Saw palmetto

[Guest guest]

Gordo,

The label was in Chinese and I will try and find out what was in it. The OMD

who gave it to me has used this herb combo for a long time and I really trust

her. Again, I did not say it caused the problem, only that I am suspicious of

it. I put it out there to the community to see if others might have noticed

anything similar. Also, one other friend at work did say he thought that it

zapped his energy also.

I'll try and get the ingredients next week when I have a little time.

Take care,

Dale

[Guest guest]

Last year at a seminar I gave in Boca Raton, FL several bodybuilder types

approached me and asked if I had heard any reports of saw palmetto maiing

athletes weaker. At the time I had not. I am working on a project right

now where we are reviewing the literature on saw palmetto. I came across

the abstracts below. In addition I came across other abstracts indicating

strong evidence that saw palmetto and other herbal agents (including one

Chinese herbal preparation) bind to androgen receptors in prostatic tissue.

I would speculate that based on the anecdotal reports and teh evidnce

presented below that it is conceivable that certain herbs can inhibit the

binding of androgens such as testosterone to androgen receptors in skeletal

muscle. I should point out though that I haven't copied the articles yet,

nor studied the herbal preparations administered (ie were real world

physiological dosages used or were unbelievably high pharmacological dosages

used), not reviewed the studies critically. In light of Dale's posts I

thought it was timely (although admittedly premature since I haven't

reviewed the actual papers).

The first abstract is the one that troubled me the most. In an in vitro

study (cell cultures outside the body) cells treated with a therapeutic

concentration of Permixon (a brand of saw palmetto), " Cells which had been

treated with the drug demonstrated extensive accumulation of lipids in the

cytoplasm and widespread damage of intracellular membranes, including

mitochondrial and nuclear membranes. " The researchers did not see a problem

with this. I am not sure yet how to interpret this myself. In general,

damage to cell membranes can only create more problems down the road.

I should have the actual articles in a weak or so and offer more comments at

the time.

Tom

Incledon, MS, RD, LD, LN, CSCS, NSCA-CPT

Director of Sports Nutrition

Human Performance Specialists, Inc.

619 NW 90th Terrace

Plantation, FL 33324

954-577-0689

hpsinc@...

Authors

Bayne CW. Donnelly F. Ross M. Habib FK.

Institution

Prostate Research Group, University Department of Oncology, Western General

Hospital, Edinburgh, Scotland.

Title

Serenoa repens (Permixon): a

5alpha-reductase types I and II inhibitor-new evidence in a coculture model

of BPH.

Source

Prostate. 40(4):232-41, 1999 Sep 1.

Local Messages

Title Available at Calder Library, Check Catalog

Abstract

BACKGROUND: The aim of this study was to determine the effect of the

phytotherapeutic agent, Permixon, on a novel coculture model of benign

prostatic hyperplasia (BPH) in an effort to better understand the mode of

action of the drug in vivo. METHODS: The effect of Permixon, at the

calculated therapeutic concentration, on the activity of 5alpha-reductase

isoenzymes was evaluated utilizing a pH-specific assay. Prostate-specific

antigen (PSA) secretions into the medium were measured in the presence and

absence of Permixon and quantified by an ELISA assay. The morphological

patterns before and following Permixon treatment were also examined by

electron microscopy. All results were compared to controls. RESULTS:

Permixon at a concentration of 10 micrograms/ml (calculated plasma

concentration in patient receiving recommended therapeutic dosage) was shown

to be an effective inhibitor of both 5alpha-reductase types I and II

isoenzymes without influencing the secretion of PSA by the epithelial cells,

even after stimulation with testosterone. The morphology of Permixon-treated

cells was found to be markedly different from that of untreated controls.

Cells which had been treated with the drug demonstrated extensive

accumulation of lipids in the cytoplasm and widespread damage of

intracellular membranes, including mitochondrial and nuclear membranes.

CONCLUSIONS: Permixon is an effective dual inhibitor of 5alpha-reductase

isoenzyme activities in the prostate. Unlike other 5alpha-reductase

inhibitors, Permixon induces this effect without interfering with the cells'

capacity to secrete PSA, thus permitting the continued use of PSA

measurements for prostate cancer screening. Copyright 1999 Wiley-Liss, Inc.

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Citation 2

Unique Identifier

99179128

Authors

Ondrizek RR. Chan PJ. Patton WC. King A.

Institution

Department of Gynecology and Obstetrics, Loma University School of

Medicine, California 92350, USA.

Title

Inhibition of human sperm motility by specific herbs used in alternative

medicine.

Source

Journal of Assisted Reproduction & Genetics. 16(2):87-91, 1999 Feb.

