Magnesium

[Guest guest]

Hello everyone. I told you that I would find some

journal articles and scientific info on Mg and whether

it is safe to supplement if your serum levels or WNL or

not. Well, as promised, here is the info. There is

quite a bit out there, so I have tried to condense it as

much as possible. Anyone who has any further questions,

please feel free to contact me or ask your treating

physician.

Magnesium, without a doubt, is an electrolyte that we

cannot live without. It is necessary for normal

cardiac, musculoskeletal, GI, neurologic, and mental

function. However, in too large of an amount, Mg can be

toxic and very dangerous. That is why Mg supplements

are not needed if you eat a balanced diet (Micromedex,

Thomson Healthcare, 2000). A well balanced diet

supplies all the Mg you need. Mg is found in dark green

leafy vegetables, fish, including bluefish, carp, cod,

flounder, halibut, herring, mackerel, shrimp, and

swordfish. It's also found in fruits and fruit juices,

dairy products, nuts, including almonds, molasses,

soybeans, sunflower seeds, wheat germ, and snails. The

RDA of Mg is 300mg/day (ADAM Encyclopedia, 1999). Mg

excess almost always occurs when it is supplemented

(ADAM Encyclopedia, 1999).

In additon, Mg can interact with certain meds, one of

those being tetracycline (TCN). Mg causes the TCN to

not work properly. If you have heart disease, Mg can

make it worse. If you have kidney problems, Mg

supplements can rapidly lead to hypermagnesemia

(Micromedex Thomson Healthcare, 2000). Mg is broken

down and processed by the kidneys.

On the flip side, a high fat diet can cause a decrease

in Mg levels, requiring Mg supplements or a change in

diet. Also, as we age, our serum Mg levels decrease,

therefore requiring us to eat more of the foods that

contain Mg, or else take supplements (American

Association of Naturopathic Physicians, 2001).

In determining whether an individual requires Mg

supplements, it is important to look at the diet the

person adheres to, look for any signs of hypomagnesemia,

and check serum Mg levels. Another good indicator of Mg

levels is to check a calcium and potassium level.

Unexplained hypocalcemia (low Ca) and hypokalemia (low

K+) suggest the possibility of Mg depletion (The Merck

Manual, Ch 12: H2O, Electrolyte, Mineral, and Acid Base

Metabolism, 2001). These 3 tests are the most reliable

way to determine the need for Mg supplementation

(Minerals: Drug Facts and Comparisons. 2000: pages 27-

57). Mg challenges are generally not used anymore in

the US. The reason for this is because by administering

IV Mg, a pt is placed at great risk for hypermagnesemia

and sudden cardiac death. It is a dangerous practice

and several studies from the early 90's to present have

shown that checking serum/plasma Mg levels are reliable

indicators of Mg. These plasma levels of Mg, combined

with Ca and K levels are the most accurate way to

determine if an individual is hypo or hyermagnesemic

( E. Godine, MD Harvard Medical School;

Massachusetts General Hospital).

The public needs to be aware of signs/symptoms of high

and low Mg levels, so that treatment can be sought out.

Symptoms of Mg deficiency are: nausea; muscle weakness;

sleep disorders; fatigue; confusion; arrhythmias; muscle

cramps, decreased appetite; depression; constipation

( Tessmer, RD, LD, April 2, 2001).

High levels of Mg from supplements can cause: diarrhea;

nausea; vomiting; hypotension; prolonged QTc interval,

and drowsiness ( Tessmer, RD, LD, April 2, 2001).

Because Mg is filtered and processed via the kidneys,

the kidneys are able to limit urinary excretion of Mg

when intake is low ( K. Rude, MD, USC School of

Medicine. Silverman, H et al. The Vitamin Book, 1999:

pages 270-276). So, if you have healthy kidneys, then

there is almost no reason why an individual should ever

be critically low on Mg. If you combine diet and the

ability of the kidneys to limit Mg excretion, then our

bodies are well protected against low levels.

