Guest guest Posted January 12, 2010 Report Share Posted January 12, 2010 The settlers basically came here to have religious freedom and conduct their lives as they saw fit. It was the American Revolution that rejected England based on taxation without representation. Roni <>Just because something isn't seen doesn't mean it's not there<> From: <res075oh@...> Subject: Re: Fw: Re:Rationing hypothyroidism Date: Tuesday, January 12, 2010, 1:13 PM Given that I've never watched Fox news in my life why do you think I " adore " them??? I must admit that anything that gives the liberals so much heartburn has a certain appeal to me though. Anyway: I don't understand the logic of comparing the opinions of people as to the availability of affordable health care between a fee for service economy and one where it is " free " . It to me seems kind of like asking someone how please they are with the cost of apples when they are $1 each and asking the same question of those where they are " free " . People who do not know how much " free " really costs them or who are not among the group paying the cost are likely to prefer " free " apples or health care. .. .. > > Posted by: " Roni Molin " matchermaam@... > <mailto:matchermaam@ com?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Fw%3A%20%5Bhypothyroidism%5D%20Re%3ARationing> > matchermaam <matchermaam> > > > Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:39 am (PST) > > > > Here's some info if you put " satisfaction with healthare in UK " into > google. This includes info from your adored FOX NEWS and a GALLUP POLL. > > http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,136990,00.html > <http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,136990,00.html> > > http://www.gallup com/poll/8056/healthcare-system-ratings-us-great-britain-canada.aspx > <http://www.gallup com/poll/8056/healthcare-system-ratings-us-great-britain-canada.aspx> > > > > Roni ------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2010 Report Share Posted January 12, 2010 http://www.gallup.com/poll/125030/Healthcare-Bill-Support-Ticks-Up-Public-Divide\ d.aspx  More people support the bill now than before, 49% for to 46% against. Roni <>Just because something isn't seen doesn't mean it's not there<> From: <res075oh@...> Subject: Re: Fw: Re:Rationing hypothyroidism Date: Tuesday, January 12, 2010, 11:24 AM Nancie, you're truly living in a dream world. Try putting " problems with UK healthcare system " into Google and read just a few of the first hits. It puts the lie to everything you say about the healthcare system there. There are over 12 million hits. But I know you won't dare; you're not going to look at any evidence that contradicts your opinions. You're going to ignore the vast quantity of data that expresses a different viewpoint that contradicts yours. Here's just one of the 12 million hits: .. .. > > >   *UK* Health Care *System* In Need of Repair > > by Carty, MD, MSPH > 01-26-2008 > > >     Inadequate facilities, poor quality medical and nursing care in >     several British hospitals cause deaths from intestinal infections. > > Imagine that you are seriously, even critically ill. You are in a > dirty, rundown, understaffed hospital. The nurses, doctors, and other > employees are rude, inattentive, and incompetent, and you can’t get > out. What could be more terrifying? > > Such, apparently, was the nightmarish predicament of a number of > patients with serious intestinal infections in a group of British > hospitals between 2004 and 2006. An October 2007 report by the > government’s Commission for *Healthcare* Audit and Inspection has > exposed a number of deficiencies in the UK’s rickety government-run > health care *system*, the National Health Service (NHS). The report > showed that outbreaks of Clostridium difficile (C. diff.) intestinal > infections in several NHS hospitals: Kent Hospital, Sussex Hospital, > and Maidstone Hospital, directly caused at least 90 deaths between > 2004 and 2006 and contributed to many more. C. diff. is a type of > bacterium which can cause serious intestinal infections, often after > the administration of antibiotics. > > The report documented poor quality medical and nursing care and > inadequate infection control measures. Doctors made mistakes in > antibiotic prescribing, fluid and nutrition management, and in many > other aspects of care. > > Nurses frequently did not wash their hands, wear gloves and gowns, > clean mattresses, empty and clean commodes, feed patients, or give > patients their medications. Patients who asked for help in going to > the toilet were often told to “go in the bed,†then left to lie in > their own urine and stool for long periods. Patients and family > members described the care as “despicable,†“sickening,†and “appalling,†> > Drity sink in clean utility room in UK hospital > > A sink in the " clean " utility room > > The NHS hospitals involved were old, dirty, and rundown. Although > patients with C. diff. infection should be put in single rooms to > prevent transmission of the infection to other patients, this was > usually impossible. Only 10% of the hospitals’ beds were in single > rooms. Patients were usually put in beds jammed together in long rows > in large rooms. One hospital had only one sink for every 6 beds, and > the other two hospitals had one sink for every 12 beds. > > >     Empty apologies, empty promises. > > The public release of the report was followed by the usual cynical > apologies and promises of reform and “zero tolerance.†In addition to > the C. diff. outbreaks at Kent, Sussex, and Maidstone hospitals, a > similar outbreak at another NHS hospital, Stoke Mandeville Hospital, > caused 33 deaths between 2003 and 2005. > > Beds jammed together in a UK hospital contributed to spread of infection > > Patients were usually put in beds jammed together in long rows in > large rooms > > >     *UK* health care *system* needs a makeover. > > How did the *UK* end up with such a dysfunctional health care > *system*? The English are prosperous, intelligent, even brilliant > people. One of my medical school professors, originally from the *UK*, > published the first account of a carotid endarterectomy, the operation > to clean out the arteries in the neck to prevent strokes. He was > famous as a surgeon, professor, and writer and operated on Winston > Churchill and the King of Kuwait. > > >     Inadequate funding, poor management. > > Although government mismanagement is without question part of the > problem, the *UK* spends much less on health care than the US. Still, > the British government nationalized the health care *system* in 1948 > and has had over fifty years to work the kinks out of the *system*. > > The British people deserve better. > .. .. That's what you want for us??? .. .. > >     Posted by: " nancie barnett " deifspirit@... >     <mailto:deifspirit@msn com?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Fw%3A%20%5Bhypothyroidism%5D%20Re%3ARationing> >     aspenfairy1 <aspenfairy1> > > >      Mon Jan 11, 2010 11:26 pm (PST) > > > > the numbers are from Think Tanks and from policy centers as in RAND; > UCLA Public Health and from Gerard from Hopkins > Bloomberg School of Public Health. So are you calling Prof. 's > research and data all a lie?? > The numbers are factual. They also only include US Citizens. > I bet if I asked all those AMERICANS that are not insured if they > wanted health insurance, they would scream YES! But, the fact is that > many of them can't get it because they either have a pre-existing > condition or they can't financially afford the premiums because either > they are unemployed; POOR; Underemployed; or their employer can't > afford the premiums or IF they are lucky enough to have medical insurx > in the first place- have huge premiums that keep going up. > Don't put YOUR words into my mouth. I never stated capitalism is wrong > and I agree that health insurance SHOULD be portable. I think if you > can get a better price on insurx in another state then you should be > able to buy it. BUT, the private insurance companies don't allow that. > that is part of the problem. That is what the health care reform would > fix. > > As far as universal healthcare in the UK, Europe, Australia and Canada > goes. You are Incorrect because I have family all over the globe and > they ALL love their universal healthcare! The US already has rationing > and waiting lists. You can NOT tell me that if you wanted to have an > elective surgery tomorrow or even this week that your insurance would > allow you. That only exists with those " Cadillac plans " . All other > medical insurx plans have pre-authorization processes that takes > weeks. I know because I deal with that ALL THE TIME. > My friend Malcolm is a surgeon and everyone of his patients' insurance > companies ALL have a Pre-authorization process that his office has to > work through and unless it is emergency surgery, he can not operate > right away. ERGO, there is a waiting period. > > I don't need to Google UK healthcare, because I know about it first > hand and It was Great! Never got a bill. And ZERO waiting! ------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2010 Report Share Posted January 12, 2010 I posted it as an illustration of what the people in England think about their healthcare. Isn't that a valid point of view to you? You post things saying things about what Americans think of this or that or healthcare over here, so I it seems reasonable that we could look at what the English think about their healthcare. Roni <>Just because something isn't seen doesn't mean it's not there<> From: <res075oh@...