Guest guest Posted December 30, 2006 Report Share Posted December 30, 2006 Hi Katharine: Thank you for telling me your story. Believe me, I know what you mean. Fortunately you never gave up. That is what I am trying to do with my son., He got hit with a baseball bat on the head and he also changed in his temperament and of course his erradic mood changes and tremendous stress. Besides what I described earlier of inability to concentrate., I know that the machines are only used to transfer data to the computer screen. that he is doing it with his own concentration.,. But they could never supress the low frequency and activate the beta waves. The doctor was very frustrated because we spend a lot of money and it still did not work. She consulted a neurologist and he suggested to apply the electrodes in the back of the head to see if that would prompt the frontal lobe brain map. Do you know how to interprete it? I would love to get as much information about this as possible. so far you are the only one that talks to me about this in this group. As far as you daughter's change in mood, the neurofeedback doctor told us that people who receive head injuries, they have these changes in mood becoming generally unpleasent, to say the least. Is your daughter seizure free? Can you tell me what she did? does she still have any lingering problems because of the seizures? Do you speak any other language besides german and english? I speak spanish. Any info is appreciated. Thanks, TVA12082208@... wrote: In einer eMail vom 29.12.06 06:59:51 (MEZ) Mitteleuropäische Zeit schreibt lindae321@...: > Hi Katharina: > My son does not have seizures. He has inability to pay attention for > extended periods of time. He was also tested and found to problem solve by > undetermined ways. In other ways, not like most people do, Then he had the brain > map and it showed the high production of the very slow waves and inability to > produce beta waves, in the frontal lobe, which are necessary for > concentration and problem solving. As I understand, there are several different types of > machines. Some are moved by your own concentration and that trains the brain > to activate certain brain waves. > The others actually put out small electrical current and stimulate certain > parts of the brain. This stimulates the production of waves and balance > throughout the brain. > In know that yogis can sculp their brain through different types of > meditation, but you must be able to train yourself to settle down and concentrate and > this is just what he has not figured out how to do (ADD). > > I am amazed by his effort considering there are millions of people out there > whose brains work correctly and they don't even make it through high school. > Of course, if you are one of those whose brain not only works properly, but > you are in the gifted range, you would have a hard time comprehending the > effort that > handicapped people make for what may come easy to you, > > My son is not part of this group because he does not have the faith and > patience that it takes to talk to people, time after time, until you finally find > someone who knows something that you don't already know and is kind enough > to spend the time to write back. He seems to prefer to read articles. > > I have found very valuable information through this group. I like to pass on > to others what I have learned. I always hope that someone can control their > seizure condition through natural means, like I have, > Thanks, > > > Hi , so nice of you to write about the specifics of the treatment. I will share what I know for you below. First I want to give you a bit of what we experienced over here. I am located in Europe and non-English. My story is rather lengthy. To cut it short: I am not the one with seizures, it is my daughter, after a bad falling accident (age 11) that left her with two scars in the brain. She was not diagnosed, and not treated, properly at hospital, later developped the seizures (CPS generalizing into GM), and put on phenhydan (in the US this is Dilantin) to control the seizures. When she was circulated through the out-patient treatment (neurologist's exam, lab for blood test, EEG), the doctor, meanwhile, got hold of me to talk to me, and to indoctrinate me about staying on the meds. At the beginning I had trust in the doctors, and we were the " super ideal model picture book compliant patient " , including the mother. Only that reality was a little bit different from what the doctor had told us. By and by, I realized a change happening in my daughter. She had been the sweetest most promising little girl and became a totally different person. I was seeking for causes. Should I blame it on puberty? or false friends? or maybe her own character flaws like laziness (which she had not had before!! and there were yet other major issues)? During the talks with the doctor I came up with my observations about her personality change and was plain brushed off. I was told: No, this was completely normal, and there was absolutely no cause for me to worry about. So, I thought it was a matter of child rearing: I kept adhorting and admonishing (how completely beside the point!) and expecting things and behavior from her part that she simply could not achieve under the circumstances (medication). Lack of adequate information is a frequent cause of sufferings. Imagine how utterly misunderstood she must have felt during that time, which did not any good to our relationship, as