Re: UHMS and HBOT maintenance costs?

[Guest guest]

Just off the top of my head,  here are some of the expenses that drive the price

of HBO in hospitals:

1)  Annual maintenance (approx. $3000/chamber + travel)

2)  10 year depot level maintenance (approx/$30,000 + shipping )

3)  On call professional staff 24/7 (unlike free standing)

4)  Critical care equipment (purchase and maintain- ventilator, ekg, CAS bp

monitor, code cart- generally not found in free standing)

5)  Joint Commission and assorted other inspections required for hospitals and

not free standing (range in costs depending on the size of the team).

These are just some of the costs that are figured into treatments in addition to

the costs of patients who do not pay their bills and the costs are shifted

elsewhere.

 

Wayne D. McHowell, RN, BSN, ONC, CHRNA

From: Freels <dfreels@...>

Subject: [ ] UHMS and HBOT maintenance costs?

medicaid

Date: Sunday, August 9, 2009, 7:21 PM

 

All,

I've found an interesting comment/question by Dr. Roy Meyers, a member of the

leadership hierarchy within the UHMS, and I'm hoping someone here can help me

with this.

The quote comes from an April 4, 1999 lecture given by Dr. Philip , MD at a

UHMS-sponsored CME (continuing medical education) course in Columbia, SC. Also

on the roster that day was Dr. Harch, MD.

Harch gave the previous lecture, covering HBOT for acute brain-injury. Dr

followed with a lecture on chronic brain-injury. A panel discussion followed

each lecture. Panelists included Meyers and then-UHMS President Dr. Caroline

Fife, MD and Dr. Chan, MD. At the time, Fife and Chan headed up the UHMS

Ethics Task Force--a Fife creation designed to explore the how and why and if

new indications like cerebral palsy could be added to the UHMS-covered uses

list.

Meyers' comment comes during a discussion of the UK's HBOT treatment centres

(http://www.ms- selfhelp. org/). He's raising the issue of treatment costs at

the UK patient-run clinics. I posted a clip of this brief exchange on YouTube

(http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=Aq5e9sHJzcI & fmt=18) a while ago, and it might

be worth reviewing in light of not only the comments/questions but also the body

language too of the participants.

In looking at this again, I believe this is a set-up by Meyers and Fife. It's

the final straw to ice the UHMS membership against any notions of including

brain-injury treatment in a UHMS practice--despite all the evidence they've just

seen and heard. Though Fife is the titled leader in 2 capacities, she's given

Meyers the bullet and letting him load the gun and pull the trigger. She's

sitting there intentionally looking away from Dr like he's being scolded,

with her fingers meeting each other on the table in front of her, like she's

guarding the gate while looking vacantly out toward the audience until just the

right moment. She knows what's coming. Meyers the inquisitor is facing Dr.

. Meyers has a shaven Yul Brynner-style bald head and some sort of foreign

accent that's reminiscent of Germany in the 1930's and 40's. When Meyers utters

the word 'pay,' as if on cue, Fife then conclusively folds her fingers together

and turns to also look at Dr

.

It's two on one.

The only thing missing is she doesn't say, " Yeah-- "

Here's the brief transcript of the exchange. My question follows.

Meyers: Address what in this country what will be a major issue, and that is the

cost. And uh, you've circumvented that in England by doing it without, outside

the benefits of the [national] health system. Does anyone pay for maintaining

the chambers, and are there, what sort of costs are there involved with this?

Does NIH--does the, uh, English health system pay anything towards it?

PB: It pays nothing. And, uh, the costs are entirely borne by the patient.

Uhm, it's operated, uh, very leanly. And the average cost for an hour of

treatment in our centres is about 5 pounds.

(off-camera) Dick , UHMS CME moderator: $8.

My questions.

Meyers says, " Does anyone pay for maintaining the chambers, and are there, what

sort of costs are there involved with this? "

What are the maintenance costs associated with a UHMS facility? What are the

specific costs, like amortized per treatment, per chamber, per week, month,

year, etc.

Also, are there other costs mandated by UHMS besides maintenance costs that

Meyers could be referring to when he says, " ...and are there, what sort of costs

are there involved with this? "

Any help with this is tremendously appreciated. You may email me off-list if

needed. mailto:daviddavidfreels (DOT) com

Thank you.

Freels

2948 Windfield Circle

Tucker, GA 30084-6714

770-491-6776 (phone)

404-725-4520 (cell)

815-366-7962 (fax)

http://www.davidfre els.com

mailto:daviddavidfreels (DOT) com

Freels

http://www.davidfre els.com

daviddavidfreels (DOT) com

[Guest guest]

I think the operative business word is " overhead. " Having done budgeting work

for a couple of companies of various sizes, as you scale up, two of the biggest

variable costs that you have to fold into your service fees are generically

summed up:

1. Real estate costs in $/sq ft, averaged over the entire building (utilities,

floor polishing, keeping the lawn pretty, and whatever the lease rate is).

2. The salaries and benefits of the entire pool of employees. Most small

companies don't offer 401k's and other fancy benefits, nor do they have an

expensive executive staff or a large number of of lesser-paid but numerous

service staff, neither of which directly provide the service in question. The

owner of a small business might sweep his own floor, not pay someone else to do

it, and probably doesn't collect the pay of a large company executive.

>

>

> From: Freels <dfreels@...>

> Subject: [ ] UHMS and HBOT maintenance costs?

> medicaid

> Date: Sunday, August 9, 2009, 7:21 PM

>

>

>

>

>

>

> All,

>

> I've found an interesting comment/question by Dr. Roy Meyers, a member of the

leadership hierarchy within the UHMS, and I'm hoping someone here can help me

with this.

>

> The quote comes from an April 4, 1999 lecture given by Dr. Philip , MD at

a UHMS-sponsored CME (continuing medical education) course in Columbia, SC. Also

on the roster that day was Dr. Harch, MD.

>

> Harch gave the previous lecture, covering HBOT for acute brain-injury. Dr

followed with a lecture on chronic brain-injury. A panel discussion

followed each lecture. Panelists included Meyers and then-UHMS President Dr.

Caroline Fife, MD and Dr. Chan, MD. At the time, Fife and Chan headed up

the UHMS Ethics Task Force--a Fife creation designed to explore the how and why

and if new indications like cerebral palsy could be added to the UHMS-covered

uses list.