The big debate, though, is whether taking Mg supplements

is necessary and/or harmful. The majority of physicians

in the US will not recommend Mg supplements if all tests

show a normal Mg level. While toxicity is rare, it can

happen, and a person can experience the symptoms of

hypermagnesemia without being toxic. Any dose of Mg

more than the upper level of intake or RDA should be

conducted under strict medical supervision (Harvey

Simon, Md; Massachusetts Institute of Technology,

Massachussetts General Hospital; American College of

Advancement in Medicine)

Other studies that are currently being conducted are

balance studies. These involve the measurement of the

intake of Mg as well as the elimination of it in urine,

feces, sweat, etc. If intake is more than loss, then

individual is in a + balance. If intake is less than

loss, the individual is in a - balance (Institute of

Medicine; Food and Nutrition Board. Ca, Phos, Mg, Vit

D, and folic acid; 1997: pages 190-249).

So, based on the above information, it is not only

uneccessary to take Mg supplements if you eat a healthy,

balanced diet, but it can also be extremely dangerous.

However, if you have an illness and are being treated

with certain meds, then Mg supplementation may be

necessary. The only way to know for sure is to have a

serum/plasma Mg level done, as well as a Ca and K

level. Then a decision between you and your physician

can be made.

e

[Guest guest]

A few things regarding magnesium...

I have uploaded a comma separated variable file (*.csv) to the files section

of the group that is ranked by a calculation of the milligrams of magnesium

per kilocalorie (calorie) of all of the foods with listed magnesium content

in the USDA SR14. I removed some of the artificial prepared foods (like TV

dinners and instant pudding powders) before I got tired of doing that and

decided to simply upload it in its current state. I keep a local copy of

the database for just such anal retentive things as this! ;-)

....also...

Milk's nutrition is dependent *to a point* on diet, however the body of the

mother/animal is trying to deliver particular *ratios* of specific nutrients

as well as absolute quantities of nutrients. Magnesium is a nutrient that

is extremely important to have in proper ratio with calcium, phosphorous and

others. The natural ratio of magnesium to other minerals in ruminant milks

is well below what humans (at least adult humans) seem to require. I have

no data to show that this will remain more or less true regardless of

quality of the diet, but I'm rationally confident that this is the case.

I'm certain that better quality forage (and simply getting *any* forage)

would improve the amounts, but I don't think that it would ever make milk a

particularly *good* magnesium food. Ordinary milk appears to have

approximately 0.17 mg of magnesium per kilocalorie. That means that if

someone with calorie needs of about 2000 kilocalories per day tried to meet

their magnesium needs with milk alone they would get about 80-90% of their

RDA. Especially since RDA is not an *optimal* intake but rather a minimal

intake, we can see that milk is a magnesium deficient food. For what it's

worth, coconut milk is a much better source of magnesium at approximately

0.23 mg/KCal.

I had a third thing, but now I've forgotten it! Oh well! :-)

[Guest guest]

oooh oooh! I remembered!

,

On the issue of grasses as a human food. I think the issue is that we

should not be eating whole grasses. However, as I mentioned in a separate

post today, other primates practice a method of natural juicing that

involves chewing the food, squeezing out the juice with their mouth and

spitting out the fibrous remainder. Other primates do consume some grasses.

So I find it at least reasonable that grasses at least *could* be a useful

food. ...an unmitigatedly disgusting food, IMHO, but a food nonetheless.

NOTHING tastes worse to me than wheatgrass juice!

[Guest guest]

--- Kroyer <skroyer@...> wrote:

> NOTHING tastes worse to me than wheatgrass juice!

>

Hmmm... I find it pretty tasty, in small quantities (1

or 2 oz).

Roman

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

> Hmmm... I find it pretty tasty, in small quantities (1

> or 2 oz).

It takes a herculean effort for me to not vomit after drinking a single shot

(about 1 oz). I love almost all vegetables. There are extremely few basic

flavors that I don't like, but wheatgrass juice is most definitely one that

I can't stand.

[Guest guest]

> I watched them feed the wheat

> >grass

> >> through the juicer into a cup which I had a couple sips from.  My

> >god, I'd

> >> rather face a firing squad or eat raw kidneys!  <g>

> >> -

>

> Never had wheatgrass juice but it seems as appetizing as the kidneys

Dad would

> give to the English neighbor along with " Boil the p*** out of them,

Rose " Was

> the only organ he had no use for and there has to be a reason. Think

I'd try

> the predigested grass in the intestine in the Guts and Grease

article first.

> Wanita

Wanita, Do I have to wade thru guts and grease to chew wheatgrass? I

don't get it, obviously.(I made myself say it) Do any of you know

how nasty raw liver is? REgards, Dennis

[Guest guest]

Dennis-

>, Do you cook it since it's plant material? Dennis

I've used coconut cream both ways, actually. I'm not aware of any

anti-nutrients in coconuts.

-

[Guest guest]

>I dunno... are we 'meant' to eat spinach? kale? lettuce? etc?

>>>>To whatever degree our digestive systems can extract nutrition from them

without us suffering any harm -- IOW to whatever degree we're adapted to

them -- yes.

***Well, maybe I'm not following you...are you saying that we're more

adapted to extracting nutrients from these plants more so than grass? If,

so, based on what? Or, are you saying that none of these plants, whether

grass or domestic green leafies are particularly healthy for humans to

consume?

Basically, I'm wondering why any domesticated leafy green veggie would be

any more digestible, such as spinach, kale, etc. than a wild (or domestic)

plant such as grass?

>>>I'm not sure how much of a difference being powdered makes,

actually. While I suppose the process cracks the cell walls, isn't there

still going to be a lot of indigestible starch in the grass?

***I honestly don't know, but the grass powder I use is a combo of micro

pulverized leaf and juice extract - I'd say it's as properly prepared as is

any fermented grain, and probably a lot more nutritious than grains no

matter how you prepare them, aside from the beneficial bacteria produced

during fermentation.

>>>>Humans just

aren't grazers, so I just don't think grass formed part of our natural diet

except as an occasional emetic or purgative.

***Well, aside from the Masai, and maybe a few regional Europeans in the

last 10,000 years or so, we are not *natural* milk drinkers either, are we?

(Meaning *adult* humans.) And, if we are not meant to eat grass, then why do

we eat *any* leafy green vegetables?

Suze Fisher

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

-

[Guest guest]

>>> I've also found that the occasional can of

original TK milk I still find on the market is solid, like hydrogenated

lard, and has an off smell.

***, why *wouldn't* it be solid with all those saturated fats in there?

I've been using this brand recently (the pure coconut milk - nothing added)

and it smells fine and is solid, although one can separated after

refrigeration.

Suze Fisher

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

[Guest guest]

> >I dunno... are we 'meant' to eat spinach? kale? lettuce? etc?

>

> >>>>To whatever degree our digestive systems can extract nutrition

from them

> without us suffering any harm -- IOW to whatever degree we're

adapted to

> them -- yes.

>

> ***Well, maybe I'm not following you...are you saying that we're

more

> adapted to extracting nutrients from these plants more so than

grass? If,

> so, based on what? Or, are you saying that none of these plants,

whether

> grass or domestic green leafies are particularly healthy for humans

to

> consume?

>

> Basically, I'm wondering why any domesticated leafy green veggie

would be

> any more digestible, such as spinach, kale, etc. than a wild (or

domestic)

> plant such as grass?

>

> >>>I'm not sure how much of a difference being powdered makes,

> actually. While I suppose the process cracks the cell walls, isn't

there

> still going to be a lot of indigestible starch in the grass?

>

> ***I honestly don't know, but the grass powder I use is a combo of

micro

> pulverized leaf and juice extract - I'd say it's as properly

prepared as is

> any fermented grain, and probably a lot more nutritious than grains

no

> matter how you prepare them, aside from the beneficial bacteria

produced

> during fermentation.

>

> >>>>Humans just

> aren't grazers, so I just don't think grass formed part of our

natural diet

> except as an occasional emetic or purgative.

>

> ***Well, aside from the Masai, and maybe a few regional Europeans in

the

> last 10,000 years or so, we are not *natural* milk drinkers either,

are we?

> (Meaning *adult* humans.) And, if we are not meant to eat grass,

then why do

> we eat *any* leafy green vegetables?

>

>

> Suze Fisher

> Web Design & Development

> http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

> mailto:s.fisher22@v...