you may divine. Also so many activities that she had cherished were taken away from her (riding on horseback, swimming etc.), and many tears rolled down her cheeks over this. It was only 18 years later (yes: eighteen!) when I discovered by my own formal studies that it was the medication that had brought about the change. Over the years, I had become a professional in that field, and thus gained access to materials that were out of reach to the genereal public. There is vital info that is not printed on the insert slip of the meds. I will never forget that moment at the end of July 1999 when I stood at the computer in the library and read the expert's info about the meds my daughter had been given over the years: One of the side effects listed was " irreversible cerebellar atrophy " . I felt like the floor was gone from under my feet. Even in this infinite shock, it rang the bell in me, and in one instance I comprehended her personality and behavioral changes. From that day on I fervently researched for some other means to help my daughter. I did not even tell her what I had found out, for fear she would be shocked like myself, plus I did not know what to offer her as a feasible alternative. When I had spoken about my own problems in understanding my daughter's behavioral issues with collegues (!) at university, they would not listen to me, some would even walk out on me and not even say hello to me any more. Nobody wanted to hear anything about seizures. It is a taboo to the biggest part of our society, and prejudice and discrimination are wide-spread. The greatest help came from people from the US, from the different groups and lists I joined. I will forever stay grateful to these lovely people. I learned that socalled " lay(wo)men " can be experts, that other people had experienced fates similar to mine, and above all: that, in general, there is a natural way out from that meds-misery. I developped my own method to bring seizure activity to a halt, and after being successful with patients, approached a lady from the sick insurances, and asked her, why, when there are other and better methods to deal with seizures, would one give such detrimental medication to patients. She flatly answered me: It is hoped that the patients die soon. I was flabbergasted. Her attitude could only be explained by the history of my country. When I had settled with the knowledge about other means to control seizure activity, I sent my daughter a FAX, cautiously insinuating there was something about her meds, and that there was something better to administer. With that FAX in hand, she went to her doctor, and IMMEDIATELY her medication was changed! This is what I was going through over the years, before being lucky enough to find the US groups. Such groups do not exist here. The self-help groups over here are dominated by allopathy. The notorious financial shortcomings of self-help groups here makes it easy for pharm companies to take over. So they are no real help. Those deeply involved into allopathy have an enormous economic power, and they mis-use it to silence those who " play the maverick " . ~~~~~~~~~~~ , the methods you discribe are two completely different things: A) " there are several different types of machines. Some are moved by your own concentration and that trains the brain to activate certain brain waves. " ---It is not the machines that are moved, but the " movement " that takes place in the brain is made visible to the patient. This is called bio or neurofeedback, and is some sort of imaging. " The others actually put out small electrical current and stimulate certain parts of the brain. This stimulates the production of waves and balance throughout the brain. " ---Here, there is input into the brain through a device that actually influences the brain in the mode of its activity. It is really completely different from biofeedback, and does not require your son's own voluntary concentration on something, over a stretch of time. It is called frequency therapy. This could be of great help to your son. You write about " slow waves " . To say something adequate one needs to know the hard figures, not an interpretation of figures. Even " delta, theta, alpha, beta " are too inaccurate. You might want to ask your doctors about the real figures e.g. " wavelength 4 " or " 6 " . Four would be in the delta range, and I did see children even in the delta range of two, and wide awake, and so hyperactive, one would not believe it. Whatever these medical findings are: respect to your son, who must be a real problem solver in his realm, no matter what the " standards " say. He does his job, and if he is using other pathways, so what? I would not try to change him. Only if he had issues that would make him suffer, be it emotionally or physically: that would be an occasion to seek a better solution, for his sake. As for his perference to read articles, that is an excellent method to gain knowledge. Warm regards to you, and, please, also give my kind regards to your son. Katharina Mit freundlichen Gruessen Katharina Gutsche Sincerely, Katharina www.Auto-Thera.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Katharina Gutsche, M.A. Psycholinguistics, Dipl.-Psych.Clinical Psychology, State Licensured Naturopath (Psychotherapy) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2006 Report Share Posted December 30, 2006 , Dr. Barry Sterman, who was at UCLA, is a pioneer in neurofeedback. I think he has already retired from UCLA but he may be consulting. CY <lindae321@...