Local Messages

Title Available at Calder Library, Check Catalog

Abstract

PURPOSE: Our purpose was to analyze sperm motility parameters in the

presence of herbs. METHODS: Washed sperm were incubated in either

saw-palmetto (Serenoa repens, Permixon Sabal serrulatum), echinacea purpura,

ginkgo biloba, St. 's wort (Hypericum perforatum), or control medium.

Parameters were measured on a Hamilton-Thorn analyzer after 1, 4, 24, and 48

hr at 37 degrees C. RESULTS: Sperm motility was inhibited at the high

concentration (0.6 mg/mL) of St. 's wort. Curvilinear velocities and

beat cross frequencies also decreased, but not hyperactivation.

High-concentration saw-palmetto, echinacea, or gikgo inhibited motility at

24 and 48 hr. CONCLUSIONS: A potent inhibition of sperm motility was seen in

St. 's wort unrelated to changes in pH. Furthermore, sperm viability was

compromised in St. 's wort, suggesting a spermicidal effect. Metabolic

changes were observed in saw-palmetto-treated sperm. High-concentration

echinacea purpura interfered with sperm enzymes. Ginkgo did not have an

antioxidant effect on sperm motility.

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Citation 3

Unique Identifier

99163674

Authors

Ondrizek RR. Chan PJ. Patton WC. King A.

Institution

Department of Gynecology and Obstetrics, Loma University School of

Medicine, California 92350, USA.

Title

An alternative medicine study of herbal effects on the penetration of

zona-free hamster oocytes and the integrity of sperm deoxyribonucleic acid.

Source

Fertility & Sterility. 71(3):517-22, 1999 Mar.

Local Messages

Title Available at Calder Library, Check Catalog

Abstract

OBJECTIVE: To analyze the effects of certain herbs on sperm DNA and on the

fertilization process. DESIGN: Prospective comparative study. SETTING:

Clinical and academic research environment. PATIENT(S): Donor sperm

specimens. INTERVENTION(S): Zona-free hamster oocytes were incubated for 1

hour in saw palmetto (Serenoa repens), echinacea purpura, ginkgo biloba, St.

's wort (Hypericum perforatum), or control medium before sperm-oocyte

interaction. The DNA of herb-treated sperm was analyzed with denaturing

gradient gel electrophoresis. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE(S): Oocyte penetration

and integrity of the sperm BRCAI exon 11 gene. RESULT(S): Pretreatment of

oocytes with 0.6 mg/mL of St. 's wort resulted in zero penetration. A

lower concentration (0.06 mg/mL) had no effect. High concentrations of

echinacea and ginkgo also resulted in reduced oocyte penetration. Exposure

of sperm to echinacea purpura and St. 's wort resulted in DNA

denaturation. In contrast, saw palmetto and ginkgo had no effect. Sperm

exposed to 0.6 mg/mL of St. 's wort showed mutation of the BRCA1 exon 11

gene. CONCLUSION(S): High concentrations of St. 's wort, echinacea, and

ginkgo had adverse effects on oocytes. Saw palmetto had no effect. The data

suggested that St. 's wort, ginkgo, and echinacea at high concentrations

damage reproductive cells. St. 's wort was mutagenic to sperm cells.

Citation 1

Unique Identifier

98430501

Authors

Di Silverio F. Monti S. Sciarra A. Varasano PA. i C. Lanzara S.

D'Eramo G. Di Nicola S. Toscano V.

Institution

Department of Urology, University of Rome La Sapienza, Italy.

Title

Effects of long-term treatment with Serenoa repens (Permixon) on the

concentrations and regional distribution of androgens and

epidermal growth factor in benign prostatic hyperplasia.

Source

Prostate. 37(2):77-83, 1998 Oct 1.

