Phenols

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/20/02 10:08:07 AM Central Standard Time,

kjorn@... writes:

> If

> you have problems with phenols, should you eat more foods high in

> sulfur or avoid them (similar to the enzyme question). The answer

> is: depends. Some people do better eating them and some people do

> worse.

The plasma-cysteine test offered by Great Smokies is supposed to tell you if

you're high or low sulfur.

[Guest guest]

> If you have a phenol problem are you high or low in sulfer.

Hi ,

You can be any

If you have a phenols problem usually the body cannot find enough sulfate to

detoxify them. But you can have low sulfate and be a high or low sulfur person.

I am sorry, I know it's confusing, but don't worry, you will read so many times

about these things here, that you will understand them perfectly, soon

You can use Epsom salts for additional sulfate.

Valentina

[Guest guest]

>>> Iv'e read so many posts iv'e become confused. If you have a

phenol problem are you high or low in sulfer.

I don't know, lol. I don't think having a sulfur problem indicates

you are high OR low. The sulfur/sulfation issue is very complicated

and we tripped over it before around Christmas trying to figure out

the relationship with chelation - the mercury group goes round and

round with this as well, if that is any consolation! For example: If

you have problems with phenols, should you eat more foods high in

sulfur or avoid them (similar to the enzyme question). The answer

is: depends. Some people do better eating them and some people do

worse. The hang-up is because you may be flat out deficient in

sulfur so you need to take in more. But it may also be a problem

with converting sulfur to the form the body can use, sulfate. You

may be taking in plenty of sulfur but your body cannot convert it so

consuming more isn't needed or helpful. You may be low in sulfur but

still cannot convert it. Or maybe you can convert it but are just

low so you need more, and consuming it would be helpful.

Taking sulfur as MSM may or may not be helpful because the sulfur in

MSM is in a form that needs to be converted. Most people do well

with epsom salts because the sulfur is already in the sulfate form

and does not need to be converted.

.

[Guest guest]

> I've seen mentioned several times something about phenols, but I

don't know

> anything about it. Is there a website I can look at to see what

your all

> talking about?

>

> Diane

Here is my page

http://www.autismchannel.net/dana/phenol.htm

Dana

[Guest guest]

> My son doesn't get red cheeks or ears, but he does have a purplish

color

> under his eyes. Could that be phenol problems?

Dark circles, a high indicator of food allergy/intolerance or phenols

http://www.autismchannel.net/dana/phenol.htm

Dana

[Guest guest]

100% yes.

> My son doesn't get red cheeks or ears, but he does have a purplish

color

> under his eyes. Could that be phenol problems?

>

> Diane

[Guest guest]

Yeah! on the " recovered " dx.

Here is Dana's great phenol page with food lists:

http://www.autismchannel.net/dana/phenol.htm

Here is the epsom salts file which has additional info on this:

(are we information intensive here or what!!) .

Epsom Salts

What are Epsom salts?

Epsom salts are magnesium sulfate. Salts are just molecules that

come together based on having a positive and negative charge.

Magnesium has a positive charge. Sulfate has a negative charge, and

they dissociate (or go their separate ways) in solution. Sulfate is

a sulfur atom surrounded by four oxygen atoms and it has a negative

charge. It has all sorts of unique biological functions. Epsom salts

can be very beneficial for individuals with neurological conditions

including autism spectrum, sensory integration disorder, and

ADD/ADHD.

How do they work? Why do they work?

Dr. Rosemary Waring has found that most autistic spectrum kids, and

lots of others with neurological conditions, are very low in

sulfate. They may be as low as 15% of neurologically typical people.

Sulfate is needed for a pathway in the body that processes

salicylates, phenols, chemicals of all kinds (including food colors,

artificial flavoring, and preservatives), and other things the body

sees as toxins. This can include heavy metals. The body may have

more toxins to process than it can because of a lack of sulfur. To

alleviate the unpleasant reactions such as hyperness, aggression,

tantrums, sleep problems, night sweats, irritability, eczema, other

skin conditions, etc. you can unclog this " bottleneck " by 1) getting

rid of the amount of toxins that enter the body, or 2) supplying

more sulfur to increase the amount of toxins that can be processed

from the body. Epsom salts (magnesium sulfate) supplies the needed

sulfur. The body takes in more sulfur, more toxins are processed and

you don't see the nasty behaviors and effects.