> wrote: Hi Katharine: Thank you for telling me your story. Believe me, I know what you mean. Fortunately you never gave up. That is what I am trying to do with my son., He got hit with a baseball bat on the head and he also changed in his temperament and of course his erradic mood changes and tremendous stress. Besides what I described earlier of inability to concentrate., I know that the machines are only used to transfer data to the computer screen. that he is doing it with his own concentration.,. But they could never supress the low frequency and activate the beta waves. The doctor was very frustrated because we spend a lot of money and it still did not work. She consulted a neurologist and he suggested to apply the electrodes in the back of the head to see if that would prompt the frontal lobe brain map. Do you know how to interprete it? I would love to get as much information about this as possible. so far you are the only one that talks to me about this in this group. As far as you daughter's change in mood, the neurofeedback doctor told us that people who receive head injuries, they have these changes in mood becoming generally unpleasent, to say the least. Is your daughter seizure free? Can you tell me what she did? does she still have any lingering problems because of the seizures? Do you speak any other language besides german and english? I speak spanish. Any info is appreciated. Thanks, TVA12082208@... wrote: In einer eMail vom 29.12.06 06:59:51 (MEZ) Mitteleuropäische Zeit schreibt lindae321@...: > Hi Katharina: > My son does not have seizures. He has inability to pay attention for > extended periods of time. He was also tested and found to problem solve by > undetermined ways. In other ways, not like most people do, Then he had the brain > map and it showed the high production of the very slow waves and inability to > produce beta waves, in the frontal lobe, which are necessary for > concentration and problem solving. As I understand, there are several different types of > machines. Some are moved by your own concentration and that trains the brain > to activate certain brain waves. > The others actually put out small electrical current and stimulate certain > parts of the brain. This stimulates the production of waves and balance > throughout the brain. > In know that yogis can sculp their brain through different types of > meditation, but you must be able to train yourself to settle down and concentrate and > this is just what he has not figured out how to do (ADD). > > I am amazed by his effort considering there are millions of people out there > whose brains work correctly and they don't even make it through high school. > Of course, if you are one of those whose brain not only works properly, but > you are in the gifted range, you would have a hard time comprehending the > effort that > handicapped people make for what may come easy to you, > > My son is not part of this group because he does not have the faith and > patience that it takes to talk to people, time after time, until you finally find > someone who knows something that you don't already know and is kind enough > to spend the time to write back. He seems to prefer to read articles. > > I have found very valuable information through this group. I like to pass on > to others what I have learned. I always hope that someone can control their > seizure condition through natural means, like I have, > Thanks, > > > Hi , so nice of you to write about the specifics of the treatment. I will share what I know for you below. First I want to give you a bit of what we experienced over here. I am located in Europe and non-English. My story is rather lengthy. To cut it short: I am not the one with seizures, it is my daughter, after a bad falling accident (age 11) that left her with two scars in the brain. She was not diagnosed, and not treated, properly at hospital, later developped the seizures (CPS generalizing into GM), and put on phenhydan (in the US this is Dilantin) to control the seizures. When she was circulated through the out-patient treatment (neurologist's exam, lab for blood test, EEG), the doctor, meanwhile, got hold of me to talk to me, and to indoctrinate me about staying on the meds. At the beginning I had trust in the doctors, and we were the " super ideal model picture book compliant patient " , including the mother. Only that reality was a little bit different from what the doctor had told us. By and by, I realized a change happening in my daughter. She had been the sweetest most promising little girl and became a totally different person. I was seeking for causes. Should I blame it on puberty? or false friends? or maybe her own character flaws like laziness (which she had not had before!! and there were yet other major issues)? During the talks with the doctor I came up with my observations about her personality change and was plain brushed off. I was told: No, this was completely normal, and there was absolutely no cause for me to worry about. So, I thought it was a matter of child rearing: I kept adhorting and admonishing (how completely beside the point!) and expecting things and behavior from her part that she simply could not achieve under the circumstances (medication). Lack of adequate information is a frequent cause of sufferings. Imagine how utterly misunderstood she must have felt during that time, which did not any good to our relationship, as you