Guest guest Posted July 26, 2001 Report Share Posted July 26, 2001 Martha-- I did some research on B vits just more for the fun of it and for me to learn some things. But I wanted to share with you what I found. Recent studies show that Vit B2 (riboflavin) may increase the risk of stomach CA. Niacin is unnecessary in supplements in people with healthy diets. Vit B5 (pantothenic acid) is not necessary if there is a healthy diet. Although there is no toxicity shown in humans, it has caused liver damage in rats. Vit B12 deficiencies are rare. Low levels also cause increased homocysteine levels. High levels of folate (folic acid) are linked with CNS disorders, zinc deficiency, and seizures. High levels of Vit C (more than 1000mg/day) can cause multi-system problems. Doses more than 500mg/day can actually have pro-oxidant effects (as opposed to being a beneficial antioxidant in normal levels). In addition, it has not been shown to cure anything, including the common cold. It can also cause severe diarrhea and other digestive problems, and the formation of kidney stones. Vit D is very toxic. If more than what is recommended is taken it can cause kidney failure and death. Prolonged usage can cause calcification of soft tissue. Low Ca diets and stopping Vit D can reverse most toxic symptoms, except for kidney failure. Most people can get more than enough Vit D from being out in the sun. The above are all studies and facts I pulled from the American College of Advancement in Medicine and the American Association of Naturopathic Physicians. I am not against supplements, I just get the feeling from many women that more is better and that vitamins and supplements are a cure-all. While some supplements are good and are necessary if you are truly deficient, some supplements are not needed and people are possibly doing more harm than good. There are some women who post just about daily wanting to know if they should try this or that, and what dose, etc. This is what worries me, and this is where the placebo effect comes into play. I get the strong impression that some women are so desperate to feel better (rightfully so) that they want to try anything and everything. And these are the women who will say that they feel 100% better even if they don't need the supplement or even if it really isn't doing any good. They read the other posts and feel that if it works for someone else then it'll work for them. Not true. I also understand that many of us have been sickened by chemicals, and rx pills are chemicals. So, I can see why there are many women out there who don't want to put anymore chemicals into their body, and therefore turn to supplements and natural medicines. What we aren't seeing is that natural cures can be just as toxic and dangerous as rx cures, sometimes even worse. Homeopathic medicines still have to be processed and broken down by a major organ in our body and can be tough on that organ. And as much as I agree with alternative medicine, and wish that alternative medicine can cure our problems, it never will. The fact of the matter is is that we will always need Western meds because vitamins, supplements, and herbs cannot cure us of a bacterial infection, fix our cardiac problems, our respiratory problems, our broken bones, our failing eyesight, etc. So far, only Western meds can fix these. I sincerely hope that the day will come when we rarely use Western meds, and instead use herbs, supplements, and vitamins. But until then, we cannot assume that alternative medicine will " fix " us. If that was the case, then there would be no need for physicians, nurses, hospitals, surgeries, clinics, etc. I myself take some supplements, including a multivit (which does contain Mg), MSM, and malic acid. I am, however, on a supplement holiday, as it didn't seem that they were working anymore. But I plan to go back on them soon. I definately noticed an improvement in my pain with the MSM and I noticed more energy with the multivit. Unfortunately, I didn't notice any improvement with the malic acid. But I'm going to try it again. Anyway, I don't want people to think that I'm totally against vits and supplements because I'm not. I just think that there is the mindset that because these supplements don't need a rx, then they are safe and that more is better. I think that we need to go about choosing our vits and supplements in an intelligent, well researched way. Anyway, thanks for listening. I will get off my soapbox now. e Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2001 Report Share Posted July 28, 2001 e, I will reply to your statements below, with my own. It is very, very misleading to take statements out of context like this and make generalizations that bear no resemblance to the truth. ----- Original Message ----- From: eRene@... > > Recent studies show that Vit B2 (riboflavin) may > increase the risk of stomach CA. You did not list your source, so I cannot read the information found in the " recent studies. " As we all know, it is important to know who funded the study, and what the context of this study was. Without knowing that, I would like to make these points: Since riboflavin is a vitamin found in foods, to suggest that it causes cancer itself is misleading. Many foods contain compounds that fight cancer, not cause it. We all can recognize that broccoli, turnip greens, asparagus and spinach, which are good green vegetable sources of riboflavin, have been promoted as having anti-cancer benefits. Having said that, looking at other food sources of riboflavin, we find that eggs, meat, fish, poultry, liver and dairy products are recommended. These foods today, unless free-range or organically fed, are laden with antibiotics, hormones, pesticides, heavy metals and other dangerous man-made chemicals. Could it be that thse compounds can contribute to stomach cancer instead? When supplemented, riboflavin is usually taken with a combination B-Complex supplement, not singlely. Many nutritionists and orthomolecular physicians give Vit B intravenously, (the full spectrum of B vitamins usually) where required for their patients. I have seen no indication that this it dangerous. B vitamins are water soluble. These are the least likely to have toxic reactions, since you just eliminate the excess in your urine. That is why you have really yellow urine when you take B vitamins! Especially riboflavin will do this. Finally, you have to question the source of the riboflavin in the study, the amounts given, and what kind of diet the subjects were on. Not all riboflavin is created equally. It is very important to use a quality vitamin from natural sources. Many cheap commercial vitamin supplements are created in a lab. Here is a run-down from Dr. Saul Pressman: - Vitamin A : Synthesized from acetone; extracted with hexane - Beta carotene : Synthesized from Vitamin A or from retinol - Vitamin B1 (thiamine) : Synthesized from thiamine dihydrochloride and mononitrate - Vitamin B2 (riboflavin) : Synthesized from azo dye and barbituric acid - Vitamin B3 (niacin) : Synthesized from acrolein, acetaldehyde, formaldehyde, ammonia, vanadium, and titanium - Vitamin B5 (pantothenic acid) : Synthesized from formaldehyde, isobutyraldehyde, cyanide and ammonia - Vitamin B6 (pyridoxine) : Synthesized from oxazoles with butenediol - Vitamin B8 (biotin) : Synthesized from fumaric acid, phosgene, bromine and