Re: milk thistle - the herb

October 8, 2003

elr: it would be much easier transporting seeds than a live plant, not to

mention the hassle at philippine customs when it arrives =/ .

=====

paul griego writes:

> there is a herb store here in my home town that

> sells

> milk thistle as the plant.

>

________________________________________________

¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«

¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

Live your life so you won't be ashamed to

leave your family parrot with the town gossip

________________________________________________

¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«

¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

October 8, 2003

The milk thistle seed is used to obtain the herbal material for

consumption. BEFORE anyone decides to use milk thistle PLEASE read

the warning LeighAnn has on her website:

www.geocities.com/1LeighAnn. There could be problems if you take

milk thistle and ANY drugs - over-the-counter or prescription. A

person should never start taking herbs without the advice from a

Herbalist or a Complementry/Alternative medicines specialist. Glenn

> elr: has anybody in the list ever seen a live milk thistle herb?

where does

> this herb usually grow? can they be grown at home? =)

>

> ________________________________________________

> ¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«

> ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

> Live your life so you won't be ashamed to

> leave your family parrot with the town gossip

> ________________________________________________

> ¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«

> ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

October 9, 2003

elr: thanks for the forewarning, glenn. i guess that if in the grand scheme

of things milk thistle promotes liver regeneration (as what leighann's

website states), there ought to be some sides thrown in as well =) .

conventional treatment of interferon/ribavirin does some damage to the liver

also. at least i don't take any of the medications stated in the

" contraindications list. " by the way, my milk thistle intake is on the

prescription of my homeopathic MD. this is together with alpha lipoic acid,

b complex, e, c, coQ10, and selenium. a doctor friend of his claims a

patient of his cleared out his HCV after a year on this cocktail. i have

also met several people online who say milk thistle lowered their viral

load. now if i can only get my hands on " germinate-able " seeds =) .

=====

hdhepper1 writes:

The milk thistle seed is used to obtain the herbal material for

consumption. BEFORE anyone decides to use milk thistle PLEASE read

the warning LeighAnn has on her website:

www.geocities.com/1LeighAnn. There could be problems if you take

milk thistle and ANY drugs - over-the-counter or prescription. A

person should never start taking herbs without the advice from a

Herbalist or a Complementry/Alternative medicines specialist. Glenn

________________________________________________

¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«

¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

Live your life so you won't be ashamed to

leave your family parrot with the town gossip

________________________________________________

¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«

¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

October 10, 2003

MY WEBSITE DOES NOT STATE THAT MILK THISTLE DOES ANYTHING OF THE

SORT!!!! I DO NOT PROMOTE HERBS AND NEVER HAVE OR WILL!!

LeighAnn

October 12, 2003

elr: hi, leighann. sorry if i upset you or anything. i didn't realize that

this short exchange on milk thistle would result in upsetting anybody. i

didn't know that you are against alternative routes to dealing with hepC.

whatever it is you believe in, i respect that.

as for your website's statements, please go back to

http://www.geocities.com/1LeighAnn/MTWarning.html and reread the first

paragraph, and i quote:

" The seeds of the milk thistle plant are commonly used by some individuals

in the hope of protecting the liver from damage caused by hepatitis viruses

as well as alcohol and other substances. Compounds found in milk thistle

-sylibin, sylimarin - act as antioxidants and also stimulate the repair of

the liver. But now it appears that these and possibly other compounds in

milk thistle can have other, potentially harmful effects. "

kindly look closely at the second sentence. although the third (and last)

sentence talk about its potentially harmful side effects, it does not

disprove the statement in the second sentence. if you picked this up from

another source, then it means that this source admits that milk thistle has

some beneficial effect on the liver.

again to all in the list: please do not take this to mean that ALL herbal

and other alternative treatments to hepC (or other medical conditions for

that matter) is automatically good. in the absence of government authority

to say which do good and which do not on herbal and alternative treatments,

we all still need to read up and research on these things. word of advise:

read documents from both promoters and detractors of any given herb or

alternative treatment.

=====

leighannv writes:

MY WEBSITE DOES NOT STATE THAT MILK THISTLE DOES ANYTHING OF THE

SORT!!!! I DO NOT PROMOTE HERBS AND NEVER HAVE OR WILL!!