may divine. Also so many activities that she had cherished were taken away from her (riding on horseback, swimming etc.), and many tears rolled down her cheeks over this. It was only 18 years later (yes: eighteen!) when I discovered by my own formal studies that it was the medication that had brought about the change. Over the years, I had become a professional in that field, and thus gained access to materials that were out of reach to the genereal public. There is vital info that is not printed on the insert slip of the meds. I will never forget that moment at the end of July 1999 when I stood at the computer in the library and read the expert's info about the meds my daughter had been given over the years: One of the side effects listed was " irreversible cerebellar atrophy " . I felt like the floor was gone from under my feet. Even in this infinite shock, it rang the bell in me, and in one instance I comprehended her personality and behavioral changes. From that day on I fervently researched for some other means to help my daughter. I did not even tell her what I had found out, for fear she would be shocked like myself, plus I did not know what to offer her as a feasible alternative. When I had spoken about my own problems in understanding my daughter's behavioral issues with collegues (!) at university, they would not listen to me, some would even walk out on me and not even say hello to me any more. Nobody wanted to hear anything about seizures. It is a taboo to the biggest part of our society, and prejudice and discrimination are wide-spread. The greatest help came from people from the US, from the different groups and lists I joined. I will forever stay grateful to these lovely people. I learned that socalled " lay(wo)men " can be experts, that other people had experienced fates similar to mine, and above all: that, in general, there is a natural way out from that meds-misery. I developped my own method to bring seizure activity to a halt, and after being successful with patients, approached a lady from the sick insurances, and asked her, why, when there are other and better methods to deal with seizures, would one give such detrimental medication to patients. She flatly answered me: It is hoped that the patients die soon. I was flabbergasted. Her attitude could only be explained by the history of my country. When I had settled with the knowledge about other means to control seizure activity, I sent my daughter a FAX, cautiously insinuating there was something about her meds, and that there was something better to administer. With that FAX in hand, she went to her doctor, and IMMEDIATELY her medication was changed! This is what I was going through over the years, before being lucky enough to find the US groups. Such groups do not exist here. The self-help groups over here are dominated by allopathy. The notorious financial shortcomings of self-help groups here makes it easy for pharm companies to take over. So they are no real help. Those deeply involved into allopathy have an enormous economic power, and they mis-use it to silence those who " play the maverick " . ~~~~~~~~~~~ , the methods you discribe are two completely different things: A) " there are several different types of machines. Some are moved by your own concentration and that trains the brain to activate certain brain waves. " ---It is not the machines that are moved, but the " movement " that takes place in the brain is made visible to the patient. This is called bio or neurofeedback, and is some sort of imaging. " The others actually put out small electrical current and stimulate certain parts of the brain. This stimulates the production of waves and balance throughout the brain. " ---Here, there is input into the brain through a device that actually influences the brain in the mode of its activity. It is really completely different from biofeedback, and does not require your son's own voluntary concentration on something, over a stretch of time. It is called frequency therapy. This could be of great help to your son. You write about " slow waves " . To say something adequate one needs to know the hard figures, not an interpretation of figures. Even " delta, theta, alpha, beta " are too inaccurate. You might want to ask your doctors about the real figures e.g. " wavelength 4 " or " 6 " . Four would be in the delta range, and I did see children even in the delta range of two, and wide awake, and so hyperactive, one would not believe it. Whatever these medical findings are: respect to your son, who must be a real problem solver in his realm, no matter what the " standards " say. He does his job, and if he is using other pathways, so what? I would not try to change him. Only if he had issues that would make him suffer, be it emotionally or physically: that would be an occasion to seek a better solution, for his sake. As for his perference to read articles, that is an excellent method to gain knowledge. Warm regards to you, and, please, also give my kind regards to your son. Katharina Mit freundlichen Gruessen Katharina Gutsche Sincerely, Katharina www.Auto-Thera.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Katharina Gutsche, M.A. Psycholinguistics, Dipl.-Psych.Clinical Psychology, State Licensured Naturopath (Psychotherapy) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2006 Report Share Posted December 30, 2006 http://www.drakeinstitute.com/treatment.html Katharina this looks interesting! C Fu <cyfcais@...