The magnesium and sulfate in the salts are absorbed into the body

through

the skin. Because the sulfur is already in the sulfate form, it does

not

need to be converted like other forms of sulfur do. Sulfate will

circulate

in the body up to nine hours. The Epsom salts left on the skin may

continue to be absorbed as long as it is still on the skin, offering

something sort of like " timed release " into the blood stream, just

like medications that are given through skin patches.

Sulfate ions are not absorbed well from the gut, so simply giving

more sulfur directly may not produce major improvements. Some people

have seem improvements by supplementing with the sulfur containing

amino acids cysteine and taurine, and by giving MSM. However, others

have not. Most people do see some improvement with Epsom salts

because the form of sulfur in the Epsom salts is readily available to

the body. It does not need to be converted. Symptoms include: dark

circles under the eyes, red face/ears, diarrhea, hyperactivity,

aggression, headache, head banging or other self-injury,

inappropriate laughter, difficulty falling asleep at night, and night

waking for several hours. More reading and resources on sulfation and

phenol intolerance can be found at:

http://www.autismchannel.net/dana/phenol.htm

Many people on a typical American diet are very deficient in

magnesium as well. Epsom salts also supply magnesium. A main effect

of insufficient magnesium is hyperness, irritability, anxiety and

muscle twitching or spasms. So the salts provide two-way assistance.

Sulfur can also be added to the body by supplementing with MSM.

However, in the MSM form, the sulfur needs to be converted to the

sulfate form first.

Here is a link to a VERY LONG description (may " thorough " is a

better description) of this detox pathway and sulfur.

/files/Related%

20Topics/PST

If you do a search for PST or phenyl sulfotransferase system, you

will find many, many references on this.

How to give Epsom salts

There are several methods parents have used.

1. Epsom salt baths. Most people use about 1-2 cups per tub.

Dissolve the salts in hot water first and then fill the tub to about

waist deep, as warm as possible. The amount of salts that you may

find works best will depend on the individual tolerance, the

temperature of the water, and the size of the tub. The warmer the

water and larger the tub, the more salts will dissolve. If a larger

amount of salts creates a negative reactions, then decrease the dose.

You may need to start slowly using as little as one tablespoon of

salts

and working up gradually. Epsom salts baths are very calming for most

people. This works well before bedtime. Most recommendations say to

soak

for about 20 minutes or more. It is okay to let the salts dry on the

skin. YOu may notice a dry clear-white powder. If it is too itchy or

irritating, just rinse them off. If the skin feels too dry, use

lotion or oils to moisturize. Don't drink the bath water because it

could cause diarrhea.

2. Epsom salt oil. I have been experimenting a bit with the Epsom

salts. It would leave a salty film on the skin which my two boys and

I didn't like (itchy). Lately, I have been mixing some coconut oil

in with the salts and water. Actually it is more oil than water. 3

tablespoons water + 4 tablespoons salts + 12 tablespoon coconut oil.

The coconut oil is good for the skin anyway and it seems to counter

the drying effect of the salts. I found that just mixing the salts

and oil did not dissolve the salts, so I needed to add just some

water. I apply this liberally on the skin and it soaks in plus

leaves the skin smooth and soft.

3. Mix 1 part salts to 2 parts water (or more so the salts dissolve)

and let the person soak their feet in it. My boys would soak their

feet about 30 minutes while they did reading or homework.

4. Mix 1 part salts and 1 part water (add more water if the salts

are not dissolved) and put in a spray-squirt bottle. Mist the

child's chest and/or back and let it dry on. Works well in the

summer.

5. Use one of those plastic squeeze bottles with a sponge on top

that are used for dampening postal stamps, and fill it with the

Epsom salts and water. A solution of 1 part salts to 4 parts water

works well. This can be applied to any part of the body.