LeighAnn

________________________________________________

¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«

¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

Live your life so you won't be ashamed to

leave your family parrot with the town gossip

________________________________________________

¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«

¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

October 12, 2003

Description and Constituents

Silybum marianum (milk thistle) has been used for centuries as an herbal

medicine for the treatment of liver disease. Its use for liver disorders

dates back to Pliny the Elder, a Roman naturalist, who described milk

thistle as being " excellent for carrying off bile. " 1 Milk thistle is an

annual or biennial plant indigenous to Europe and is also found in some

parts of the United States. It grows in rocky soils to a height of three to

ten feet with an erect stem that bears large, alternating, prickly-edged

leaves. The common name, milk thistle, is derived from the " milky white "

veins on the leaves, which, when broken open, yield a milky sap. Flowering

season is from June to August, and each stem bears a single, large, purple

flower ending in sharp spines. The fruit portion of the plant is glossy

brown or grey with spots.2-4 Silybum marianum contains silymarin, which is

composed of the flavanolignans silybin, silydianin, and silychristine, with

silybin being the most biologically active. Silymarin is found in highest

concentrations in the fruit portion of the plant but is also found in the

leaves and seeds. The seeds also contain betaine, trimethylglycine and

essential fatty acids, which may contribute to silymarin's hepatoprotective

and anti-inflammatory effects.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

----

Mechanisms of Action

Silymarin's hepatoprotective effects are accomplished via several mechanisms

including antioxidation,8 inhibition of lipid peroxidation,9 enhanced liver

detoxification via inhibition of Phase I detoxification and enhanced

glucuronidation,10,11 and protection of glutathione depletion.12 Studies

have also shown silymarin exhibits several anti-inflammatory effects,

including inhibition of leukotriene and prostaglandin synthesis, Kupffer

cell inhibition, mast cell stabilization, and inhibition of neutrophil

migration.13-17 In addition, silymarin has been shown to increase hepatocyte

protein synthesis, thereby promoting hepatic tissue regeneration.18 Animal

studies have also demonstrated silybin reduces the conversion of hepatic

stellate cells into myofibroblasts, slowing or even reversing fibrosis.19

Clinical studies conducted in Hungary also demonstrated silymarin to have

immunomodulatory effects on the diseased liver.20,21

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

----

Pharmacokinetics

Silymarin is not water soluble, making tea preparations ineffective;

