfluramine

> > > > (the " fen "

> > > > > > in

> > > > > > > > fen-

> > > > > > > > > > phen), both drugs have been removed from the

market

> > in

> > > > > great

> > > > > > > part

> > > > > > > > > due

> > > > > > > > > > to the underlying anti-serotonergic effects. The

> > > actions

> > > > of

> > > > > > > > > serotonin

> > > > > > > > > > in the brain are not extremely well understood.

> What

> > > > does

> > > > > > seem

> > > > > > > > > clear

> > > > > > > > > > is that alterations of serotonin levels can have

> far-

> > > > > > reaching

> > > > > > > > > > cognitive, emotional and behavioral impact.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Cardwell C. Nuckols, MA, PhD (cnuckols@e...) is

> > > > President

> > > > > of

> > > > > > > > > > Cardwell C. Nuckols and Associates, LLC, a

national

> > > and

> > > > > > > > > international

> > > > > > > > > > training and consulting

> > > > > > > > > > organization.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Reference

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > http://faculty.riohondo.edu/mpilati/psych101/serotonin.htm

> > > > > > > > > > http://www.theamericanchiropractor.com/print.asp?

> > > > > > > > > > articleid=276 & category=4

> > > > > > > > > > http://www.life-

> enhancement.com/article_template.asp?

> > > > ID=208

> > > > > > > > > > Lidberg, L., Tuck, J., Asberg, M., Scalia-Tomba,

> G.,

> > > > > > > Bertilsson,

> > > > > > > > > L.

> > > > > > > > > > Homicide, suicide and CSF 5-HIAA. Acta Psychiatr

> > > Scand.

> > > > > > > > > 1985;71:230-

> > > > > > > > > > 236.

> > > > > > > > > > Murdoch D, Pihl R, Ross D. Alcohol and crimes of

> > > > violence:

> > > > > > > > present

> > > > > > > > > > issues. Int J Addict. 1990;25:1065-1081.

> > > > > > > > > > Penttinen J. Hypothesis: low serum cholesterol,

> > > suicide,

> > > > > and

> > > > > > > > > > interleukin-2. Am. J Epidemiol. 1995;141:716-718.

> > > > > > > > > > Pihl R, J. Alcohol, serotonin and

> > aggression.

> > > > > > Alcohol

> > > > > > > > > Health

> > > > > > > > > > Res World. 1993;17:113-117.

> > > > > > > > > > Placidi, G. P., M. A. Oquendo, K. M. Malone, Y.

Y.

> > > > Huang,

> > > > > S.

> > > > > > > P.

> > > > > > > > > > Ellis, and J. J. Mann, Biological Psychiatry,

Vol.

> > 50,

> > > > No.

> > > > > > 10,

> > > > > > > > > > November 15, 2001, 783-91.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > FAIR USE NOTICE

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > This email contains copyrighted material the use

of

> > > > which

> > > > > > has

> > > > > > > not

> > > > > > > > > > always been specifically authorized by the

> copyright

> > > > owner.

> > > > > > I

> > > > > > > am

> > > > > > > > > > making such material available in my efforts to

> > > advance

> > > > > > > > > understanding

> > > > > > > > > > of environmental, political, human rights,

> economic,

> > > > > > > democracy,

> > > > > > > > > > scientific, and social justice issues, etc.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > I believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any

such

> > > > > > > copyrighted

> > > > > > > > > > material as provided for in section 107 of the

US

> > > > Copyright

> > > > > > > Law.

> > > > > > > > > In

> > > > > > > > > > accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the

> > > > material

> > > > > in

> > > > > > > this

> > > > > > > > > > email is distributed without profit to those who

> > have

> > > > > > > expressed a

> > > > > > > > > > prior interest in receiving the included

> information

> > > > > > > > > > for research and educational purposes. For more

> > > > information

> > > > > > go

> > > > > > > > to:

> > > > > > > > > > http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml

> > > > > > > > > > If you wish to use copyrighted material from

this

> > > update

> > > > > for

> > > > > > > > > purposes

> > > > > > > > > > of your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must

> > obtain

> > > > > > > permission

> > > > > > > > > > from the copyright owner.

> > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

December 27, 2005

" To my

knowledge, based on the links I've posted, there IS a blood test for

serotonin, but not accurate enough to justify medicating someone for

mood and emotional issues. :)Sharon "

Can the links direct to a site that gives a " refrence level " for the

serotonin thus measured. ?

I think not

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > I would like to know how they are measuring

> > > Serotonin

> > > > in

> > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > brain

> > > > > > > > > > or

> > > > > > > > > > > body.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > john

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Serotonin and Aggression: " The Dr. Jekyll and

> Mr.

> > > Hyde

> > > > > > > Effect "

> > > > > > > > By

> > > > > > > > > > > Cardwell C. Nuckols, PhD

> > > > > > > > > > > Louis son's The Strange Case of

Dr.

> > > > Jekyll

> > > > > and

> > > > > > > > Mr.

> > > > > > > > > > Hyde

> > > > > > > > > > > demonstrates that " good " and " evil " can exist

> > within

> > > a

> > > > > > > single

> > > > > > > > > > person.

> > > > > > > > > > > As you might remember, Dr. Jekyll ingests a

> formula

> > > > and

> > > > > is

> > > > > > > > > > > transformed from a mild-mannered English

> physician

> > > > into

> > > > > an

> > > > > > > > > > > antisocial, violent criminal.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Any formula that interferes with the actions

of

> > > > > serotonin

> > > > > > in

> > > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > > > brain can bring about changes that resemble

> > Jekyll's

> > > > > > > > > > transformation

> > > > > > > > > > > to Hyde. While less dramatic than the Mr. Hyde

> > > effect,

> > > > > > > > serotonin

> > > > > > > > > > > deficiency can create tendencies toward

anxiety,

> > > > > > depression,

> > > > > > > > out-

> > > > > > > > > > of-

> > > > > > > > > > > control impulsivity, and violence toward self

> and

> > > > > others.