Local Messages

Title Available at Calder Library, Check Catalog

Abstract

BACKGROUND: The n-hexane lipido-sterol extract of Serenoa repens (LSESr,

Permixon, Pierre Fabre Medicament, Castres, France), a phytotherapeutic

agent used in the treatment of benign prostatic hyperplasia (BPH), has a

multisite mechanism of action including inhibition of types 1 and 2

5alpha-reductase and competitive binding to androgen receptors in prostatic

cells. Here, the response of testosterone (T), dihydrotestosterone (DHT),

and epidermal growth factor (EGF) in BPH tissue of patients treated with

LSESr (320 mg/day for 3 months) is analyzed. METHODS: BPH samples were

sectioned in periurethral, subcapsular, and intermediate regions: in each

region T, DHT, and EGF were determined by radioimmunoassay after

purification on celite columns or Sep-pak C18 cartridges. RESULTS: In the

untreated group, T, DHT, and EGF presented the highest concentrations in the

periurethral region (615 +/- 62 (SE) pg/g tissue, 7,317 +/- 551 pg/g tissue,

and 20.9 +/- 3.3 ng/g tissue, respectively) with respect to the peripheral

subcapsular region (425 +/- 45 pg/g tissue, 4,215 +/- 561 pg/g tissue, and

10.8 +/- 1.4 ng/g tissue, respectively). In the LSESr-treated group, a

statistically significant reduction was observed, mainly in the periurethral

region of DHT (2,363 +/- 553 pg/g tissue, P < 0.001) and EGF (6.98 +/- 2.48

ng/g tissue, P < 0.01), with increased T values (1,023 +/- 101 pg/g tissue,

P < 0.001). CONCLUSIONS: The decrease of DHT and the rise of T in BPH tissue

of patients treated with Permixon confirms the capacity of this drug to

inhibit in vivo 5alpha-reductase in human pathological prostate. A marked

decrease of EGF, associated with DHT reduction, was also observed. These

biochemical effects, similar to those obtained with finasteride, are

particularly evident in the periurethral region, whose enlargement is

responsible for urinary obstruction, with respect to the subcapsular region.

A possible speculation is that the preferential reduction of DHT and EGF

content in the periurethral region is involved in the clinical improvement

of the obstructive symptoms in BPH during LSESr therapy.

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Citation 2

Unique Identifier

98369653

Authors

Rosenberg RS. Grass L. DJ. Kendall CW. Diamandis EP.

Institution

Department of Nutritional Sciences, University of Toronto, Ontario, Canada.

Title

Modulation of androgen and progesterone

receptors by phytochemicals in breast cancer cell lines.

Source

Biochemical & Biophysical Research Communications. 248(3):935-9, 1998 Jul

30.

Local Messages

Title Available at Calder Library, Check Catalog

Abstract

We have used a tissue culture system based on breast carcinoma cell lines to

investigate a large number of naturally occurring compounds and beverages

for steroid hormone agonist and antagonist activity. The cell lines used,

T-47D and BT-474, produce prostate specific antigen (PSA) upon stimulation

with androgens, progestins, glucocorticoids and mineralocorticoids. This

biomarker is secreted and can be measured in the tissue culture supernatant

with very high sensitivity by an immunofluorometric procedure. Steroid

hormone antagonist activity can be assessed with the same system by adding

the candidate antagonist first and then stimulating the cells with a known

agonist. By using this system we have identified three natural compounds,

apigenin, naringenin and syringic acid which exhibited weak progestational

activity and eleven other compounds which exhibited weak

antiandrogenic/antiprogestational activity. Our study indicates that a

significant number of natural compounds have the ability to bind to steroid

hormone receptors and act as weak blockers. A fewer number of compounds not

only bind to the receptors but they also mediate transcriptional activity,

acting as agonists. The agonists and antagonists were active at levels

around 10(-5) M, in accordance with previous reports for other

phytochemicals. In comparison to synthetic and natural steroid hormones, the

biological activity of these compounds is weaker by a factor of

approximately 10(4)-fold.

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Citation 3

Unique Identifier

98085276

Authors

Pathak V. Shirota O. Sekita S. Hirayama Y. Hakamata Y. Hayashi T. Yanagawa

T. Satake M.

Institution

Division of Pharmacognosy and Phytochemistry, National Institute of Health

Sciences, Tokyo, Japan.

Title

Antiandrogenic phenolic constituents from Dalbergia

cochinchinensis.

Source

Phytochemistry. 46(7):1219-23, 1997 Dec.

Local Messages

Title Available at Richter Library

Abstract

Four new compounds, 9-hydroxy-6,7-dimethoxydalbergiquinol,

6-hydroxy-2,7-dimethoxyneoflavene, 6,4'-dihydroxy-7-methoxyflavan and

2,2',5-trihydroxy-4-methoxybenzophenone, in addition to eight known phenolic

compounds including 7-hydroxy-6-methoxyflavone, have been isolated from the

stems of Dalbergia cochinchinensis. Their structures were established by

spectroscopic techniques including one- and two-dimensional NMR methods. The

first two compounds showed potent inhibitory activity towards 5

alpha-dihydrotestosterone (DHT) which binds with an androgen receptor to

form a DHT-receptor complex that causes androgen-dependent disease.

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Citation 4

Unique Identifier

97390876

Authors

Hsieh T. Chen SS. Wang X. Wu JM.

Institution

Department of Biochemistry & Molecular Biology, New York Medical College,

Valhalla 10595, USA.

Title

Regulation of androgen receptor (AR) and prostate specific

antigen (PSA) expression in the androgen-responsive human

prostate LNCaP cells by ethanolic extracts of the Chinese

herbal preparation, PC-SPES.

Source

Biochemistry & Molecular Biology International. 42(3):535-44, 1997 Jul.