therefore it is usually administered orally in encapsulated form. Because

absorption of silymarin from the gastrointestinal tract is only moderate

(23-47%), it is best administered as a standardized extract of 70-80 percent

silymarin. In animals and humans, peak plasma levels are reached in four to

six hours after an oral dose. Silymarin is excreted primarily via the bile

but some clearance is also achieved via the kidneys. The clearance half-life

of silymarin is six to eight hours.22,23

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

----

Clinical Indications

Amanita Mushroom Poisoning

The most impressive use of silymarin is in the treatment of Amanita

phalloides mushroom poisoning. The genus Amanita is widespread in Europe and

North America with several edible species being prized by mushroom

collectors. Unfortunately, many of the Amanita species are highly toxic, and

ingestion results in severe liver damage and death in approximately 30

percent of cases.24 In animal studies, silymarin given within 10 minutes

after amanita toxin ingestion completely counteracted the toxic effects, and

if given within 24 hours of toxin ingestion silymarin prevented death and

greatly reduced liver damage.25

Hepatitis

Studies have shown silymarin to be effective in the treatment of both acute

and chronic hepatitis. In acute viral hepatitis, administration of silymarin

shortened treatment time and lowered serum bilirubin, AST, and ALT. In

patients with chronic hepatitis, 420 mg silymarin per day for six months

also yielded improved serum liver enzymes.26

Alcoholic Liver Disease and Cirrhosis

Studies conducted in Austria and Hungary have demonstrated silymarin

administration resulted in a normalization of serum liver enzyme and total

bilirubin levels in patients with alcoholic liver disease, in addition to

improved liver tissue histology.27 In patients with cirrhosis, long-term (41

months) administration of silymarin at 420 mg per day resulted in a

significant increase in survival compared to the placebo group.28

Hypercholesterolemia

An animal study found silymarin given to rats with diet-induced

hypercholesterolemia demonstrated an anticholesterolemic effect similar to

probucol, with an increase in HDL cholesterol and a decrease in total and

biliary cholesterol.29

Psoriasis

The value of silymarin in the treatment of psoriasis may be due to its

ability to improve endotoxin removal by the liver, inhibit cAMP

phosphodiesterase, and inhibit leukotriene synthesis. Abnormally high levels

of cAMP and leukotrienes have been observed in patients with psoriasis and

normalization of these levels may improve the condition.13,30

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

----

Dosage/Toxicity

Silybum marianum is usually given as a standardized extract (70-80%

silymarin) in encapsulated form, 100-300 mg three times daily being the

typical adult dose. Both animal and human studies have shown silymarin to be

non-toxic. At high doses (>1500 mg per day) a laxative effect is possible

due to increased bile secretion and flow. Mild allergic reactions have also

been noted but were not serious.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

----

References

1. Pliny the Elder, Historia Naturalis 77 A.D.

2. Bisset N. Herbal Drugs and Pharmaceuticals. London: CRC Press;

1994:121-123.

3. Gruenwald J, Brendler T, Jaenicke C. PDR for Herbal Medicines. Montvale,

NJ: Medical Economics Company, Inc.; 1998:1138-1141.

4. Luper S. A review of plants used in the treatment of liver disease: part

1. Altern Med Rev 1998;4:410-421.

5. Wagner H. Antihepatotoxic flavonoids. In: Cody V, Middleton E, and

Harbourne JB eds. Plant Flavonoids in Biology and Medicine: Biochemical,

Pharmacological, and Structure-Activity Relationships. New York, NY: Alan R.

Liss, Inc.; 1986:545-558.

6. Adzet T. Polyphenolic compounds with biological and pharmacological

activity. Herbs Spices Medicinal Plants 1986;1:167-184.

7. Hikino H, Kiso Y, Wagner H, Feibig M. Antihepatotoxic actions of

flavonolignans from Silybum marianum fruits. Planta Medica 1984;50:248-250.

8. Wagner H. Plant constituents with antihepatotoxic activity. In: Beal JL,

Reinhard E eds. Natural Products as Medicinal Agents. Stuttgart:

Hippokrates-Verlag; 1981.

9. Bosisio E, Benelli C, Pirola O, et al. Effect of the flavanolignans of

Silybum marianum L. on lipid peroxidation in rat liver microsomes and

freshly isolated hepatocytes. Pharmacol Res 1992;25:147-154.

10. Baer-Dubowska W, Szaefer H, Drajka-Kuzniak V. Inhibition of murine

hepatic cytochrome P450 activities by natural and synthetic phenolic

compounds. Xenobiotica 1998;28:735-743.

11. Halim AB, el-Ahmady O, Hassab-Allah S, et al. Biochemical effect of

antioxidants on lipids and liver function in experimentally-induced liver

damage. Ann Clin Biochem 1997;34:656-663.

12. Campos R, Garido A, Guerra R, et al. Silybin dihemisuccinate protects

against glutathione depletion and lipid peroxidation induced by

acetaminophen on rat liver. Planta Med 1989;55:417-419.

13. Fiebrich F, Koch H. Silymarin, an inhibitor of lipoxygenase. Experentia

1979;35:150-152.

14. Dehmlow C, Erhard J, de Groot H. Inhibition of Kupffer cell functions as

an explanation for the hepatoprotective properties of silibinin. Hepatology

1996;23:749-754.

15. Fantozzi R, Brunelleschi S, Rubino A, et al. FMLP-activated neutrophils

evoke histamine release from mast cells. Agents Actions 1986;18:155-158.

16. Dehmlow C, Murawski N, de Groot H, et al. Scavenging of reactive oxygen

species and inhibition of arachidonic acid metabolism by silibinin in human

cells. Life Sci 1996;58:1591-1600.

17. De La Puerta R, ez E, Bravo L. Effect of silymarin on different

acute inflammation models and on leukocyte migration. J Pharm Pharmacol

1996;48:968-970.

18. Sonnenbichler J, Zetl I. Biochemical effects of the flavanolignane

silibinin on RNA, protein and DNA synthesis in rat livers. In: Cody V,

Middleton E, Harbourne JB, eds. Plant Flavonoids in Biology and Medicine:

Biochemical, Pharmacological, and Structure-Activity Relationships. New

York, NY; 1986:319-331.

