Re: Experience with other thyroid meds

February 20, 2010

Roni, the " thyroid extract " is simply the inert desiccated tissue from

which the T4 and T3 have been removed. For example: Take Armour and

remove the T4 and T3 and you will have " thyroid extract " . It won't have

any detectable effects on your health, whatever your doctor prescribes

or anything else [above chance or placebo]. Please don't confuse

" thyroid extract " with thyroxine or any other medical product. The

sellers don't claim any health benefit, although they hope you will be

foolish enough to think that's what they're saying.

..

> Posted by: " Roni Molin " matchermaam@...

>

<mailto:matchermaam@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Experience%20with%20%22other%22\

%20thyroid%20meds>

> matchermaam <matchermaam>

>

> Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:05 am (PST)

>

> All right, I can agree with boosting a person's ability to chemically

> function. A question comes to mind from what you said below. If the

> Nutri throid contains 130 mgs of thyroid extract, wouldn't that change

> the reactions of any thyroid hormones they are taking that have been

> rxd by their doctors?

February 20, 2010

Yes, Chuck explained all of this to me. It's not something I'd consider taking.

<>Roni

Immortality exists!

It's called knowledge!

Just because something isn't seen

doesn't mean it's not there<>

From: <res075oh@...>

Subject: Re: Experience with " other " thyroid meds

hypothyroidism

Date: Friday, February 19, 2010, 9:22 PM

Roni, the " thyroid extract " is simply the inert desiccated tissue from

which the T4 and T3 have been removed. For example: Take Armour and

remove the T4 and T3 and you will have " thyroid extract " . It won't have

any detectable effects on your health, whatever your doctor prescribes

or anything else [above chance or placebo]. Please don't confuse

" thyroid extract " with thyroxine or any other medical product. The

sellers don't claim any health benefit, although they hope you will be

foolish enough to think that's what they're saying.

..

> Posted by: " Roni Molin " matchermaam@...

>

<mailto:matchermaam@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Experience%20with%20%22other\

%22%20thyroid%20meds>

> matchermaam <matchermaam>

>

> Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:05 am (PST)

>

> All right, I can agree with boosting a person's ability to chemically

> function. A question comes to mind from what you said below. If the

> Nutri throid contains 130 mgs of thyroid extract, wouldn't that change

> the reactions of any thyroid hormones they are taking that have been

> rxd by their doctors?

------------------------------------

February 20, 2010

How rare do you eat your beef Roni...? Do you eat naturally raised beef (grass

fed) or grain fed?

Thanks.

Trish

>

> No wonder I always feel better after eating a beef meal. After reading all the

negative admonitions about beef, I thought I must be imagining things, but your

post shows me

> again that even if I don't know what's going on, my body does.

February 20, 2010

1/2 pound of beef is not 1 Kg ..at least not where I come from

Trish

> >

> > Chuck, then show me the science that there are higher levels of all the

> > thyroid hormones and calcitonin in an ordinary a beef meal than the

> > 130mg thyroid extract that is in Nutri Thyroid....

>

> Beef muscle tissue is assayed at 1.57 ng/ml for T3 and 66 ng/ml for T4.

>

> J Anim Sci 1981. 52:1437-1441:

> http://jas.fass.org/cgi/reprint/52/6/1437.pdf

>

> 1/2 pound of beef is about 1 kg. Then, you have about 1.6 mcg of T3 and

> 66 mcg of T4 in a modest dinner. The detectable limit set by the FDA for

> OTC sales is around 0.5 mcg for both T4 and T3. Thus, you get about

> three times the T3 and well over 100 times the T4 in a steak than in an

> OTC extract.

>

> The catch is that the steak must be eaten rare, as cooking destroys all

> the thyroid hormones. We have mentioned that before also.

>

> Calcitonin is a littler harder to nail down, but the circulating value

> is 6.5 picomole/L. I'll let you figure out how much is in the extract,

> since the manufacturers don't seem to want to publicize this.