Local Messages

Title Available at Calder Library, Check Catalog

Abstract

As part of the study on the potential use of natural product-based

combination therapy for treating prostate cancer, we have investigated the

effects of a " HPLC standardized " herbal preparation, PC-SPES, on the

prostate LNCaP cell line. Proliferation of the LNCaP cells was inhibited by

a 4-6 day incubation with ethanolic extracts of PC-SPES. Decrease of cell

growth was accompanied by a 60-70% down-regulation of the proliferating cell

nuclear antigen (PCNA) and level of secreted PSA. A smaller and more

variable decrease (20-40%) in the level of intracellular PSA was also

observed. The PC-SPES-modulated PSA changes occurred concurrently with the

decrease of AR expression, based on Western blot analysis and binding to the

radioactive ligand [3H]R1881. A 60% decrease in R1881 binding occurred after

a 24 h incubation with PC-SPES. These results suggest that PC-SPES

negatively affects cell growth in part through its ability to modulate

changes in PCNA, and may decrease PSA levels indirectly by suppressing AR

expression.

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Citation 5

Unique Identifier

97259977

Authors

Kelce WR. EM.

Institution

Reproductive Toxicology Division, United States Environmental Protection

Agency, Research Triangle Park, North Carolina 27711, USA.

Title

Environmental antiandrogens: developmental effects,

molecular mechanisms, and clinical implications. [Review] [110 refs]

Source

Journal of Molecular Medicine. 75(3):198-207, 1997 Mar.

Local Messages

Title Available at Calder Library, Check Catalog

Abstract

Industrial chemicals and environmental pollutants can disrupt reproductive

development in wildlife and humans by mimicking or inhibiting the action of

the gonadal steroid hormones, estradiol and testosterone. The toxicity of

these so-called environmental endocrine disruptors is especially insidious

during sex differentiation and development due to the crucial role of

gonadal steroid hormones in regulating these processes. This review

describes the mechanism of toxicity and clinical implications of a new class

of environmental chemicals that inhibit androgen-mediated sex development.

For several of these chemicals, including the agricultural fungicide

vinclozolin and the ubiquitous and persistent 1,1,1-trichloro-2,2-bis

(p-chlorophenyl)ethane metabolite, 1,1-dichloro-2,2-bis(p-chlorophenyl)

ethylene, the molecular mechanism of action and the adverse developmental

effects on male sex differentiation have been elucidated and are used as

examples. Environmental chemicals with antiandrogenic activity offer

profound implications with regard to recent clinical observations that

suggest an increasing incidence of human male genital tract malformations,

male infertility, and female breast cancer. Finally, in light of increasing

concern over the potential endocrine disrupting effects of environmental

pollutants, an in vitro/in vivo investigational strategy is presented which

has proved useful in identifying chemicals with antiandrogen activity and

their mechanism of action. [References: 110]

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[Guest guest]

> In addition I came across other abstracts indicating

> strong evidence that saw palmetto and other herbal agents (including

> one Chinese herbal preparation) bind to androgen receptors in

> prostatic tissue.

This is interesting Tom. I've heard this also, read it in a column

somewhere, that saw palmetto may be a " two-edged sword " for body builders,

blocking both estrogen receptors and androgen receptors.

However Dale's case has much deeper implications. It would appear that his

testosterone production shut down almost completely and perhaps also

permanently. It's hard to see how saw palmetto could have such a

catastrophic side-effect.

Dale, something I've been meaning to ask you...

When, if ever, was the last time you had a blood test in which your T levels

were normal? Do you have recorded history of normal T levels until recently?

If not then I have a theory that you may always have been borderline

hypogonadal and that increased age finally pushed your T production to

levels low enough that you started experiencing symptoms.

-gts

[Guest guest]

Tom,

> " Cells which had been

> treated with the drug demonstrated extensive accumulation of lipids

> in the cytoplasm and widespread damage of intracellular membranes,

> including mitochondrial and nuclear membranes. " The researchers

> did not see a problem with this. I am not sure yet how to interpret this

> myself.

When saw palmetto works for its intended purpose it reduces the size of the

prostate. This would seem to imply a reduction in the number of prostate

cells, and if so then perhaps this observation above is just evidence of

that process taking place.

-gts

[Guest guest]

Gordon,

Good theory and the only T level I could find was from 1998 when I had my free T

level checked. That was 15.0, not great, but not to bad for a 46 year old.

Also I did not have anything near the symptoms I have now.

My history is:

Free T 15 in 1998

PSA 0.5

IGF-1 186.7 3/23/30

Total T less than 20 12/22/99 about two months after using Saw

Free T 12.2

PSA 1.6 (this really got my attention)

This blood work was done at American Metabolic Lab (LEF) and I strongly suspect

that this blood sat for about a week, until after the holidays. I have heard

several MDs say they don't think it is a good lab. I don't know if they are

attacking the foundation or the actual lab work. I have actually been in their

lab and wasn't really impressed. Stopped the SP

Total T 117 2/18/00 from different lab, (blood taken about 3P.M.)