hydrobromic acid - Vitamin B9 (folic acid) : Synthesized from pyrimidine, trichloracetone, dichloracrolein and aminobenzoyl glutamic acid - Vitamin B12 (cobalamin) : Fermentation of pseudomonas or proprionibacterium followed by extraction with cyanide - Vitamin C (ascorbic acid) : Glucose is converted into sorbitol and altered with perchloric acid and acetone - Vitamin D : Cholesterol is converted to its acetate, brominated, catalyzed, saponified and then photochemically converted into pre-Vitamin D. Thermal treatment then rearranges it into Vitamin D3. Vitamin D2 is made in a similar way, but starting from ergosterol and extracted with hexane. - Vitamin E (alpha-tocopherol) : Natural tocopherals are extracted from vegetable oils with hexane and then methylated. Synthetic forms are produced from trimethyl hydroquinones and isophytol. - Vitamin K : extracted with hexane There is no question that food sources are preferable. However, for those who do not eat enough good quality foods, or absorb nutrients properly, supplements may be entirely necessary! That would be a good number of American people, given the standard American diet of processed, nutrient-poor junk foods. > Niacin is unnecessary in supplements in people with > healthy diets. Key phrase: healthy diets. Most people do not eat what can be considered a healthy diet. I used to think that I did. Until I got educated about what a really healthy diet is. Only then did I see how rotten my standard American diet was. > > Vit B5 (pantothenic acid) is not necessary if there is a > healthy diet. Although there is no toxicity shown in > humans, it has caused liver damage in rats. Key phrase again: healthy diets. Those with adrenal insufficiency (which may be a good number of us) need to supplement this. As for toxicity, it is not only listed as non-toxic in my vitamin reference book. It says " VERY NON-TOXIC " . Some ortomolecular physicians describe using doses of up to 10,000 mg without adverse effect. > > Vit B12 deficiencies are rare. Low levels also cause > increased homocysteine levels. B12 deficiencies are not rare in vegetarians or vegans. It is a definite concern, as B12 occurs naturally only in foods from animal sources. Those who are on vegetarian diets, (and the numbers are growing steadily) must supplement this vitamin. Those who cannot absorb this vitamin must supplement or have injections. Vitamin B12 is needed by every living cell in the body, and a deficiency can ultimately lead to nerve and spinal cord damage. It is stored in the liver, and is safe and non-toxic. The last statement you made just shows that you do not want to ever be deficient in this vitamin. > > High levels of folate (folic acid) are linked with CNS > disorders, zinc deficiency, and seizures. The need for folic acid is measured in micrograms. The chance of getting too high levels is very, very small, and indeed, those women who are planning on getting pregnant should take this vitamin to avoid spinal cord defects in their children. > > High levels of Vit C (more than 1000mg/day) can cause > multi-system problems. Doses more than 500mg/day can > actually have pro-oxidant effects (as opposed to being a > beneficial antioxidant in normal levels). In addition, > it has not been shown to cure anything, including the > common cold. It can also cause severe diarrhea and > other digestive problems, and the formation of kidney > stones. Think about this one. Fruits and vegetables are loaded with Vitamin C. Do people who eat a basically fruit and vegetable diet have multi-system problems? Are they sick? They are usually the healthiest people on earth! This controversial subject rgarding Vit C was covered in depth recently, and you can find many, many rebuttals to these statements on the internet. The Linus ing Institute is primary researcher into Vitamin C issues (Linus ing was a nobel prize winning chemist) and has this to say: " Let us remember that this study is a test tube experiment. The study does not describe biochemistry or biology, and its relevance to reactions occurring in cells and tissues of the human body is unknown. Many reactions of vitamin C occur in vitro (in the test tube) that will not and cannot occur in vivo (in the living organism). Why? Because the physiological environment of the cell and the body contains thousands of substances that also react with vitamin C and rancid fats thus derailing the chemistry observed in a test tube system. Rancid fats don't just wait around in vivo to bump into a vitamin C molecule, but instead are very rapidly reduced to harmless " alcohols " by a number of enzymes. Thus, the reaction rate of rancid fats with these enzymes compared to the reaction rate of the rancid fats with vitamin C is of crucial importance and this was not measured in the Science study. From what we know from the study, incubations were done for two hours, an eternity in biochemical terms. Enzymatic reactions as those indicated above to reduce rancid fats to harmless alcohols that do not react with vitamin C usually take a fraction of a second, not two hours! It is interesting to note that vitamin C effectively inhibits the formation of rancid fats in the first place. Thus, when your blood is exposed to oxidizing conditions, vitamin C forms the first line of antioxidant defense, and no lipid rancid fats are formed. Rancid fats begin to form only after vitamin C has been exhausted. Thus, in these experiments rancid fats and vitamin C did not exist simultaneously in blood, and thus never had the opportunity to react with each other. What's more, the Science study used a concentration of rancid fats which in biochemical terms was " a ton. " Studies have shown that, in blood, rancid fats exist in concentrations which are 10,000-fold lower than what was used in the Science experiment. Again, this casts serious doubt on the relevance of these results for living organisms. To conclude from this study that vitamin C causes cancer would be as preposterous as to say that we have found a cure for cancer based on a simple test tube experiment. In fact, many animal studies and cell culture experiments have demonstrated anticancer effects of vitamin C, and the vitamin has been used therapeutically in human cancer patients with some apparent benefit. " > Vit D is very toxic. If more than what is recommended > is taken it can cause kidney failure and death. > Prolonged usage can cause calcification of soft tissue. > Low Ca diets and stopping Vit D can reverse most toxic > symptoms, except for kidney failure. Most people can > get more than enough Vit D from being out in the sun. Most people do get enough Vit D from the sun, and from the Vit D fortified dairy products they use. Most people do not supplement Vit D, unless they do not get enough sunlight, (such as in the state of Washington!), or are treating a specific illness. > > The above are all studies and facts I pulled from the > American College of Advancement in Medicine and the > American Association of Naturopathic Physicians. > > I am not against supplements, I just get the feeling > from many women that more is better and that vitamins > and supplements are a cure-all. While some supplements > are good and are necessary if you are truly deficient, > some supplements are not needed and people are possibly > doing more harm than good. While that is a possibility, I would