Guest guest Posted July 14, 2001 Report Share Posted July 14, 2001 Caren or others with no energy I still think the NADH is worth as shot, not everyone may benefit from it or feel the difference the first time you try it but I can guarantee it is making a big difference for me, I am able to go to work, work out, stay up late, etc and still have a clear head and energy, and I am attributing it to the NADH so I still think it is a good supplement. I am still so achy in the mornings but usually by afternoon I am ok, so I am going to the gym after work instead of first thing so that I don't feel so much pain. Mornings are hard. I am taking a magnesium supplement now, but after reading e's post I am wondering if it is a good idea, anyone have any info here on this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 14, 2001 Report Share Posted July 14, 2001 > I am taking a magnesium supplement now, but after reading e's > post I am wondering if it is a good idea, anyone have any info here > on this? According to my references, toxic symptoms are RARE as long as the kidneys are functioning normally. Where kidney function is impaired and magnesium is being supplemented, toxic symptoms from excess may develop, These would include slow heart rate, fatigue, low blood pressure, flushing, dry mouth, muscular weakness, thirst, nausea and vomiting. Otherwise, I have no qualms about taking supplemental magnesium. Nobody seems to question the need for calcium--we all need it. It is probablay the most important mineral you can get. However, magnesium and calcium are needed together. The recommended ratio of dietary calcium to magnesium is 2:1. So, if you take a calcium supplement, you also need to take magnesium by half as much. Patty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2001 Report Share Posted July 16, 2001 I found the ENADA NADH in a vitamin store here in Denver called Vitamin Cottage. They will also ship out of state orders if you don't have a Vitamin Cottage in your state (I think it is just in Colorado). However, it really is expensive. I can't remember if it is more expensive than immunesupport or not. But the 5mg tabs were $28.95 for 30. If anyone wants the toll free # for Vitamin Cottage, please let me know. As for the Mg supplement, there is no doubt that Mg is very important for our overall well being. However, if your serum levels are normal, then you should not be taking a supplement, as Mg has the great potential for toxicity. Too much Mg can cause weak or absent deep tendon reflexes, cardiac arrhythmias, hypotension, circulatory collapse, and respiratory paralysis. In addition, it interacts with several cardiac meds, tetracycline, and CNS depressants, including benzos, pain meds, muscle relaxers, and some antidepressants. So, I would suggest that before just taking a Mg supplement, have a serum Mg level drawn and see if your Mg level is normal or not. If it is normal, then you DO NOT need to take a supplement. e > Caren or others with no energy I still think the NADH is worth as > shot, not everyone may benefit from it or feel the difference the > first time you try it but I can guarantee it is making a big > difference for me, I am able to go to work, work out, stay up late, > etc and still have a clear head and energy, and I am attributing it > to the NADH so I still think it is a good supplement. I am still so > achy in the mornings but usually by afternoon I am ok, so I am going > to the gym after work instead of first thing so that I don't feel so > much pain. Mornings are hard. > > I am taking a magnesium supplement now, but after reading e's > post I am wondering if it is a good idea, anyone have any info here > on this? > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2001 Report Share Posted July 16, 2001 I also need to let you all know that too much calcium is not good, either. In fact, taking a calcium supplement can actually worsen osteoarthritis, and can leech minerals from bones, making them softer. There is a study going on at the University of Colorado Health Sciences Center and the results they are getting are indicating the above. Also, one of my friends is a pharmacist who monitors studies and she said that there are several studies being done in the states and Europe coming to the same conclusions. Again, the studies are finding that if you eat healthy and get the recommended serving of each food group, then you should not need a calcium supplement. However, if you don't get the recommended servings from all the food groups, then a calcium supplement is recommended. But you must not go overboard and assume that more is better. Many people assume that if one pill is good, 2 is better. Not true, and this is where people are doing more harm to their bones than they think. And in fact, my rheumatologist is now recommending that women not take calcium supplements, but is giving them well balanced diets to follow where there are foods with high calcium in them. While Mg toxicity is not common, it can become much more common if your serum Mg levels are normal. That is why it is imperative to have a serum Mg level checked to see if you truly are deficient or not. It would be rare to find a doc who will give the okay to take a Mg supplement if your Mg level is normal. The same with calcium. You can have serum Ca levels checked as well to see if your body is deficient or not absorbing the calcium you eat. Trust me, I am not trying to start a fight or be difficult, but these are the facts. And even though, in the case of Mg toxicity, it is rare, you can still be receiving too much and not know it. Some of the signs and symtoms of Mg toxicity are not known until it is too late. I have seen several cases working in the open heart ICU where pts come in through the ER and have vague complaints, and when their Mg level is checked, they have severe hypermagnesemia. Another example is a pt who is having some arrhythmias or just not feeling well. A visual inspection doesn't reveal anything out of the ordinary, but when Mg levels are checked, the pt has such severe hypermagnesemia that they could have died. And this happened to me in ton just a few wks ago. I had