Estradiols 13

Progesterone 0.4

3/03/00 from Urologist Exam

PSA 1.07

TSH 3.28

FSH 4.4

LH 1.7

Prolactin 4.7

Total T 303

Free T 9.30

In my opinion the results from the last test suck. I was feeling very very

fatigued and being a pilot I was about to take some time of because of the

fatigue--something we take very seriously. Also I had been having trouble with

the upper abdominal muscles being very sore from some sort of injury at the gym

and they just would not heal, even after about two months without working out.

The uro would not give me any T after the blood work came back. He wants to

wait six months and look at me again. I was feeling so poorly that I found

another doctor who was willing to give me T and what a difference it has made.

The abdominals are much better and I have much more energy.

That's the short version. The SP I was using was Prolongevity Super Saw

Palmetto/Nettle Root Formula from LEF. It contains:

Saw Palmetto CO2 extract 160 mg

Free fatty acids and sterols

from SP extract 130 mg

Stinging nettle extract 120 mg

Rosemary Extract 400 mg.

I usually took one a day, but a couple days a week I took two.

Thanks for all the help

Dale

I've got a call into the OMD

gordon wrote:

> > In addition I came across other abstracts indicating

> > strong evidence that saw palmetto and other herbal agents (including

> > one Chinese herbal preparation) bind to androgen receptors in

> > prostatic tissue.

>

> This is interesting Tom. I've heard this also, read it in a column

> somewhere, that saw palmetto may be a " two-edged sword " for body builders,

> blocking both estrogen receptors and androgen receptors.

>

> However Dale's case has much deeper implications. It would appear that his

> testosterone production shut down almost completely and perhaps also

> permanently. It's hard to see how saw palmetto could have such a

> catastrophic side-effect.

>

> Dale, something I've been meaning to ask you...

>

> When, if ever, was the last time you had a blood test in which your T levels

> were normal? Do you have recorded history of normal T levels until recently?

> If not then I have a theory that you may always have been borderline

> hypogonadal and that increased age finally pushed your T production to

> levels low enough that you started experiencing symptoms.

>

> -gts

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Avoid the lines and visit avis.com for quick and easy online

> reservations. Enjoy a compact car nationwide for only $29 a day!

> Click here for more details.

> 1/3011/7/_/164625/_/957191949/

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

Are you cycling the test???

Re: saw palmetto

Gordon,

Good theory and the only T level I could find was from 1998 when I had my

free T

level checked. That was 15.0, not great, but not to bad for a 46 year old.

Also I did not have anything near the symptoms I have now.

My history is:

Free T 15 in 1998

PSA 0.5

IGF-1 186.7 3/23/30

Total T less than 20 12/22/99 about two months after using Saw

Free T 12.2

PSA 1.6 (this really got my attention)

This blood work was done at American Metabolic Lab (LEF) and I strongly

suspect

that this blood sat for about a week, until after the holidays. I have

heard

several MDs say they don't think it is a good lab. I don't know if they are

attacking the foundation or the actual lab work. I have actually been in

their

lab and wasn't really impressed. Stopped the SP

Total T 117 2/18/00 from different lab, (blood taken about 3P.M.)

Estradiols 13

Progesterone 0.4

3/03/00 from Urologist Exam

PSA 1.07

TSH 3.28

FSH 4.4

LH 1.7

Prolactin 4.7

Total T 303

Free T 9.30

In my opinion the results from the last test suck. I was feeling very very

fatigued and being a pilot I was about to take some time of because of the

fatigue--something we take very seriously. Also I had been having trouble

with

the upper abdominal muscles being very sore from some sort of injury at the

gym

and they just would not heal, even after about two months without working

out.

The uro would not give me any T after the blood work came back. He wants to

wait six months and look at me again. I was feeling so poorly that I found

another doctor who was willing to give me T and what a difference it has

made.

The abdominals are much better and I have much more energy.

That's the short version. The SP I was using was Prolongevity Super Saw

Palmetto/Nettle Root Formula from LEF. It contains:

Saw Palmetto CO2 extract 160 mg

Free fatty acids and sterols

from SP extract 130 mg

Stinging nettle extract 120 mg

Rosemary Extract 400 mg.

I usually took one a day, but a couple days a week I took two.

Thanks for all the help

Dale

I've got a call into the OMD

gordon wrote:

> > In addition I came across other abstracts indicating

> > strong evidence that saw palmetto and other herbal agents (including

> > one Chinese herbal preparation) bind to androgen receptors in

> > prostatic tissue.

>

> This is interesting Tom. I've heard this also, read it in a column

> somewhere, that saw palmetto may be a " two-edged sword " for body builders,

> blocking both estrogen receptors and androgen receptors.