>

> Meyers' comment comes during a discussion of the UK's HBOT treatment centres

(http://www.ms- selfhelp. org/). He's raising the issue of treatment costs at

the UK patient-run clinics. I posted a clip of this brief exchange on YouTube

(http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=Aq5e9sHJzcI & fmt=18) a while ago, and it might

be worth reviewing in light of not only the comments/questions but also the body

language too of the participants.

>

> In looking at this again, I believe this is a set-up by Meyers and Fife. It's

the final straw to ice the UHMS membership against any notions of including

brain-injury treatment in a UHMS practice--despite all the evidence they've just

seen and heard. Though Fife is the titled leader in 2 capacities, she's given

Meyers the bullet and letting him load the gun and pull the trigger. She's

sitting there intentionally looking away from Dr like he's being scolded,

with her fingers meeting each other on the table in front of her, like she's

guarding the gate while looking vacantly out toward the audience until just the

right moment. She knows what's coming. Meyers the inquisitor is facing Dr.

. Meyers has a shaven Yul Brynner-style bald head and some sort of foreign

accent that's reminiscent of Germany in the 1930's and 40's. When Meyers utters

the word 'pay,' as if on cue, Fife then conclusively folds her fingers together

and turns to also look at Dr

> .

>

> It's two on one.

>

> The only thing missing is she doesn't say, " Yeah-- "

>

> Here's the brief transcript of the exchange. My question follows.

>

> Meyers: Address what in this country what will be a major issue, and that is

the cost. And uh, you've circumvented that in England by doing it without,

outside the benefits of the [national] health system. Does anyone pay for

maintaining the chambers, and are there, what sort of costs are there involved

with this? Does NIH--does the, uh, English health system pay anything towards

it?

>

> PB: It pays nothing. And, uh, the costs are entirely borne by the

patient. Uhm, it's operated, uh, very leanly. And the average cost for an hour

of treatment in our centres is about 5 pounds.

>

> (off-camera) Dick , UHMS CME moderator: $8.

>

> My questions.

>

> Meyers says, " Does anyone pay for maintaining the chambers, and are there,

what sort of costs are there involved with this? "

>

> What are the maintenance costs associated with a UHMS facility? What are the

specific costs, like amortized per treatment, per chamber, per week, month,

year, etc.

>

> Also, are there other costs mandated by UHMS besides maintenance costs that

Meyers could be referring to when he says, " ...and are there, what sort of costs

are there involved with this? "

>

> Any help with this is tremendously appreciated. You may email me off-list if

needed. mailto:daviddavidfreels (DOT) com

>

> Thank you.

>

> Freels

> 2948 Windfield Circle

> Tucker, GA 30084-6714

> 770-491-6776 (phone)

> 404-725-4520 (cell)

> 815-366-7962 (fax)

>

> http://www.davidfre els.com

>

> mailto:daviddavidfreels (DOT) com

>

> Freels

> http://www.davidfre els.com

> daviddavidfreels (DOT) com

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

RE: Expenses -

The real question is can we afford NOT to spend for it.

HBOT is the most cost effective care for most brain injuries. These

patients are extra-ordinarily expensive to us. Yet, they do very well

and their costs drop dramatically with HBOT.

These patients are far less expensive to treat for a life time of lower

medical costs, verses say, giving a cancer victim a few months more of

suffering life.

The issue of expense is truly entirely adverse to UHMS positions. Using

their reviews, ALL HBOT SHOULD BE IMPLEMENTED OUTSIDE THE HOSPITAL.

Similar to dialysis, which is predominantly done outside the hospital,

and is far more dangerous and injurious than HBOT (many patients die

during dialysis), it is far cheaper when done outside the hospital and

far more convenient.

Thus, all HBOT should be done otside the hospital and we should petition

for this, in order to support the UHMS concerns about expenses.

The average hospital HBOT session in CA is $1,500, while the average

Freestanding clinic is $200.

Most taxpayers and administrators can do the math.

PS Just having an empty medical building has high maint. costs in Califo.

Blessings,

Ed

On 8/10/2009 5:32 AM, Wayne McHowell wrote:

>

> Just off the top of my head, here are some of the expenses that drive

> the price of HBO in hospitals:

> 1) Annual maintenance (approx. $3000/chamber + travel)

> 2) 10 year depot level maintenance (approx/$30,000 + shipping )

> 3) On call professional staff 24/7 (unlike free standing)

> 4) Critical care equipment (purchase and maintain- ventilator, ekg,

> CAS bp monitor, code cart- generally not found in free standing)

> 5) Joint Commission and assorted other inspections required for

> hospitals and not free standing (range in costs depending on the size

> of the team).

> These are just some of the costs that are figured into treatments in

> addition to the costs of patients who do not pay their bills and the

> costs are shifted elsewhere.

>

> Wayne D. McHowell, RN, BSN, ONC, CHRNA

>

>

>

> From: Freels <dfreels@...

> <mailto:dfreels%40mindspring.com>>

> Subject: [ ] UHMS and HBOT maintenance costs?

> medicaid

> <mailto:medicaid%40>

> Date: Sunday, August 9, 2009, 7:21 PM

>

>

>

> All,

>

> I've found an interesting comment/question by Dr. Roy Meyers, a member

> of the leadership hierarchy within the UHMS, and I'm hoping someone

> here can help me with this.

>

> The quote comes from an April 4, 1999 lecture given by Dr. Philip

> , MD at a UHMS-sponsored CME (continuing medical education)

> course in Columbia, SC. Also on the roster that day was Dr.

> Harch, MD.

>

> Harch gave the previous lecture, covering HBOT for acute brain-injury.

> Dr followed with a lecture on chronic brain-injury. A panel

> discussion followed each lecture. Panelists included Meyers and

> then-UHMS President Dr. Caroline Fife, MD and Dr. Chan, MD. At

> the time, Fife and Chan headed up the UHMS Ethics Task Force--a Fife

> creation designed to explore the how and why and if new indications

> like cerebral palsy could be added to the UHMS-covered uses list.

>

> Meyers' comment comes during a discussion of the UK's HBOT treatment

> centres (http://www.ms- selfhelp. org/). He's raising the issue of

> treatment costs at the UK patient-run clinics. I posted a clip of this

> brief exchange on YouTube (http://www.youtube. com/watch?

> v=Aq5e9sHJzcI & fmt=18) a while ago, and it might be worth reviewing in

> light of not only the comments/questions but also the body language

> too of the participants.

>

> In looking at this again, I believe this is a set-up by Meyers and

> Fife. It's the final straw to ice the UHMS membership against any

> notions of including brain-injury treatment in a UHMS

> practice--despite all the evidence they've just seen and heard. Though

> Fife is the titled leader in 2 capacities, she's given Meyers the

> bullet and letting him load the gun and pull the trigger. She's

> sitting there intentionally looking away from Dr like he's being

> scolded, with her fingers meeting each other on the table in front of

> her, like she's guarding the gate while looking vacantly out toward

> the audience until just the right moment. She knows what's coming.

> Meyers the inquisitor is facing Dr. . Meyers has a shaven Yul

> Brynner-style bald head and some sort of foreign accent that's

> reminiscent of Germany in the 1930's and 40's. When Meyers utters the

> word 'pay,' as if on cue, Fife then conclusively folds her fingers

> together and turns to also look at Dr

> .

>

> It's two on one.

>

> The only thing missing is she doesn't say, " Yeah-- "

>

> Here's the brief transcript of the exchange. My question follows.

>

> Meyers: Address what in this country what will be a major issue, and

> that is the cost. And uh, you've circumvented that in England by doing

> it without, outside the benefits of the [national] health system. Does

> anyone pay for maintaining the chambers, and are there, what sort of

> costs are there involved with this? Does NIH--does the, uh, English

> health system pay anything towards it?

>

> PB: It pays nothing. And, uh, the costs are entirely borne by the

> patient. Uhm, it's operated, uh, very leanly. And the average cost for

> an hour of treatment in our centres is about 5 pounds.

>

> (off-camera) Dick , UHMS CME moderator: $8.

>

> My questions.

>

> Meyers says, " Does anyone pay for maintaining the chambers, and are

> there, what sort of costs are there involved with this? "

>

> What are the maintenance costs associated with a UHMS facility? What

> are the specific costs, like amortized per treatment, per chamber, per

> week, month, year, etc.

>

> Also, are there other costs mandated by UHMS besides maintenance costs

> that Meyers could be referring to when he says, " ...and are there,

> what sort of costs are there involved with this? "

>

> Any help with this is tremendously appreciated. You may email me

> off-list if needed. mailto:daviddavidfreels (DOT) com

>

> Thank you.

>

> Freels

> 2948 Windfield Circle

> Tucker, GA 30084-6714

> 770-491-6776 (phone)

> 404-725-4520 (cell)

> 815-366-7962 (fax)

>

> http://www.davidfre els.com

>

> mailto:daviddavidfreels (DOT) com

>

> Freels

> http://www.davidfre els.com

> daviddavidfreels (DOT) com

>

>

[Guest guest]

RE: Expenses -

The real question is can we afford NOT to spend for it.

HBOT is the most cost effective care for most brain injuries. These

patients are extra-ordinarily expensive to us. Yet, they do very well

and their costs drop dramatically with HBOT.

These patients are far less expensive to treat for a life time of lower

medical costs, verses say, giving a cancer victim a few months more of

suffering life.

The issue of expense is truly entirely adverse to UHMS positions. Using

their reviews, ALL HBOT SHOULD BE IMPLEMENTED OUTSIDE THE HOSPITAL.

Similar to dialysis, which is predominantly done outside the hospital,

and is far more dangerous and injurious than HBOT (many patients die

during dialysis), it is far cheaper when done outside the hospital and

far more convenient.

Thus, all HBOT should be done otside the hospital and we should petition

for this, in order to support the UHMS concerns about expenses.

The average hospital HBOT session in CA is $1,500, while the average

Freestanding clinic is $200.

Most taxpayers and administrators can do the math.

PS Just having an empty medical building has high maint. costs in Califo.

Blessings,

Ed

On 8/10/2009 5:32 AM, Wayne McHowell wrote:

>

> Just off the top of my head, here are some of the expenses that drive

> the price of HBO in hospitals:

> 1) Annual maintenance (approx. $3000/chamber + travel)

> 2) 10 year depot level maintenance (approx/$30,000 + shipping )

> 3) On call professional staff 24/7 (unlike free standing)

> 4) Critical care equipment (purchase and maintain- ventilator, ekg,

> CAS bp monitor, code cart- generally not found in free standing)

> 5) Joint Commission and assorted other inspections required for

> hospitals and not free standing (range in costs depending on the size

> of the team).

> These are just some of the costs that are figured into treatments in

> addition to the costs of patients who do not pay their bills and the

> costs are shifted elsewhere.

>

> Wayne D. McHowell, RN, BSN, ONC, CHRNA

>

>

>

> From: Freels <dfreels@...

> <mailto:dfreels%40mindspring.com>>

> Subject: [ ] UHMS and HBOT maintenance costs?

> medicaid

> <mailto:medicaid%40>

> Date: Sunday, August 9, 2009, 7:21 PM

>

>

>

> All,

>

> I've found an interesting comment/question by Dr. Roy Meyers, a member

> of the leadership hierarchy within the UHMS, and I'm hoping someone

> here can help me with this.

>

> The quote comes from an April 4, 1999 lecture given by Dr. Philip

> , MD at a UHMS-sponsored CME (continuing medical education)

> course in Columbia, SC. Also on the roster that day was Dr.

> Harch, MD.

>

> Harch gave the previous lecture, covering HBOT for acute brain-injury.

> Dr followed with a lecture on chronic brain-injury. A panel

> discussion followed each lecture. Panelists included Meyers and

> then-UHMS President Dr. Caroline Fife, MD and Dr. Chan, MD. At

> the time, Fife and Chan headed up the UHMS Ethics Task Force--a Fife

> creation designed to explore the how and why and if new indications

> like cerebral palsy could be added to the UHMS-covered uses list.

>

> Meyers' comment comes during a discussion of the UK's HBOT treatment

> centres (http://www.ms- selfhelp. org/). He's raising the issue of

> treatment costs at the UK patient-run clinics. I posted a clip of this

> brief exchange on YouTube (http://www.youtube. com/watch?

> v=Aq5e9sHJzcI & fmt=18) a while ago, and it might be worth reviewing in

> light of not only the comments/questions but also the body language

> too of the participants.

>

> In looking at this again, I believe this is a set-up by Meyers and

> Fife. It's the final straw to ice the UHMS membership against any

> notions of including brain-injury treatment in a UHMS

> practice--despite all the evidence they've just seen and heard. Though

> Fife is the titled leader in 2 capacities, she's given Meyers the

> bullet and letting him load the gun and pull the trigger. She's

> sitting there intentionally looking away from Dr like he's being

> scolded, with her fingers meeting each other on the table in front of

> her, like she's guarding the gate while looking vacantly out toward

> the audience until just the right moment. She knows what's coming.

> Meyers the inquisitor is facing Dr. . Meyers has a shaven Yul

> Brynner-style bald head and some sort of foreign accent that's

> reminiscent of Germany in the 1930's and 40's. When Meyers utters the

> word 'pay,' as if on cue, Fife then conclusively folds her fingers

> together and turns to also look at Dr

> .

>

> It's two on one.

>

> The only thing missing is she doesn't say, " Yeah-- "

>

> Here's the brief transcript of the exchange. My question follows.

>

> Meyers: Address what in this country what will be a major issue, and

> that is the cost. And uh, you've circumvented that in England by doing

> it without, outside the benefits of the [national] health system. Does

> anyone pay for maintaining the chambers, and are there, what sort of

> costs are there involved with this? Does NIH--does the, uh, English

> health system pay anything towards it?

>

> PB: It pays nothing. And, uh, the costs are entirely borne by the

> patient. Uhm, it's operated, uh, very leanly. And the average cost for

> an hour of treatment in our centres is about 5 pounds.

>

> (off-camera) Dick , UHMS CME moderator: $8.

>

> My questions.

>

> Meyers says, " Does anyone pay for maintaining the chambers, and are

> there, what sort of costs are there involved with this? "

>

> What are the maintenance costs associated with a UHMS facility? What

> are the specific costs, like amortized per treatment, per chamber, per

> week, month, year, etc.

>

> Also, are there other costs mandated by UHMS besides maintenance costs

> that Meyers could be referring to when he says, " ...and are there,

> what sort of costs are there involved with this? "

>

> Any help with this is tremendously appreciated. You may email me

> off-list if needed. mailto:daviddavidfreels (DOT) com

>

> Thank you.

>

> Freels

> 2948 Windfield Circle

> Tucker, GA 30084-6714

> 770-491-6776 (phone)

> 404-725-4520 (cell)

> 815-366-7962 (fax)

>

> http://www.davidfre els.com

>

> mailto:daviddavidfreels (DOT) com

>

> Freels

> http://www.davidfre els.com

> daviddavidfreels (DOT) com

>

>

[Guest guest]

Ed, I'm afraid cancer care is another mismanaged issue, As I know from having

had to manage my daughter's cancer care as well as her current HBOT.

All treatments in oncology seem to focus on expensive ongoing and ineffective

*chemo* (my dearly reparted dad used to call his oncologist the

" Chemotherapist " ) My daughter went through years of in-an-out of the hospital

for that crap which destroyed her body until I was told she was terminal. It

took quite a bit of political pandering to find a hospital and doctor willing to

give her a bone-marrow transplant - like HBOT, it has a large up-front cost but

once done she was DONE with cancer treatment. 2 years later she is cancer-free

and we just have to clean up the mess they made with treatments before the

transplant (hence her involvement in HBOT). You have to wonder if all

treatments are skewed towards lower cost, chronic treatment methods because it

generates a better revenue stream for the hospital and easier-to-manage payouts

from insurance.

> >

> > From: Freels <dfreels@...

> > <mailto:dfreels%40mindspring.com>>

> > Subject: [ ] UHMS and HBOT maintenance costs?

> > medicaid

> > <mailto:medicaid%40>

> > Date: Sunday, August 9, 2009, 7:21 PM

> >

> >

> >

> > All,

> >

> > I've found an interesting comment/question by Dr. Roy Meyers, a member

> > of the leadership hierarchy within the UHMS, and I'm hoping someone

> > here can help me with this.

> >

> > The quote comes from an April 4, 1999 lecture given by Dr. Philip

> > , MD at a UHMS-sponsored CME (continuing medical education)

> > course in Columbia, SC. Also on the roster that day was Dr.

> > Harch, MD.

> >

> > Harch gave the previous lecture, covering HBOT for acute brain-injury.

> > Dr followed with a lecture on chronic brain-injury. A panel

> > discussion followed each lecture. Panelists included Meyers and

> > then-UHMS President Dr. Caroline Fife, MD and Dr. Chan, MD. At

> > the time, Fife and Chan headed up the UHMS Ethics Task Force--a Fife

> > creation designed to explore the how and why and if new indications

> > like cerebral palsy could be added to the UHMS-covered uses list.

> >

> > Meyers' comment comes during a discussion of the UK's HBOT treatment

> > centres (http://www.ms- selfhelp. org/). He's raising the issue of

> > treatment costs at the UK patient-run clinics. I posted a clip of this

> > brief exchange on YouTube (http://www.youtube. com/watch?

> > v=Aq5e9sHJzcI & fmt=18) a while ago, and it might be worth reviewing in

> > light of not only the comments/questions but also the body language

> > too of the participants.

> >

> > In looking at this again, I believe this is a set-up by Meyers and

> > Fife. It's the final straw to ice the UHMS membership against any

> > notions of including brain-injury treatment in a UHMS

> > practice--despite all the evidence they've just seen and heard. Though

> > Fife is the titled leader in 2 capacities, she's given Meyers the

> > bullet and letting him load the gun and pull the trigger. She's

> > sitting there intentionally looking away from Dr like he's being

> > scolded, with her fingers meeting each other on the table in front of

> > her, like she's guarding the gate while looking vacantly out toward

> > the audience until just the right moment. She knows what's coming.

> > Meyers the inquisitor is facing Dr. . Meyers has a shaven Yul

> > Brynner-style bald head and some sort of foreign accent that's

> > reminiscent of Germany in the 1930's and 40's. When Meyers utters the

> > word 'pay,' as if on cue, Fife then conclusively folds her fingers

> > together and turns to also look at Dr

> > .

> >

> > It's two on one.

> >

> > The only thing missing is she doesn't say, " Yeah-- "

> >

> > Here's the brief transcript of the exchange. My question follows.

> >

> > Meyers: Address what in this country what will be a major issue, and

> > that is the cost. And uh, you've circumvented that in England by doing

> > it without, outside the benefits of the [national] health system. Does

> > anyone pay for maintaining the chambers, and are there, what sort of

> > costs are there involved with this? Does NIH--does the, uh, English

> > health system pay anything towards it?

> >

> > PB: It pays nothing. And, uh, the costs are entirely borne by the

> > patient. Uhm, it's operated, uh, very leanly. And the average cost for

> > an hour of treatment in our centres is about 5 pounds.

> >

> > (off-camera) Dick , UHMS CME moderator: $8.

> >

> > My questions.

> >

> > Meyers says, " Does anyone pay for maintaining the chambers, and are

> > there, what sort of costs are there involved with this? "

> >

> > What are the maintenance costs associated with a UHMS facility? What

> > are the specific costs, like amortized per treatment, per chamber, per

> > week, month, year, etc.

> >

> > Also, are there other costs mandated by UHMS besides maintenance costs

> > that Meyers could be referring to when he says, " ...and are there,

> > what sort of costs are there involved with this? "

> >

> > Any help with this is tremendously appreciated. You may email me

> > off-list if needed. mailto:daviddavidfreels (DOT) com

> >

> > Thank you.

> >

> > Freels

> > 2948 Windfield Circle

> > Tucker, GA 30084-6714

> > 770-491-6776 (phone)

> > 404-725-4520 (cell)

> > 815-366-7962 (fax)

> >

> > http://www.davidfre els.com

> >

> > mailto:daviddavidfreels (DOT) com

> >

> > Freels

> > http://www.davidfre els.com

> > daviddavidfreels (DOT) com

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

The issue is we only pursue science on proprietary technologies. This

removes many valuable treatment opportunities from our reach.

Today, I doubt aspirin could be developed for headaches, etc, and

Vitamin C would have a very difficult time being accepted for scurvy.

On 8/10/2009 7:25 AM, wrote:

>

> Ed, I'm afraid cancer care is another mismanaged issue, As I know from

> having had to manage my daughter's cancer care as well as her current

> HBOT.

> All treatments in oncology seem to focus on expensive ongoing and

> ineffective *chemo* (my dearly reparted dad used to call his

> oncologist the " Chemotherapist " ) My daughter went through years of

> in-an-out of the hospital for that crap which destroyed her body until

> I was told she was terminal. It took quite a bit of political

> pandering to find a hospital and doctor willing to give her a

> bone-marrow transplant - like HBOT, it has a large up-front cost but

> once done she was DONE with cancer treatment. 2 years later she is

> cancer-free and we just have to clean up the mess they made with

> treatments before the transplant (hence her involvement in HBOT). You

> have to wonder if all treatments are skewed towards lower cost,

> chronic treatment methods because it generates a better revenue stream

> for the hospital and easier-to-manage payouts from insurance.

>

>

> > >

> > > From: Freels <dfreels@...

> > > <mailto:dfreels%40mindspring.com>>

> > > Subject: [ ] UHMS and HBOT maintenance costs?

> > > medicaid

> <mailto:medicaid%40>

> > > <mailto:medicaid%40>

> > > Date: Sunday, August 9, 2009, 7:21 PM

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > All,

> > >

> > > I've found an interesting comment/question by Dr. Roy Meyers, a

> member

> > > of the leadership hierarchy within the UHMS, and I'm hoping someone

> > > here can help me with this.

> > >

> > > The quote comes from an April 4, 1999 lecture given by Dr. Philip

> > > , MD at a UHMS-sponsored CME (continuing medical education)

> > > course in Columbia, SC. Also on the roster that day was Dr.

> > > Harch, MD.

> > >

> > > Harch gave the previous lecture, covering HBOT for acute

> brain-injury.

> > > Dr followed with a lecture on chronic brain-injury. A panel

> > > discussion followed each lecture. Panelists included Meyers and

> > > then-UHMS President Dr. Caroline Fife, MD and Dr. Chan, MD. At

> > > the time, Fife and Chan headed up the UHMS Ethics Task Force--a Fife

> > > creation designed to explore the how and why and if new indications

> > > like cerebral palsy could be added to the UHMS-covered uses list.

> > >

> > > Meyers' comment comes during a discussion of the UK's HBOT treatment

> > > centres (http://www.ms- selfhelp. org/). He's raising the issue of

> > > treatment costs at the UK patient-run clinics. I posted a clip of

> this

> > > brief exchange on YouTube (http://www.youtube. com/watch?

> > > v=Aq5e9sHJzcI & fmt=18) a while ago, and it might be worth

> reviewing in

> > > light of not only the comments/questions but also the body language

> > > too of the participants.

> > >

> > > In looking at this again, I believe this is a set-up by Meyers and

> > > Fife. It's the final straw to ice the UHMS membership against any

> > > notions of including brain-injury treatment in a UHMS

> > > practice--despite all the evidence they've just seen and heard.

> Though

> > > Fife is the titled leader in 2 capacities, she's given Meyers the

> > > bullet and letting him load the gun and pull the trigger. She's

> > > sitting there intentionally looking away from Dr like he's

> being

> > > scolded, with her fingers meeting each other on the table in front of

> > > her, like she's guarding the gate while looking vacantly out toward

> > > the audience until just the right moment. She knows what's coming.

> > > Meyers the inquisitor is facing Dr. . Meyers has a shaven Yul

> > > Brynner-style bald head and some sort of foreign accent that's

> > > reminiscent of Germany in the 1930's and 40's. When Meyers utters the

> > > word 'pay,' as if on cue, Fife then conclusively folds her fingers

> > > together and turns to also look at Dr

> > > .

> > >

> > > It's two on one.

> > >

> > > The only thing missing is she doesn't say, " Yeah-- "

> > >

> > > Here's the brief transcript of the exchange. My question follows.

> > >

> > > Meyers: Address what in this country what will be a major issue, and

> > > that is the cost. And uh, you've circumvented that in England by

> doing

> > > it without, outside the benefits of the [national] health system.

> Does

> > > anyone pay for maintaining the chambers, and are there, what sort of

> > > costs are there involved with this? Does NIH--does the, uh, English

> > > health system pay anything towards it?

> > >

> > > PB: It pays nothing. And, uh, the costs are entirely borne by

> the

> > > patient. Uhm, it's operated, uh, very leanly. And the average cost

> for

> > > an hour of treatment in our centres is about 5 pounds.

> > >

> > > (off-camera) Dick , UHMS CME moderator: $8.

> > >

> > > My questions.

> > >

> > > Meyers says, " Does anyone pay for maintaining the chambers, and are

> > > there, what sort of costs are there involved with this? "

> > >

> > > What are the maintenance costs associated with a UHMS facility? What

> > > are the specific costs, like amortized per treatment, per chamber,

> per

> > > week, month, year, etc.

> > >

> > > Also, are there other costs mandated by UHMS besides maintenance

> costs

> > > that Meyers could be referring to when he says, " ...and are there,

> > > what sort of costs are there involved with this? "

> > >

> > > Any help with this is tremendously appreciated. You may email me

> > > off-list if needed. mailto:daviddavidfreels (DOT) com

> > >

> > > Thank you.

> > >

> > > Freels

> > > 2948 Windfield Circle

> > > Tucker, GA 30084-6714

> > > 770-491-6776 (phone)

> > > 404-725-4520 (cell)

> > > 815-366-7962 (fax)

> > >

> > > http://www.davidfre els.com

> > >

> > > mailto:daviddavidfreels (DOT) com

> > >

> > > Freels

> > > http://www.davidfre els.com

> > > daviddavidfreels (DOT) com

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Can maintenance costs be used to generate revenue, i.e., can you mark up those

costs by 20% and pass them off to the hospital?

[ ] UHMS and HBOT maintenance costs?

>medicaid

>Date: Sunday, August 9, 2009, 7:21 PM

>

>

> 

>

>

>

>All,

>

>I've found an interesting comment/question by Dr. Roy Meyers, a member of the

leadership hierarchy within the UHMS, and I'm hoping someone here can help me

with this.

>

>The quote comes from an April 4, 1999 lecture given by Dr. Philip , MD at

a UHMS-sponsored CME (continuing medical education) course in Columbia, SC. Also

on the roster that day was Dr. Harch, MD.

>

>Harch gave the previous lecture, covering HBOT for acute brain-injury. Dr

followed with a lecture on chronic brain-injury. A panel discussion followed

each lecture. Panelists included Meyers and then-UHMS President Dr. Caroline

Fife, MD and Dr. Chan, MD. At the time, Fife and Chan headed up the UHMS

Ethics Task Force--a Fife creation designed to explore the how and why and if

new indications like cerebral palsy could be added to the UHMS-covered uses

list.

>

>Meyers' comment comes during a discussion of the UK's HBOT treatment centres

(http://www.ms- selfhelp. org/). He's raising the issue of treatment costs at

the UK patient-run clinics. I posted a clip of this brief exchange on YouTube

(http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=Aq5e9sHJzcI & fmt=18) a while ago, and it might

be worth reviewing in light of not only the comments/questions but also the body

language too of the participants.

>

>In looking at this again, I believe this is a set-up by Meyers and Fife. It's

the final straw to ice the UHMS membership against any notions of including

brain-injury treatment in a UHMS practice--despite all the evidence they've just

seen and heard. Though Fife is the titled leader in 2 capacities, she's given

Meyers the bullet and letting him load the gun and pull the trigger. She's

sitting there intentionally looking away from Dr like he's being scolded,

with her fingers meeting each other on the table in front of her, like she's

guarding the gate while looking vacantly out toward the audience until just the

right moment. She knows what's coming. Meyers the inquisitor is facing Dr.

. Meyers has a shaven Yul Brynner-style bald head and some sort of foreign

accent that's reminiscent of Germany in the 1930's and 40's. When Meyers utters

the word 'pay,' as if on cue, Fife then conclusively folds her fingers together

and turns to also look at Dr

> .

>

>It's two on one.

>

>The only thing missing is she doesn't say, " Yeah-- "

>

>Here's the brief transcript of the exchange. My question follows.

>

>Meyers: Address what in this country what will be a major issue, and that is

the cost. And uh, you've circumvented that in England by doing it without,

outside the benefits of the [national] health system. Does anyone pay for

maintaining the chambers, and are there, what sort of costs are there involved

with this? Does NIH--does the, uh, English health system pay anything towards

it?

>

>PB: It pays nothing. And, uh, the costs are entirely borne by the patient.

Uhm, it's operated, uh, very leanly. And the average cost for an hour of

treatment in our centres is about 5 pounds.

>

>(off-camera) Dick , UHMS CME moderator: $8.

>

>My questions.

>

>Meyers says, " Does anyone pay for maintaining the chambers, and are there, what

sort of costs are there involved with this? "

>

>What are the maintenance costs associated with a UHMS facility? What are the

specific costs, like amortized per treatment, per chamber, per week, month,

year, etc.

>

>Also, are there other costs mandated by UHMS besides maintenance costs that

Meyers could be referring to when he says, " ...and are there, what sort of costs

are there involved with this? "

>

>Any help with this is tremendously appreciated. You may email me off-list if

needed. mailto:daviddavidfreels (DOT) com

>

>Thank you.

>

> Freels

>2948 Windfield Circle

>Tucker, GA 30084-6714

>770-491-6776 (phone)

>404-725-4520 (cell)

>815-366-7962 (fax)

>

>http://www.davidfre els.com

>

>mailto:daviddavidfreels (DOT) com

>

> Freels

>http://www.davidfre els.com

>daviddavidfreels (DOT) com

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

: Wayne is very correct. Actually every hospital has its own unique

markup created in BBA97 that serves as their overhead costs. In all honesty,

though the hospital bills at $500 per hour, they are actually paid at slightly

over the free-standing (physician office) rate for HBOT. There is not that

great a markup when Medicare reimburses.

The fact that the UHMS said HBOT for brain injury was not cost effective at

$1,000 per hour was fantasy on their part, since nationwide in freestanding

facilities, it is about $16,000 to rebuild a brain, 1/2 of the cost of

convention care per the RAND report 4/28/2008. Here is the footnote on that in

the Memorandum:

RAND Report: “Invisible Wounds of War: Psychological and Cognitive Injuries,

Consequences, and Services to Assist Recovery.†Tanielian, Terri; Jaycox,

, April 2008, page xxii-xxiii: Two year costs within the first two years the

service member returns home; PTSD $5,904 to $10,298 depending on whether we

count the lives lost to suicide; Two year costs for major depression, $15,461 -

$25,757; co-morbid PTSD and major depression; $12,427 to $16,884; One year costs

for traumatic brain injury diagnosis: $25,572 to $30,730 in 2005 for mild cases

($27,259 to $32,759 in 2007 dollars), and $252,251 to $383,221 for moderate or

severe cases ($268,902 to $408,519 in 2007 dollars.) These costs, largely

treating symptoms, continue to have outyear costs and outyear consequences in

terms of disability payments, inability to work, etc. Given that the HBOT ONE

TIME cost for service members who need all 80 treatments averages $16,000 at

Medicare Reimbursement rates for a 1 hour treatment. (The cost is lower in some

states and higher in urban areas, with known rates set by CMS.) Hyperbaric

medicine alone, and hyperbaric medicine in conjunction with other treatments, is

very cost effective. If provided acutely within hours of injury, the treatment

is even more effective and massively more cost effective.

There has been an effort by UHMS to force all HBOT into hospitals. Under the

IHMA's vision for HBOT in the 21st Century, every single hospital will have at

least one chamber capable of going to 6.0, and capacity according to the number

of beds and whether they are a Level I trauma center or not. They have

sufficient need for their inpatient population, they do not need to treat

outpatients.

For the walking wounded, free-standing facilities would take care of the brain

injuries, CP, with those who have wound care capability taking care of diabetic

foot wounds, etc. Home installed portable chambers are appropriate for those

who need many more than 80 treatments, such as MS, Parkinson's, COPD, Chronic CO

poisoned patients, and potentially autism (though we believe we will be able to

solve that one with about 80 treatments in the near future, as we take care of

the concurrent environmental problems that lead to the condition.)

Bill Duncan

DR.

[Guest guest]

Dr D,

Thanks for your thoughts on this.

A couple of questions. What is BBA97?

I can't agree with your assessment of billing. An Atlanta doc is reimbursed

anywhere from the rate you quote up to $1500+. I've seen other quotes on the

Internet even higher. The highest I've found so far was for $5500/hour billed to

Medicare and paid by Medicare in NY state.

Also, Kindwall's book Hyperbaric Medicine Practice contains a chapter that

justifies denial of services based upon a cost/benefit ratio; however, the cost

is based upon UHMS-hospital based fees as opposed to the 90+% lower fee charged

in freestanding clinics. I believe this denial is by design and the primary

reason UHMS refuses to acknowledge HBOT efficacy for brain-injury. The simple

equation, if brain-injury were covered it would force a reduction in

reimbursement across the board since Medicare (the primary HBOT payor) has the

same reimbursement rate no matter what the indication.

Just as HBOT for diabetic foot wounds has become the primary, bread and butter

indication, this would be replaced by brain-injury--which typically requires a

minimum of 100 treatments. Even your current protocol of 80 treatments is 2x

more tx than is administered for all other UHMS indications, 80% of which can be

resolved in just 10 treatments--or less.

A lower rate would result in a whole lot more work for a whole lot less money.

That's the perpetual UHMS fear. Watch the clip I first referenced in the

beginning of this thread http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aq5e9sHJzcI & fmt=18 .

There are two things I've not mentioned. First, Dr. is caught somewhat

off-guard by the question--which I've never seen before or since. Typically he's

unflappable. I think he flapped because he knew what the UHMS audience reaction

was going to be when he stated the usual cost of " 5 pounds. "

Then you hear Little Dick produce a currency exchange, " Eight dollars. "

Next, there's an audible and universal gasp around the room, perhaps even from

the furniture. Obviously there's a huge price discrepancy between $8, $150,

$1500, and $5500. Somewhere in there is a reasonable profit, not a price made

artificially high so as to prevent a whole lot more work for a whole lot less

money.

I'm still intrigued with Roy Meyers' comment " Does anyone pay for maintaining

the chambers, and are there, what sort of costs are there involved with this? "

He's either saying maintenance costs are an additional revenue source here or

can somehow be passed on here. Second, he can't believe the cost can be so

inexpensive.

Also, can you give me a specific URL link to the RAND quote.

RE: [ ] UHMS and HBOT maintenance costs?

>

>: Wayne is very correct. Actually every hospital has its own unique

markup created in BBA97 that serves as their overhead costs. In all honesty,

though the hospital bills at $500 per hour, they are actually paid at slightly

over the free-standing (physician office) rate for HBOT. There is not that

great a markup when Medicare reimburses.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>The fact that the UHMS said HBOT for brain injury was not cost effective at

$1,000 per hour was fantasy on their part, since nationwide in freestanding

facilities, it is about $16,000 to rebuild a brain, 1/2 of the cost of

convention care per the RAND report 4/28/2008. Here is the footnote on that in

the Memorandum:

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>RAND Report: “Invisible Wounds of War: Psychological and Cognitive Injuries,

Consequences, and Services to Assist Recovery.†Tanielian, Terri; Jaycox,

, April 2008, page xxii-xxiii: Two year costs within the first two years the

service member returns home; PTSD $5,904 to $10,298 depending on whether we

count the lives lost to suicide; Two year costs for major depression, $15,461 -

$25,757; co-morbid PTSD and major depression; $12,427 to $16,884; One year costs

for traumatic brain injury diagnosis: $25,572 to $30,730 in 2005 for mild cases

($27,259 to $32,759 in 2007 dollars), and $252,251 to $383,221 for moderate or

severe cases ($268,902 to $408,519 in 2007 dollars.) These costs, largely

treating symptoms, continue to have outyear costs and outyear consequences in

terms of disability payments, inability to work, etc. Given that the HBOT ONE

TIME cost for service members who need all 80 treatments averages $16,000 at

Medicare Reimbursement rates for a 1 hour treatment. (The cost is lower in some

states and higher in urban areas, with known rates set by CMS.) Hyperbaric

medicine alone, and hyperbaric medicine in conjunction with other treatments, is

very cost effective. If provided acutely within hours of injury, the treatment

is even more effective and massively more cost effective.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>There has been an effort by UHMS to force all HBOT into hospitals. Under the

IHMA's vision for HBOT in the 21st Century, every single hospital will have at

least one chamber capable of going to 6.0, and capacity according to the number

of beds and whether they are a Level I trauma center or not. They have

sufficient need for their inpatient population, they do not need to treat

outpatients.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>For the walking wounded, free-standing facilities would take care of the brain

injuries, CP, with those who have wound care capability taking care of diabetic

foot wounds, etc. Home installed portable chambers are appropriate for those

who need many more than 80 treatments, such as MS, Parkinson's, COPD, Chronic CO

poisoned patients, and potentially autism (though we believe we will be able to

solve that one with about 80 treatments in the near future, as we take care of

the concurrent environmental problems that lead to the condition.)

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>Bill Duncan

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>DR.

[Guest guest]

Balanced Budget Act of 1997, revamping all of Medicare and paying physicians and

hospitals less for care through comprehensive price fixing.

You are correct about the UHMS fears about anything that drives down their cost

per treatment. However, once chambers are in use 16 hours per day, the average

cost, the cost of running a single treatment, will reduce dramatically. We ran

one set of numbers for a facility where Labor and Capital Space in the building

was not a cost. The Marginal cost of a treatment ran about $50 per hour,

including new chamber payments and O2, and amortized site installation. The VA's

cost per treatment, in house, is considered to be about $75 per treatment hour.

Bill Duncan

From: medicaid [mailto:medicaid ]

On Behalf Of Freels

Sent: Monday, August 10, 2009 4:51 PM

medicaid

Subject: RE: [ ] UHMS and HBOT maintenance costs?

Dr D,

Thanks for your thoughts on this.

A couple of questions. What is BBA97?

I can't agree with your assessment of billing. An Atlanta doc is reimbursed

anywhere from the rate you quote up to $1500+. I've seen other quotes on the

Internet even higher. The highest I've found so far was for $5500/hour billed to

Medicare and paid by Medicare in NY state.

Also, Kindwall's book Hyperbaric Medicine Practice contains a chapter that

justifies denial of services based upon a cost/benefit ratio; however, the cost

is based upon UHMS-hospital based fees as opposed to the 90+% lower fee charged

in freestanding clinics. I believe this denial is by design and the primary

reason UHMS refuses to acknowledge HBOT efficacy for brain-injury. The simple

equation, if brain-injury were covered it would force a reduction in

reimbursement across the board since Medicare (the primary HBOT payor) has the

same reimbursement rate no matter what the indication.

Just as HBOT for diabetic foot wounds has become the primary, bread and butter

indication, this would be replaced by brain-injury--which typically requires a

minimum of 100 treatments. Even your current protocol of 80 treatments is 2x

more tx than is administered for all other UHMS indications, 80% of which can be

resolved in just 10 treatments--or less.

A lower rate would result in a whole lot more work for a whole lot less money.

That's the perpetual UHMS fear. Watch the clip I first referenced in the

beginning of this thread http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aq5e9sHJzcI & fmt=18 .

There are two things I've not mentioned. First, Dr. is caught somewhat

off-guard by the question--which I've never seen before or since. Typically he's

unflappable. I think he flapped because he knew what the UHMS audience reaction

was going to be when he stated the usual cost of " 5 pounds. "

Then you hear Little Dick produce a currency exchange, " Eight dollars. "

Next, there's an audible and universal gasp around the room, perhaps even from

the furniture. Obviously there's a huge price discrepancy between $8, $150,

$1500, and $5500. Somewhere in there is a reasonable profit, not a price made

artificially high so as to prevent a whole lot more work for a whole lot less

money.

I'm still intrigued with Roy Meyers' comment " Does anyone pay for maintaining

the chambers, and are there, what sort of costs are there involved with this? "

He's either saying maintenance costs are an additional revenue source here or

can somehow be passed on here. Second, he can't believe the cost can be so

inexpensive.

Also, can you give me a specific URL link to the RAND quote.

RE: [ ] UHMS and HBOT maintenance costs?

>

>: Wayne is very correct. Actually every hospital has its own unique markup

created in BBA97 that serves as their overhead costs. In all honesty, though the

hospital bills at $500 per hour, they are actually paid at slightly over the

free-standing (physician office) rate for HBOT. There is not that great a markup

when Medicare reimburses.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>The fact that the UHMS said HBOT for brain injury was not cost effective at

$1,000 per hour was fantasy on their part, since nationwide in freestanding

facilities, it is about $16,000 to rebuild a brain, 1/2 of the cost of

convention care per the RAND report 4/28/2008. Here is the footnote on that in

the Memorandum:

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>RAND Report: “Invisible Wounds of War: Psychological and Cognitive Injuries,

Consequences, and Services to Assist Recovery.†Tanielian, Terri; Jaycox,

, April 2008, page xxii-xxiii: Two year costs within the first two years the

service member returns home; PTSD $5,904 to $10,298 depending on whether we

count the lives lost to suicide; Two year costs for major depression, $15,461 -

$25,757; co-morbid PTSD and major depression; $12,427 to $16,884; One year costs

for traumatic brain injury diagnosis: $25,572 to $30,730 in 2005 for mild cases

($27,259 to $32,759 in 2007 dollars), and $252,251 to $383,221 for moderate or

severe cases ($268,902 to $408,519 in 2007 dollars.) These costs, largely

treating symptoms, continue to have outyear costs and outyear consequences in

terms of disability payments, inability to work, etc. Given that the HBOT ONE

TIME cost for service members who need all 80 treatments averages $16,000 at

Medicare Reimbursement rates for a 1 hour treatment. (The cost is lower in some

states and higher in urban areas, with known rates set by CMS.) Hyperbaric

medicine alone, and hyperbaric medicine in conjunction with other treatments, is

very cost effective. If provided acutely within hours of injury, the treatment

is even more effective and massively more cost effective.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>There has been an effort by UHMS to force all HBOT into hospitals. Under the

IHMA's vision for HBOT in the 21st Century, every single hospital will have at

least one chamber capable of going to 6.0, and capacity according to the number

of beds and whether they are a Level I trauma center or not. They have

sufficient need for their inpatient population, they do not need to treat

outpatients.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>For the walking wounded, free-standing facilities would take care of the brain

injuries, CP, with those who have wound care capability taking care of diabetic

foot wounds, etc. Home installed portable chambers are appropriate for those who

need many more than 80 treatments, such as MS, Parkinson's, COPD, Chronic CO

poisoned patients, and potentially autism (though we believe we will be able to

solve that one with about 80 treatments in the near future, as we take care of

the concurrent environmental problems that lead to the condition.)

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>Bill Duncan

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>DR.