> Subject: Re: Fw: Re:Rationing hypothyroidism Date: Tuesday, January 12, 2010, 11:24 AM Nancie, you're truly living in a dream world. Try putting " problems with UK healthcare system " into Google and read just a few of the first hits. It puts the lie to everything you say about the healthcare system there. There are over 12 million hits. But I know you won't dare; you're not going to look at any evidence that contradicts your opinions. You're going to ignore the vast quantity of data that expresses a different viewpoint that contradicts yours. Here's just one of the 12 million hits: .. .. > > >   *UK* Health Care *System* In Need of Repair > > by Carty, MD, MSPH > 01-26-2008 > > >     Inadequate facilities, poor quality medical and nursing care in >     several British hospitals cause deaths from intestinal infections. > > Imagine that you are seriously, even critically ill. You are in a > dirty, rundown, understaffed hospital. The nurses, doctors, and other > employees are rude, inattentive, and incompetent, and you can’t get > out. What could be more terrifying? > > Such, apparently, was the nightmarish predicament of a number of > patients with serious intestinal infections in a group of British > hospitals between 2004 and 2006. An October 2007 report by the > government’s Commission for *Healthcare* Audit and Inspection has > exposed a number of deficiencies in the UK’s rickety government-run > health care *system*, the National Health Service (NHS). The report > showed that outbreaks of Clostridium difficile (C. diff.) intestinal > infections in several NHS hospitals: Kent Hospital, Sussex Hospital, > and Maidstone Hospital, directly caused at least 90 deaths between > 2004 and 2006 and contributed to many more. C. diff. is a type of > bacterium which can cause serious intestinal infections, often after > the administration of antibiotics. > > The report documented poor quality medical and nursing care and > inadequate infection control measures. Doctors made mistakes in > antibiotic prescribing, fluid and nutrition management, and in many > other aspects of care. > > Nurses frequently did not wash their hands, wear gloves and gowns, > clean mattresses, empty and clean commodes, feed patients, or give > patients their medications. Patients who asked for help in going to > the toilet were often told to “go in the bed,†then left to lie in > their own urine and stool for long periods. Patients and family > members described the care as “despicable,†“sickening,†and “appalling,†> > Drity sink in clean utility room in UK hospital > > A sink in the " clean " utility room > > The NHS hospitals involved were old, dirty, and rundown. Although > patients with C. diff. infection should be put in single rooms to > prevent transmission of the infection to other patients, this was > usually impossible. Only 10% of the hospitals’ beds were in single > rooms. Patients were usually put in beds jammed together in long rows > in large rooms. One hospital had only one sink for every 6 beds, and > the other two hospitals had one sink for every 12 beds. > > >     Empty apologies, empty promises. > > The public release of the report was followed by the usual cynical > apologies and promises of reform and “zero tolerance.†In addition to > the C. diff. outbreaks at Kent, Sussex, and Maidstone hospitals, a > similar outbreak at another NHS hospital, Stoke Mandeville Hospital, > caused 33 deaths between 2003 and 2005. > > Beds jammed together in a UK hospital contributed to spread of infection > > Patients were usually put in beds jammed together in long rows in > large rooms > > >     *UK* health care *system* needs a makeover. > > How did the *UK* end up with such a dysfunctional health care > *system*? The English are prosperous, intelligent, even brilliant > people. One of my medical school professors, originally from the *UK*, > published the first account of a carotid endarterectomy, the operation > to clean out the arteries in the neck to prevent strokes. He was > famous as a surgeon, professor, and writer and operated on Winston > Churchill and the King of Kuwait. > > >     Inadequate funding, poor management. > > Although government mismanagement is without question part of the > problem, the *UK* spends much less on health care than the US. Still, > the British government nationalized the health care *system* in 1948 > and has had over fifty years to work the kinks out of the *system*. > > The British people deserve better. > .. .. That's what you want for us??? .. .. > >     Posted by: " nancie barnett " deifspirit@... >     <mailto:deifspirit@msn com?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Fw%3A%20%5Bhypothyroidism%5D%20Re%3ARationing> >     aspenfairy1 <aspenfairy1> > > >      Mon Jan 11, 2010 11:26 pm (PST) > > > > the numbers are from Think Tanks and from policy centers as in RAND; > UCLA Public Health and from Gerard from Hopkins > Bloomberg School of Public Health. So are you calling Prof. 's > research and data all a lie?? > The numbers are factual. They also only include US Citizens. > I bet if I asked all those AMERICANS that are not insured if they > wanted health insurance, they would scream YES! But, the fact is that > many of them can't get it because they either have a pre-existing > condition or they can't financially afford the premiums because either > they are unemployed; POOR; Underemployed; or their employer can't > afford the premiums or IF they are lucky enough to have medical insurx > in the first place- have huge premiums that keep going up. > Don't put YOUR words into my mouth. I never stated capitalism is wrong > and I agree that health insurance SHOULD be portable. I think if you > can get a better price on insurx in another state then you should be > able to buy it. BUT, the private insurance companies don't allow that. > that is part of the problem. That is what the health care reform would > fix. > > As far as universal healthcare in the UK, Europe, Australia and Canada > goes. You are Incorrect because I have family all over the globe and > they ALL love their universal healthcare! The US already has rationing > and waiting lists. You can NOT tell me that if you wanted to have an > elective surgery tomorrow or even this week that your insurance would > allow you. That only exists with those " Cadillac plans " . All other > medical insurx plans have pre-authorization processes that takes > weeks. I know because I deal with that ALL THE TIME. > My friend Malcolm is a surgeon and everyone of his patients' insurance > companies ALL have a Pre-authorization process that his office has to > work through and unless it is emergency surgery, he can not operate > right away. ERGO, there is a waiting period. > > I don't need to Google UK healthcare, because I know about it first > hand and It was Great! Never got a bill. And ZERO waiting! ------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2010 Report Share Posted January 12, 2010 This is historical revisionism. The settlers came here for a variety of reasons: 1) religious freedom of expression, 2) the opportunity to escape from the class-based systems of monarchies, 3) the opportunity to escape grinding urban poverty, 4) to start over after criminal emprisonment which was often a stolen loaf of bread, etc.... There is nothing in our constitution forbidding a single-payer health system. -- >You are missing the Point because that was not the way our country was >intended to be run. The settlers came here to get away from big govt. So >comparing the US to other big govt companies isn't fair. We are suppose to >follow our constitution not the structure of other countries. >CW ~~~ There is no way to peace; peace is the way ~~~~ --A.J. Muste Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2010 Report Share Posted January 12, 2010 Such a poll is not an adequate response to polls showing that by far the majority of people in Canada and the UK support their health care system and would NEVER want to live under our system. -- At 03:53 PM 1/12/2010, you wrote: > is breaking the link. This isn't the first time this has happened. >Just go to gallup.com and click on healthcare and you will get all the >articles on healthcare. The one I posted a link to was about AMerican's not >backing the Healthcare reform ~~~ There is no way to peace; peace is the way ~~~~ --A.J. Muste Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2010 Report Share Posted January 13, 2010 No you are incorrect. the numbers are 45 million people who have no health insurance. Why don't YOU Google it. From: Crystal Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 8:19 AM hypothyroidism Subject: Re: Fw: Re:Rationing Actually, more than half of the people