>

> Chuck

>

February 21, 2010

Out of every hundred hypo patients there are a few who do not receive

relief from T4 alone. Out of million that would be a respectful [and

regretful] number. More below...

..

>

> Posted by: " SheilaT " sheilaturner@...

>

<mailto:sheilaturner@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Experience%20with%20%22oth\

er%22%20thyroid%20meds>

> campaigner77 <campaigner77>

>

> Fri Feb 19, 2010 4:24 am (PST)

>

> , when you talk about an " unfortunate few " , there are,

> actually, a large number of sufferers of the symptoms of hypothyroidism

> who are unable to regain their normal health on levothyroxine-

> only.

> Chuck quoted figures of those UK citizens being treated with synthetic

> T4, versus, natural thyroid extract in the UK within the NHS. They were

> the lucky one's who managed to get their NHS doctor to give them a

> prescription,but thousands of others don't show on such statistics

> because they are forced to buy their natural extract from Internet

> Pharmacies.

>

> You should read the paper " Consent: Customary Practice Versus

> Prudent Patient From The Perspective Of Mimics of Hypothyroidism " by

> Pritchard, US Researcher.

..

As long as you keep referring me to a quack ad for a quack product that

is so blatently obvious in its deceptiveness then I'm afraid your

recommendations on reading material carry little weight with me. You

have little to no capability to discriminate between probable fact and

probable fiction if that is an example of said discrimination.

February 21, 2010

I guess that last part is what's so sad to me. All of those

hundreds/thousands[?] of hypo patients and Sheila is determined that

they will not receive the information that would allow them to make

informed choices. Yet she ostensibly [and I believe in fact] wants to

" help " them...???

..

>

> Posted by: " Chuck B " gumboyaya@...

>

<mailto:gumboyaya@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Experience%20with%20%22other%22%20t\

hyroid%20meds>

> gumbo482001 <gumbo482001>

>

> Fri Feb 19, 2010 4:55 am (PST)

>

> ,

>

> You wrote:

> > ... you have basically very expensive [and lousy tasting] hamburger

> > with no medical benefits. The trace elements remaining are probably

> > less than in reasonably good hamburger. It's basically a product sold

> > by con artists to the ill informed. On Sheila's list you can't tell

> > anybody that.

>

> We actually ran the numbers just before visiting this issue on Sheila's

> list. There were indeed higher levels of all the thyroid hormones and

> calcitonin in an ordinary beef meal than in the recommended dose of

> dessicated gland supplements.

>

> And, you are correct that one could not say something like that on

> Sheila's list. It was too technical. However, it was quite accepted to

> recommend that people buy the stuff and tell them what wonders it would

> work. That was not technical. So, the result is that subscribers to that

> list only heard one side. The appearance was that there was no dissent,

> unless you were one of the handful of people on LABGAB.

>

> Chuck

February 21, 2010

Sheila, I think I see a problem with our communication. Please see below...

..

>

> Posted by: " SheilaT " sheilaturner@...

>

<mailto:sheilaturner@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Experience%20with%20%22oth\

er%22%20thyroid%20meds>

> campaigner77 <campaigner77>

>

> Fri Feb 19, 2010 6:08 am (PST)

>

> >

> > We actually ran the numbers just before visiting this issue on

> Sheila's

> > list. There were indeed higher levels of all the thyroid hormones and

> > calcitonin in an ordinary beef meal than in the recommended dose of

> > dessicated gland supplements.

>

> Chuck, then show me the science that there are higher levels of all the

> thyroid hormones and calcitonin in an ordinary a beef meal than the

> 130mg thyroid extract that is in Nutri Thyroid.

..

Here's the problem: You do not comprehend what is meant by " thyroid

extract " . You apparently seem to think it's some kind of medicine or at

least that it has medical properties. It is not/does not. What it is

is simply dried thyroid gland from which the T4 and T3 have been

removed. If you removed the T4 and T3 from Armour you would have

" thyroid extract " , and a very close copy of Nutri Thyroid. Every bit of

con artist boiler-plate ad copy on the Nutri Thyroid page could then be

applied directly to your new " thyroid extract " with no modification

whatsoever provided you added a tiny pinch of dried salivary gland.