>

> However Dale's case has much deeper implications. It would appear that his

> testosterone production shut down almost completely and perhaps also

> permanently. It's hard to see how saw palmetto could have such a

> catastrophic side-effect.

>

> Dale, something I've been meaning to ask you...

>

> When, if ever, was the last time you had a blood test in which your T

levels

> were normal? Do you have recorded history of normal T levels until

recently?

> If not then I have a theory that you may always have been borderline

> hypogonadal and that increased age finally pushed your T production to

> levels low enough that you started experiencing symptoms.

>

> -gts

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Avoid the lines and visit avis.com for quick and easy online

> reservations. Enjoy a compact car nationwide for only $29 a day!

> Click here for more details.

> 1/3011/7/_/164625/_/957191949/

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

I am wondering if any of the men on this list have used beta sitosterol for the

same purpose. It is supposed to do wonders and is supposedly the active

ingredient in Saw Palmetto that works. I got some for a friend and it hasn't

worked that great for him, but I have heard that others have had great success.

Anyone here ever use it?

He also used SP with no benefit.

Donna

Saw Palmetto

Hi, List. I read on some other post the idea that Saw Palmetto was not good

for prostate troubles -- several Doctors had conducted a test over time and

had concluded that it didn't work -- but I have to say to you that SP is the

only relief I've had to the urgency, flow and " holding it " problems I've

experienced over the past year and a half. In fact, if I run out or don't take

it morning and night, the symptoms return. I don't want to see any of us just

up and discontinue SP over that post. Obie.

[Guest guest]

Good morning all

You guys should try " Juniper " by Natures Way

When my son 45yrs old has urgency and pressure he takes Juniper and has

relief

overnight----However this is not an herb you take daily as it is a

direutic also----When my kidneys feel sluggsh I also take and I think it

is a great product---My son usually takes until the bottle is gone then

no longer takes ---works great for us ------

What do you think Saul?

Sylvia

[Guest guest]

I have had troubles with Prostratitus which is a

disease that is aggravated by sitdown type jobs. I

have had excellent results in curing this problem by

upping my intake of Zinc to 50mg per day.

I read that zinc concentrations are the highest in the

Prostate gland because zinc is a natural antibacterial

agent. White blood cells are not found very much in

the prostate gland because of how it is constructed

and penicillen type drugs fail because of the low

blood flow to this gland.

Tom Nesler

--- OBIE <obie2@...> wrote:

> Hi, List. I read on some other post the idea that

> Saw Palmetto was not good for prostate troubles --

> several Doctors had conducted a test over time and

> had concluded that it didn't work -- but I have to

> say to you that SP is the only relief I've had to

> the urgency, flow and " holding it " problems I've

> experienced over the past year and a half. In fact,

> if I run out or don't take it morning and night, the

> symptoms return. I don't want to see any of us just

> up and discontinue SP over that post. Obie.

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Back to Natural Perfumery

Hi Everyone:

I think there is a place for all the discussions on herbalism, taxonomic

classification, botanical matters far and wide, but they're overwhelming

the soul of this group, which is, of course, Natural Perfumery. I'm a main

culprit in the offroad travel, and I apologize. We all just got carried

away, I realize, and I really would like to keep the group more on-topic.

If anyone would like to continue these conversations, contact me privately,

and perhaps we'll set up a Natural Perfumery Healing Garden group,or

something along those lines.

Back to perfumery, oh scented ones, and if anyone can help me with

directions how to ferment/extract my huge harvest of patchouli leaves,

please post!

Anya

http://member.newsguy.com/~herblady

Hello All,

I've recently received a beautiful sample of Saw Palmetto oil from India.

It is a beautiful, robust, fruity fragrance with a hint of muskiness - very

'expansive'. I have never seen this lovely oil before . . . anyone familiar

with it? I don't see it at all in Tony Burfield's book, nor in Sylla's

manual. I'm intrigued . . .

Be well,

Marcia Elston http://www.wingedseed.com

" First of all, cultivate a contented spirit. A garden is a good place to

begin. "

Natural Perfumery & Aromatic Exotics Weekend

http://www.wingedseed.com/events/JeanneRosePerfumery 2004.htm

[Guest guest]

At 07:24 PM 6/16/2004 -0700, you wrote:

>Hello All,

>

>I've recently received a beautiful sample of Saw Palmetto oil from India.

>It is a beautiful, robust, fruity fragrance with a hint of muskiness - very

>'expansive'. I have never seen this lovely oil before . . . anyone familiar

>with it? I don't see it at all in Tony Burfield's book, nor in Sylla's

>manual. I'm intrigued . . .