>

>

> -A couple thoughts. When cows graze for a day they probably eat 2

bushels, around 75 pounds. I chew wheatgrass, probably 2 or 3

handfuls, when it's in season. Wheatgrasss fiber is cellulose and

hemicellulose not starch. And " if we are not meant to eat grass, then

why do we eat *any* leafy green vegetables? " That's what I was

wondering. Good question. Regards, Dennis

[Guest guest]

Suze-

>, why *wouldn't* it be solid with all those saturated fats in there?

>I've been using this brand recently (the pure coconut milk - nothing added)

>and it smells fine and is solid, although one can separated after

>refrigeration.

Well, fresh coconut milk has too much water to be solid, so unless there's

a lot more fat than they're saying, I don't see why canned coconut milk

should be solid either. (Remember, I'm not even talking about coconut

cream, let alone coconut oil, just coconut milk.) Also, the Thai Kitchen

cans I used to get smelled better and were liquid, whereas the last few

" Pure " cans I got all smelled off and were solid.

-

[Guest guest]

hi, paul--

> Well, fresh coconut milk has too much water to be solid,<

fresh coconut milk has only as much water as the person who makes it

wants it to have.

allene

[Guest guest]

Suze-

>Well, maybe I'm not following you...are you saying that we're more

>adapted to extracting nutrients from these plants more so than grass? If,

>so, based on what?

Definitely. Based on the composition of grass and the kind of digestive

system required to extract nutrition from it.

>Or, are you saying that none of these plants, whether

>grass or domestic green leafies are particularly healthy for humans to

>consume?

No, it does seem likely that at least some vegetables are a net benefit,

but a lot of the science out there is junk. They'll isolate some chemical

from a vegetable, for example, and then determine in vitro that that

chemical seems to be beneficial. Well, maybe it's also beneficial in vivo

and maybe it isn't, but even if it is, that's not by itself any reason to

assume that the source vegetable is a net positive when consumed whole.

>Basically, I'm wondering why any domesticated leafy green veggie would be

>any more digestible, such as spinach, kale, etc. than a wild (or domestic)

>plant such as grass?

Just for starters because domesticated plants have been bred for energy

density and digestibility to such a degree that they don't obviously

resemble their wild ancestors. That doesn't mean that all crops have been

bred all the way to the point that they're 100% healthy for you, but

they're certainly lots more edible than their wild ancestors and cousins.

>Well, aside from the Masai, and maybe a few regional Europeans in the

>last 10,000 years or so, we are not *natural* milk drinkers either, are we?

Perhaps not, but unlike grass, milk doesn't require a dramatically

different kind of digestive system from the one we have. Look at dogs, who

have fairly similar digestive tracts. They only eat grass when they need

to purge. By comparison, the digestive systems of ruminants are completely

alien to ours.

Furthermore, I think it's highly likely that lactose intolerance is a

result of pasteurization, so if the only milk on the market were " real "

milk, it wouldn't surprise me if lactose intolerance became a vanishingly

rare phenomenon. We're all at least meant to start out drinking milk.

-

[Guest guest]

>>>>Speaking of coconut oil, are there any other natural fats or oils which

have

a higher percentage of saturated fatty acids?

***Palm and palm kernel.

Suze Fisher

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

[Guest guest]

On Fri, 12 Apr 2002 07:46:04 -0400 " Suze Fisher " <s.fisher22@...>

writes:

Are you speaking of 'whole' grass, or powdered? Or both? If I'm not

mistaken, dr. schulze has had great success returning 'very' sick folks

to

health in part with his superfood that contains a good amount of powdered

grasses.

Anyway, I'm not arguing that powdered grasses are 'natural' or 'right'

for

humans, they *are* more nutrient-dense than many (or most or all?)

vegetables, and make for a better addendum to my diet than a synthetic

vitamin would, IMO.

But, if there's some evidence that they 'cause' bowel disease and other

problems, I'd like to read it - maybe I'll remove them from my diet if I

find they're detrimental. Do you have any URLs that might provide more

info?