like to point out that for most of us who have been harmed by implants, the chances of us being deficient due to malabsorption are greater than for others. It is important to get good quality vitamins, and not the cheap stuff found at drugstores. There are some women who > post just about daily wanting to know if they should try > this or that, and what dose, etc. This is what worries > me, and this is where the placebo effect comes into > play. It is not up to us to judge what may be a placebo affect or not. And even if it is, it that so bad, if it helps someone feel better?????? I get the strong impression that some women are > so desperate to feel better (rightfully so) that they > want to try anything and everything. And these are the > women who will say that they feel 100% better even if > they don't need the supplement or even if it really > isn't doing any good. They read the other posts and > feel that if it works for someone else then it'll work > for them. Not true. Ditto above. These statements have already been made in former posts, by the way. I have stated many times that what may work for one may not work for the other. But I would much prefer to give something a try and see if it works than sit around wondering how I can feel better. > > I also understand that many of us have been sickened by > chemicals, and rx pills are chemicals. So, I can see > why there are many women out there who don't want to put > anymore chemicals into their body, and therefore turn to > supplements and natural medicines. What we aren't > seeing is that natural cures can be just as toxic and > dangerous as rx cures, sometimes even worse. This is not true in the least!!! Natural cures have a clean history. Rx cures have killed thousands. > Homeopathic medicines still have to be processed and > broken down by a major organ in our body and can be > tough on that organ. Not true. Where are you getting this information? And as much as I agree with > alternative medicine, and wish that alternative medicine > can cure our problems, it never will. Also not true. This is your opinion, not fact. The fact of the > matter is is that we will always need Western meds > because vitamins, supplements, and herbs cannot cure us > of a bacterial infection, fix our cardiac problems, our > respiratory problems, our broken bones, our failing > eyesight, etc. So far, only Western meds can fix > these. I sincerely hope that the day will come when we > rarely use Western meds, and instead use herbs, > supplements, and vitamins. But until then, we cannot > assume that alternative medicine will " fix " us. If that > was the case, then there would be no need for > physicians, nurses, hospitals, surgeries, clinics, etc. I agree that allopathic medicine is needed to fix broken bones, gunshot wounds, heart attacks, infections, fix eyesight, and other acute health conditions. But that is where I draw the line. Natural medicine can do much, because it is based on the premise that the body has a healing capability if supported in its efforts. Long term results are the goal, not quick fixes. Natural medicine treats the underlying problem, not the symptoms of the problem. Allopathic medicine is short sighted in this respect. What is clearly evident is that those who practice traditional Western medicine lack the understanding that natural medicine therapies have existed for many thousands of years and are a legitimate form of medicine. They are body-friendly therapies. They heal. They support body functions. They work in conjunction with the body as it throws off wastes and does its house cleaning and cellular rebuilding. They can stand alone, without the need of Western medicine ideas, in areas of degenerative disease. Western medicine ideas have usurped all that has gone before it, in an arrogant, expensive, and politically motivated push and shove match to reign over America. The successes of pharmaceutical drugs has colored every aspect of what good medicine is. Man has become God in his own sight when it comes to the human body, thinking we can push pills, pull, twist, cut, sew, implant, inject, rearrange, or otherwise manipulate the body however we want, and that what we have done is " good for all. " What has ensued is a corrupt system which holds incredible power over human lives. Associations have taken on life of their own to become the purveyors of " the truth " , when in fact, they often dispense falsehoods. Need I mention the " lifetime " that plastic surgeons claimed for our implants? It was nothing more than an idea that proved false in the end. How many other times has this happened? Too many to count! And now we have an epidemic of mutant bacteria strains on our hands from the overuse of antibiotics. What will we do now? I really don't think man can outdo God, though he still thinks he can. And yet, here sits natural medicine on the sidelines, making no wild claims, no hoopla, just the idea that the many hundreds of thousands of people have used it through the centuries, from Hippocrates, the Father of Medicine, to Indians, to Chinese, to Greek, to whoever, a collection of wisdom through the ages to help fight disease naturally. I am thankful for the scientific advances we have made, but I wish we could have done it differently, and held on to the integrity that medicine needs to have. I don't trust Western medicine at all now. > > I myself take some supplements, including a multivit > (which does contain Mg), MSM, and malic acid. I am, > however, on a supplement holiday, as it didn't seem that > they were working anymore. But I plan to go back on > them soon. I definately noticed an improvement in my > pain with the MSM and I noticed more energy with the > multivit. Unfortunately, I didn't notice any > improvement with the malic acid. But I'm going to try > it again. Glad to hear it. > > Anyway, I don't want people to think that I'm totally > against vits and supplements because I'm not. I just > think that there is the mindset that because these > supplements don't need a rx, then they are safe and that > more is better. I think that we need to go about > choosing our vits and supplements in an intelligent, > well researched way. That is the key--with intelligence. Get rid of your biases first. Patty > > Anyway, thanks for listening. I will get off my soapbox > now. > > e > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2001 Report Share Posted July 28, 2001 > That is the key--with intelligence. Get rid of your biases first. > Patty By the way, I didn't mean to sound like I was pointing a finger at you, e...I meant anyone who wants to research or study health issues should get rid of their biases first. Too many in that field already are biased against alternative medicine. But I am not stupid--there are many biased the other way, too, against allopathic medicine. Patty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 2001 Report Share Posted July 29, 2001 Patty, First of all, how dare you insult my intelligence and accuse me of being biased!! You speak like you are some medical guru. Well, I got news for you, babe--you're not. Not even close. You may choose to hide behind your computer and lecture all you want about homeopathic medicines, but when push comes to shove, I don't think you could backup much of what you preach. I want to stress that I am not biased about vits and supplements