Hi Marcia

It wounds like the oil is made from the berries, given the 'fruity'

fragrance - what do you think? The SP is native to Florida, I didn't even

know it grew in India. If there is a place for it in perfumery (and I'm

sure there is) it could be produced right here in Florida, since we have

many, many acres of it under cultivation (for prostate

supplements/medicine) and in the wild.

I'll be at the botanic garden over the weekend, I'll see if it's in fruit

then, and sample some.

Anya

http://member.newsguy.com/~herblady

Do you remember how electrical currents and 'unseen waves' were laughed at?

The knowledge about man is still in its infancy.

-- Albert Einstein

[Guest guest]

lol nikki i have the same problem. but to much saw palmetto does bother my liver.Nikki Cowan <nikkicowan@...> wrote: This might be a real find for my husband who is experiencing symptoms of enlarged prostrate but does not want to go on meds for it due to the liver impact. His blood work was clear for prostrate cancer so we might go this

avenue and see if it will help him. Regards, Nikki Safety

Issues Saw palmetto is thought to be essentially nontoxic.24 In addition, in clinical trials it has shown little to no adverse effects. For example, in a 3-year study only 34 of the 435 participants complained of side effects, and these were primarily only of the usual non-specific variety seen with all medications, such as mild gastrointestinal distress. 25 Tim Parsons knoxville,tn 37931 865-588-2465 x107 work www.knoxville1.com

8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time with the Search movie showtime shortcut.

[Guest guest]

i took str8 saw mornings and nights not sure mg.Nikki Cowan <nikkicowan@...> wrote: In what way? What is too much? Do you take the prostate combo or plain saw p.? Does it help ya get through the night without multi potty trips? How about the flow? Enquiring minds want to know, lol! Nikki lol nikki

i have the same problem. but to much saw palmetto does bother my liver. Tim Parsons knoxville,tn 37931 865-588-2465 x107 work

www.knoxville1.com

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all nights not bad most of the time its not bad.i guess its early Nikki Cowan <nikkicowan@...> wrote: In what way? What is too much? Do you take the prostate combo or plain saw p.? Does it help ya get through the night without multi potty trips? How about the flow? Enquiring minds want to know, lol! Nikki lol nikki i have the same problem. but to much saw palmetto does bother my liver. Tim Parsons knoxville,tn 37931 865-588-2465 x107 work

www.knoxville1.com

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[Guest guest]

My husband is having problems with enlarged prostate and we spoke with our pharmacist and he recommended "Nature's Bounty" Saw Palmetto 1000 mg softgels,, and my husband started taking 1 in the am and 1 in the pm and he has noticed a huge difference in having to get up several times a nite to urinate, now its either once or not at all and he said his stream is more 'solid' and doesnt start and stop as much. Now that he has gotten some relief, he has cut back to one per day as the direction says. He does not have hep c but recently diagnosed with borderline diabetes and does have 'fatty liver'... so,, thats my story and Im sickin to it,, lolHillbilly Tim <knoxweb1@...> wrote: lol nikki i have the same problem. but to much saw palmetto does bother my liver.Nikki Cowan <nikkicowansbcglobal (DOT) net> wrote: This might be a real find for my husband who is experiencing symptoms of enlarged prostrate but does not want to go on meds for it due to the liver impact. His blood work was clear for prostrate cancer so we might go this avenue and see if it will help him. Regards, Nikki Safety Issues Saw palmetto

is thought to be essentially nontoxic.24 In addition, in clinical trials it has shown little to no adverse effects. For example, in a 3-year study only 34 of the 435 participants complained of side effects, and these were primarily only of the usual non-specific variety seen with all medications, such as mild gastrointestinal distress. 25 Tim Parsons knoxville,tn 37931 865-588-2465 x107 work www.knoxville1.com 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no timewith the Search movie showtime shortcut. Jackie

[Guest guest]

We are going to give it a go, also. Thanks!

Nikki

My

husband is having problems with enlarged prostate and we spoke with our

pharmacist and he recommended " Nature's Bounty " Saw Palmetto

1000 mg softgels,, and my husband started taking 1 in the am and 1 in the pm

and he has noticed a huge difference in having to get up several times a nite

to urinate, now its either once or not at all and he said his stream is more

'solid' and doesnt start and stop as much.

Now that he has gotten some relief, he has cut back to one per day as the

direction says. He does not

have hep c but recently diagnosed with borderline diabetes and does have 'fatty

liver'... so,, thats my story and Im sickin to it,, lol

[Guest guest]

Great,, let us know if it helps,, it sure did for my hubby.. Nikki Cowan <nikkicowan@...> wrote: We are going to give it a go, also. Thanks! Nikki My husband is having problems with enlarged prostate and we spoke with our pharmacist and he recommended "Nature's Bounty" Saw Palmetto 1000 mg softgels,, and my husband started taking 1 in the am and 1 in the pm and he has noticed a huge difference in having to get up several times a nite to urinate, now its either once or not at all and he said his stream is more 'solid' and doesnt start and stop as much. Now that he has gotten some relief, he has cut back to one per day as the direction says. He does not have hep c but recently diagnosed with

borderline diabetes and does have 'fatty liver'... so,, thats my story and Im sickin to it,, lol Jackie

[Guest guest]

>

> Bee, is it okay to take saw palmetto?