..

> And, I am not talking

> about level of thyroxine, as this has been removed from the thyroid

> supplement in question.

>

> We do think about our members and know many do not want the main message

> board filling up with science they neither understand or need, so we

> opened a forum especially for those who both wanted and needed it.

> What's wrong with that. It works well. Rather than use it, you decided

> to resign.

..

What's wrong with that is that you can [and do] promote some quack

product and prevent anyone from pointing out that it's a quack product.

I suspect that's one reason Chuck left: He could not honestly be part

of such a deceptive undertaking. And it's one of the reasons I'm not so

bothered about being booted. After all, it was just a matter of time;

because you're not going to allow anyone to come on that list and

correct your lies with truth.

..

>

> Nutri Thyroid, whatever you believe, does work for a lot of people

> Chuck,

..

Only to the level of chance or placebo.

..

> [...]

> Sheila

> >

> > And, you are correct that one could not say something like that on

> > Sheila's list. It was too technical. However, it was quite accepted to

> > recommend that people buy the stuff and tell them what wonders it

> would

> > work. That was not technical. So, the result is that subscribers to

> that

> > list only heard one side. The appearance was that there was no

> dissent,

> > unless you were one of the handful of people on LABGAB.

> >

> > Chuck

> >

February 21, 2010

When [if ever] you finally figure out exactly what is meant by " natural

thyroid extract " then we hopefully can begin to communicate about the

product. As long as you remain in abysmal ignorance of same there's not

much chance.

Show me any reference anywhere to there being T3 in Nutri-Thyroid. You

can't. T2 and T1 are basically left over waste products of the T4/T3

utilization process IIRC; but I'm not too familiar with them. I'm not

aware of anyone selling T2 or T1 capsules; but I wouldn't be too

surprised. If you can sell Nutri-Thyroid you should be able to sell

chicken $#!t capsules.

..

>

> Posted by: " SheilaT " sheilaturner@...

>

<mailto:sheilaturner@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Experience%20with%20%22oth\

er%22%20thyroid%20meds>

> campaigner77 <campaigner77>

>

> Fri Feb 19, 2010 6:17 am (PST)

>

> > Not at all. He was (then and now) talking about " dessicated thyroid "

> > which has been denatured, so it can be sold otc. That is what was

> > recommended to people who obviously needed some form of thyroid

> hormone

> > replacement.

>

> Nature Throid has been denatured of thyroxine only in the same way as

> other thyroid supplements. You can check out the Nutri web site that

> was posted to this morning. It still contains 130mg of natural

> thyroid extract. As there is only T3, T2, T1 left, it's a natural

> assumption that this are still there.

>

> Sheila

February 21, 2010

The short answer is you can't. But Sheila hasn't figured out that

" thyroid extract " has no thyroid hormones at all in it at helpful

levels; she quotes " 130 mg thyroid extract " in each capsule as though it

were T4 or T3 or some other helpful product rather than just dried meat

from a thyroid gland.

..

>

> Posted by: " Roni Molin " matchermaam@...

>

<mailto:matchermaam@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Experience%20with%20%22other%22\

%20thyroid%20meds>

> matchermaam <matchermaam>

>

> Fri Feb 19, 2010 8:31 am (PST)

>

> I don't understand how a thyroid medication that doesn't contain

> thyroid hormone could work for someone with hypothyroid. The reason

> one is hypothyroid is because their body is not making thyroid

> hormones, or not enough of them.

>

> <>Roni

February 21, 2010

I suspect you'll never see such a message posted on your list, as it

contradicts much of what shows up there. More below...

..

>

> Posted by: " SheilaT " sheilaturner@...