without health insurance make 50,000 or more a year. Again, private insurance needs help and reformation, but allowing govt control is a big big mistake. If we can't learn from other countries thenwe deserve what we get. There is a reason the majority of Americans don't want Obama care to pass. A lot of law makers WILL lose their seats if this thing passes. I suggest you quit watching msnbc to get your news. If you mean a breast augmentation for elective surgery, then no my insurance will not pay it, but what insurance will? The majority of people in those countries do not like their healthcare. I honestly do not believe you when you tell me how wonderful it is because I know otherwise. More man run govt is never good. I don't care who the president is. Teddy Roosevelt was one of the worst presidents in history, yet he was Republican. He was a progressive, just like Obama, Clinton and McCain are. At least now with our current helathcare, they don't tell you what you can eat. I guarantee you that if we have govt run HC, they will tell us to put our ice cream away! I m not going to keep arguing with your views, it's a waste of time as I'm sure you think the same. Only time will tell. I said the same thing about Obama. I kinda hoped he would get voted in just so people could see hoe bad things are going to get. I kinda feel like we are slipping into a Orwell novel. Creepy! CW -- Re: Re:Rationing Nancie, You wrote about the AMA position: > > here is their opinion and support stance: > http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/health-system-reform/bulletin/23dec2009 shtml > <http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/health-system-reform/bulletin/23dec2009 shtml> Please note that this refers to the Senate bill. All of our discussion to this point was about the house bill. According to this statement, support of a conference agreement is contingent on getting rid of exactly those parts to which I objected. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2010 Report Share Posted January 13, 2010 I am sorry but YOU are the one who is living in a republican twisted world of LIES and misrepresentations of the truth. I have said REPEATEDLY that I HAVE FAMILY LIVING ABROAD WHO LOVE THEIR HEALTHCARE AND WOULD NEVER TRADE THEIR HEALTHCARE SYSTEM FOR THE BULL SHIT SYSTEM THAT WE HAVE HERE IN THE USA. I THINK YOU NEED TO GO LIVE THERE FOR A FEW YEARS AND ALSO LIVE IN CONTINENTAL EUROPE AND SEE THE BLOODY TRUTH INSTEAD OF RELYING ON RIGHT WING REPUBS WHO HAVE AN ADGENDA OF KEEPING THEMSELVES WEALTHY FROM TAKING MONEY FORM HEALTH INSURANCE COMPANIES. NOT EVERYTHING ON GOOGLE IS THE REALITY OR FACTUAL. YOU HAVE TO WEED IT OUT, JAMES. I KNOW YOU ARE SMARTER THAN THAT. YOU SHOULD KNOW BETTER. MY FAMILY AND I HAVE EXPERIENCED UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE ACROSS THE GLOBE AND ALL OF IT WAS GOOD, EVEN CANADA AND MEXICO. NO WAITING LINES; NO EXCESSIVE WAITING PERIODS THAT ARE LONGER THAN WHAT OURS ARE ALREADY. WE NEVER GOT A BILL NOT ONCE EVEN THOUGH WE WERE NOT A CITIZEN OF THEIR COUNTRY. THE MEDICINE WAS THE SAME AS WE WOULD GET HERE- FROM THE SAME PHARMACEUTICAL COMPANIES. YOU AND I WILL NEVER AGREE ON THIS ISSUE- YOU ARE A CONSERVATIVE REPUBLICAN [ HOPEFULLY NOT A RIGHT WINGER] AND I AM A LEFT WING LIBERAL DEMOCRAT. I HAVE SEEN THE TRUTH ABOUT UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE ON A GLOBAL LEVEL AND APPARENTLY YOU HAVEN'T. PLAIN AND SIMPLE. -------------------------------------------------- From: " " <res075oh@...> Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 11:24 AM <hypothyroidism > Subject: Re: Fw: Re:Rationing > Nancie, you're truly living in a dream world. Try putting " problems with > UK healthcare system " into Google and read just a few of the first hits. > It puts the lie to everything you say about the healthcare system there. > There are over 12 million hits. > > But I know you won't dare; you're not going to look at any evidence that > contradicts your opinions. You're going to ignore the vast quantity of > data that expresses a different viewpoint that contradicts yours. > > Here's just one of the 12 million hits: > . > . >> >> >> *UK* Health Care *System* In Need of Repair >> >> by Carty, MD, MSPH >> 01-26-2008 >> >> >> Inadequate facilities, poor quality medical and nursing care in >> several British hospitals cause deaths from intestinal infections. >> >> Imagine that you are seriously, even critically ill. You are in a >> dirty, rundown, understaffed hospital. The nurses, doctors, and other >> employees are rude, inattentive, and incompetent, and you can’t get >> out. What could be more terrifying? >> >> Such, apparently, was the nightmarish predicament of a number of >> patients with serious intestinal infections in a group of British >> hospitals between 2004 and 2006. An October 2007 report by the >> government’s Commission for *Healthcare* Audit and Inspection has >> exposed a number of deficiencies in the UK’s rickety government-run >> health care *system*, the National Health Service (NHS). The report >> showed that outbreaks of Clostridium difficile (C. diff.) intestinal >> infections in several NHS hospitals: Kent Hospital, Sussex Hospital, >> and Maidstone Hospital, directly caused at least 90 deaths between >> 2004 and 2006 and contributed to many more. C. diff. is a type of >> bacterium which can cause serious intestinal infections, often after >> the administration of antibiotics. >> >> The report documented poor quality medical and nursing care and >> inadequate infection control measures. Doctors made mistakes in >> antibiotic prescribing, fluid and nutrition management, and in many >> other aspects of care. >> >> Nurses frequently did not wash their hands, wear gloves and gowns, >> clean mattresses, empty and clean commodes, feed patients, or give >> patients their medications. Patients who asked for help in going to >> the toilet were often told to “go in the bed,” then left to lie in >> their own urine and stool for long periods. Patients and family >> members described the care as “despicable,” “sickening,” and “appalling,” >> >> Drity sink in clean utility room in UK hospital >> >> A sink in the " clean " utility room >> >> The NHS hospitals involved were old, dirty, and rundown. Although >> patients with C. diff. infection should be put in single rooms to >> prevent transmission of the infection to other patients, this was >> usually impossible. Only 10% of the hospitals’ beds were in single >> rooms. Patients were usually put in beds jammed together in long rows >> in large rooms. One hospital had only one sink for every 6 beds, and >> the other two hospitals had one sink for every 12 beds. >> >> >> Empty apologies, empty promises. >> >> The public release of the report was followed by the usual cynical >> apologies and promises of reform and “zero tolerance.” In addition to >> the C. diff. outbreaks at Kent, Sussex, and Maidstone hospitals, a >> similar outbreak at another NHS hospital, Stoke Mandeville Hospital, >> caused 33 deaths between 2003 and 2005. >> >> Beds jammed together in a UK hospital contributed to spread of infection >> >> Patients were usually put in beds jammed together in long rows in >> large rooms >> >> >> *UK* health care *system* needs a makeover. >> >> How did the *UK* end up with such a dysfunctional health care >> *system*? The English are prosperous, intelligent, even brilliant >> people. One of my medical school professors, originally from the *UK*, >> published the first account of a carotid endarterectomy, the operation >> to clean out the arteries in the neck to prevent strokes. He was >> famous as a surgeon, professor, and writer and operated on Winston >> Churchill and the King of Kuwait. >> >> >> Inadequate funding, poor management. >> >> Although government mismanagement is without question part of the >> problem, the *UK* spends much less on health care than the US. Still, >> the British government nationalized the health care *system* in 1948 >> and has had over fifty years to work the kinks out of the *system*. >> >> The British people deserve better. >> > . > . > That's what you want for us??? > > > > . > . > >> >> Posted by: " nancie barnett " deifspirit@... >> >> <mailto:deifspirit@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Fw%3A%20%5Bhypothyroidism%5D%20Re%\ 3ARationing> >> aspenfairy1 <aspenfairy1> >> >> >> Mon Jan 11, 2010 11:26 pm (PST) >> >> >> >> the numbers are from Think Tanks and from policy centers as in RAND; >> UCLA Public Health and from Gerard from Hopkins >> Bloomberg School of Public Health. So are you calling Prof. 