in any way, shape, or form. I think that for certain people, they can do wonderful things and have outstanding results. However, when I read the posts daily and see certain women who are constantly asking " can I take this " , or " how much of this should I take, " or " has anyone heard of this, " or, " has anyone tried this, " I begin to wonder if some women are just not reaching for something, anything, to try. And granted, some of these supplements may work, but again, I will state that choosing which supplements are right for you is something that needs to be researched and an informed decision made based on the literature that is out there. I get the strong impression from posts that even though there are those of us who state that all supplements are not for everyone, there are still those out there who will try anything. Your statement about placebo effect-- " so what if it causes a placebo effect if it helps someone feel better? " This statement by yourself just proves how medically uneducated you are. Placebo effects can be dangerous in that someone who takes a supplement who doesn't need it, but who may feel better, even though there's no medical changes, is possibly hurting themselves. If you don't need something, but take it, that supplement could be doing internal damage, destroying organs, causing bleeding, or other maladies. So, that is specifically why in clinical research studies, the studies are mostly double blind and there are 2 control groups. The one group that is the placebo is simply a harmless sugar pill. The amt of sugar in these pills are so minute that you can barely register it. They are very similar to the pills at the end of a packet of BCP's. However, researchers have found that the placebo effect is very powerful. That is okay when all you have is sugar pill, but when you are dealing with electrolytes and vitamins, that placebo effect can be lethal. I think that you take much of what I say out of context. You are so pro natural rememdies (and that is fine), but I don't think that you have taken the time to take a step back and try to be unbiased yourself!! Just look at your post to me. The anger in your words is so apparent. You definately should not be calling me biased, when your whole post reeks of bias!!! Getting back to the post, yes, most of these vitamins are not needed with a healthy diet. But a healthy diet is eating the RDA of all the food groups. Most people don't get the RDA, but come close. If you are eating junk food, then yes, more than likely someone will be deficient in something. Again, just because you don't have the healthiest diet doesn't mean that you are deficient. I try to eat healthy, but that doesn't always happen. And I have NEVER been deficient in anything. And actually, my last lab results showed that my Fe (iron) level was way too high. It was 302!! And all I'm taking is a multivit with Fe in it--only 36mg/day. So that just goes to show you how quickly a mineral/vitamin can build up in your body and cause problems. The normal Fe supplent that is given in hospitals for people needing it is 325mg 3x/day. My doc told me to cut out the supplement with Fe in it for now, then when my iron levels return to normal, I can resume it. Not everyone excretes pills, vitamins, minerals, and supplements from their body like you. Maybe you have great working kidneys, and your liver is functioning okay. And as far as I know, my kidneys and liver are functioning fine, yet I still was not able to eliminate the small amt of Fe I am taking. Now, to individual comments. First of all, my statements are not opinion and were all taken out of Minerals: Drug Facts & Comparison. 2000: pages 27-57. Also included in my references are studies done by the following physicians: Harvery Simon, MD; Mass Inst. of Tech; Mass General Hospital; E. Godine, MD; Harvard Med School; Mass General Hospital; and an excerpt from " Vitamins & Other Nutrients " , June 1999. The statement about Vit B5 is taken from all the above sources. Vit B5 has been known to be extremely hepatotoxic to rats. It has not been shown to be toxic in humans, but because of the hepatotoxicity found in rats, researchers and physicians are beginning to inform their patients of this. Again, I think you took this out of context. Nowhere in that statement did I say it was toxic to humans, and yet you were quick to insinuate that I did. Next issue. The statement you made about mcg (micrograms) and that folic acid is measured this way means absolutely nothing. Just because something is measured in mcg vs. mg doesn't mean that it is a smaller amt or less potent than something given in mg. Fentanyl citrate (Sublimaze) is a narcotic that is 10x more potent than morphine, yet it is measured in mcg. In the recovery room, it is common to give 200-300mcg of Fentanyl for pain. That is an extremely high dose and something that regular nursing floors aren't allowed to do because of the amt and the extreme potency. Only critical care areas (recovery room, ER, ICU, cath lab, and OR) are allowed to give this drug. So your statement about folic acid being measured in mcg is totally irrelevant. Vit C has been debated for yrs now as to it's beneficence or danger to the human body. It is one of the most studied vitamins, and the jury is still out as to whether Vit C can help prevent colds/flu, and helps you feel better. However, last yr, a group of physicians in the Denver area published a study which was then aired on primetime TV that too much Vit C has been shown to be toxic and that it does NOT prevent colds from occurring. However, they did state that if an individual doesn't take a C supplement and does come down with a cold, then it is beneficial to take a MAX of 500mg/day. In addition, for about 2-3 yrs, I have heard several physicians indicate that Vit C is not the cure- all that people think it is, and this has been aired on TV as well. And mutlitple times I have heard that doses in excess of 1000mg/day are not good, and can actually do the opposite of what it is intended to do. When you discuss that fruits and veggies are loaded with Vit C, of course you are correct. What you are not considering is that Vit C supplements are manufactured in a lab with other materials. Fruits and veggies are a natural source which is easier for the body to absorb and excrete. You cannot tell me that there is any single product out there which does not have fillers or some ingredient to keep it fresh. Therefore, your body is not getting pure Vit C. As for your comment about where I am getting my information about homeopathic medicines needing to be broken down by a major organ in the body--I stated above my references, and this also comes from yrs of nursing school, yrs of practicing nursing, and several yrs doing medical research at the University of Colorado. I am insulted that you question my knowledge. If anyone should be questioning anyone, I should be questioning you. The info you provide women on the support group is excellent, but I think it is high time that you take a step back and consider how biased you are being in pushing homeopathic medicine. Just where do you think that these supplements go? Do you think that you just take them and then they just miraculously are absorbed into your body??? Everything and anything that is put into your body must be broken down into smaller units/compounds