> > > > > > > > > > Considering

> > > > > > > > > > > our current understanding of neurochemistry,

> > > Jekyll's

> > > > > > > formula

> > > > > > > > may

> > > > > > > > > > > well have contained a potent anti-serotonergic

> drug

> > > > > > > > > > (http://www.life-

> > > > > > > > > > > enhancement.com/article_template.asp?ID=208).

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Researchers have found that violence related

to

> low

> > > > > > > serotonin

> > > > > > > > > > levels

> > > > > > > > > > > can be either inner- or outer-directed. P.

> Placidi

> > > and

> > > > > > > > colleagues

> > > > > > > > > > > studied 93 individuals suffering from

> depression.

> > > > These

> > > > > > > > > > researchers

> > > > > > > > > > > found that a higher level of aggression was

> > strongly

> > > > > > > > associated

> > > > > > > > > > with

> > > > > > > > > > > lower cerebrospinal fluid levels of 5-

> > > > hydroxyindolacetic

> > > > > > > acid

> > > > > > > > (5-

> > > > > > > > > > > HIAA). 5-HIAA is a major metabolite of

> serotonin.

> > > > Their

> > > > > > data

> > > > > > > > also

> > > > > > > > > > > revealed that lower levels of 5-HIAA were

found

> in

> > > > > > > successful

> > > > > > > > > > suicide

> > > > > > > > > > > attempters (Placidi, et al., 2001).

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > A group of Danish scientists measured levels

of

> 5-

> > > HIAA

> > > > > in

> > > > > > 16

> > > > > > > > men

> > > > > > > > > > > convicted of homicide, 22 men who attempted

> suicide

> > > > and

> > > > > 39

> > > > > > > > > healthy

> > > > > > > > > > > male controls. The lowest levels of 5-HIAA

were

> > > found

> > > > in

> > > > > > > those

> > > > > > > > > men

> > > > > > > > > > > who had killed a sexual partner or had

attempted

> > > > suicide

> > > > > > > > > (Lidberg,

> > > > > > > > > > et

> > > > > > > > > > > al., 1985).

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Many studies have found that low serotonin

> levels

> > > are

> > > > > > linked

> > > > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > > > > aggression, alcohol abuse and mental illness.

At

> > the

> > > > > > > National

> > > > > > > > > > > Institutes of Health (NIH) Primate Center in

> > > > > Poolesville,

> > > > > > > Md.,

> > > > > > > > > > > researchers Suomi and Higley studied the link

> > > between

> > > > > > > > behavior,

> > > > > > > > > > > serotonin and environment in rhesus monkeys.

> They

> > > > found

> > > > > > that

> > > > > > > 5

> > > > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > > > 10

> > > > > > > > > > > percent of monkeys in the wild and laboratory

> > > > > populations

> > > > > > > have

> > > > > > > > > > > elevated impulsivity and aggression. These

> monkeys

> > > > also

> > > > > > have

> > > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > > > lowest levels of serotonin when compared to

the

> > rest

> > > > of

> > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > > > population. In the lab, they're antisocial,

> > > > > inappropriately

> > > > > > > > > > > aggressive and will drink to intoxication. In

> the

> > > > wild,

> > > > > > > these

> > > > > > > > > > monkeys

> > > > > > > > > > > seek out danger. They will make risky leaps

> between

> > > > > trees

> > > > > > > that

> > > > > > > > > > other

> > > > > > > > > > > monkeys would never attempt

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> (http://faculty.riohondo.edu/mpilati/psych101/serotonin.htm).

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > It has been more than one hundred years since

> > > > > son's

> > > > > > > > > literary

> > > > > > > > > > > masterpiece. In recent years, pharmaceutical

> > > companies

> > > > > have

> > > > > > > > > > created a

> > > > > > > > > > > number of pharmacological agents that can

> produce

> > > > Jekyll-

> > > > > > and-

> > > > > > > > Hyde-

> > > > > > > > > > > like changes.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > The appetite-suppressors fenfluramine

(Pondimin

> and

> > > > > > Ionamin)

> > > > > > > > and

> > > > > > > > > > > dexfenfluramine (Redux) both act by depleting

> > > > serotonin

> > > > > and

> > > > > > > > may

> > > > > > > > > > > permanently destroy serotonergic neurons in

the

> > > brain.

> > > > > Even

> > > > > > > > > weight-

> > > > > > > > > > > loss diets that are extremely low in fat have

> > caused

> > > > > Hyde-

> > > > > > > like

> > > > > > > > > > > behavior patterns in some people.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Severe irritability and aggression have been

> > > > attributed

> > > > > to

> > > > > > > > > > > cholesterol-lowering medications

> called " statins "

> > > > > > > > > > > (www.americanchiropractor.com/print.asp?

> > > > > > > > > articleid=276 & category=4).

> > > > > > > > > > > Among the best studied of the " statins " are

> Lopid,

> > > > > > Questran,

> > > > > > > > > > Lescol,

> > > > > > > > > > > Mevacor, Zocor and Pravachol. In another

study,

> > > > patients

> > > > > > > with

> > > > > > > > low

> > > > > > > > > > > cholesterol showed hypersensitivity to

detecting

> > > anger

> > > > > and

> > > > > > > > > sadness

> > > > > > > > > > in

> > > > > > > > > > > themselves (Penttinen, 1995). Low serotonin

> levels

> > > > > appear

> > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > be

> > > > > > > > > > > involved.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > The relationship between alcohol, depression,

> and

> > > > > violence

> > > > > > > is

> > > > > > > > > well

> > > > > > > > > > > known. A high proportion of suicide victims

are

> > > found

> > > > to

> > > > > > > have

> > > > > > > > > been

> > > > > > > > > > > drinking heavily at the time of their death.

> > > > Similarly,

> > > > > > > > > > perpetrators

> > > > > > > > > > > of violent crimes are often intoxicated when

> they

> > > > commit

> > > > > a

> > > > > > > > crime

> > > > > > > > > > > (Murdoch, et al., 1990).