6. There are some new Epsom salt creams available.

7. You can mix a salt and some kind of acceptable lotion into a

paste. Put this paste on a large bandaid and apply to the skin. The

salts will soak in.

As you can see, there is no exact ratio…just what seems to get the

salts dissolved and on the skin. MSM powder or creams (many of these

on the market) can help with the sulfur. However, some recent

research shows that oral sulfur is not as well absorbed. Also, this

won't supply magnesium.

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

When my daughter has phenols, I brace myself because I know the next few hours

are going to test every reserve in me. She becomes totally wired up..i.e starts

to aggravate the dog, trashes the place, is very un-cooperative, rolls around

the floor..giggles while she tortures the dog. I usually arrive in time to bring

her into a safe harbour..the dog I mean and I could go on. Several hours later

the red ears..they almost look as if they are smarting, appear and the pupils

dilate. the next morning the pupils remain dilated and she has dark circles and

tautness under the eyes. She usually is extremely grumpy and bitchy..the dog

usually heads for behind the couch...the safe harbour

Now then since she has been taking the enzymes Pepti..H=Zyme and No-Fenol,

these are greatly reduced. In fact the first day I put her on these enzymes, she

fell asleep with me on the couch. The last time she did this was 5 years ago.

Usually she is edgy and on High C.

[ ] Phenols

What exactly are the " Phenol " foods, and what are the syptoms of

Phenol intolerace? We have been GFCF for 2 years and my daughter went

from a PDD dx to a " recovered " dx (YAY). But, I just want to make

sure we aren't missing anything. She still has her spacey, in her own

world days. Thanks,

[Guest guest]

What you can do is go to www.google.com. Enter in the word " salicylates " .

When the list of sites comes up look for one that lists foods. Click on it.

Print the list it presents and post it on your 'fridge door or wherever.

That's what I've done. Eventually, I think I've memorized it, tear it down,

then forget again. I go to google and do a search.....

Dates are high in phenols, figs are low, hazlenuts moderate/low, cashews low,

but brazil nuts high. Who can figure.

Bananas are nil but apples, if peeled, should only be moderate. There may

be more than phenols to this apple thing, which is very common for kids with

autism. My son seems to react to pears, which are very low in salicylates,

so I don't really understand.

[Guest guest]

> Bananas are nil

Bananas are very low salicylate, but high amine, which is another

subset of phenol. On my phenol page, I have links for relative

salicylate and amine content of foods

http://www.danasview.net/phenol.htm

>> but apples, if peeled, should only be moderate.

A peeled golden delicious apple would be the lowest salicylate of

apples.

There may

> be more than phenols to this apple thing, which is very common for

kids with

> autism. My son seems to react to pears, which are very low in

salicylates,

> so I don't really understand.

My kids also did not tolerate pears, altho they do with No-Fenol

enzyme. Pears and apples are in the same food family, so your child

probably reacts to the apples/pears themselves, and not just the

phenol content.

Dana

[Guest guest]

>>>> Yes, I have been reading that phenols are evrywhere. So when

our kids react to phenols, does that mean they will react to *all*

phenols? As in even substances naturally occuring in the body??

That is an excellent question. I think it would depend on how the

phenolic compound, if created internally, works in the body or if it

needs to be detoxed from the body. Probably some are fine, and some

contribute to the total load. I will keep a look out for any related

info.

.

P.S. My email server service went ka-put for a few days so I have

been emailess for a bit.

[Guest guest]

> >You will also see that Norepinephrine, a >neurotransmitter is

also a phenolic compound. >Not all phenols are bad. Some are very

> >beneficial. There are thousands of phenolic >compounds. Actually

anything that contains >this phenol structure.

On a related note....I wonder if because the body has trouble

processing phenols properly, this contributes to why the phenolic

neurotransmitters are off too.

.

[Guest guest]

> >You will also see that Norepinephrine, a >neurotransmitter is also

a phenolic compound. >Not all phenols are bad. Some are very

> >beneficial. There are thousands of phenolic >compounds. Actually

anything that contains >this phenol structure.