so that the body can effectively utilize it. This is either done by the compound being broken down by the liver, via the kidneys for excretion, via the intestine for excretion in the stool, or broken down by a chemical process whereby it is absorbed into the blood stream and then excreted. How do you think that we absorb these supplements? The supplement, whether in pill, tablet, liquid, or powder form must still be broken down into something the body can use, and this is done only by the liver, kidneys, or intestine. Again, this shows your lack of knowledge of physiological processes, and one that should be shared with the group if you are going to tell people about supplements. You certainly wouldn't want to encourage someone to take a vit/supplement that is excreted via the kidneys if they don't have adequate renal function. Even someone who has a UTI can not handle certain meds and chemicals placed into their body because their kidneys are not working at full capacity. To give you fair credit, I admit that I agree wholeheartedly about Western medicine having gone too far in its quest for a cure for everything. Being a RN, I see daily what we have done to medicine. I think some things should be left well enough alone; yet there is always someone out there who wants to come up with a cure for this, or a quick fix for that. And yes, Western medicine does just cover up the problem, whereas homeopathic medicine seeks to find the source of the problem and treat what is causing the problem. I never used to believe in alternative medicine until I started getting acupuncture done weekly. My acupuncturist would look at my tongue, and feel my pulses for a long time, and based on this information that she obtained, would then determine what organ was affected and the area she needed to concentrate on. I was amazed at the results. That made me a believer. However, when it comes to vitamins and supplements, I tend to be slightly more cautious, as should everyone. Again, I have had many doctors tell me that if I'm not deficient in something, I don't need to supplement it. And I have heard doctors tell their patients the same thing. So, Patty, it is not just me that feels this way. It is a standard in the medical community to not give someone something if they don't need it. Why take something you don't have to take? Why run the risk of developing toxicity when you don't have to? The other issue I want to bring up is that the FDA does not oversee any of the vitamins/supplements for purity. And while individual companies guarantee purity, I don't buy it. And because the FDA does not oversee this industry, there is always the potential for toxicity whether it be from taking too much or from chemical impurities. And there are only RDA's for us to use. These are guidelines, and some of us could need more of something, while others of us could need less. So in my eyes, from a medical point of view, there is a safety issue here. I am terribly disappointed in the way you have handled this whole " debate. " You try to come across as unbiased, but you come across as extremely biased. You state that you won't take Western meds, or that you draw the line at taking rx meds for anything other than conditions which absolutely require Western intervention. Do you not think this is an opinion or a bias against Western medicine? If not, then think again. Everything you state is pretty much an opinion. You make it quite clear that rx meds are bad and vits and supplements are good. Shoot me if I'm wrong, but that sounds like an opinion to me. You have insulted me more than once, and I have ignored it. But when someone continuously insults me, especially my intelligence, I do not take lightly to that. You are not a nurse, a doctor, or even in the medical field. So you cannot pretend to have the knowledge that I have when it comes to medicine. Yes, you can read books and speak to medical professionals, but that doesn't make you knowledgeable about medicine. You have not gone through the 4 yrs of nursing school that I have; you have not attended the many continuing education classes that I have; you have not attended the advanced practice nursing classes that I have; you have not taught medical classes to both nurses and physicians. But most importantly, you have not had the clinical experience with patients that I have had. You have not worked side by side with physicians and stood at a dying patients bedside, desperately trying to do something to save that persons life. You have not seen countless patients come into the hospital with potassium levels so high that they are having cardiac arrhythmias or are infarcting; you haven't cared for a patient whose Mg level is too high, and you have to quickly administer calcium to bring it down before something adverse happens. And no amount of reading textbooks can parallel the experience of patient interaction and being able to apply the knowledge you have learned to actual clinical situations. I am not going to apologize for my stance on this issue. Neither you nor I are right. We both have valid arguments and points to make. But to actually insult me and tell me that I'm biased is a low blow when you are demonstrating the exact same behavior. I suggest that you take a step back and look at your behavior before accusing me of anything. e > e, > I will reply to your statements below, with my own. It is very, very > misleading to take statements out of context like this and make > generalizations that bear no resemblance to the truth. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: eRene@... > > > > Recent studies show that Vit B2 (riboflavin) may > > increase the risk of stomach CA. > > You did not list your source, so I cannot read the information found in the > " recent studies. " As we all know, it is important to know who funded the > study, and what the context of this study was. Without knowing that, I > would like to make these points: > > Since riboflavin is a vitamin found in foods, to suggest that it causes > cancer itself is misleading. Many foods contain compounds that fight > cancer, not cause it. We all can recognize that broccoli, turnip greens, > asparagus and spinach, which are good green vegetable sources of riboflavin, > have been promoted as having anti-cancer benefits. Having said that, > looking at other food sources of riboflavin, we find that eggs, meat, fish, > poultry, liver and dairy products are recommended. These foods today, > unless free-range or organically fed, are laden with antibiotics, hormones, > pesticides, heavy metals and other dangerous man-made chemicals. Could it > be that thse compounds can contribute to stomach cancer instead? > > When supplemented, riboflavin is usually taken with a combination B-Complex > supplement, not singlely. Many nutritionists and orthomolecular physicians > give Vit B intravenously, (the full spectrum of B vitamins usually) where > required for their patients. I have seen no indication that this it > dangerous. B vitamins are water soluble. These are the least likely to have > toxic reactions, since you just eliminate the excess in your urine. That is > why you have really yellow urine when you take B vitamins! Especially > riboflavin will do this. > > Finally, you have to question the source of the riboflavin in the study, the > amounts given, and what kind of diet the subjects were