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > In animal studies, some drugs that decrease

> > > serotonin

> > > > > > > activity

> > > > > > > > > > > increase alcohol consumption. When animals are

> > given

> > > > > drugs

> > > > > > > > that

> > > > > > > > > > > enhance serotonin activity (serotonin,

> tryptophan,

> > 5-

> > > > HTP

> > > > > or

> > > > > > > an

> > > > > > > > > > SSRI),

> > > > > > > > > > > they drink less alcohol. Rats that have been

> bred

> > to

> > > > > prefer

> > > > > > > > > > drinking

> > > > > > > > > > > alcohol to water have been found to have

reduced

> > > > > serotonin

> > > > > > > > > > activity

> > > > > > > > > > > compared with normal rats (Pihl, et al., 1993).

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Human studies have consistently demonstrated

> > reduced

> > > > > > alcohol

> > > > > > > > > > intake

> > > > > > > > > > > among various groups, including social

drinkers

> and

> > > > > alcohol-

> > > > > > > > > > dependent

> > > > > > > > > > > males, taking SSRIs (Pihl, et al., 1993).

> > Alcoholics

> > > > > have

> > > > > > > also

> > > > > > > > > > been

> > > > > > > > > > > shown to have reduced serotonin activity as

> > > indicated

> > > > by

> > > > > > low

> > > > > > > > > > levels

> > > > > > > > > > > of 5-HIAA (LeMarquand, et al., 1994). As

> alcoholics

> > > > > > progress

> > > > > > > > in

> > > > > > > > > > their

> > > > > > > > > > > illness, they become less able to control

their

> > > > emotions

> > > > > > and

> > > > > > > > > > physical

> > > > > > > > > > > actions.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Pihl, et al., state that people with low

> serotonin

> > > are

> > > > > > > > likely " to

> > > > > > > > > > > appear depressed and aggressive, more driven

by

> > > > > appetites

> > > > > > > > (more

> > > > > > > > > > > motivated by food, water, sex, and drugs of

> abuse),

> > > > and

> > > > > > more

> > > > > > > > > > > impulsive (less able to control behavior) in

the

> > > face

> > > > of

> > > > > > > > threat. "

> > > > > > > > > > > They may also be more likely to use aggression

> to

> > > > > achieve

> > > > > > > > > rewards.

> > > > > > > > > > > Specifically with regard to alcohol, decreased

> > > > serotonin

> > > > > > may

> > > > > > > > lead

> > > > > > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > > > > an inability to terminate drinking once

started.

> > And

> > > > if

> > > > > a

> > > > > > > > person

> > > > > > > > > > with

> > > > > > > > > > > low serotonin levels starts drinking, they

> likely

> > > will

> > > > > > > exhibit

> > > > > > > > an

> > > > > > > > > > > increase in aggressive behavior.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > In some people and in some situations

> medications

> > > that

> > > > > can

> > > > > > > > > enhance

> > > > > > > > > > > life can also create unhealthy dispositions.

In

> > > every

> > > > > > > > situation,

> > > > > > > > > > risk

> > > > > > > > > > > must be measured versus benefit. Because of

the

> > > > > > serotonergic

> > > > > > > > > > lowering

> > > > > > > > > > > effects caused by such drugs as the " statins " ,

> for

> > > > some

> > > > > the

> > > > > > > > risks

> > > > > > > > > > > outweigh the benefits. Mr. Hyde-like problems

> make

> > > > there

> > > > > > use

> > > > > > > > > > > untenable. In the case of Redux and

fenfluramine

> > > > > (the " fen "

> > > > > > > in

> > > > > > > > > fen-

> > > > > > > > > > > phen), both drugs have been removed from the

> market

> > > in

> > > > > > great

> > > > > > > > part

> > > > > > > > > > due

> > > > > > > > > > > to the underlying anti-serotonergic effects.

The

> > > > actions

> > > > > of

> > > > > > > > > > serotonin

> > > > > > > > > > > in the brain are not extremely well

understood.

> > What

> > > > > does

> > > > > > > seem

> > > > > > > > > > clear

> > > > > > > > > > > is that alterations of serotonin levels can

have

> > far-

> > > > > > > reaching

> > > > > > > > > > > cognitive, emotional and behavioral impact.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Cardwell C. Nuckols, MA, PhD (cnuckols@e...)

is

> > > > > President

> > > > > > of

> > > > > > > > > > > Cardwell C. Nuckols and Associates, LLC, a

> national

> > > > and

> > > > > > > > > > international

> > > > > > > > > > > training and consulting

> > > > > > > > > > > organization.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Reference

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > http://faculty.riohondo.edu/mpilati/psych101/serotonin.htm

> > > > > > > > > > >

http://www.theamericanchiropractor.com/print.asp?

> > > > > > > > > > > articleid=276 & category=4

> > > > > > > > > > > http://www.life-

> > enhancement.com/article_template.asp?

> > > > > ID=208

> > > > > > > > > > > Lidberg, L., Tuck, J., Asberg, M., Scalia-

Tomba,

> > G.,

> > > > > > > > Bertilsson,

> > > > > > > > > > L.

> > > > > > > > > > > Homicide, suicide and CSF 5-HIAA. Acta

Psychiatr

> > > > Scand.

> > > > > > > > > > 1985;71:230-

> > > > > > > > > > > 236.

> > > > > > > > > > > Murdoch D, Pihl R, Ross D. Alcohol and crimes

of

> > > > > violence:

> > > > > > > > > present

> > > > > > > > > > > issues. Int J Addict. 1990;25:1065-1081.

> > > > > > > > > > > Penttinen J. Hypothesis: low serum

cholesterol,

> > > > suicide,

> > > > > > and

> > > > > > > > > > > interleukin-2. Am. J Epidemiol. 1995;141:716-

718.

> > > > > > > > > > > Pihl R, J. Alcohol, serotonin and

> > > aggression.

> > > > > > > Alcohol

> > > > > > > > > > Health

> > > > > > > > > > > Res World. 1993;17:113-117.

> > > > > > > > > > > Placidi, G. P., M. A. Oquendo, K. M. Malone,

Y.