> wrote: , Dr. Barry Sterman, who was at UCLA, is a pioneer in neurofeedback. I think he has already retired from UCLA but he may be consulting. CY <lindae321@...> wrote: Hi Katharine: Thank you for telling me your story. Believe me, I know what you mean. Fortunately you never gave up. That is what I am trying to do with my son., He got hit with a baseball bat on the head and he also changed in his temperament and of course his erradic mood changes and tremendous stress. Besides what I described earlier of inability to concentrate., I know that the machines are only used to transfer data to the computer screen. that he is doing it with his own concentration.,. But they could never supress the low frequency and activate the beta waves. The doctor was very frustrated because we spend a lot of money and it still did not work. She consulted a neurologist and he suggested to apply the electrodes in the back of the head to see if that would prompt the frontal lobe brain map. Do you know how to interprete it? I would love to get as much information about this as possible. so far you are the only one that talks to me about this in this group. As far as you daughter's change in mood, the neurofeedback doctor told us that people who receive head injuries, they have these changes in mood becoming generally unpleasent, to say the least. Is your daughter seizure free? Can you tell me what she did? does she still have any lingering problems because of the seizures? Do you speak any other language besides german and english? I speak spanish. Any info is appreciated. Thanks, TVA12082208@... wrote: In einer eMail vom 29.12.06 06:59:51 (MEZ) Mitteleuropäische Zeit schreibt lindae321@...: > Hi Katharina: > My son does not have seizures. He has inability to pay attention for > extended periods of time. He was also tested and found to problem solve by > undetermined ways. In other ways, not like most people do, Then he had the brain > map and it showed the high production of the very slow waves and inability to > produce beta waves, in the frontal lobe, which are necessary for > concentration and problem solving. As I understand, there are several different types of > machines. Some are moved by your own concentration and that trains the brain > to activate certain brain waves. > The others actually put out small electrical current and stimulate certain > parts of the brain. This stimulates the production of waves and balance > throughout the brain. > In know that yogis can sculp their brain through different types of > meditation, but you must be able to train yourself to settle down and concentrate and > this is just what he has not figured out how to do (ADD). > > I am amazed by his effort considering there are millions of people out there > whose brains work correctly and they don't even make it through high school. > Of course, if you are one of those whose brain not only works properly, but > you are in the gifted range, you would have a hard time comprehending the > effort that > handicapped people make for what may come easy to you, > > My son is not part of this group because he does not have the faith and > patience that it takes to talk to people, time after time, until you finally find > someone who knows something that you don't already know and is kind enough > to spend the time to write back. He seems to prefer to read articles. > > I have found very valuable information through this group. I like to pass on > to others what I have learned. I always hope that someone can control their > seizure condition through natural means, like I have, > Thanks, > > > Hi , so nice of you to write about the specifics of the treatment. I will share what I know for you below. First I want to give you a bit of what we experienced over here. I am located in Europe and non-English. My story is rather lengthy. To cut it short: I am not the one with seizures, it is my daughter, after a bad falling accident (age 11) that left her with two scars in the brain. She was not diagnosed, and not treated, properly at hospital, later developped the seizures (CPS generalizing into GM), and put on phenhydan (in the US this is Dilantin) to control the seizures. When she was circulated through the out-patient treatment (neurologist's exam, lab for blood test, EEG), the doctor, meanwhile, got hold of me to talk to me, and to indoctrinate me about staying on the meds. At the beginning I had trust in the doctors, and we were the " super ideal model picture book compliant patient " , including the mother. Only that reality was a little bit different from what the doctor had told us. By and by, I realized a change happening in my daughter. She had been the sweetest most promising little girl and became a totally different person. I was seeking for causes. Should I blame it on puberty? or false friends? or maybe her own character flaws like laziness (which she had not had before!! and there were yet other major issues)? During the talks with the doctor I came up with my observations about her personality change and was plain brushed off. I was told: No, this was completely normal, and there was absolutely no cause for me to worry about. So, I thought it was a matter of child rearing: I kept adhorting and admonishing (how completely beside the point!) and expecting things and behavior from her part that she simply could not achieve under the circumstances (medication). Lack of adequate information is a frequent cause of sufferings. Imagine how utterly