a pt who had her labs drawn at 5am, and everything was within normal limits, including Mg. 5 hrs later, she had non-specific complaints of weakness. When I redrew her labs, her Mg came back at 3.2, which is extremely high. And I had to give her an amp of calcium to reverse the hypermagnesemia. So, it is just smart to have your serum levels checked before taking these supplements, since both Ca and Mg can have deleterious effects on the heart, lungs, musculoskeletal system, and nervous system. e > > > I am taking a magnesium supplement now, but after reading e's > > post I am wondering if it is a good idea, anyone have any info here > > on this? > > According to my references, toxic symptoms are RARE as long as the kidneys > are functioning normally. Where kidney function is impaired and magnesium > is being supplemented, toxic symptoms from excess may develop, These would > include slow heart rate, fatigue, low blood pressure, flushing, dry mouth, > muscular weakness, thirst, nausea and vomiting. > > Otherwise, I have no qualms about taking supplemental magnesium. Nobody > seems to question the need for calcium--we all need it. It is probablay the > most important mineral you can get. However, magnesium and calcium are > needed together. The recommended ratio of dietary calcium to magnesium is > 2:1. So, if you take a calcium supplement, you also need to take magnesium > by half as much. > Patty > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2001 Report Share Posted July 16, 2001 As for the Mg supplement, there is no doubt that Mg is > very important for our overall well being. However, if > your serum levels are normal, then you should not be > taking a supplement.... I just wanted to point out that in the two articles that I posted about magnesium, both stated that serum levels of magnesium are poor indicators of intracellular magnesium, which is where the problem for those with MCS or CFS starts. As stated: " RBC and plasma levels proved to be poor indicators of magnesium status: 2.8% (1/35 positive) and 15% (5/33 positive) respectively. Intravenous magnesium challenge appeared to be a more accurate assessment of total body magnesium status (76% positive 39/51). " " It appeared that serum and red blood cell measurements of magnesium may not reflect a true state of magnesium depletion unless it is extremely low. Further, if serum levels fell within the " normal' range, a depleted state may still be a possibility. This was in agreement with the World Conference on Magnesium (1985) consensus that the best way to define deficiency was by magnesium challenge.31 " " Magnesium may be the most critical single supplement affecting patients with chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS), since known intracellular magnesium deficiencies exist in patients with this disorder, according to R. Cheney, M.D., PhD., and W. Lapp, M.D. " " ......This might happen, they added, with CFS patients who " crash, " even though they essentially have normal blood levels of magnesium. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 2001 Report Share Posted July 17, 2001 I can understand where Mg may be important in the case of CFS. But CFS is not FMS, which many of us suffer from as well, and many of us have been told FMS is what's causing our body aches and pains, not CFS. However, I am not going to debate the issue of Mg necessity in cases of CFS, as I am in total agreement that it can help. However, I do want to bring to your attention that the statement made by the World Conference on Mg is rather outdated, going back to 1985. There have been many changes in clinical advances and knowledge in the last 16 yrs, so I would question the validity of this statement at this point in time. The other point I want to make is that it is rare to see a Mg challenge done. In fact, I have never seen one done in 9 yrs of nursing. So, if this is truly the best way to determine if you are truly low in Mg, then the majority of docs don't do it. Perhaps it is out of date now, or it is too expensive and/or most insurance companies won't cover it. I am seeing my rheumy on Thurs and will see if he has any recent articles on Mg and its beneficence to CFS, FMS, MCS, and other similar conditions. In addition, I will ask him about the Mg challenge and see what he says about that. I just want to provide to the group the latest and most up to date data. I am in no way, shape or form trying to be argumentative. I want to educate the women and provide them with the data they need to make an informed decision about the supplements and life choices they make. e > As for the Mg supplement, there is no doubt that Mg is > > very important for our overall well being. However, if > > your serum levels are normal, then you should not be > > taking a supplement.... > > I just wanted to point out that in the two articles that I posted about > magnesium, both stated that serum levels of magnesium are poor indicators of > intracellular magnesium, which is where the problem for those with MCS or > CFS starts. As stated: > > " RBC and plasma levels proved to be poor indicators of magnesium status: > 2.8% (1/35 positive) and 15% (5/33 positive) respectively. Intravenous > magnesium challenge appeared to be a more accurate assessment of total body > magnesium status (76% positive 39/51). " > > " It appeared that serum and red blood cell measurements of magnesium may > not reflect a true state of magnesium depletion unless it is extremely low. > Further, if serum levels fell within the " normal' range, a depleted state > may still be a possibility. This was in agreement with the World Conference > on Magnesium (1985) consensus that the best way to define deficiency was by > magnesium challenge.31 " > > " Magnesium may be the most critical single supplement affecting patients > with chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS), since known intracellular magnesium > deficiencies exist in patients with this disorder, according to R. > Cheney, M.D., PhD., and W. Lapp, M.D. " > " ......This might happen, they added, with CFS patients who " crash, " even > though they essentially have normal blood levels of magnesium. " > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 2001 Report Share Posted July 17, 2001 Hi e, Thanks for your comments, they are always appreciated. I think the best way to educate and inform on this group would be to post references or articles that support your statements, from credible sources, when it relates to medical science. Of course, personal experiences as they relate to breast implants are the backbone of this support group, and are highly valued. Thanks again! Patty ----- Original Message ----- From: <eRene@...