> Y.

> > > > > Huang,

> > > > > > S.

> > > > > > > > P.

> > > > > > > > > > > Ellis, and J. J. Mann, Biological Psychiatry,

> Vol.

> > > 50,

> > > > > No.

> > > > > > > 10,

> > > > > > > > > > > November 15, 2001, 783-91.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > FAIR USE NOTICE

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > This email contains copyrighted material the

use

> of

> > > > > which

> > > > > > > has

> > > > > > > > not

> > > > > > > > > > > always been specifically authorized by the

> > copyright

> > > > > owner.

> > > > > > > I

> > > > > > > > am

> > > > > > > > > > > making such material available in my efforts

to

> > > > advance

> > > > > > > > > > understanding

> > > > > > > > > > > of environmental, political, human rights,

> > economic,

> > > > > > > > democracy,

> > > > > > > > > > > scientific, and social justice issues, etc.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > I believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any

> such

> > > > > > > > copyrighted

> > > > > > > > > > > material as provided for in section 107 of the

> US

> > > > > Copyright

> > > > > > > > Law.

> > > > > > > > > > In

> > > > > > > > > > > accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107,

the

> > > > > material

> > > > > > in

> > > > > > > > this

> > > > > > > > > > > email is distributed without profit to those

who

> > > have

> > > > > > > > expressed a

> > > > > > > > > > > prior interest in receiving the included

> > information

> > > > > > > > > > > for research and educational purposes. For

more

> > > > > information

> > > > > > > go

> > > > > > > > > to:

> > > > > > > > > > > http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml

> > > > > > > > > > > If you wish to use copyrighted material from

> this

> > > > update

> > > > > > for

> > > > > > > > > > purposes

> > > > > > > > > > > of your own that go beyond 'fair use', you

must

> > > obtain

> > > > > > > > permission

> > > > > > > > > > > from the copyright owner.

> > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

December 27, 2005

" To my

knowledge, based on the links I've posted, there IS a blood test for

serotonin, but not accurate enough to justify medicating someone for

mood and emotional issues. :)Sharon "

Can the links direct to a site that gives a " refrence level " for the

serotonin thus measured. ?

I think not

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > I would like to know how they are measuring

> > > Serotonin

> > > > in

> > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > brain

> > > > > > > > > > or

> > > > > > > > > > > body.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > john

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Serotonin and Aggression: " The Dr. Jekyll and

> Mr.

> > > Hyde

> > > > > > > Effect "

> > > > > > > > By

> > > > > > > > > > > Cardwell C. Nuckols, PhD

> > > > > > > > > > > Louis son's The Strange Case of

Dr.

> > > > Jekyll

> > > > > and

> > > > > > > > Mr.

> > > > > > > > > > Hyde

> > > > > > > > > > > demonstrates that " good " and " evil " can exist

> > within

> > > a

> > > > > > > single

> > > > > > > > > > person.

> > > > > > > > > > > As you might remember, Dr. Jekyll ingests a

> formula

> > > > and

> > > > > is

> > > > > > > > > > > transformed from a mild-mannered English

> physician

> > > > into

> > > > > an

> > > > > > > > > > > antisocial, violent criminal.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Any formula that interferes with the actions

of

> > > > > serotonin

> > > > > > in

> > > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > > > brain can bring about changes that resemble

> > Jekyll's

> > > > > > > > > > transformation

> > > > > > > > > > > to Hyde. While less dramatic than the Mr. Hyde

> > > effect,

> > > > > > > > serotonin

> > > > > > > > > > > deficiency can create tendencies toward

anxiety,

> > > > > > depression,

> > > > > > > > out-

> > > > > > > > > > of-

> > > > > > > > > > > control impulsivity, and violence toward self

> and

> > > > > others.

> > > > > > > > > > Considering

> > > > > > > > > > > our current understanding of neurochemistry,

> > > Jekyll's

> > > > > > > formula

> > > > > > > > may

> > > > > > > > > > > well have contained a potent anti-serotonergic

> drug

> > > > > > > > > > (http://www.life-

> > > > > > > > > > > enhancement.com/article_template.asp?ID=208).

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Researchers have found that violence related

to

> low

> > > > > > > serotonin

> > > > > > > > > > levels

> > > > > > > > > > > can be either inner- or outer-directed. P.

> Placidi

> > > and

> > > > > > > > colleagues

> > > > > > > > > > > studied 93 individuals suffering from

> depression.

> > > > These

> > > > > > > > > > researchers

> > > > > > > > > > > found that a higher level of aggression was

> > strongly

> > > > > > > > associated

> > > > > > > > > > with

> > > > > > > > > > > lower cerebrospinal fluid levels of 5-

> > > > hydroxyindolacetic

> > > > > > > acid

> > > > > > > > (5-

> > > > > > > > > > > HIAA). 5-HIAA is a major metabolite of

> serotonin.

> > > > Their

> > > > > > data

> > > > > > > > also

> > > > > > > > > > > revealed that lower levels of 5-HIAA were

found

> in

> > > > > > > successful

> > > > > > > > > > suicide

> > > > > > > > > > > attempters (Placidi, et al., 2001).

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > A group of Danish scientists measured levels

of

> 5-

> > > HIAA

> > > > > in

> > > > > > 16

> > > > > > > > men

> > > > > > > > > > > convicted of homicide, 22 men who attempted

> suicide

> > > > and

> > > > > 39

> > > > > > > > > healthy

> > > > > > > > > > > male controls. The lowest levels of 5-HIAA

were

> > > found

> > > > in

> > > > > > > those

> > > > > > > > > men

> > > > > > > > > > > who had killed a sexual partner or had

attempted

> > > > suicide

> > > > > > > > > (Lidberg,

> > > > > > > > > > et

> > > > > > > > > > > al., 1985).

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Many studies have found that low serotonin

> levels

> > > are

> > > > > > linked

> > > > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > > > > aggression, alcohol abuse and mental illness.