on. Not all > riboflavin is created equally. > It is very important to use a quality vitamin from natural sources. Many > cheap commercial vitamin supplements are created in a lab. Here is a > run-down from Dr. Saul Pressman: > - Vitamin A : Synthesized from acetone; extracted with hexane > - Beta carotene : Synthesized from Vitamin A or from retinol > - Vitamin B1 (thiamine) : Synthesized from thiamine dihydrochloride and > mononitrate > - Vitamin B2 (riboflavin) : Synthesized from azo dye and barbituric acid > - Vitamin B3 (niacin) : Synthesized from acrolein, acetaldehyde, > formaldehyde, ammonia, vanadium, and titanium > - Vitamin B5 (pantothenic acid) : Synthesized from formaldehyde, > isobutyraldehyde, cyanide and ammonia > - Vitamin B6 (pyridoxine) : Synthesized from oxazoles with butenediol > - Vitamin B8 (biotin) : Synthesized from fumaric acid, phosgene, bromine and > hydrobromic acid > - Vitamin B9 (folic acid) : Synthesized from pyrimidine, trichloracetone, > dichloracrolein and aminobenzoyl glutamic acid > - Vitamin B12 (cobalamin) : Fermentation of pseudomonas or > proprionibacterium followed by extraction with cyanide > - Vitamin C (ascorbic acid) : Glucose is converted into sorbitol and altered > with perchloric acid and acetone > - Vitamin D : Cholesterol is converted to its acetate, brominated, > catalyzed, saponified and then photochemically converted into pre-Vitamin D. > Thermal treatment then rearranges it into Vitamin D3. Vitamin D2 is made in > a similar way, but starting from ergosterol and extracted with hexane. > - Vitamin E (alpha-tocopherol) : Natural tocopherals are extracted from > vegetable oils with hexane and then methylated. Synthetic forms are produced > from trimethyl hydroquinones and isophytol. > - Vitamin K : extracted with hexane > > There is no question that food sources are preferable. However, for those > who do not eat enough good quality foods, or absorb nutrients properly, > supplements may be entirely necessary! That would be a good number of > American people, given the standard American diet of processed, > nutrient-poor junk foods. > > > Niacin is unnecessary in supplements in people with > > healthy diets. > > Key phrase: healthy diets. Most people do not eat what can be considered a > healthy diet. I used to think that I did. Until I got educated about what a > really healthy diet is. Only then did I see how rotten my standard American > diet was. > > > > Vit B5 (pantothenic acid) is not necessary if there is a > > healthy diet. Although there is no toxicity shown in > > humans, it has caused liver damage in rats. > > Key phrase again: healthy diets. Those with adrenal insufficiency (which > may be a good number of us) need to supplement this. As for toxicity, it is > not only listed as non-toxic in my vitamin reference book. It says " VERY > NON-TOXIC " . Some ortomolecular physicians describe using doses of up to > 10,000 mg without adverse effect. > > > > Vit B12 deficiencies are rare. Low levels also cause > > increased homocysteine levels. > > B12 deficiencies are not rare in vegetarians or vegans. It is a definite > concern, as B12 occurs naturally only in foods from animal sources. Those > who are on vegetarian diets, (and the numbers are growing steadily) must > supplement this vitamin. Those who cannot absorb this vitamin must > supplement or have injections. Vitamin B12 is needed by every living cell > in the body, and a deficiency can ultimately lead to nerve and spinal cord > damage. It is stored in the liver, and is safe and non-toxic. The last > statement you made just shows that you do not want to ever be deficient in > this vitamin. > > > > High levels of folate (folic acid) are linked with CNS > > disorders, zinc deficiency, and seizures. > > The need for folic acid is measured in micrograms. The chance of getting > too high levels is very, very small, and indeed, those women who are > planning on getting pregnant should take this vitamin to avoid spinal cord > defects in their children. > > > > High levels of Vit C (more than 1000mg/day) can cause > > multi-system problems. Doses more than 500mg/day can > > actually have pro-oxidant effects (as opposed to being a > > beneficial antioxidant in normal levels). In addition, > > it has not been shown to cure anything, including the > > common cold. It can also cause severe diarrhea and > > other digestive problems, and the formation of kidney > > stones. > > Think about this one. Fruits and vegetables are loaded with Vitamin C. Do > people who eat a basically fruit and vegetable diet have multi-system > problems? Are they sick? They are usually the healthiest people on earth! > > This controversial subject rgarding Vit C was covered in depth recently, and > you can find many, many rebuttals to these statements on the internet. The > Linus ing Institute is primary researcher into Vitamin C issues (Linus > ing was a nobel prize winning chemist) and has this to say: > > " Let us remember that this study is a test tube experiment. The study does > not describe biochemistry or biology, and its relevance to reactions > occurring in cells and tissues of the human body is unknown. Many reactions > of vitamin C occur in vitro (in the test tube) that will not and cannot > occur in vivo (in the living organism). > Why? > Because the physiological environment of the cell and the body contains > thousands of substances that also react with vitamin C and rancid fats thus > derailing the chemistry observed in a test tube system. > Rancid fats don't just wait around in vivo to bump into a vitamin C > molecule, but instead are very rapidly reduced to harmless " alcohols " by a > number of enzymes. > Thus, the reaction rate of rancid fats with these enzymes compared to the > reaction rate of the rancid fats with vitamin C is of crucial importance and > this was not measured in the Science study. > From what we know from the study, incubations were done for two hours, an > eternity in biochemical terms. Enzymatic reactions as those indicated above > to reduce rancid fats to harmless alcohols that do not react with vitamin C > usually take a fraction of a second, not two hours! > It is interesting to note that vitamin C effectively inhibits the formation > of rancid fats in the first place. Thus, when your blood is exposed to > oxidizing conditions, vitamin C forms the first line of antioxidant defense, > and no lipid rancid fats are formed. > Rancid fats begin to form only after vitamin C has been exhausted. Thus, in > these experiments rancid fats and vitamin C did not exist simultaneously in > blood, and thus never had the opportunity to react with each other. > What's more, the Science study used a concentration of rancid fats which in > biochemical terms was " a ton. " Studies have shown that, in blood, rancid > fats exist in concentrations which are 10,000-fold lower than what was used > in the Science experiment. Again, this casts serious doubt on the relevance > of these results for living organisms. > To conclude from this study that vitamin C causes cancer would be as > preposterous as to say that we have found a cure for cancer based on a > simple test tube experiment. > In fact, many animal studies and cell culture experiments have demonstrated > anticancer effects of vitamin C, and the vitamin has been used > therapeutically in human cancer patients with some