's >> research and data all a lie?? >> The numbers are factual. They also only include US Citizens. >> I bet if I asked all those AMERICANS that are not insured if they >> wanted health insurance, they would scream YES! But, the fact is that >> many of them can't get it because they either have a pre-existing >> condition or they can't financially afford the premiums because either >> they are unemployed; POOR; Underemployed; or their employer can't >> afford the premiums or IF they are lucky enough to have medical insurx >> in the first place- have huge premiums that keep going up. >> Don't put YOUR words into my mouth. I never stated capitalism is wrong >> and I agree that health insurance SHOULD be portable. I think if you >> can get a better price on insurx in another state then you should be >> able to buy it. BUT, the private insurance companies don't allow that. >> that is part of the problem. That is what the health care reform would >> fix. >> >> As far as universal healthcare in the UK, Europe, Australia and Canada >> goes. You are Incorrect because I have family all over the globe and >> they ALL love their universal healthcare! The US already has rationing >> and waiting lists. You can NOT tell me that if you wanted to have an >> elective surgery tomorrow or even this week that your insurance would >> allow you. That only exists with those " Cadillac plans " . All other >> medical insurx plans have pre-authorization processes that takes >> weeks. I know because I deal with that ALL THE TIME. >> My friend Malcolm is a surgeon and everyone of his patients' insurance >> companies ALL have a Pre-authorization process that his office has to >> work through and unless it is emergency surgery, he can not operate >> right away. ERGO, there is a waiting period. >> >> I don't need to Google UK healthcare, because I know about it first >> hand and It was Great! Never got a bill. And ZERO waiting! > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2010 Report Share Posted January 13, 2010 Because nancie they include people who can afford HC insurance as those without it. You are the one who needs to check your facts. They inflate the number of people without for a reason. A lot of the people they include are illegals or non-citizens. So including these people doesn't give us the real story. They act like ALL the people without insurance are poverty stricken. The point is there are way less! CW -- Re: Re:Rationing Nancie, You wrote about the AMA position: > > here is their opinion and support stance: > http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/health-system-reform/bulletin/23dec2009 shtml > <http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/health-system-reform/bulletin/23dec2009 shtml> Please note that this refers to the Senate bill. All of our discussion to this point was about the house bill. According to this statement, support of a conference agreement is contingent on getting rid of exactly those parts to which I objected. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2010 Report Share Posted January 13, 2010 Why do you get so irate so quickly? No body else here is yelling. You are the one who just told me to Google something so how can you tell the next person that it's not all factual? CW -- Re: Fw: Re:Rationing > Nancie, you're truly living in a dream world. Try putting " problems with > UK healthcare system " into Google and read just a few of the first hits. > It puts the lie to everything you say about the healthcare system there. > There are over 12 million hits. > > But I know you won't dare; you're not going to look at any evidence that > contradicts your opinions. You're going to ignore the vast quantity of > data that expresses a different viewpoint that contradicts yours. > > Here's just one of the 12 million hits: > . > . >> >> >> *UK* Health Care *System* In Need of Repair >> >> by Carty, MD, MSPH >> 01-26-2008 >> >> >> Inadequate facilities, poor quality medical and nursing care in >> several British hospitals cause deaths from intestinal infections. >> >> Imagine that you are seriously, even critically ill. You are in a >> dirty, rundown, understaffed hospital. The nurses, doctors, and other >> employees are rude, inattentive, and incompetent, and you can’t get >> out. What could be more terrifying? >> >> Such, apparently, was the nightmarish predicament of a number of >> patients with serious intestinal infections in a group of British >> hospitals between 2004 and 2006. An October 2007 report by the >> government’s Commission for *Healthcare* Audit and Inspection has >> exposed a number of deficiencies in the UK’s rickety government-run >> health care *system*, the National Health Service (NHS). The report >> showed that outbreaks of Clostridium difficile (C. diff.) intestinal >> infections in several NHS hospitals: Kent Hospital, Sussex Hospital, >> and Maidstone Hospital, directly caused at least 90 deaths between >> 2004 and 2006 and contributed to many more. C. diff. is a type of >> bacterium which can cause serious intestinal infections, often after >> the administration of antibiotics. >> >> The report documented poor quality medical and nursing care and >> inadequate infection control measures. Doctors made mistakes in >> antibiotic prescribing, fluid and nutrition management, and in many >> other aspects of care. >> >> Nurses frequently did not wash their hands, wear gloves and gowns, >> clean mattresses, empty and clean commodes, feed patients, or give >> patients their medications. Patients who asked for help in going to >> the toilet were often told to “go in the bed,” then left to lie in >> their own urine and stool for long periods. Patients and family >> members described the care as “despicable,” “sickening,” and “appalling,” >> >> Drity sink in clean utility room in UK hospital >> >> A sink in the " clean " utility room >> >> The NHS hospitals involved were old, dirty, and rundown. Although >> patients with C. diff. infection should be put in single rooms to >> prevent transmission of the infection to other patients, this was >> usually impossible. Only 10% of the hospitals’ beds were in single >> rooms. Patients were usually put in beds jammed together in long rows >> in large rooms. One hospital had only one sink for every 6 beds, and >> the other two hospitals had one sink for every 12 beds. >> >> >> Empty apologies, empty promises. >> >> The public release of the report was followed by the usual cynical >> apologies and promises of reform and “zero tolerance.” In addition to >> the C. diff. outbreaks at Kent, Sussex, and Maidstone hospitals, a >> similar outbreak at another NHS hospital, Stoke Mandeville Hospital, >> caused 33 deaths between 2003 and 2005. >> >> Beds jammed together in a UK hospital contributed to spread of infection >> >> Patients were usually put in beds jammed together in long rows in >> large rooms >> >> >> *UK* health care *system* needs a makeover. >> >> How did the *UK* end up with such a dysfunctional health care >> *system*? The English are prosperous, intelligent, even brilliant >> people. One of my medical school professors, originally from the *UK*, >> published the first account of a carotid endarterectomy, the operation >> to clean out the arteries in the neck to prevent strokes. He was >> famous as a surgeon, professor, and writer and operated on Winston >> Churchill and the King of Kuwait. >> >> >> Inadequate funding, poor management. >> >> Although government mismanagement is without question part of the >> problem, the *UK* spends much less on health care than the US. Still, >> the British government nationalized the health care *system* in 1948 >> and has had over fifty years to work the kinks out of the *system*. >> >> The British people deserve better. >> > . > . > That's what you want for us??? > > > > . > . > >> >> Posted by: " nancie barnett " deifspirit@... >> >> <mailto:deifspirit@msn com?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Fw%3A%20%5Bhypothyroidism%5D%20Re%3ARationing> >> aspenfairy1 <aspenfairy1> >> >> >> Mon Jan 11, 2010 11:26 pm (PST) >> >> >> >> the numbers are from Think Tanks and from policy centers as in RAND; >> UCLA Public Health and from Gerard from Hopkins >> Bloomberg School of Public Health. So are you calling Prof. 's >> research and data all a lie?? >> The numbers are factual. They also only include US Citizens. >> I bet if I asked all those AMERICANS that are not insured if they >> wanted health insurance, they would scream YES! But, the fact is that >> many of them can't get it because they either have a pre-existing >> condition or they can't financially afford the premiums because either >> they are unemployed; POOR; Underemployed; or their employer can't >> afford the premiums or IF they are lucky enough to have medical insurx >> in the first place- have huge premiums that keep going up. >> Don't put YOUR words into my mouth. I never stated capitalism is wrong >> and I agree that health insurance SHOULD be portable. I think if you >> can get a better price on insurx in another state then you should be >> able to buy it. BUT, the private insurance companies don't allow that. >> that is part of the problem. That is what the health care reform would >> fix. >> >> As far as universal healthcare in the UK, Europe, Australia and Canada >> goes. You are Incorrect because I have family all over the globe and >> they ALL love their universal healthcare! The US already has rationing >> and waiting lists. You can NOT tell me that if you wanted to have an >> elective surgery tomorrow or even this week that your insurance would >> allow you. That only exists with those " Cadillac plans " . All other >> medical insurx plans have pre-authorization processes that takes >> weeks. I know because I deal with that ALL THE TIME. >> My friend Malcolm is a surgeon and everyone of his patients' insurance >> companies ALL have a Pre-authorization process that his office has to >> work through and unless it is emergency surgery, he can not operate >> right away. ERGO, there is a waiting period. >> >> I don't need to Google UK healthcare, because I know about it first >> hand and It was Great! Never got a bill. And ZERO waiting! > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2010 Report Share Posted January 13, 2010 The problem is that the conservatives will never vote for it, and the democrats are too chicken to vote for it. The results are going to be a huge pork laden bill that probably will not help the citizens as much as it will the insurance companies, AMA and Big Pharma. It's a shame. Roni <>Just because something isn't seen doesn't mean it's not there<> From: nancie barnett <deifspirit@...