At

> > the

> > > > > > > National

> > > > > > > > > > > Institutes of Health (NIH) Primate Center in

> > > > > Poolesville,

> > > > > > > Md.,

> > > > > > > > > > > researchers Suomi and Higley studied the link

> > > between

> > > > > > > > behavior,

> > > > > > > > > > > serotonin and environment in rhesus monkeys.

> They

> > > > found

> > > > > > that

> > > > > > > 5

> > > > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > > > 10

> > > > > > > > > > > percent of monkeys in the wild and laboratory

> > > > > populations

> > > > > > > have

> > > > > > > > > > > elevated impulsivity and aggression. These

> monkeys

> > > > also

> > > > > > have

> > > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > > > lowest levels of serotonin when compared to

the

> > rest

> > > > of

> > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > > > population. In the lab, they're antisocial,

> > > > > inappropriately

> > > > > > > > > > > aggressive and will drink to intoxication. In

> the

> > > > wild,

> > > > > > > these

> > > > > > > > > > monkeys

> > > > > > > > > > > seek out danger. They will make risky leaps

> between

> > > > > trees

> > > > > > > that

> > > > > > > > > > other

> > > > > > > > > > > monkeys would never attempt

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> (http://faculty.riohondo.edu/mpilati/psych101/serotonin.htm).

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > It has been more than one hundred years since

> > > > > son's

> > > > > > > > > literary

> > > > > > > > > > > masterpiece. In recent years, pharmaceutical

> > > companies

> > > > > have

> > > > > > > > > > created a

> > > > > > > > > > > number of pharmacological agents that can

> produce

> > > > Jekyll-

> > > > > > and-

> > > > > > > > Hyde-

> > > > > > > > > > > like changes.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > The appetite-suppressors fenfluramine

(Pondimin

> and

> > > > > > Ionamin)

> > > > > > > > and

> > > > > > > > > > > dexfenfluramine (Redux) both act by depleting

> > > > serotonin

> > > > > and

> > > > > > > > may

> > > > > > > > > > > permanently destroy serotonergic neurons in

the

> > > brain.

> > > > > Even

> > > > > > > > > weight-

> > > > > > > > > > > loss diets that are extremely low in fat have

> > caused

> > > > > Hyde-

> > > > > > > like

> > > > > > > > > > > behavior patterns in some people.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Severe irritability and aggression have been

> > > > attributed

> > > > > to

> > > > > > > > > > > cholesterol-lowering medications

> called " statins "

> > > > > > > > > > > (www.americanchiropractor.com/print.asp?

> > > > > > > > > articleid=276 & category=4).

> > > > > > > > > > > Among the best studied of the " statins " are

> Lopid,

> > > > > > Questran,

> > > > > > > > > > Lescol,

> > > > > > > > > > > Mevacor, Zocor and Pravachol. In another

study,

> > > > patients

> > > > > > > with

> > > > > > > > low

> > > > > > > > > > > cholesterol showed hypersensitivity to

detecting

> > > anger

> > > > > and

> > > > > > > > > sadness

> > > > > > > > > > in

> > > > > > > > > > > themselves (Penttinen, 1995). Low serotonin

> levels

> > > > > appear

> > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > be

> > > > > > > > > > > involved.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > The relationship between alcohol, depression,

> and

> > > > > violence

> > > > > > > is

> > > > > > > > > well

> > > > > > > > > > > known. A high proportion of suicide victims

are

> > > found

> > > > to

> > > > > > > have

> > > > > > > > > been

> > > > > > > > > > > drinking heavily at the time of their death.

> > > > Similarly,

> > > > > > > > > > perpetrators

> > > > > > > > > > > of violent crimes are often intoxicated when

> they

> > > > commit

> > > > > a

> > > > > > > > crime

> > > > > > > > > > > (Murdoch, et al., 1990).

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > In animal studies, some drugs that decrease

> > > serotonin

> > > > > > > activity

> > > > > > > > > > > increase alcohol consumption. When animals are

> > given

> > > > > drugs

> > > > > > > > that

> > > > > > > > > > > enhance serotonin activity (serotonin,

> tryptophan,

> > 5-

> > > > HTP

> > > > > or

> > > > > > > an

> > > > > > > > > > SSRI),

> > > > > > > > > > > they drink less alcohol. Rats that have been

> bred

> > to

> > > > > prefer

> > > > > > > > > > drinking

> > > > > > > > > > > alcohol to water have been found to have

reduced

> > > > > serotonin

> > > > > > > > > > activity

> > > > > > > > > > > compared with normal rats (Pihl, et al., 1993).

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Human studies have consistently demonstrated

> > reduced

> > > > > > alcohol

> > > > > > > > > > intake

> > > > > > > > > > > among various groups, including social

drinkers

> and

> > > > > alcohol-

> > > > > > > > > > dependent

> > > > > > > > > > > males, taking SSRIs (Pihl, et al., 1993).

> > Alcoholics

> > > > > have

> > > > > > > also

> > > > > > > > > > been

> > > > > > > > > > > shown to have reduced serotonin activity as

> > > indicated

> > > > by

> > > > > > low

> > > > > > > > > > levels

> > > > > > > > > > > of 5-HIAA (LeMarquand, et al., 1994). As

> alcoholics

> > > > > > progress

> > > > > > > > in

> > > > > > > > > > their

> > > > > > > > > > > illness, they become less able to control

their

> > > > emotions

> > > > > > and

> > > > > > > > > > physical

> > > > > > > > > > > actions.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Pihl, et al., state that people with low

> serotonin

> > > are

> > > > > > > > likely " to

> > > > > > > > > > > appear depressed and aggressive, more driven

by

> > > > > appetites

> > > > > > > > (more

> > > > > > > > > > > motivated by food, water, sex, and drugs of

> abuse),

> > > > and

> > > > > > more

> > > > > > > > > > > impulsive (less able to control behavior) in

the

> > > face

> > > > of

> > > > > > > > threat. "

> > > > > > > > > > > They may also be more likely to use aggression

> to

> > > > > achieve

> > > > > > > > > rewards.