apparent benefit. " > > > Vit D is very toxic. If more than what is recommended > > is taken it can cause kidney failure and death. > > Prolonged usage can cause calcification of soft tissue. > > Low Ca diets and stopping Vit D can reverse most toxic > > symptoms, except for kidney failure. Most people can > > get more than enough Vit D from being out in the sun. > > Most people do get enough Vit D from the sun, and from the Vit D fortified > dairy products they use. Most people do not supplement Vit D, unless they > do not get enough sunlight, (such as in the state of Washington!), or are > treating a specific illness. > > > > > The above are all studies and facts I pulled from the > > American College of Advancement in Medicine and the > > American Association of Naturopathic Physicians. > > > > I am not against supplements, I just get the feeling > > from many women that more is better and that vitamins > > and supplements are a cure-all. While some supplements > > are good and are necessary if you are truly deficient, > > some supplements are not needed and people are possibly > > doing more harm than good. > > While that is a possibility, I would like to point out that for most of us > who have been harmed by implants, the chances of us being deficient due to > malabsorption are greater than for others. It is important to get good > quality vitamins, and not the cheap stuff found at drugstores. > > There are some women who > > post just about daily wanting to know if they should try > > this or that, and what dose, etc. This is what worries > > me, and this is where the placebo effect comes into > > play. > > It is not up to us to judge what may be a placebo affect or not. And even > if it is, it that so bad, if it helps someone feel better?????? > > I get the strong impression that some women are > > so desperate to feel better (rightfully so) that they > > want to try anything and everything. And these are the > > women who will say that they feel 100% better even if > > they don't need the supplement or even if it really > > isn't doing any good. They read the other posts and > > feel that if it works for someone else then it'll work > > for them. Not true. > > Ditto above. These statements have already been made in former posts, by > the way. I have stated many times that what may work for one may not work > for the other. But I would much prefer to give something a try and see if > it works than sit around wondering how I can feel better. > > > > I also understand that many of us have been sickened by > > chemicals, and rx pills are chemicals. So, I can see > > why there are many women out there who don't want to put > > anymore chemicals into their body, and therefore turn to > > supplements and natural medicines. What we aren't > > seeing is that natural cures can be just as toxic and > > dangerous as rx cures, sometimes even worse. > > This is not true in the least!!! Natural cures have a clean history. Rx > cures have killed thousands. > > > Homeopathic medicines still have to be processed and > > broken down by a major organ in our body and can be > > tough on that organ. > > Not true. Where are you getting this information? > > And as much as I agree with > > alternative medicine, and wish that alternative medicine > > can cure our problems, it never will. > > Also not true. This is your opinion, not fact. > > The fact of the > > matter is is that we will always need Western meds > > because vitamins, supplements, and herbs cannot cure us > > of a bacterial infection, fix our cardiac problems, our > > respiratory problems, our broken bones, our failing > > eyesight, etc. So far, only Western meds can fix > > these. I sincerely hope that the day will come when we > > rarely use Western meds, and instead use herbs, > > supplements, and vitamins. But until then, we cannot > > assume that alternative medicine will " fix " us. If that > > was the case, then there would be no need for > > physicians, nurses, hospitals, surgeries, clinics, etc. > > > I agree that allopathic medicine is needed to fix broken bones, gunshot > wounds, heart attacks, infections, fix eyesight, and other acute health > conditions. But that is where I draw the line. > > Natural medicine can do much, because it is based on the premise that the > body has a healing capability if supported in its efforts. Long term results > are the goal, not quick fixes. Natural medicine treats the underlying > problem, not the symptoms of the problem. Allopathic medicine is short > sighted in this respect. > > What is clearly evident is that those who practice traditional Western > medicine lack the understanding that natural medicine therapies have existed > for many thousands of years and are a legitimate form of medicine. They are > body-friendly therapies. They heal. They support body functions. They work > in conjunction with the body as it throws off wastes and does its house > cleaning and cellular rebuilding. They can stand alone, without the need of > Western medicine ideas, in areas of degenerative disease. > > Western medicine ideas have usurped all that has gone before it, in an > arrogant, expensive, and politically motivated push and shove match to reign > over America. The successes of pharmaceutical drugs has colored every > aspect of what good medicine is. Man has become God in his own sight when it > comes to the human body, thinking we can push pills, pull, twist, cut, sew, > implant, inject, rearrange, or otherwise manipulate the body however we > want, and that what we have done is " good for all. " What has ensued is a > corrupt system which holds incredible power over human lives. Associations > have taken on life of their own to become the purveyors of " the truth " , when > in fact, they often dispense falsehoods. Need I mention the " lifetime " that > plastic surgeons claimed for our implants? It was nothing more than an > idea that proved false in the end. How many other times has this happened? > Too many to count! > > And now we have an epidemic of mutant bacteria strains on our hands from the > overuse of antibiotics. What will we do now? I really don't think man can > outdo God, though he still thinks he can. > > And yet, here sits natural medicine on the sidelines, making no wild claims, > no hoopla, just the idea that the many hundreds of thousands of people have > used it through the centuries, from Hippocrates, the Father of Medicine, to > Indians, to Chinese, to Greek, to whoever, a collection of wisdom through > the ages to help fight disease naturally. I am thankful for the scientific > advances we have made, but I wish we could have done it differently, and > held on to the integrity that medicine needs to have. I don't trust Western > medicine at all now. > > > > I myself take some supplements, including a multivit > > (which does contain Mg), MSM, and malic acid. I am, > > however, on a supplement holiday, as it didn't seem that > > they were working anymore. But I plan to go back on > > them soon. I definately noticed an improvement in my > > pain with the MSM and I noticed more energy with the > > multivit. Unfortunately, I didn't notice any > > improvement with the malic acid. But I'm going to try > > it again. > > Glad to hear it. > > > > Anyway, I don't want people to think that I'm totally > > against vits and supplements because I'm not. I just > > think