> Subject: Re: Fw: Re:Rationing hypothyroidism Date: Tuesday, January 12, 2010, 4:15 PM I am sorry but YOU are the one who is living in a republican twisted world of LIES and misrepresentations of the truth. I have said REPEATEDLY that I HAVE FAMILY LIVING ABROAD WHO LOVE THEIR HEALTHCARE AND WOULD NEVER TRADE THEIR HEALTHCARE SYSTEM FOR THE BULL SHIT SYSTEM THAT WE HAVE HERE IN THE USA. I THINK YOU NEED TO GO LIVE THERE FOR A FEW YEARS AND ALSO LIVE IN CONTINENTAL EUROPE AND SEE THE BLOODY TRUTH INSTEAD OF RELYING ON RIGHT WING REPUBS WHO HAVE AN ADGENDA OF KEEPING THEMSELVES WEALTHY FROM TAKING MONEY FORM HEALTH INSURANCE COMPANIES. NOT EVERYTHING ON GOOGLE IS THE REALITY OR FACTUAL. YOU HAVE TO WEED IT OUT, JAMES. I KNOW YOU ARE SMARTER THAN THAT. YOU SHOULD KNOW BETTER. MY FAMILY AND I HAVE EXPERIENCED UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE ACROSS THE GLOBE AND ALL OF IT WAS GOOD, EVEN CANADA AND MEXICO. NO WAITING LINES; NO EXCESSIVE WAITING PERIODS THAT ARE LONGER THAN WHAT OURS ARE ALREADY. WE NEVER GOT A BILL NOT ONCE EVEN THOUGH WE WERE NOT A CITIZEN OF THEIR COUNTRY. THE MEDICINE WAS THE SAME AS WE WOULD GET HERE- FROM THE SAME PHARMACEUTICAL COMPANIES. YOU AND I WILL NEVER AGREE ON THIS ISSUE- YOU ARE A CONSERVATIVE REPUBLICAN [ HOPEFULLY NOT A RIGHT WINGER] AND I AM A LEFT WING LIBERAL DEMOCRAT. I HAVE SEEN THE TRUTH ABOUT UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE ON A GLOBAL LEVEL AND APPARENTLY YOU HAVEN'T. PLAIN AND SIMPLE. -------------------------------------------------- From: " " <res075oh@...> Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 11:24 AM <hypothyroidism > Subject: Re: Fw: Re:Rationing > Nancie, you're truly living in a dream world. Try putting " problems with > UK healthcare system " into Google and read just a few of the first hits. > It puts the lie to everything you say about the healthcare system there. > There are over 12 million hits. > > But I know you won't dare; you're not going to look at any evidence that > contradicts your opinions. You're going to ignore the vast quantity of > data that expresses a different viewpoint that contradicts yours. > > Here's just one of the 12 million hits: > . > . >> >> >>   *UK* Health Care *System* In Need of Repair >> >> by Carty, MD, MSPH >> 01-26-2008 >> >> >>     Inadequate facilities, poor quality medical and nursing care in >>     several British hospitals cause deaths from intestinal infections. >> >> Imagine that you are seriously, even critically ill. You are in a >> dirty, rundown, understaffed hospital. The nurses, doctors, and other >> employees are rude, inattentive, and incompetent, and you can’t get >> out. What could be more terrifying? >> >> Such, apparently, was the nightmarish predicament of a number of >> patients with serious intestinal infections in a group of British >> hospitals between 2004 and 2006. An October 2007 report by the >> government’s Commission for *Healthcare* Audit and Inspection has >> exposed a number of deficiencies in the UK’s rickety government-run >> health care *system*, the National Health Service (NHS). The report >> showed that outbreaks of Clostridium difficile (C. diff.) intestinal >> infections in several NHS hospitals: Kent Hospital, Sussex Hospital, >> and Maidstone Hospital, directly caused at least 90 deaths between >> 2004 and 2006 and contributed to many more. C. diff. is a type of >> bacterium which can cause serious intestinal infections, often after >> the administration of antibiotics. >> >> The report documented poor quality medical and nursing care and >> inadequate infection control measures. Doctors made mistakes in >> antibiotic prescribing, fluid and nutrition management, and in many >> other aspects of care. >> >> Nurses frequently did not wash their hands, wear gloves and gowns, >> clean mattresses, empty and clean commodes, feed patients, or give >> patients their medications. Patients who asked for help in going to >> the toilet were often told to “go in the bed,†then left to lie in >> their own urine and stool for long periods. Patients and family >> members described the care as “despicable,†“sickening,†and “appalling,†>> >> Drity sink in clean utility room in UK hospital >> >> A sink in the " clean " utility room >> >> The NHS hospitals involved were old, dirty, and rundown. Although >> patients with C. diff. infection should be put in single rooms to >> prevent transmission of the infection to other patients, this was >> usually impossible. Only 10% of the hospitals’ beds were in single >> rooms. Patients were usually put in beds jammed together in long rows >> in large rooms. One hospital had only one sink for every 6 beds, and >> the other two hospitals had one sink for every 12 beds. >> >> >>     Empty apologies, empty promises. >> >> The public release of the report was followed by the usual cynical >> apologies and promises of reform and “zero tolerance.†In addition to >> the C. diff. outbreaks at Kent, Sussex, and Maidstone hospitals, a >> similar outbreak at another NHS hospital, Stoke Mandeville Hospital, >> caused 33 deaths between 2003 and 2005. >> >> Beds jammed together in a UK hospital contributed to spread of infection >> >> Patients were usually put in beds jammed together in long rows in >> large rooms >> >> >>     *UK* health care *system* needs a makeover. >> >> How did the *UK* end up with such a dysfunctional health care >> *system*? The English are prosperous, intelligent, even brilliant >> people. One of my medical school professors, originally from the *UK*, >> published the first account of a carotid endarterectomy, the operation >> to clean out the arteries in the neck to prevent strokes. He was >> famous as a surgeon, professor, and writer and operated on Winston >> Churchill and the King of Kuwait. >> >> >>     Inadequate funding, poor management. >> >> Although government mismanagement is without question part of the >> problem, the *UK* spends much less on health care than the US. Still, >> the British government nationalized the health care *system* in 1948 >> and has had over fifty years to work the kinks out of the *system*. >> >> The British people deserve better. >> > . > . > That's what you want for us??? > > > > . > . > >> >>     Posted by: " nancie barnett " deifspirit@... >> >> <mailto:deifspirit@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Fw%3A%20%5Bhypothyroidism%5D%20Re%\ 3ARationing> >>     aspenfairy1 <aspenfairy1> >> >> >>      Mon Jan 11, 2010 11:26 pm (PST) >> >> >> >> the numbers are from Think Tanks and from policy centers as in RAND; >> UCLA Public Health and from Gerard from Hopkins >> Bloomberg School of Public Health. So are you calling Prof. 's >> research and data all a lie?? >> The numbers are factual. They also only include US Citizens. >> I bet if I asked all those AMERICANS that are not insured if they >> wanted health insurance, they would scream YES! But, the fact is that >> many of them can't get it because they either have a pre-existing >> condition or they can't financially afford the premiums because either >> they are unemployed; POOR; Underemployed; or their employer can't >> afford the premiums or IF they are lucky enough to have medical insurx >> in the first place- have huge premiums that keep going up. >> Don't put YOUR words into my mouth. I never stated capitalism is wrong >> and I agree that health insurance SHOULD be portable. I think if you >> can get a better price on insurx in another state then you should be >> able to buy it. BUT, the private insurance companies don't allow that. >> that is part of the problem. That is what the health care reform would >> fix. >> >> As far as universal healthcare in the UK, Europe, Australia and Canada >> goes. You are Incorrect because I have family all over the globe and >> they ALL love their universal healthcare! The US already has rationing >> and waiting lists. You can NOT tell me that if you wanted to have an >> elective surgery tomorrow or even this week that your insurance would >> allow you. That only exists with those " Cadillac plans " . All other >> medical insurx plans have pre-authorization processes that takes >> weeks. I know because I deal with that ALL THE TIME. >> My friend Malcolm is a surgeon and everyone of his patients' insurance >> companies ALL have a Pre-authorization process that his office has to >> work through and unless it is emergency surgery, he can not operate >> right away. ERGO, there is a waiting period. >> >> I don't need to Google UK healthcare, because I know about it first >> hand and It was Great! Never got a bill. And ZERO waiting! > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2010 Report Share Posted January 13, 2010 Crystal how do you know this for a fact? Roni <>Just because something isn't seen doesn't mean it's not there<> From: Crystal <sweetnwright@...> Subject: Re: Fw: Re:Rationing hypothyroidism Date: Tuesday, January 12, 2010, 4:38 PM Because nancie they include people who can afford HC insurance as those without it. You are the one who needs to check your facts. They inflate the number of people without for a reason. A lot of the people they include are illegals or non-citizens. So including these people doesn't give us the real story. They act like ALL the people without insurance are poverty stricken. The point is there are way less! CW -- Re: Re:Rationing Nancie, You wrote about the AMA position: > > here is their opinion and support stance: > http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/health-system-reform/bulletin/23dec2009 shtml > <http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/health-system-reform/bulletin/23dec2009 shtml> Please note that this refers to the Senate bill. All of our discussion to this point was about the house bill. According to this statement, support of a conference agreement is contingent on getting rid of exactly those parts to which I objected. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2010 Report Share Posted January 13, 2010 Because there are margins of error. I believe it's well documented that they include the rich and illegals into the numbers. If you look on the US census bureau website you may find more information. CW -- Re: Re:Rationing Nancie, You wrote about the AMA position: > > here is their opinion and support stance: > http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/health-system-reform/bulletin/23dec2009 shtml > <http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/health-system-reform/bulletin/23dec2009 shtml> Please note that this refers to the Senate bill. All of our discussion to this point was about the house bill. According to this statement, support of a conference agreement is contingent on getting rid of exactly those parts to which I objected. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2010 Report Share Posted January 13, 2010 Roni, I'm sure that's your position but it's not the position of a vast number of liberals and socialists. " Free " healthcare [or " free " anything] is going to be paid for by someone, and it's almost always the working stiff that gets it in the shorts for any other tax and spend idiot proposal that someone can come up with. Often the rich have enough power/influence to protect their interests. Just look at the bone-headed boondoggle idea to tax yachts a few decades back. .. .. > > Posted by: " Roni Molin " matchermaam@... > <mailto:matchermaam@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Fw%3A%20%5Bhypothyroidism%5D%20\ Re%3ARationing> > matchermaam <matchermaam> > > > Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:01 pm (PST) > > > > There are very few people, except the people that are indigent for one > reason or another that think people who work for a living should be > paying for everyone else. Everyone needs to participate in the society. > > Roni > <>Just because something > isn't seen doesn't mean it's > not there<> > > > > From: Steve <dudescholar4@... > <mailto:dudescholar4%40basicmail.net>> > Subject: Re: Fw: Re:Rationing > hypothyroidism > <mailto:hypothyroidism%40> > Date: Tuesday, January 12, 2010, 12:10 AM > > With the exclusion of illegals, most Americans who don't not have health > care don't have it because they choose to spend their money on something > else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2010 Report Share Posted January 13, 2010 The link Crystal posted was broken; if you paste it together here's what you should get: .. .. <http://www.gallup.com/poll/124715/Majority-Americans-Not-Backing-Healthcare-Bil\ l.aspx> .. .. HOWEVER: Although I got to the page properly when I pasted her link into my browser and got the page she referenced I ran into another problem: If I copy and paste the same URL into my browser it then takes me to another site. Every time I put the correct URL into my browser that happens, and I cannot get to the right site. For some reason it reverts to a Google search results page rather than the URL specified; I have no idea why. Google is not involved in any way with the indicated site. If the link above takes you to a Google search results page you're having the same problem I did. Sorry I can't be of more help. .. .. > Posted by: " Roni Molin " matchermaam@... > <mailto:matchermaam@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Fw%3A%20%5Bhypothyroidism%5D%20\ Re%3ARationing> > matchermaam <matchermaam> > > > Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:57 pm (PST) > > > > Crystal, this is what comes up from the address you posted. > > http://search3.comcast.com/?cat=dnsr & con=ds & url=www.gallup > <http://search3.comcast.com/?cat=dnsr & con=ds & url=www.gallup> > > Roni > <>Just because something > isn't seen doesn't mean it's > not there<> > > > > From: Crystal <sweetnwright@... <mailto:sweetnwright%40cox.net>> > Subject: Re: Fw: Re:Rationing > hypothyroidism > <mailto:hypothyroidism%40> > Date: Tuesday, January 12, 2010, 11:49 AM > > Here is a more recent healthcare from a website you sited: > http://www.gallup > com/poll/124715/Majority-Americans-Not-Backing-Healthcare-Bill.aspx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2010 Report Share Posted January 13, 2010 Crystal, it's broken again. Usually if you will enclose the complete link in arrows it will not be broken. Like this: ; ; <Http://www.Gallupcom/poll/124715/Majority-Americans-Not-Backing-Healthcare-Bill\ ..aspx > .. .. Unfortunately I'm still having trouble with it. Although I got it immediately when I pasted all the parts together then when I copied the link directly from that page at least half the time I'm taken to a completely different Google search results page. Strangely [to me at least] the first search result on that page takes me to the correct page. I'm afraid I've lost it somewhere... .. .. > Posted by: " Crystal " sweetnwright@... > <mailto:sweetnwright@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Fw%3A%20%5Bhypothyroidism%5D%20R\ e%3ARationing> > sweetenloe1 <sweetenloe1> > > > Tue Jan 12, 2010 1:19 pm (PST) > > > > It looks like the link was broken. Http://www.Gallup > com/poll/124715/ > Majority-Americans-Not-Backing-Healthcare-Bill.aspx here it > is again. > > -- Re: Fw: Re:Rationing > > > Crystal, this is what comes up from the address you posted. > > http://search3.comcast.com/?cat=dnsr & con=ds & url=www.gallup > <http://search3.comcast.com/?cat=dnsr & con=ds & url=www.gallup> > > Roni Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2010 Report Share Posted January 13, 2010 Oh okay! Thanks CW -- Re: Fw: Re:Rationing > > > Crystal, this is what comes up from the address you posted. > > http://search3.comcast.com/?cat=dnsr & con=ds & url=www.gallup > <http://search3.comcast.com/?cat=dnsr & con=ds & url=www.gallup> > > Roni Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2010 Report Share Posted January 13, 2010 , that is pretty much what I was saying. Everybody pays. Roni <>Just because something isn't seen doesn't mean it's not there<> > > From: Steve <dudescholar4@... > <mailto:dudescholar4%40basicmail.net>> > Subject: Re: Fw: Re:Rationing > hypothyroidism > <mailto:hypothyroidism%40> > Date: Tuesday, January 12, 2010, 12:10 AM > > With the exclusion of illegals, most Americans who don't not have health > care don't have it because they choose to spend their money on something > else. ------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2010 Report Share Posted January 13, 2010 Yes that's what it did when I pasted it too. I don't think Crystal went to the site herself, just put the link down from some right wing site that said it was a real poll. Did you go to the site Crystal? What did you get. If you got something different, post it here for us. Roni <>Just because something isn't seen doesn't mean it's not there<> > > From: Crystal <sweetnwright@... <mailto:sweetnwright%40cox.net>> > Subject: Re: Fw: Re:Rationing > hypothyroidism > <mailto:hypothyroidism%40> > Date: Tuesday, January 12, 2010, 11:49 AM > > Here is a more recent healthcare from a website you sited: > http://www.gallup > com/poll/124715/Majority-Americans-Not-Backing-Healthcare-Bill.aspx ------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2010 Report Share Posted January 13, 2010 Yes, I tried the link too, but it didn't work, that is why I gave instructions on exactly what to click on. CW -- Re: Fw: Re:Rationing > hypothyroidism > <mailto:hypothyroidism%40> > Date: Tuesday, January 12, 2010, 11:49 AM > > Here is a more recent