*******I'd like some info on this as well.

Bianca

[Guest guest]

On Fri, 12 Apr 2002 22:12:20 -0400 " Suze Fisher " <s.fisher22@...>

writes:

***Well, aside from the Masai, and maybe a few regional Europeans in the

last 10,000 years or so, we are not *natural* milk drinkers either, are

we?

(Meaning *adult* humans.)

+++++++++I'm not convinced of this. Would someone care to enlighten me?

Bianca

[Guest guest]

>>>Outside of Superfood, I prefer the proxy method of getting my grasses,

like buffalo, cow, ostrich, lamb, etc. :-)

How much superfood do you eat bianca?

I tried adding it to my morning shake, but it's a bit too salty with the

nutritional yeast in there. So now I just use powdered grasses without the

yeast. I do LOVE superfood on popcorn, though! )

Suze Fisher

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

[Guest guest]

Me:

>>>>>***Well, aside from the Masai, and maybe a few regional Europeans in

the

last 10,000 years or so, we are not *natural* milk drinkers either, are

we?

(Meaning *adult* humans.)

Bianca:

+++++++++I'm not convinced of this. Would someone care to enlighten me?

Me:

*I* can't - it's merely an opinion, and could very well be wrong. was

saying how unnatural it is for humans to eat grass, so my point was that I'm

not convinced that we are 'natural' milk drinkers any more than we are

'natural' grass eaters. I eat both, natural or not.

What do you think? And why?

Suze Fisher

Web Design & Development

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3shjg/

mailto:s.fisher22@...

[Guest guest]

> >>>>>***Well, aside from the Masai, and maybe a few regional Europeans in

> the

> last 10,000 years or so, we are not *natural* milk drinkers either, are

> we?

> (Meaning *adult* humans.)

>

>

> Bianca:

> +++++++++I'm not convinced of this. Would someone care to enlighten me?

>

> Suze Fisher:

> *I* can't - it's merely an opinion, and could very well be wrong. was

> saying how unnatural it is for humans to eat grass, so my point was that

I'm

> not convinced that we are 'natural' milk drinkers any more than we are

> 'natural' grass eaters. I eat both, natural or not.

>

> What do you think? And why?

While it may be true that humans did not drink milk until fairly recently,

it's also true that milk contains many of the most important components of

foods which humans had eaten in the past with great success. It's rich in

fat (mostly saturated, of course), protein, minerals, vitamins, sugars, and

enzymes--in short, just about everything which we need to survive and

flourish. They may not be there in the correct proportions, and lactose

isn't really the best sugar for adult humans to consume, but it's close

enough. Grass, on the other hand, is utterly foreign. It has virtually no

caloric value, and while it does contain some valuable minerals, they're

encased in cellulose, which, in laymen's terms, is wood.

[Guest guest]

> > >>>>>***Well, aside from the Masai, and maybe a few regional

Europeans in

> > the

> > last 10,000 years or so, we are not *natural* milk drinkers

either, are

> > we?

> > (Meaning *adult* humans.)

> >

> >

> > Bianca:

> > +++++++++I'm not convinced of this. Would someone care to

enlighten me?

> >

> > Suze Fisher:

> > *I* can't - it's merely an opinion, and could very well be wrong.

was

> > saying how unnatural it is for humans to eat grass, so my point

was that

> I'm

> > not convinced that we are 'natural' milk drinkers any more than we

are

> > 'natural' grass eaters. I eat both, natural or not.

> >

> > What do you think? And why?

>

> While it may be true that humans did not drink milk until fairly

recently,

> it's also true that milk contains many of the most important

components of

> foods which humans had eaten in the past with great success. It's

rich in

> fat (mostly saturated, of course), protein, minerals, vitamins,

sugars, and

> enzymes--in short, just about everything which we need to survive

and

> flourish. They may not be there in the correct proportions, and

lactose

> isn't really the best sugar for adult humans to consume, but it's

close

> enough. Grass, on the other hand, is utterly foreign. It has

virtually no

> caloric value, and while it does contain some valuable minerals,

they're

> encased in cellulose, which, in laymen's terms, is wood.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>, You think the juices in grass are encased

in wood? How do you account for the Brix, the measurement of sugars,

in plant tissue as measured with the refractometer? Some minerals and

some CHO's must be bioavailable to humans. Dennis