that there is the mindset that because these > > supplements don't need a rx, then they are safe and that > > more is better. I think that we need to go about > > choosing our vits and supplements in an intelligent, > > well researched way. > > That is the key--with intelligence. Get rid of your biases first. > Patty > > > > Anyway, thanks for listening. I will get off my soapbox > > now. > > > > e > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 2001 Report Share Posted July 29, 2001 > Patty, > > First of all, how dare you insult my intelligence and > accuse me of being biased!! You speak like you are some > medical guru. Well, I got news for you, babe--you're > not. Not even close. e, Obviously you missed the post immediately following the original: " By the way, I didn't mean to sound like I was pointing a finger at you, e...I meant anyone who wants to research or study health issues should get rid of their biases first. Too many in that field already are biased against alternative medicine. But I am not stupid--there are many biased the other way, too, against allopathic medicine. Patty " I will not take this issue any further, except to state that I have come no where near you in your level of insults and arrogance. In that I will grant your superiority. I will also state that I made it no secret that anyone who comes on this support group and claims that alternative medicine does not work will get a big argument from me. I have seen it work in my own life and the lives of others. It is my choice of treatment, and I also am not alone, dear e. I have had enough contact with doctors and alternative medicine practitioners to understand more than you give me credit for. You have no idea what my background is or my life is like. You make assumptions with no knowledge whatsoever about me. This is not to your credit. I will not debate with you any further about these issues, and I will not stop sharing the info that I believe to be helpful to the members of this group. I will further make clear that personal attacks to ANY member on this group will not be tolerated, (as was covered before you arrived, e) and those who do make personal attacks like you just did will be banned from this group. This support group is about healing and encouragement. It will stay that way, and those who choose not to contribute in a positive manner will be asked to leave. Patty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 30, 2001 Report Share Posted July 30, 2001 Patty, For your information, I never rec'd that last bit of info. It was nowhere on the post from you. And furthermore, you cannot claim to know all about alternative medicine when you do not have the education or training to claim such. Reading from books is one thing, actually being schooled and versed in the field is another. You do have excellent info about alternative medicine, and I have always respected your input. However, when I brought up the Mg issue, you continued to attack me and insinuate that I had no right to be making the statements that I did because I didn't have references. I do have references, but at this present time, as I told you, all my references are packed in my car. However, my schooling, background, and education can speak for themselves. Not only am I a RN, but I am also a legal nurse consultant who has been asked to provide expert testimony for cases related to alternative medicine, including supplements. So, not only do I have to be well schooled in medicine, but I also have to know the laws governing the regulation (or non-regulation) of supplements/vitamins/herbs/minerals. I have been asked to speak to several medical professionals throughout the yrs, including physicians, nurses, dieticians, PA's, nurse practitioners, med students, and nursing students about anatomy, physiology, critical care nursing, alternative medicine, psychiatry, pain mangement, and IV therapy. Prior to becoming a RN, I was an EMT in the ER, and therefore I think I am safe in saying that I have the knowledge of physiology, laws, anatomy, and disease processes that you lack. If you consider these personal attacks, so be it. I certainly have taken your posts personally and feel that YOU have been the one attacking me. I have been forced to provide references when I shouldn't have to. I did this because I wanted the group to have both sides of the " debate " and be able to make informed decisions about choosing supplements and other products. Furthermore, I think that a good debate on these sites is good, and keeps everyone on their toes and well informed of both sides of the issue(s). I have only provided facts, and in fact, have encouraged women to do the research and make a choice after doing their research. I understand that you are pro alternative medicine, and I agree with you *to a point*. Regardless of what you say, supplements can be dangerous if not taken in the right way. And more is not necessarily better, and I think that some women on this group seem to think it is. In light of all this controversy, I will resign from the group. Again, I will not be degraded and made to sound that I am attacking you. What I posted was only AFTER you attacked me. And again, I will reiterate that I think that you need to reexamine your statements and consider who is biased here. Fondly, e, RN, BSN, LNC > > > Patty, > > > > First of all, how dare you insult my intelligence and > > accuse me of being biased!! You speak like you are some > > medical guru. Well, I got news for you, babe--you're > > not. Not even close. > > e, > Obviously you missed the post immediately following the original: > > " By the way, I didn't mean to sound like I was pointing a finger at > you, > e...I meant anyone who wants to research or study health issues > should > get rid of their biases first. Too many in that field already are > biased > against alternative medicine. But I am not stupid--there are many > biased > the other way, too, against allopathic medicine. > Patty " > > I will not take this issue any further, except to state that I have > come no where near you in your level of insults and arrogance. In > that I will grant your superiority. > > I will also state that I made it no secret that anyone who comes on > this support group and claims that alternative medicine does not work > will get a big argument from me. I have seen it work in my own life > and the lives of others. It is my choice of treatment, and I also am > not alone, dear e. I have had enough contact with doctors and > alternative medicine practitioners to understand more than you give > me credit for. You have no idea what my background is or my life is > like. You make assumptions with no knowledge whatsoever about me. > This is not to your credit. > > I will not debate with you any further about these issues, and I will > not stop sharing the info that I believe to be helpful to the members > of this group. I will further make clear that personal attacks to > ANY member on this group will not be tolerated, (as was covered > before you arrived, e) and those who do make personal attacks > like you just did will be banned from this group. > > This support group is about healing and encouragement. It will stay > that way, and those who choose not to contribute in a positive manner > will be asked to leave. > Patty > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.