+++Hi Tom,

Yes, you can take it. I suggest you take Saw Palmetto Extract, and take 160 mg

twice daily with 1 cup of water along with meals.

Bee

[Guest guest]

Bee, I started taking saw palmetto about a week ago. I've been taking 160 mg in

the morning and 160 mg in the evening. But, now I've been getting headaches and

experiencing pain in my right testicle. Should I quit taking it or do you think

I should just take 160 mg? And if I do cut it down to 160 mg, would it even have

an effect? Thanks again.

Tom

[Guest guest]

>

> Bee, I started taking saw palmetto about a week ago. I've been taking 160 mg

in the morning and 160 mg in the evening. But, now I've been getting headaches

and experiencing pain in my right testicle. Should I quit taking it or do you

think I should just take 160 mg? And if I do cut it down to 160 mg, would it

even have an effect? Thanks again.

+++Hi Tom,

Your headache and the pain in your testicles are healing/detoxifying reactions.

If you cannot tolerate those reactions you could cut back to one dose of saw

palmetto per day for a week to see if it helps lessen them.

If cutting back doesn't lessen the reactions then they are because of other

reasons, not saw palmetto.

Other reasons could be " retracing " and/or simply normal healing detoxifying

reactions that occur on this program.

Bee

[Guest guest]

Bee, I've read that headaches and testicle pain are side effects from the saw

palmetto. Is it safe? Are these side effects definitely from healing? Also, if I

was to just take 160 mg, would it even have an effect? Thanks again.

> >

> > Bee, I started taking saw palmetto about a week ago. I've been taking 160 mg

in the morning and 160 mg in the evening. But, now I've been getting headaches

and experiencing pain in my right testicle. Should I quit taking it or do you

think I should just take 160 mg? And if I do cut it down to 160 mg, would it

even have an effect? Thanks again.

>

> +++Hi Tom,

>

> Your headache and the pain in your testicles are healing/detoxifying

reactions.

>

> If you cannot tolerate those reactions you could cut back to one dose of saw

palmetto per day for a week to see if it helps lessen them.

>

> If cutting back doesn't lessen the reactions then they are because of other

reasons, not saw palmetto.

>

> Other reasons could be " retracing " and/or simply normal healing detoxifying

reactions that occur on this program.

>

> Bee

>

[Guest guest]

>

> Bee, I've read that headaches and testicle pain are side effects from the saw

palmetto. Is it safe? Are these side effects definitely from healing? Also, if I

was to just take 160 mg, would it even have an effect? Thanks again.

+++Hi Tom,

Those symptoms (or side effects) are always healing/detoxifying symptoms. You

can experiment to find out if you get those same reactions by taking less saw

palmetto. Allow at least 3 days at the lower amount to see if there are any

change in your reactions.

In fact all dis-ease processes are exactly the same as healing/ detoxifying

processes, with the only difference being that a person on this healthy program

is progressing towards health rather than becoming more and more unhealthy, or

dis-eased.

The medical field labels each and every " sign " of poor health as separate

dis-eases, illnesses, symptoms, etc. instead of calling them what they actually

are, i.e. " signs " the body is working hard at maintaining its health in spite of

poor nutrition, toxins, etc., which means it is trying to heal and detoxify

itself.

You'd feel more secure about such symptoms if you read this article about

Retracing - scroll down to the section " Healing Reactions Versus Disease

Reactions:

http://www.healingnaturallybybee.com/articles/heal10.php

All the best, Bee

[Guest guest]

> >

> > Bee, is it okay to take saw palmetto?

>

> +++Hi Tom,

>

> Yes, you can take it. I suggest you take Saw Palmetto Extract, and take 160

mg twice daily with 1 cup of water along with meals.

>

> Bee

>

Hi Bee, is organic berry powder okay too?

Adri.

[Guest guest]

>

>

>

> Hi Bee, is organic berry powder okay too?

>

+++Hi Adri,

Berry powder is fruit/sugar, so it is not okay. What are you wanting to treat

with it?

Bee

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the information Bee, I will take the extract then.

I have prostate problems and extremely oily skin, according to what I have read

it's a good treatment for both.

Adri.

> >

> >

> >

> > Hi Bee, is organic berry powder okay too?

> >

> +++Hi Adri,

>

> Berry powder is fruit/sugar, so it is not okay. What are you wanting to treat

with it?

>

> Bee

>