19. Fuchs EC, Weyhenmeyer R, Weiner OH, et al. Effects of silibinin and of a

synthetic analogue on isolated rat hepatic stellate cells and

myofibroblasts. Arzneimittelforschung 1997;26:643-649.

20. Deak G, Muzes G, Lang I. Immunomodulator effect of silymarin therapy in

chronic alcoholic liver diseases. Orv Hetil 1990:131:1291-1292, 1295-1296.

[Article in Hungarian]

21. Lang I, Nekam K, -Cabello R. Hepatoprotective and immunological

effects of antioxidant drugs. Tokai J Exp Clin Med 1990;15:123-127.

22. Schandalik R, Gatti G, Perucca E, et al. Pharmacokinetics of silybin in

bile following administration of silipide and silymarin in cholecystectomy

patients. Arzneimittelforschung 1992;42:964-968.

23. Tyler V. Herbalgram 1994;30:24-30.

24. Vogel G, Tuchweber B, Trost W. Protection by silibinin against Amanita

phalloides intoxication in beagles. Toxicol Appl Pharmacol 1984;73:355-362.

25. Desplaces A, Choppin J, Vogel G, Trost W. The effects of silymarin on

experimental phalloidine poisoning. Arzneimittelforschung 1975;25:89-96.

26. Magliulo E, Gagliardi B, Fiori GP. Results of a double blind study on

the effect of silymarin in the treatment of acute viral hepatitis, carried

out at two medical centres. Med Klin 1978;73:1060-1065. [Article in German]

27. Feher I, Deak G, Muzes G. Liver protective action of silymarin therapy

in chronic alcoholic liver diseases. Orv Hetil 1989;130:2723-2727. [Article

in Hungarian]

28. Ferenci P, Dragosics B, Dittrich H, et al. Randomized controlled trial

of silymarin treatment in patients with cirrhosis of the liver. J Hepatol

1989;9:105-113.

29. Kreeman V, Skottova N, Walterova D, et al. Silymarin inhibits the

development of diet-induced hypercholesterolemia in rats. Planta Med

1998;64:138-142.

30. Kock HP, Bachner J, Loffler E. Silymarin: Potent inhibitor of cyclic AMP

phosphodiesterase. Meth Find Expel Clin Pharmacol 1985;7:409-413.

http://www.thorne.com/altmedrev/thistle4-4.html

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

----

<snip> from a post on alternative hepC lists

The difference between the two is that most all milk thistle is

extracted with acetone - which is hepato-toxic - whether it be from

China or Europe.

However, the milk thistle plus product is NOT extracted with acetone. It

is from my HCV alternative treatment guru, Hobb's company,

Rainbow Light.

Because the Milk Thistle Plus is not extracted with the efficient but

harsh acetone, the Silymarin extract is 10%, not 80%. However, there are

three things that come into play to increase the synergy of absorption:

1) More of the full-spectrum ingredients are present.

2) It contains a complex of herb and vegetables that increase the

absorption percent over singular milk thistle.

3) The dose of milk thistle one takes is more like 1500mg (3

tablets or more)

So, the main difference is the lack of acetone residue and full spectrum

synergistic absorption. I believe in it so much that I am negotiating

with them to get some for my LiverFriend capsule formula.

I have just posted a reference page for your information about the Milk

Thistle Plus. It is at:

http://www.liverfriend.com/Products/Milk_Thistle_Plus.htm.

Let me know if I can be of any additional service.

InHealth!

Jay W. Emmons

Jay@...

www.Liverfriend.com

<SNIP>

October 12, 2003

It also shows that milk thistle and other herbs can be harmful to

your liver. They can potentially kill you. While herbs may help with

symptoms, they do nothing to improve the condition of the liver or

the HepC. If you can find scientific proof of this, please show it to

me!

LeighAnn

October 12, 2003

elr: for those who are currently on peg-riba combo tx, given the data on how

milk thistle reacts with other medication, it is best to abstain from the

herb, IMHO. your doctor can probably more adequately fill you in =) . for

those who are NOT on the conventional tx, it is still best to CONSULT your

doctor before you embark on a milk thistle program.

=====

EagleWnSheFlies@... writes: