Guest guest Posted February 21, 2010 Report Share Posted February 21, 2010 Trish, You wrote: > > What are you disagreeing with ??? My assertion that I would rather avoid > adding to the unavoidable natural radiation or are you saying you > believe radiation is ok in small doses ...radiation accummulates doesn't > it, never goes away ... No, it doesn't, except at acute levels, above about 25-50 rem/year. Studies have shown that doses up to about 10 rem/year whole body actually extend life. The safety standard for radiation workers is 5 rem/year, just to be safe. The life extending effect is called hormesis. It is still a bit controversial. Just think of dental X-rays as " vitamins. " In contrast, aluminum does not seem to have any hormetic benefit, but we can process quite high levels without harm, as long as our kidneys are healthy. I would consider the hazards of a known carcinogen, such as chromate, to be more like radiation. These also often have a hormesis effect at trace doses with cumulative toxicity and risk at higher levels. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2010 Report Share Posted February 21, 2010 Thanks for the reply, when googling hormesis I found this: http://www.holisticonline.com/homeopathy/homeo_how_it_works.htm it seems low dose radiation isn't a quack remedy despite what others may say. Trish > > > > What are you disagreeing with ??? My assertion that I would rather avoid > > adding to the unavoidable natural radiation or are you saying you > > believe radiation is ok in small doses ...radiation accummulates doesn't > > it, never goes away ... > > No, it doesn't, except at acute levels, above about 25-50 rem/year. > Studies have shown that doses up to about 10 rem/year whole body > actually extend life. The safety standard for radiation workers is 5 > rem/year, just to be safe. The life extending effect is called hormesis. > It is still a bit controversial. Just think of dental X-rays as > " vitamins. " > > In contrast, aluminum does not seem to have any hormetic benefit, but we > can process quite high levels without harm, as long as our kidneys are > healthy. > > I would consider the hazards of a known carcinogen, such as chromate, to > be more like radiation. These also often have a hormesis effect at trace > doses with cumulative toxicity and risk at higher levels. > > Chuck > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2010 Report Share Posted February 21, 2010 Trish, You wrote: > ... it seems low dose radiation isn't a quack remedy despite what others may > say. I wouldn't go that far, but rock samples that deliver less than the legal limit of 5 rem per year whole body are probably not going to hurt you. OTOH, how do you know how much radiation you get from a rock? Madame Curie died of bone cancer from processing rock that contained radium. If you get a nuclear procedure done, then you ARE in the cumulative part of the curve, which means a few extra rem on top of that WILL increase your risk. I would also not recommend having rocks around containing thorium, radium, or uranium. These have long decay chains, which means they are quite hazardous taken internally. There is no hormesis if you get it on your hands and later ingest it. Finally, if you buy enough rock with enough radioactivity in it, you will need a license. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2010 Report Share Posted February 21, 2010 I saw a program on television that demonstrated that certain countertops made of granite had very high levels of radiation coming off of it, while another had very little. They advised that before you buy a particular piece of granite for your countertop you check it with a geiger counter. Radiation is nothing to fool with and can show up in a number of places. <>Roni Immortality exists! It's called knowledge! Just because something isn't seen doesn't mean it's not there<> > ... it seems low dose radiation isn't a quack remedy despite what others may > say. I wouldn't go that far, but rock samples that deliver less than the legal limit of 5 rem per year whole body are probably not going to hurt you. OTOH, how do you know how much radiation you get from a rock? Madame Curie died of bone cancer from processing rock that contained radium. If you get a nuclear procedure done, then you ARE in the cumulative part of the curve, which means a few extra rem on top of that WILL increase your risk. I would also not recommend having rocks around containing thorium, radium, or uranium. These have long decay chains, which means they are quite hazardous taken internally. There is no hormesis if you get it on your hands and later ingest it. Finally, if you buy enough rock with enough radioactivity in it, you will need a license. Chuck ------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2010 Report Share Posted February 22, 2010 Roni, You wrote: > ... They advised that before you buy a > particular piece of granite for your countertop you check it with a > geiger counter. Excellent idea. > > Radiation is nothing to fool with and can show up in a number of places. Especially the kind that is in granite. You don't want thorium and trans-uranics around food preparation. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2010 Report Share Posted February 22, 2010 That is precisely what it is. One of the most difficult things about this list is dealing with people without whatever it takes to recognize such an elementary fact. .. .. > Trish wrote: > > ... it seems low dose radiation isn't a quack remedy despite what > others may > > say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2010 Report Share Posted February 22, 2010 , Chuck mentioned hormesis and Chuck Wrote: " Studies have shown that doses up to about 10 rem/year whole body actually extend life. The safety standard for radiation workers is 5 rem/year, just to be safe. The life extending effect is called hormesis. It is still a bit controversial. Just think of dental X-rays as " vitamins. " " Hormesis The effects of microdoses have been known for a long time, and there are a number of examples that support the idea that very diluted concentrations of a substance will have a measurable and sometimes profound effect. Scientists call this phenomenon: hormesis. http://www.holisticonline.com/homeopathy/homeo_how_it_works.htm It seems that Chuck saying microdoses are helpful is ok, but a link that backs up what Chuck has asserted is quack? Have I missed something here ? > > > ... it seems low dose radiation isn't a quack remedy despite what > > others may > > > say. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2010 Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 Trish, You wrote: > > > It seems that Chuck saying microdoses are helpful is ok, but a link that > backs up what Chuck has asserted is quack? ... Although hormesis is a barely measurable effect, no responsible practitioner would prescribe radiation without considering other risks. Radiation therapy typically delivers hundreds of rem to a tumor, but this is not without risks of collateral damage. The problem with a hormesis level exposure, is that we have no way to guarantee that someone is not getting radiation exposure somewhere else, which would make the treatment hazardous rather than therapeutic. For years people with arthritis have been sitting in abandoned mines breathing radon. Evidently it helps with the pain, but the harm could be much worse. Because of regulatory limits, I suspect the levels being offered in the therapeutic rocks are much lower than would produce either risk or benefit. That is pretty quackish. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2010 Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 Yes, you missed quite a bit. Chuck is discussing " radiation hormesis " in which there is some support for benefits from a level of radiation [micro doses?] slightly higher than background levels; but I believe he said it's controversal. Nonetheless it's solid science backed by solid theory. The homeopathy link included deals with micro doses [hormesis???] of the active[?] ingredients of homeopathic preparations and have nothing to do with radiation. The site is quackery, not sciece. You might note that once you allow magic you can exclude nothing. The original post [i think] was about the probable value of buying rocks with low level radiation for medical purposes. If that's not what you have reference to then please delete the balance of this message and send a quote of both sides of the conversation to which you would like a reply. If you are in fact asking why I say buying rocks with some level of radiation for medical purposes is quackery then this is my response: **Buying a rock or rocks with an indeterminant quantity of an undetermined type of radiation for medical purposes is pure quackery. It would be kind of like taking a medicine when you don't know what it is or how much you're taking. To have the beneficial effects Chuck mentioned you would have to have some way to determine the type and quantity of radiation from the rocks; my bet is you don't. In addition you would need to know how much you've already had in whatever year you choose to work in [the present one?] and then estimate how much you're likely to receive from all other sources for the balance of the year. For some of this you'll simply have to guess; and basing medication upon guesses if you don't have to isn't recommended. Now, once you have a number you're comfortable with you would have to determine exactly how you're going to mangae to expose yourself to precisely that much radiation from your rocks and neither more nor less. Chuck could probably handle all of the above; I couldn't. For me and you it would be an exercise in quackery; you'll have to ask Chuck whether he would consider buying a few of your radioactive rocks for the potential benefit he discusses. My bet is the radioactivity in the rocks is so low it won't really matter one way or another. It's just a way to separate a number of people from their money. Again: If your message refers to something else, please delete this and send the messages [both sides] that you would like a reply to. .. .. > > Posted by: " Trish " fielddot@... > <mailto:fielddot@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Radiation%20vs%2E%20aluminum> > trishruk <trishruk> > > > Mon Feb 22, 2010 5:18 am (PST) > > > > > > , Chuck mentioned hormesis and > > Chuck Wrote: " Studies have shown that doses up to about 10 rem/year > whole body actually extend life. The safety standard for radiation > workers is 5 rem/year, just to be safe. The life extending effect is > called hormesis. > > It is still a bit controversial. Just think of dental X-rays as > " vitamins. " " > > Hormesis > > The effects of microdoses have been known for a long time, and there > are a number of examples that support the idea that very diluted > concentrations of a substance will have a measurable and sometimes > profound effect. Scientists call this phenomenon: hormesis. > > http://www.holisticonline.com/homeopathy/homeo_how_it_works.htm > <http://www.holisticonline.com/homeopathy/homeo_how_it_works.htm> > > It seems that Chuck saying microdoses are helpful is ok, but a link > that backs up what Chuck has asserted is quack? Have I missed > something here ? > > > > > > ... it seems low dose radiation isn't a quack remedy despite what > > > others may > > > > say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2010 Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 http://www.holisticonline.com/homeopathy/homeo_how_it_works.htm Hormesis The effects of microdoses have been known for a long time, and there are a number of examples that support the idea that very diluted concentrations of a substance will have a measurable and sometimes profound effect. Scientists call this phenomenon: hormesis. Scientists from Michigan State University have shown how hormesis work in nature. They used microdoses of a fertilizer to stimulate crop production. In a dose equivalent to a 9x dilution, the fertilizer increased tomato yield by 30 percent, carrots were 21 percent bigger, and corn yield increased by 25 percent. Our own bodies secrete minute amounts of hormones that have powerful effects. Thyroid hormone is present in our blood at only 1 part per 10 billion-yet this is enough to regulate the rate of our entire metabolism. Many animal studies show that low doses of some substances elicit a beneficial response while high doses are harmful. This phenomenon has been documented to occur with radiation, antibiotics, and heavy metals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2010 Report Share Posted February 24, 2010 Will you please tell me if the scientists used 10 lbs of a product [with fertilizer as the " active ingredient " ] diluted by the 9X mentioned how many pounds of actual fertilizer was applied to the plants in the experiment? Anyway the site is hokum. Here's a pretty good clue: " Homeopathic remedies are believed to work in the spiritual plane as opposed to the physical plane as we are used to think and measure. " Essentially it's magic; not physics. To quote someone [me]: " Once you accept magic you can exclude nothing " . Not that I originated it, of course. In any of the homeopathic " medicines " that are supposedly the most potent [which means they are the most diluted] the process known to scientists as " hormesis " has no application whatsoever. In hormesis whatever product is under discussion [toxic?] is used in small but easily determined quantities; in homeopathy the " high potency " " medicine " will contain not one single molecule of the " active " ingredient. Since hormesis requires an actual [small] dose of the toxin [or whatever] and high potency homeopathy has not even one molecule the term hormesis is misapplied. There's quite a bit of science mentioned on the page. Most of it mutilated beyond recognition to anyone vaguely knowledgeable about science. Thanks, .. .. > > Posted by: " Trish " fielddot@... > <mailto:fielddot@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Radiation%20vs%2E%20aluminum> > trishruk <trishruk> > > > Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:21 am (PST) > > > > > > http://www.holisticonline.com/homeopathy/homeo_how_it_works.htm > <http://www.holisticonline.com/homeopathy/homeo_how_it_works.htm> > > Hormesis > > The effects of microdoses have been known for a long time, and there > are a number of examples that support the idea that very diluted > concentrations of a substance will have a measurable and sometimes > profound effect. Scientists call this phenomenon: hormesis. > > Scientists from Michigan State University have shown how hormesis work > in nature. They used microdoses of a fertilizer to stimulate crop > production. In a dose equivalent to a 9x dilution, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2010 Report Share Posted February 24, 2010 >Essentially it's magic; not physics. To quote someone [me]: " Once you accept magic you can exclude nothing " . Not that I originated it, of course. My definitoin of " Magic " is that there are many things in this life that work very well but we don't yet understand how. Discoveries are continually being made about the world we live in. Theoretical physics is a facinating subject. >Since hormesis requires an actual [small] dose of the toxin [or whatever] and high potency homeopathy has not even one molecule the term hormesis is misapplied. To further enlighten yourself , you might want to check out nosodes. Before she left this group, I believe Beverley mentioned vaccinations but in your usual unpleasant manner you just slammed her down. She left the group because of your manner. http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/nosodes.htm " Homeopathic remedies are believed to work in the spiritual plane as opposed to the physical plane as we are used to think and measure. " Essentially it's magic; not physics. To quote someone [me]: " Once you accept magic you can exclude nothing " . Not that I originated it, of course. > > In any of the homeopathic " medicines " that are supposedly the most > potent [which means they are the most diluted] the process known to scientists as " hormesis " has no application whatsoever. In hormesis whatever product is under discussion [toxic?] is used in small but easily determined quantities; in homeopathy the " high potency " " medicine " will contain not one single molecule of the " active " ingredient. Since hormesis requires an actual [small] dose of the toxin [or whatever] and high potency homeopathy has not even one molecule the term hormesis is misapplied. > Thanks, > > > Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:21 am (PST) > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.holisticonline.com/homeopathy/homeo_how_it_works.htm > > <http://www.holisticonline.com/homeopathy/homeo_how_it_works.htm> > > > > Hormesis > > > > The effects of microdoses have been known for a long time, and there > > are a number of examples that support the idea that very diluted > > concentrations of a substance will have a measurable and sometimes > > profound effect. Scientists call this phenomenon: hormesis. > > > > Scientists from Michigan State University have shown how hormesis work > > in nature. They used microdoses of a fertilizer to stimulate crop > > production. In a dose equivalent to a 9x dilution, > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2010 Report Share Posted February 24, 2010 You still don't get it. You slammed Abbey as being a drunk and druggie; that's an ad hominem. If I slammed Beverly that would be an ad hominem. If I point out that some fact she presents is not correct and why that is not an ad hominem. She suggested that there were significant similarities between vaccinations and homeopathic remedies. I pointed out why that belief is not reasonable. .. .. > > Posted by: " Trish " fielddot@... > <mailto:fielddot@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Radiation%20vs%2E%20aluminum> > trishruk <trishruk> > > > Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:56 am (PST) > > > > > > >Essentially it's magic; not physics. To quote someone [me]: " Once you > accept magic you can exclude nothing " . Not that I originated it, of > course. > > My definitoin of " Magic " is that there are many things in this life > that work very well but we don't yet understand how. Discoveries are > continually being made about the world we live in. Theoretical physics > is a facinating subject. > > >Since hormesis requires an actual [small] dose of the toxin [or > whatever] and high potency homeopathy has not even one molecule the > term hormesis is misapplied. > > To further enlighten yourself , you might want to check out > nosodes. Before she left this group, I believe Beverley mentioned > vaccinations but in your usual unpleasant manner you just slammed her > down. She left the group because of your manner. > > http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/nosodes.htm > <http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/nosodes.htm> > > > > " Homeopathic remedies are believed to work in the spiritual plane as > opposed to the physical plane as we are used to think and measure. " > Essentially it's magic; not physics. To quote someone [me]: " Once you > accept magic you can exclude nothing " . Not that I originated it, of > course. > > > > In any of the homeopathic " medicines " that are supposedly the most > > potent [which means they are the most diluted] the process known to > scientists as " hormesis " has no application whatsoever. In hormesis > whatever product is under discussion [toxic?] is used in small but > easily determined quantities; in homeopathy the " high potency " > " medicine " will contain not one single molecule of the " active " > ingredient. Since hormesis requires an actual [small] dose of the > toxin [or whatever] and high potency homeopathy has not even one > molecule the term hormesis is misapplied. > > > Thanks, > > > > > Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:21 am (PST) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.holisticonline.com/homeopathy/homeo_how_it_works.htm > <http://www.holisticonline.com/homeopathy/homeo_how_it_works.htm> > > > <http://www.holisticonline.com/homeopathy/homeo_how_it_works.htm > <http://www.holisticonline.com/homeopathy/homeo_how_it_works.htm>> > > > > > > Hormesis > > > > > > The effects of microdoses have been known for a long time, and there > > > are a number of examples that support the idea that very diluted > > > concentrations of a substance will have a measurable and sometimes > > > profound effect. Scientists call this phenomenon: hormesis. > > > > > > Scientists from Michigan State University have shown how hormesis > work > > > in nature. They used microdoses of a fertilizer to stimulate crop > > > production. In a dose equivalent to a 9x dilution, > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.