> > > > > > > > > > > Specifically with regard to alcohol, decreased

> > > > serotonin

> > > > > > may

> > > > > > > > lead

> > > > > > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > > > > an inability to terminate drinking once

started.

> > And

> > > > if

> > > > > a

> > > > > > > > person

> > > > > > > > > > with

> > > > > > > > > > > low serotonin levels starts drinking, they

> likely

> > > will

> > > > > > > exhibit

> > > > > > > > an

> > > > > > > > > > > increase in aggressive behavior.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > In some people and in some situations

> medications

> > > that

> > > > > can

> > > > > > > > > enhance

> > > > > > > > > > > life can also create unhealthy dispositions.

In

> > > every

> > > > > > > > situation,

> > > > > > > > > > risk

> > > > > > > > > > > must be measured versus benefit. Because of

the

> > > > > > serotonergic

> > > > > > > > > > lowering

> > > > > > > > > > > effects caused by such drugs as the " statins " ,

> for

> > > > some

> > > > > the

> > > > > > > > risks

> > > > > > > > > > > outweigh the benefits. Mr. Hyde-like problems

> make

> > > > there

> > > > > > use

> > > > > > > > > > > untenable. In the case of Redux and

fenfluramine

> > > > > (the " fen "

> > > > > > > in

> > > > > > > > > fen-

> > > > > > > > > > > phen), both drugs have been removed from the

> market

> > > in

> > > > > > great

> > > > > > > > part

> > > > > > > > > > due

> > > > > > > > > > > to the underlying anti-serotonergic effects.

The

> > > > actions

> > > > > of

> > > > > > > > > > serotonin

> > > > > > > > > > > in the brain are not extremely well

understood.

> > What

> > > > > does

> > > > > > > seem

> > > > > > > > > > clear

> > > > > > > > > > > is that alterations of serotonin levels can

have

> > far-

> > > > > > > reaching

> > > > > > > > > > > cognitive, emotional and behavioral impact.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Cardwell C. Nuckols, MA, PhD (cnuckols@e...)

is

> > > > > President

> > > > > > of

> > > > > > > > > > > Cardwell C. Nuckols and Associates, LLC, a

> national

> > > > and

> > > > > > > > > > international

> > > > > > > > > > > training and consulting

> > > > > > > > > > > organization.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Reference

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > http://faculty.riohondo.edu/mpilati/psych101/serotonin.htm

> > > > > > > > > > >

http://www.theamericanchiropractor.com/print.asp?

> > > > > > > > > > > articleid=276 & category=4

> > > > > > > > > > > http://www.life-

> > enhancement.com/article_template.asp?

> > > > > ID=208

> > > > > > > > > > > Lidberg, L., Tuck, J., Asberg, M., Scalia-

Tomba,

> > G.,

> > > > > > > > Bertilsson,

> > > > > > > > > > L.

> > > > > > > > > > > Homicide, suicide and CSF 5-HIAA. Acta

Psychiatr

> > > > Scand.

> > > > > > > > > > 1985;71:230-

> > > > > > > > > > > 236.

> > > > > > > > > > > Murdoch D, Pihl R, Ross D. Alcohol and crimes

of

> > > > > violence:

> > > > > > > > > present

> > > > > > > > > > > issues. Int J Addict. 1990;25:1065-1081.

> > > > > > > > > > > Penttinen J. Hypothesis: low serum

cholesterol,

> > > > suicide,

> > > > > > and

> > > > > > > > > > > interleukin-2. Am. J Epidemiol. 1995;141:716-

718.

> > > > > > > > > > > Pihl R, J. Alcohol, serotonin and

> > > aggression.

> > > > > > > Alcohol

> > > > > > > > > > Health

> > > > > > > > > > > Res World. 1993;17:113-117.

> > > > > > > > > > > Placidi, G. P., M. A. Oquendo, K. M. Malone,

Y.

> Y.

> > > > > Huang,

> > > > > > S.

> > > > > > > > P.

> > > > > > > > > > > Ellis, and J. J. Mann, Biological Psychiatry,

> Vol.

> > > 50,

> > > > > No.

> > > > > > > 10,

> > > > > > > > > > > November 15, 2001, 783-91.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > FAIR USE NOTICE

> > > > > > > > > > >

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> of

> > > > > which

> > > > > > > has

> > > > > > > > not

> > > > > > > > > > > always been specifically authorized by the

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> > > > > owner.

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> > > > > > > > am

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> > > > advance

> > > > > > > > > > understanding

> > > > > > > > > > > of environmental, political, human rights,

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> >

>

December 27, 2005

>

> " However, my question was concerning your previous statement

> that: " there is no " blood " test for serotonin because Brain serotonin

> (which is what ssri's alter) is only measureable with a brain

> sample.. not something you can do to a live person. "

>

> I was trying to determine if your above statment was correct. To my

> knowledge, based on the links I've posted, there IS a blood test for

> serotonin, but not accurate enough to justify medicating someone for

> mood and emotional issues. :)Sharon "

Yes, there is a blood test, but it is not accurate nor definitive as it

relates to depression. The current serotonin blood test is used to

determine the presence of a specific condition, carcinoid syndromes..

not chronically low serotonin as the drug companies claim.

Dr. Healy talks about where the " low serotonin " theory came from. It

was done with rats, not with humans.

December 27, 2005

>

> " However, my question was concerning your previous statement

> that: " there is no " blood " test for serotonin because Brain serotonin

> (which is what ssri's alter) is only measureable with a brain

> sample.. not something you can do to a live person. "

>

> I was trying to determine if your above statment was correct. To my

> knowledge, based on the links I've posted, there IS a blood test for

> serotonin, but not accurate enough to justify medicating someone for

> mood and emotional issues. :)Sharon "

Yes, there is a blood test, but it is not accurate nor definitive as it

relates to depression. The current serotonin blood test is used to

determine the presence of a specific condition, carcinoid syndromes..

not chronically low serotonin as the drug companies claim.

Dr. Healy talks about where the " low serotonin " theory came from. It

was done with rats, not with humans.

