Zinc and copper intake

[Guest guest]

Hi Everyone,

Several people, including Isundra, (rfintzy), and (Ccherblady),

have written saying that they don't seem to be making progress anymore. I've

been concerned about this and given it a great deal of thought. First let me

say that these three individuals are all hypos who are trying to increase

their zinc. Other hypos have increased their zinc and felt better, but some

are still going up and down. A couple hypos have taken the same supplements

and recovered enough to not need replacement hormone any more. One took about

three weeks, the other three days. I think this is a serious issue and we

need to figure out what is going on. Why do some hypos recover and others

haven't. Hypers should also pay attention to this information.

The more I look at these thyroid diseases, the closer hypoT and hyperT seem.

They may be just the two phases of the same disease. People swing back and

forth between the two phases and without nutritional supplementation, this

seems to occur haphazardly. Similar deficiencies seem to be prevalent in both

cases with the main difference being the zinc/copper balance. I think that

many people who are diagnosed as hypo may be actually hyper, but they are

deficient in some minerals which are directly needed in the thyroid hormone

manufacturing process, so their thyroid hormone is low.

So there may be two types of hypos: hypos who have adequate levels or high

levels of copper, and those who are deficient in copper (and maybe boron and

other minerals). Perhaps we need two different initial supplement programs to

deal with these two types of hypothyroidism. While both types of hypos seem

to need a complete supplementation program, perhaps the amounts of zinc and

copper need to be varied depending on the type of hypoT.

Suppose in Type I HypoT, the person is doesn't have too many deficiencies.

Copper is adequate and therefore there is plenty of estrogen which is

suppressing the thyroid. What is missing is zinc (and possibly some unknown

nutrients like Vitamin E or some B vitamins--I don't know, just throwing these

out), and therefore progesterone production is low. The person takes a few

supplements and a lot of zinc and bingo, the progesterone production starts

rolling and if there are no other serious problems, the thyroid kicks in.

In Type II HypoT, however, the copper is extremely low as is the zinc and

maybe a few other nutrients. When the person starts the supplement program,

the zinc gets the energy up for a few days, and then bam, down into the dumps.

Why? Maybe the zinc is too great for the amount of copper, and instead of the

copper getting built up, it gets further depressed. If the zinc is too much

for the body processes, then the excess zinc may be causing the copper to be

excreted rather than being utilized. Since copper is so essential for

cleansing, repair, and hemoglobin production, this excretion of copper could

be further depleting the body and causing major troubles. Remember that most

hypos have been taking 2-5 mg of copper, so this is a real possibility.

The other possibility for Type II HypoT is that the zinc is artifically

stimulating the progesterone production and the thyroid (which happens to

hyperTs). The underlying health of the body is not there. There may be many

nutritional deficiencies besides copper and possibly toxins, toxic metals,

hidden disease conditions, etc. By stimulating the thyroid artificially, the

person gets a higher energy level, starts increasing the activity, etc. but is

still really sick. In other words, the zinc is acting like a stimulant

(though acting through the hormone system) and it's the whipping the sick

horse syndrome. Good energy for a few days until the body breaks down.

So for Type II HypoT, it would be better to reduce the zinc for these two

reasons. First, to prevent the excess zinc from causing excretion of other

minerals like copper and further depleting the body. Second, to prevent the

excess zinc from acting like a stimulant and driving the body too fast when

it's sick. (Flooring the accelerator, when the car should be in the shop

getting major repair.)

Assuming this theory is correct (which is no small assumption), then the task

becomes determining the proper level of zinc. Here I think experimentation is

our only answer. Everyone should remember that the so-called " optimum

zinc/copper ratio of 8:1 " may not apply to anyone. Women seem to need more

copper than men, presumeably to make estrogen. Men seem to need more zinc

than women, presumeably to make testosterone. Maybe a man can take alot more

zinc than a woman without messing anything up. A man's body may take the zinc

needed for progesterone production and use the extra zinc for testosterone

production. A woman's body might use all the zinc to make progesterone and

get more than necessary. We just don't know how this all works and even

though the optimum ratio for men and women combined might be 8:1, what if

women need 4:1 and men need 20:1?? We have no information what the best ratio

might be. Plus, when we're trying to replenish depleted body supplies and we

have no idea what those levels are, it further clouds the whole issue.

What we need is a way to tell how much zinc and copper each person needs.

Hair analysis is probably the best method, but it takes a month to find the

results, and by then the body's zinc and copper could be significantly

different. I've been experimenting and have come up with a technique which we

can all try to see if it has any widespread usefullness.

I call my technique the chocolate craving test. Chocolate seems to be the

most consumed high chocolate food in our diets (how many people crave crab or

lobster?). Here's how I discovered this. I was taking 100 mg of zinc and 5

mg of copper a day throughout my recovery from hyperT. I continued that and

actually increased the copper to 10 mg for months. The interesting thing is

that I had a very strong craving for chocolate which I thought was strange

since I was getting 10 mg a day (and remember that I should need less than

most women.) As I tried to improve my diet and eliminate phytates which bind

zinc and ate more high zinc meats, the chocolate craving got worse. I started

hiding chocolate bars in my briefcase, in my sock drawer, and all over the

house. Any animal psychologist would recognize this as true hoarding

behavior, which is a sign of a very strong need.

Meanwhile I was getting more and more rapid heart beat (RHB) at night. After

experimenting with all my supplements, I determined that the RHB was from the

zinc. I stopped the zinc completely to see what would happen and stopped the

copper too. My craving for chocolate went from two 3.5 oz bars a day plus

chocolate chip cookies to zero. I stopped thinking about chocolate, forgot

where I hid it, and had absolutely no desire whatever for chocolate.

I realized that despite the 10 mg of copper, I craved even more copper in the

chocolate to counter the excess zinc that I was taking. Even with all that

copper to antagonize and presumeably help excrete the zinc, the excess zinc

was still driving my thyroid too fast. When I stopped taking the zinc and

copper, the RHB stopped abruptly. Absolutely no problems. My hair analysis

in September showed that both my zinc and copper levels are fine now so I'm

not concerned; just vigilant.

So here's how to use the copper craving test. If you're craving chocolate

and are taking 4 or more mg of copper a day, then you are probably taking too

much zinc. You may be getting RHB which is definitely a sign of too much

zinc, but also you may not be getting RHB. Use the copper craving as the test

of your zinc level. No copper craving, increase the zinc a little. When you

crave copper, decrease the zinc just enough to get rid of that craving. This

should keep your zinc level down to a appropriate nutritional dosage and avoid

having a high level of zinc which is inappropriately stimulating your thyroid.

Let me know what you think of this test and the concept of the two types of

hypoT. If we try it out and it seems to work with other people, then we will

have another tool for assessing levels of copper and zinc.

So for Isundra, , Joyce, and anyone else who may be a Type II

hypo, try decreasing the zinc to see what happens, and let me know about both

the chocolate cravings and what happens when you decrease the zinc.

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