healthcare from a website you sited: > http://www.gallup > com/poll/124715/Majority-Americans-Not-Backing-Healthcare-Bill.aspx ------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2010 Report Share Posted January 13, 2010 From where did you obtain the link in the first place? Roni <>Just because something isn't seen doesn't mean it's not there<> > > From: Crystal <sweetnwright@... <mailto:sweetnwright%40cox.net>> > Subject: Re: Fw: Re:Rationing > hypothyroidism > <mailto:hypothyroidism%40> > Date: Tuesday, January 12, 2010, 11:49 AM > > Here is a more recent healthcare from a website you sited: > http://www.gallup > com/poll/124715/Majority-Americans-Not-Backing-Healthcare-Bill.aspx ------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2010 Report Share Posted January 13, 2010 Actually, I disagree that anyone needs to participate in society. We are individuals ostensibly with the right to live our lives as we each see fit (government bs restrictions ignored for this argument). If I own 5000 acres of land and live on it, never see a soul, have it fenced in with no trespassing signs, then so be it. Heck, I could run a nudist cohabitating commune with all food grown or hunted locally and living off the land and it would be none of the business of " society " , or the neighbors. In fact, it could only become the concern of neighbors IF, and only IF, I decided to burn the whole thing down and then the only recourse the neighbors should have would be smoke damage if it blew in one direction or any issue that caused similar impact. As long as I don't do injury or fraud to other people or property, I should be able to do what ever I darned well please, society be darned. Steve On 1/12/2010 1:01 PM, Roni Molin wrote: > There are very few people, except the people that are indigent for one reason or another that think people who work for a living should be paying for everyone else. Everyone needs to participate in the society. > > > Roni > <>Just because something > isn't seen doesn't mean it's > not there<> > > >> Nancie, the problem is that you cannot interpret the constitution to include >> healthcare. I'm pretty sure people died much earlier and faced many more >> killer diseases than we do today when the constitution was being constructed >> Therefore, if the writers intended for the govt to take care of people's >> health, they would have written that in. I wonder who comes up with the # >> of people who are uninsured? I bet there are way less. Also, how many of >> those are here illegally? Those people still wont be eligible for >> healthcare if they were citizens. Also, how many of the uninsured choose to >> be uninsured? A large majority of the uninsured can afford it if they >> wanted to. Having insurance has to be a priority for people (not a cell >> phone and cable and other forms of entertainment). I'm not saying the >> private insurance companied are perfect, they need work! Chuck is right >> about allowing people to buy across state lines. That would virtually wipe >> out the problems. Oh but capitalism is wrong, I forgot. >> >> Universal healthcare presents all kinds of waiting lists. That is why >> people who live in the UK and Canada come here. In my personal opinion what >> needs to be illegal is cigarettes. If the govt wants to get involved in the >> healthcare of people so bad, that's the first place they should start. Shut >> down the tobacco factories and a lot of people will have their lives saved. >> I bet they leave those people up and running though. However, they will >> tell you since you have a high BMI you will be penalized. Google UK >> healthcare and see what you get. >> >> My best friend has a daughter who had cancer when she was 5. She was on >> chemo for 2 and a half years. The bills stacked up and 5 years later they >> are still paying. Ask them if they think the govt should be in charge of >> their daughters healthcare and they say no!!!! >> >> Google Huffman who is a British politician and see what he said about >> their healthcare system. He was a supporter of Obama BTW. Govt healthcare >> is a mistake! >> -- Re: Re:Rationing >> >> Nancie, >> >> You wrote about the AMA position: >>> >>> here is their opinion and support stance: >>> http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/health-system-reform/bulletin/23dec2009 >> shtml >>> <http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/health-system-reform/bulletin/23dec2009 >> shtml> >> >> Please note that this refers to the Senate bill. All of our discussion >> to this point was about the house bill. According to this statement, >> support of a conference agreement is contingent on getting rid of >> exactly those parts to which I objected. >> >> Chuck > -- Steve - dudescholar4@... " The Problem with Socialism is that eventually you run out of Other People's Money. " --Margaret Thatcher " Mistrust of Government is the Bedrock of American Patriotism " Take World's Smallest Political Quiz at http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2010 Report Share Posted January 13, 2010 And some books are more " unhealthy " than others so tax those a lot extra. Who gets to make my decisions for me? What about non-organic, that's less healthy so tax it extra! What about music devices that allow one to turn it loud enough to cause hearing loss over time, tax that extra. How about TV shows that come on late at night when you OUGHT to be asleep, tax that. What about pools without fences, tax that. What about windows that aren't triple paned for energy efficiency, tax that. And what the heck, have you look at a one pound package of salt! Dirt cheap. It should at least have a $10 tax per pound to FORCE people to be healthier. Have I taken this to the logical end where government decides what is and isn't good for you and makes your decisions for you? (And they are not capable of determining what is and isn't good for you so they follow the recommendations of the lobbyists and special interests which have nothing to do with your interests.) No BS taxes! The only tax that makes any sense and would eliminate the ability of special interests and corporate interests from creating 1000s of pages of tax law is a flat tax either on income or purchases with tax rebate for people in the bottom say 10%. Anything more is corrupt and unfair at it core. On 1/12/2010 11:30 AM, Roni Molin wrote: > I a bad economy, politicians come up with crazy schemes to get extra tax money. Taxing those things that are unhealthy in the first place is probably the least crazy. In my estimation they should tax tobbacco (cigaretted, cigars) to 200% of the price. > > > Roni > <>Just because something > isn't seen doesn't mean it's > not there<> > > > > > From: bfsmo<bfsmo@...> > Subject: RE: Fw: Re:Rationing > hypothyroidism > Date: Tuesday, January 12, 2010, 8:33 AM > > > I heard this morning the are going to start restricting the use of salt!! > That might be in New York, not sure of the detail. New York was also going > to tax sweet beverages like soda, fruit juice. > > > > From: hypothyroidism [mailto:hypothyroidism ] > On Behalf Of Crystal > Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 10:19 AM > hypothyroidism > Subject: Re: Fw: Re:Rationing > > > > > > Actually, more than half of the people without health insurance make 50,000 > or more a year. Again, private insurance needs help and reformation, but > allowing govt control is a big big mistake. If we can't learn from other > countries thenwe deserve what we get. There is a reason the majority of > Americans don't want Obama care to pass. A lot of law makers WILL lose > their seats if this thing passes. I suggest you quit watching msnbc to get > your news. > If you mean a breast augmentation for elective surgery, then no my insurance > will not pay it, but what insurance will? The majority of people in those > countries do not like their healthcare. I honestly do not believe you when > you tell me how wonderful it is because I know otherwise. More man run govt > is never good. I don't care who the president is. Teddy Roosevelt was one > of the worst presidents in history, yet he was Republican. He was a > progressive, just like Obama, Clinton and McCain are. At least now with our > current helathcare, they don't tell you what you can eat. I guarantee you > that if we have govt run HC, they will tell us to put our ice cream away! I > m not going to keep arguing with your views, it's a waste of time as I'm > sure you think the same. Only time will tell. I said the same thing about > Obama. I kinda hoped he would get voted in just so people could see hoe bad > things are going to get. I kinda feel like we are slipping into a > Orwell novel. Creepy! > CW > > -- Re: Re:Rationing > > Nancie, > > You wrote about the AMA position: >> >> here is their opinion and support stance: >> http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/health-system-reform/bulletin/23dec2009 > shtml >> <http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/health-system-reform/bulletin/23dec2009 > shtml> > > Please note that this refers to the Senate bill. All of our discussion > to this point was about the house bill. According to this statement, > support of a conference agreement is contingent on getting rid of > exactly those parts to which I objected. > > Chuck -- Steve - dudescholar4@... " The Problem with Socialism is that eventually you run out of Other People's Money. " --Margaret Thatcher " Mistrust of Government is the Bedrock of American Patriotism " Take World's Smallest Political Quiz at http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2010 Report Share Posted January 13, 2010 The caveat was people who want to be and are part of society. Of course, if you take yourself out of society no one is directing any comments toward you. You become irrelevant to this discussion because you don't exist as an entitity in the society. The only time you would be part of it is if you partook of it in any way. Roni <>Just because something isn't seen doesn't mean it's not there<> >> Nancie, the problem is that you cannot interpret the constitution to include >> healthcare. I'm pretty sure people died much earlier and faced many more >> killer diseases than we do today when the constitution was being constructed >> Therefore, if the writers intended for the govt to take care of people's >> health, they would have written that in. I wonder who comes up with the # >> of people who are uninsured? I bet there are way less. Also, how many of >> those are here illegally? Those people still wont be eligible for >> healthcare if they were citizens. Also, how many of the uninsured choose to >> be uninsured? A large majority of the uninsured can afford it if they >> wanted to. Having insurance has to be a priority for people (not a cell >> phone and cable and other forms of entertainment). I'm not saying the >> private insurance companied are perfect, they need work! Chuck is right >> about allowing people to buy across state lines. That would virtually wipe >> out the problems. Oh but capitalism is wrong, I forgot. >> >> Universal healthcare presents all kinds of waiting lists. That is why >> people who live in the UK and Canada come here. In my personal opinion what >> needs to be illegal is cigarettes. If the govt wants to get involved in the >> healthcare of people so bad, that's the first place they should start. Shut >> down the tobacco factories and a lot of people will have their lives saved. >> I bet they leave those people up and running though. However, they will >> tell you since you have a high BMI you will be penalized. Google UK >> healthcare and see what you get. >> >> My best friend has a daughter who had cancer when she was 5. She was on >> chemo for 2 and a half years. The bills stacked up and 5 years later they >> are still paying. Ask them if they think the govt should be in charge of >> their daughters healthcare and they say no!!!! >> >> Google Huffman who is a British politician and see what he said about >> their healthcare system. He was a supporter of Obama BTW. Govt healthcare >> is a mistake! >> -- Re: Re:Rationing >> >> Nancie, >> >> You wrote about the AMA position: >>> >>> here is their opinion and support stance: >>> http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/health-system-reform/bulletin/23dec2009 >> shtml >>> <http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/health-system-reform/bulletin/23dec2009 >> shtml> >> >> Please note that this refers to the Senate bill. All of our discussion >> to this point was about the house bill. According to this statement, >> support of a conference agreement is contingent on getting rid of >> exactly those parts to which I objected. >> >> Chuck > -- Steve - dudescholar4@... " The Problem with Socialism is that eventually you run out of Other People's Money. " --Margaret Thatcher " Mistrust of Government is the Bedrock of American Patriotism " Take World's Smallest Political Quiz at http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html ------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2010 Report Share Posted January 13, 2010 I really don't care if people do things that are bad for themselves. I do object to people smoking and harming those around them. It's the same as if they took a gun loaded with slow acting poison and shot it at people in their vicinity on a regular basis. However, what you want to eat or drink is your business, and I don't think it's anyone else's. I think the governors are getting desperate and don't know what to do. Roni <>Just because something isn't seen doesn't mean it's not there<> > > > From: bfsmo<bfsmo@...> > Subject: RE: Fw: Re:Rationing > hypothyroidism > Date: Tuesday, January 12, 2010, 8:33 AM > > > I heard this morning the are going to start restricting the use of salt!! > That might be in New York, not sure of the detail. New York was also going > to tax sweet beverages like soda, fruit juice. > > > > From: hypothyroidism [mailto:hypothyroidism ] > On Behalf Of Crystal > Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 10:19 AM > hypothyroidism > Subject: Re: Fw: Re:Rationing > > > > > > Actually, more than half of the people without health insurance make 50,000 > or more a year. Again, private insurance needs help and reformation, but > allowing govt control is a big big mistake. If we can't learn from other > countries thenwe deserve what we get. There is a reason the majority of > Americans don't want Obama care to pass. A lot of law makers WILL lose > their seats if this thing passes. I suggest you quit watching msnbc to get > your news. > If you mean a breast augmentation for elective surgery, then no my insurance > will not pay it, but what insurance will? The majority of people in those > countries do not like their healthcare. I honestly do not believe you when > you tell me how wonderful it is because I know otherwise. More man run govt > is never good. I don't care who the president is. Teddy Roosevelt was one > of the worst presidents in history, yet he was Republican. He was a > progressive, just like Obama, Clinton and McCain are. At least now with our > current helathcare, they don't tell you what you can eat. I guarantee you > that if we have govt run HC, they will tell us to put our ice cream away! I > m not going to keep arguing with your views, it's a waste of time as I'm > sure you think the same. Only time will tell. I said the same thing about > Obama. I kinda hoped he would get voted in just so people could see hoe bad > things are going to get. I kinda feel like we are slipping into a > Orwell novel. Creepy! > CW > > -- Re: Re:Rationing > > Nancie, > > You wrote about the AMA position: >> >> here is their opinion and support stance: >> http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/health-system-reform/bulletin/23dec2009 > shtml >> <http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/health-system-reform/bulletin/23dec2009 > shtml> > > Please note that this refers to the Senate bill. All of our discussion > to this point was about the house bill. According to this statement, > support of a conference agreement is contingent on getting rid of > exactly those parts to which I objected. > > Chuck -- Steve - dudescholar4@... " The Problem with Socialism is that eventually you run out of Other People's Money. " --Margaret Thatcher " Mistrust of Government is the Bedrock of American Patriotism " Take World's Smallest Political Quiz at http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html ------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2010 Report Share Posted January 13, 2010 Roni, I posted today [or late yesterday] a breakdown of some of those include in the bogus 45,000,000 number of uninsured. As Nancie suggested, I Googled it. Please either read my post and present any questions or just Google it yourself. The actual number of those who don't have insurance and can't afford it is probably quite a bit under 20% of the claimed 45,000,000. It's the typical liberal lie, repeated over and over and over until everyone [well, except those who bother to check it out] believes it. .. .. > > Posted by: " Roni Molin " matchermaam@... > <mailto:matchermaam@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Fw%3A%20%5Bhypothyroidism%5D%20\ Re%3ARationing> > matchermaam <matchermaam> > > > Tue Jan 12, 2010 4:59 pm (PST) > > > > Crystal how do you know this for a fact? > > Roni > <>Just because something > isn't seen doesn't mean it's > not there<> > > > > From: Crystal <sweetnwright@... <mailto:sweetnwright%40cox.net>> > Subject: Re: Fw: Re:Rationing > hypothyroidism > <mailto:hypothyroidism%40> > Date: Tuesday, January 12, 2010, 4:38 PM > > Because nancie they include people who can afford HC insurance as those > without it. You are the one who needs to check your facts. They inflate > the number of people without for a reason. A lot of the people they > include > are illegals or non-citizens. So including these people doesn't give > us the > real story. They act like ALL the people without insurance are poverty > stricken. The point is there are way less! > CW > > -- Re: Fw: Re:Rationing > > > No you are incorrect. the numbers are 45 million people who have no health > insurance. Why don't YOU Google it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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