> < > Sent: Monday, July 16, 2001 6:09 PM Subject: Re: energy > I can understand where Mg may be important in the case > of CFS. But CFS is not FMS, which many of us suffer > from as well, and many of us have been told FMS is > what's causing our body aches and pains, not CFS. > However, I am not going to debate the issue of Mg > necessity in cases of CFS, as I am in total agreement > that it can help. > > However, I do want to bring to your attention that the > statement made by the World Conference on Mg is rather > outdated, going back to 1985. There have been many > changes in clinical advances and knowledge in the last > 16 yrs, so I would question the validity of this > statement at this point in time. > > The other point I want to make is that it is rare to see > a Mg challenge done. In fact, I have never seen one > done in 9 yrs of nursing. So, if this is truly the best > way to determine if you are truly low in Mg, then the > majority of docs don't do it. Perhaps it is out of date > now, or it is too expensive and/or most insurance > companies won't cover it. > > I am seeing my rheumy on Thurs and will see if he has > any recent articles on Mg and its beneficence to CFS, > FMS, MCS, and other similar conditions. In addition, I > will ask him about the Mg challenge and see what he says > about that. > > I just want to provide to the group the latest and most > up to date data. I am in no way, shape or form trying > to be argumentative. I want to educate the women and > provide them with the data they need to make an informed > decision about the supplements and life choices they > make. > > e > > > As for the Mg supplement, there is no doubt that Mg is > > > very important for our overall well being. However, if > > > your serum levels are normal, then you should not be > > > taking a supplement.... > > > > I just wanted to point out that in the two articles that I posted about > > magnesium, both stated that serum levels of magnesium are poor indicators of > > intracellular magnesium, which is where the problem for those with MCS or > > CFS starts. As stated: > > > > " RBC and plasma levels proved to be poor indicators of magnesium status: > > 2.8% (1/35 positive) and 15% (5/33 positive) respectively. Intravenous > > magnesium challenge appeared to be a more accurate assessment of total body > > magnesium status (76% positive 39/51). " > > > > " It appeared that serum and red blood cell measurements of magnesium may > > not reflect a true state of magnesium depletion unless it is extremely low. > > Further, if serum levels fell within the " normal' range, a depleted state > > may still be a possibility. This was in agreement with the World Conference > > on Magnesium (1985) consensus that the best way to define deficiency was by > > magnesium challenge.31 " > > > > " Magnesium may be the most critical single supplement affecting patients > > with chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS), since known intracellular magnesium > > deficiencies exist in patients with this disorder, according to R. > > Cheney, M.D., PhD., and W. Lapp, M.D. " > > " ......This might happen, they added, with CFS patients who " crash, " even > > though they essentially have normal blood levels of magnesium. " > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2001 Report Share Posted July 19, 2001 I will most definately quote from medical journals when available. However, because I am living in a hotel until my next travel assignment, I do not have access to the medical journals that I subscribe to. On the other hand, I want to say that what I post is based on knowledge of critical care, cardiac, neurological, and musculoskeletal nursing. It is based on the current practices of the physicians and medical communities that I have worked in. And it is fact based in the sense that not one physician has strayed from the documented practices of managing and treating electrolyte imbalances in the last decade. And while some of what I post may be based on personal experiences, the majority of it is based on actual experiences with patients, physicians, physician assistants, and other nurses. My statements in regards to Mg are based on fact as serum Mg is the only reliable way to determine Mg levels. Again, I want to reinforce that while doing a Mg challenge may be another accurate way to determine a Mg level, I have never seen it done, and have never heard of any physician ordering such a test. And again, your reference to the article stating a Mg challenge is the only way to determine a Mg level is extremely outdated and would have absolutely no validity in the present. Medical personnel very rarely accept research data that is more than 1-2 yrs old, unless it is a proven scientific fact, which must be proven to have gone through the scientific process. I believe that what I post on this site is valid, fact driven, and based on personal experience both as a patient and as a nurse. I encourage everyone on this site to read everything, do the research, and then make an informed decision. I have always encouraged informed decision making, and always encourage questions and challenges. I still think the best guidance I can offer to anyone is to bring the issues they are concerned with to a physician they can trust and confide in, get their opinion and advice, and then ask questions and do the research. In the interim, I will see what articles I can find about Mg, safety and efficacy with Mg supplements, toxicity, and the Mg challenge vs. serum Mg levels. e Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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