>

<mailto:sheilaturner@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Experience%20with%20%22oth\

er%22%20thyroid%20meds>

> campaigner77 <campaigner77>

>

> Fri Feb 19, 2010 9:26 am (PST)

>

> Hi Roni - You are correct. There is no medication that will work for

> anybody who is suffering from hypothyroidism apart from one that

> contains thyroid hormones. However, there are some folk who's thyroid

> function can be boosted with supplements, such as one that is being

> discussed. NT does contain 130mgs of thyroid extract with other

> minerals, vitamins etc.

..

Medically " thyroid extract " has the same usefulness as " beef extract " .

Both will contain dried beef; neither has sufficient levels of thyroid

hormones to be helpful, nor do they have any demonstrated " support " for

the thyroid gland. Dried beef [whether from the thyroid gland or from a

T-bone steak] will have minerals, vitamins, etc. [and some levels of T4,

T3, which you didn't mention here]. But the Nutri-thyroid probably

costs $100 or several hundred per pound while the T-bone costs 1/10th

that or less. And the T-bone will taste much better than the

cardboard-like taste of the NT.

..

> What's getting forgotten in this discussion is

> that we are not claiming Nutri Thyroid should be used as a thyroid

> hormone replacement for those suffering hypothyroidism. It is

> recommended only to help give the thyroid gland the specific nutrients

> it needs.

..

And there is zero evidence to support how it does that.

..

> Such supplements are especially useful when a patient's

> thyroid gland function tests are within the reference range, yet they

> have symptoms and signs of hypothyroidism, and their doctor refuses them

> a diagnosis and therefore, no thyroid hormone replacement.

>

> Sheila

..

No credible evidence anywhere to support such a claim.

February 21, 2010

I am quite convinced that happens; if nothing else the anecdotal

evidence on this list is overwhelming. BUT: I think one of the reasons

it _does_ happen is that the percentage of patients with such problems

is so small that many doctors have never encountered such a thing. So

when they do they tend to doubt it. Just speculation on my part...

>

> Posted by: " Roni Molin " matchermaam@...

>

<mailto:matchermaam@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Experience%20with%20%22other%22\

%20thyroid%20meds>

> matchermaam <matchermaam>

>

> Fri Feb 19, 2010 7:52 pm (PST)

>

> Believe me, , I understand your position. But speaking from the

> point of view of a patient that didn't even know there was something

> wrong with the medication I was taking, the number of patients that

> have difficulty is much larger than suspected.

>

> When I was in my twenties I had three miscarriages, and not one doctor

> thought to see if I was hypothyroid, which I was. I was even on

> medication. Not one doctor tried to do anything to help me become

> pregnant and keep the baby without miscarrying. Since I had no idea

> that what was happening to me had anything to do with thyroid, I

> didn't even know to ask about it.

>

> If you don't really understand hypothyroidism, don't know anything

> about the test results and what they mean, and don't even know enough

> to ask for them, your undertreatment can go on for years, damaging

> other organs in your body. It's sort of like a dirty little secret.

>

> <>Roni

February 21, 2010

Sheila, I have no particular ax to grind with you. I have not been on your list

and I have not had any confrontation with you. I am simply going by what you

say.

The fact that you are telling your list members that a product without T4 or T3

is going to help them with hypothyroidism is incredible. Hypothyroidism is a

serious illness, and without the proper hormones to replace what their body is

not making or absorbing they will die. How can you, in good conscience tell

these people that they will get better with something that could not possibly

make them better because it's not what their bodies need?

<>Roni

Immortality exists!

It's called knowledge!

Just because something isn't seen

doesn't mean it's not there<>

From: <res075oh@...>

Subject: Re: Experience with " other " thyroid meds

hypothyroidism

Date: Saturday, February 20, 2010, 6:33 PM

Sheila, I think I see a problem with our communication. Please see below...

..

>

> Posted by: " SheilaT " sheilaturner@...

>

<mailto:sheilaturner@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Experience%20with%20%22\

other%22%20thyroid%20meds>