December 27, 2005

Hi Lsyorke and Glitter, after googling and ing, I haven't been

able to find anything to support both of your statements

concerning " brain samples " , nor have any legitimate sources been

posted here in the group.

Supposedly, the carcidnoid turmors mentioned in the two websites I

posted, are just ONE of many things a serotonin test can detect. So,

I'll have to question the " brain sample " theory until proven

otherwise. Here's the thing....I always like to know the facts

surrounding what I'm told, to avoid receiving inaccurate

information. The medical community has taught me that lesson. Also,

without sources and facts, I'm not able to intelligently discuss

this issue with others, without having to say, I read it by someone

in a public group. That doesn't hold much credibility without

sources.

Information has been posted to explain why serotonin levels change

and fluctuate, but nothing which supports the theory that BRAIN

TISSUE IS THE ONLY TRUE WAY TO MEASURE SEROTONIN LEVELS. May I ask

where the two of you obtained this information? Or was it just

mentioned by others here in the group? Although I question

the " brain sample " theory, until reputable sources are listed, I do

agree that based on the nature of serotonin, a test alone would not

be enough to justify medicating someone for mood and emotional

issues. I'm only asking for ONE source that validates the above, and

I'll follow up from there. Thanks, Sharon

> Yes, there is a blood test, but it is not accurate nor definitive

as it

> relates to depression. The current serotonin blood test is used to

> determine the presence of a specific condition, carcinoid

syndromes..

> not chronically low serotonin as the drug companies claim.

>

> Dr. Healy talks about where the " low serotonin " theory came from.

It

> was done with rats, not with humans.

>

December 27, 2005

It seems to me the validaty is in the actions of the medical

professionals. If a simple test, or even an expensive test, were

available to prove their theory of a chemical imbalance, they would

be using it instead of medicating thousands of people without first

doing the proper testing. And it still wouldn't matter if they could

measure a person's serotonin level since they have no idea what the

proper level is in any given person. AND if you are under the

mistaken impression that people ARE tested before being given

medication, I can assure you they aren't. I, for one, was never

tested, and I know for a fact at least a dozen others who weren't

either. I'll go back to an earlier statement. If you go to your

doctor for a headache, he/she won't give you chemo and/or radiation

to shrink a brain tumor without first doing the proper testing to

make sure that is what is causing you headache.

> > Yes, there is a blood test, but it is not accurate nor definitive

> as it

> > relates to depression. The current serotonin blood test is used

to

> > determine the presence of a specific condition, carcinoid

> syndromes..

> > not chronically low serotonin as the drug companies claim.

> >

> > Dr. Healy talks about where the " low serotonin " theory came from.

> It

> > was done with rats, not with humans.

> >

>

December 27, 2005

Sharon, I have it buried in my computer somewhere. I'll look for it.

But take away the " test " aspect, and look beyond it. Lets say you

have low serotonin.. you take an ssri which will elevate your

serotonin and also drop your dopamine. Now, how much do you take to

achieve a " normal " level. 10mg, 20mg 50mg??? How much is needed to

restore those " percieved " low levels?? Why were they low in the first

place.. time of day?, diet?, stress?. So now your elevating a

neurotransmitter with NO control. So you start with 10mg and the body

gets used to that dose... so you increase it to 20mg... and the body

gets used to it again(because the body is always going to try and put

those levels back to where they were). What happens when the dose is

toxically high and still doesn't " work " ??? Where does that leave you?

This isn't about low serotonin levels only, its about the other body

functions that are being altered at the same time. YOu cannot change

a neurotransmitter without effecting alot of other functions in the

body. The chemical imbalance theory makes it sound all so simple,

when in reality you're messing with a system that likes homeostasis

and will constantly try to achieve it.When you mess with one major

neurotransmitter you are going to throw others out of kilter.

Akasthesia, weight gain, suicidality, birth defects, hypertension,

blood thinning etc... are all caused by ssri's. This is NOT a matter

of " fixing " one neurotransmitter and problem solved. It opens a

pandoras box of other problems.

I'll look for that information I believe that it was Dr. Healy or

Glenmullen who documented it.

> > Yes, there is a blood test, but it is not accurate nor definitive

> as it

> > relates to depression. The current serotonin blood test is used

to

> > determine the presence of a specific condition, carcinoid

> syndromes..

> > not chronically low serotonin as the drug companies claim.

> >

> > Dr. Healy talks about where the " low serotonin " theory came from.

> It

> > was done with rats, not with humans.

> >

>

December 27, 2005

Hi , my concerns were not about either of the points you

mentioned in response to my post. Despite the direct question

I've asked for " sources " , the answers continue to be evasive. *sigh*

I'm a little burned out on trying to explain. Everyone have a

peaceful evening. Sharon

> > > Yes, there is a blood test, but it is not accurate nor

definitive

> > as it

> > > relates to depression. The current serotonin blood test is

used

> to

> > > determine the presence of a specific condition, carcinoid

> > syndromes..

> > > not chronically low serotonin as the drug companies claim.

> > >

> > > Dr. Healy talks about where the " low serotonin " theory came

from.

> > It

> > > was done with rats, not with humans.

> > >

> >

>

December 27, 2005

Hi lsyorke, thank you so much. This was just in time. I was getting

ready to log off and grab a bite to eat, and would have missed your

message. I'll check later for the information. I think the groups

will be unavailable tomorrow for maintenance, so if I don't respond

immediately, it's probably because I couldn't get through. Ok,

logging off for sure this time. BTW, I understand what you mean

concerning the regulating of serotonin, and I know from experience,

the meds do more harm than good. Sharon

> > > Yes, there is a blood test, but it is not accurate nor

definitive

> > as it

> > > relates to depression. The current serotonin blood test is

used

> to

> > > determine the presence of a specific condition, carcinoid

> > syndromes..

> > > not chronically low serotonin as the drug companies claim.

> > >

> > > Dr. Healy talks about where the " low serotonin " theory came

from.

> > It

> > > was done with rats, not with humans.