misunderstood she must have felt during that time, which did not any good to our relationship, as you may divine. Also so many activities that she had cherished were taken away from her (riding on horseback, swimming etc.), and many tears rolled down her cheeks over this. It was only 18 years later (yes: eighteen!) when I discovered by my own formal studies that it was the medication that had brought about the change. Over the years, I had become a professional in that field, and thus gained access to materials that were out of reach to the genereal public. There is vital info that is not printed on the insert slip of the meds. I will never forget that moment at the end of July 1999 when I stood at the computer in the library and read the expert's info about the meds my daughter had been given over the years: One of the side effects listed was " irreversible cerebellar atrophy " . I felt like the floor was gone from under my feet. Even in this infinite shock, it rang the bell in me, and in one instance I comprehended her personality and behavioral changes. From that day on I fervently researched for some other means to help my daughter. I did not even tell her what I had found out, for fear she would be shocked like myself, plus I did not know what to offer her as a feasible alternative. When I had spoken about my own problems in understanding my daughter's behavioral issues with collegues (!) at university, they would not listen to me, some would even walk out on me and not even say hello to me any more. Nobody wanted to hear anything about seizures. It is a taboo to the biggest part of our society, and prejudice and discrimination are wide-spread. The greatest help came from people from the US, from the different groups and lists I joined. I will forever stay grateful to these lovely people. I learned that socalled " lay(wo)men " can be experts, that other people had experienced fates similar to mine, and above all: that, in general, there is a natural way out from that meds-misery. I developped my own method to bring seizure activity to a halt, and after being successful with patients, approached a lady from the sick insurances, and asked her, why, when there are other and better methods to deal with seizures, would one give such detrimental medication to patients. She flatly answered me: It is hoped that the patients die soon. I was flabbergasted. Her attitude could only be explained by the history of my country. When I had settled with the knowledge about other means to control seizure activity, I sent my daughter a FAX, cautiously insinuating there was something about her meds, and that there was something better to administer. With that FAX in hand, she went to her doctor, and IMMEDIATELY her medication was changed! This is what I was going through over the years, before being lucky enough to find the US groups. Such groups do not exist here. The self-help groups over here are dominated by allopathy. The notorious financial shortcomings of self-help groups here makes it easy for pharm companies to take over. So they are no real help. Those deeply involved into allopathy have an enormous economic power, and they mis-use it to silence those who " play the maverick " . ~~~~~~~~~~~ , the methods you discribe are two completely different things: A) " there are several different types of machines. Some are moved by your own concentration and that trains the brain to activate certain brain waves. " ---It is not the machines that are moved, but the " movement " that takes place in the brain is made visible to the patient. This is called bio or neurofeedback, and is some sort of imaging. " The others actually put out small electrical current and stimulate certain parts of the brain. This stimulates the production of waves and balance throughout the brain. " ---Here, there is input into the brain through a device that actually influences the brain in the mode of its activity. It is really completely different from biofeedback, and does not require your son's own voluntary concentration on something, over a stretch of time. It is called frequency therapy. This could be of great help to your son. You write about " slow waves " . To say something adequate one needs to know the hard figures, not an interpretation of figures. Even " delta, theta, alpha, beta " are too inaccurate. You might want to ask your doctors about the real figures e.g. " wavelength 4 " or " 6 " . Four would be in the delta range, and I did see children even in the delta range of two, and wide awake, and so hyperactive, one would not believe it. Whatever these medical findings are: respect to your son, who must be a real problem solver in his realm, no matter what the " standards " say. He does his job, and if he is using other pathways, so what? I would not try to change him. Only if he had issues that would make him suffer, be it emotionally or physically: that would be an occasion to seek a better solution, for his sake. As for his perference to read articles, that is an excellent method to gain knowledge. Warm regards to you, and, please, also give my kind regards to your son. Katharina Mit freundlichen Gruessen Katharina Gutsche Sincerely, Katharina www.Auto-Thera.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Katharina Gutsche, M.A. Psycholinguistics, Dipl.-Psych.Clinical Psychology, State Licensured Naturopath (Psychotherapy) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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