> > >

> >

>

December 28, 2005

Dear Sharon,

You said:

<<However, my question was concerning your previous statement

that: " there is no " blood " test for serotonin because Brain serotonin

(which is what ssri's alter) is only measureable with a brain

sample.. not something you can do to a live person. "

I was trying to determine if your above statment was correct. To my

knowledge, based on the links I've posted, there IS a blood test for

serotonin, but not accurate enough to justify medicating someone for

mood and emotional issues. >>

** The test you cited is used to determine carcinoid tumors. The

serotonin in the gut and enterochromaffin cells are the 5-HT3 and 5-HT4

subtypes, not the 5-HT1 and 5-HT2 subtypes of the brain.

The testing of cerebrospinal fluid tests for 5-HIAA, the major metabolite

of serotonin. It does not measure serotonin itself, just the metabolite.

This is a very inaccurate way of testing serotonin levels.

It has been demonstrated that the stress of undergoing lumbar puncture

reduces serotonin metabolites almost by half for at least 3 hours. Isn't

that convenient? The spin meisters love this.

Here is the reference.

The effect of lumbar puncture stress on dopamine and serotonin metabolites

in human cerebrospinal fluid.

Hill KK, West SA, Ekhator NN, Bruce AB, Wortman MD, Baker DG, Geracioti TD

Jr.

Neurosci Lett. 1999 Nov 26;276(1):25-8.

ABSTRACT

Department of Psychiatry, University of Cincinnati Medical Center, OH 45267,

USA.

In order to examine concentrations of cerebrospinal fluid (CSF)

neurochemicals, the technique of lumbar puncture is typically used. However,

the effect of the intrinsic stress of undergoing a lumbar puncture on CSF

monoamine concentrations in humans has not yet been established. We used

lumbar puncture followed 3 h later by continuous CSF sampling to examine the

effect of lumbar puncture on levels of the dopamine and serotonin

metabolites homovanillic acid (HVA) and 5-hydroxyindoleacetic acid (5-HIAA),

respectively. Additionally, we examined the effect of lumbar puncture on the

CSF HVA to 5-HIAA ratio. Immediately post lumbar puncture, CSF

concentrations of HVA and 5-HIAA were, respectively, only 51 and 54% of the

mean levels detected hours later. However, the HVA to 5-HIAA ratio remained

stable during lumbar puncture. While HVA and 5-HIAA levels in CSF obtained

via lumbar puncture reflect highly variable responses to the stress of the

procedure, the ratio of these metabolites is unaffected.

==============================

Wikipedia editors should be tarred and feathered for this description of

serotonin:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serotonin

They don't differentiate at all between the subtypes.

As far as this other reference you sent,

http://www.chm.bris.ac.uk/motm/serotonin/depression.htm

it states:

" The most concrete evidence for the connection between serotonin and

depression is the decreased concentrations of serotonin metabolites in the

cerebrospinal fluid and brain tissues of depressed people. "

I refer you again to the article above on decreased serotonin

metabolites as a result of the stress when undergoing lumbar puncture.

In a later email you said:

<<Information has been posted to explain why serotonin levels change

and fluctuate, but nothing which supports the theory that BRAIN

TISSUE IS THE ONLY TRUE WAY TO MEASURE SEROTONIN LEVELS. May I ask

where the two of you obtained this information? Or was it just

mentioned by others here in the group? Although I question

the " brain sample " theory, until reputable sources are listed, I do

agree that based on the nature of serotonin, a test alone would not

be enough to justify medicating someone for mood and emotional

issues. I'm only asking for ONE source that validates the above, and

I'll follow up from there. Thanks>>

** People are stating a fact but they can't tell you why. That's all.

It all go back to the subtypes of serotonin. The test your mother had tests

serotonin that is NEVER in the brain. The lumbar puncture test measures

serotonin METABOLITES, not serotonin. Glitter said this. Of course, the

measurement cannot be meaningful considering the finding in the abstract

above.

Here is an absrat describing how serotonin from the brain is measured. It

speaks of where serotoni is located. By these locations alone it should be

obvious that the subtypes of serotoni present in the brain cannot be

measdured in a live person.

Higher Expression of Serotonin 5-HT2A Receptors in the Postmortem Brains of

Teenage Suicide Victims

Ghanshyam N. Pandey, Ph.D., Yogesh Dwivedi, Ph.D., Hooriyah S. Rizavi, M.S.,

Xinguo Ren, M.D., Subhash C. Pandey, Ph.D., Pesold, Ph.D.,

linda C. , M.D., R. Conley, M.D., and Carol A. Tamminga,

M.D.

Am J Psychiatry 159:419-429, March 2002

ABSTRACT

OBJECTIVE: Abnormalities of serotonin (5-HT) receptor subtypes have been

observed in the postmortem brains of adult suicide victims; however, their

role in teenage suicide is unexplored. The authors examined whether 5-HT2A

receptor subtypes are altered in the postmortem brains of teenage suicide

victims. METHOD: Levels of 5-HT2A receptors were determined through

examination of [125I] LSD binding, protein expression (by use of Western

blotting with a specific 5-HT2A receptor antibody), and mRNA (by means of

quantitative reverse transcription polymerase chain reaction) in the

prefrontal cortex, hippocampus, and nucleus accumbens of 15 teenage suicide

victims and 15 normal matched teenage subjects. The cellular localization of

the 5-HT2A receptors was determined by means of gold immunolabeling.

RESULTS: The authors observed significantly higher [125I]LSD binding in the

prefrontal cortex and greater protein expression and mRNA levels in the

prefrontal cortex and hippocampus but not in the nucleus accumbens of

suicide victims, compared with normal subjects. Greater protein expression

was localized on pyramidal cells in cortical layer V but not in other

cortical layers or in the surrounding neuropil of the prefrontal cortex of

teenage suicide victims. CONCLUSIONS: The evidence indicates higher levels

of 5-HT2A receptor, protein, and mRNA expression in the prefrontal cortex

and hippocampus, which have been implicated in emotion, stress, and

cognition. There was no higher level in the nucleus accumbens, which has

been implicated in drug dependence and craving

--

Regards,

December 28, 2005