>

> Yes, I have been reading that phenols are evrywhere. So when our

kids react to phenols, does that mean they will react to *all*

phenols?

Not necessarily. Some people react only to salicylates, some only to

amines, some to both. And those are only TWO of the

naturally-occurring phenol groups. There are several other groups

that I know of, plus all the petroleum-based groups. More info here

http://www.danasview.net/phenol.htm

Dana

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/18/04 1:40:57 PM, karitrautman@... writes:

<< we had switched from rice milk, to vanilla rice milk. >>

As far as Feingold goes, pure vanilla is fine but " vanilla flavor " or

vanillin is not. Sure enough we use tons of vanilla (morning smoothies) with no

problem but a vanillin infraction is Bad News. I'd check the rice milk also for

sugar -- i think that stuff tastes so bad they have to put something in it for

people to get it down LOL . Really I think water is the only way to go...

Nell

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/18/04 2:59:25 PM, karitrautman@... writes:

<< but there is high oleic safflower oil and sea salt as the other 2

ingredients. Any potential problems with those in regards to Feingold? >>

I don't think so. But one thing Feingold stresses -- and Elaine Gottschall of

SCD as well -- is that way too often the label doesn't tell the whole story.

There are tremendous loopholes in the requirements, so that you can read the

label closely, know just what to look for, and still get screwed. I have to

say, probably like most people who do Feingold, that I tried to get away with

just reading labels and it didn't work. We kept getting reactions and had an

impossible time trying to sort them out. So moving to SCD was actually a relief,

because no processed food means no labels so I don't have to worry about any of

it anymore.

Nell

[Guest guest]

Actually no sugar, but there is high oleic safflower oil and sea salt as the

other 2 ingredients. Any potential problems with those in regards to Feingold?

Thanks!

Kari

Re: phenols

In a message dated 1/18/04 1:40:57 PM, karitrautman@... writes:

<< we had switched from rice milk, to vanilla rice milk. >>

As far as Feingold goes, pure vanilla is fine but " vanilla flavor " or

vanillin is not. Sure enough we use tons of vanilla (morning smoothies) with

no

problem but a vanillin infraction is Bad News. I'd check the rice milk also

for

sugar -- i think that stuff tastes so bad they have to put something in it for

people to get it down LOL . Really I think water is the only way to go...

Nell

[Guest guest]

> Just realized somewhere along the line we had switched from rice milk, to

vanilla rice milk. Has straight " vanilla " as an ingredient,

any chance this is high in phenols?

On the scale of 1-5 [or actually " negligible to very high " ], pure vanilla is a

2, so low phenol, but not NO phenol.

>> Also tried a vanilla rice/protein adder from NutriBiotic's. Their

ingredients is rice protein from brown rice and vanilla flavor. Looks

like from the Feingold site nothing with the word " flavor " should be considered.

Yep, if it is vanillin, it would be high phenol.

>> Lastly, were do lemons rate in the world of phenols?

Lemons are moderate [3] salicylate but high amine, so high phenol.

>> I thought I found a list that gave quantifying phenol values but can't find

it.

I like this list

http://www.zip.com.au/~ataraxy/Salic_03.txt

Dana

[Guest guest]

This is very helpful, and am really thinking there is a link. Which I guess

makes sense because I understand a yeast overgrowth can contribute to having a

problem with phenols. If I have it right, a salicylate is a type of phenol, so

what is amine? Is it also a type of phenol? Lemons make me realize it could

have contributed heavily, but guess I have to know amines are and do. Is there

such a list? Now just to add to the fun, has anyone realized that many of the

high salicylates are the opposite for yeast problems? For example when I get

around to trying to challenge fruit for her yeast, it is recommended to go with

berries or apples-which are high. And tomatoes and olives/olive oil she LOVES

but am seeing them also as highs, even though they don't feed the yeast, which

would explain why we have noticed a problem with these items. Also have been

giving her olive leaf extract to battle a cold the past few days and sensing

that could have been a negative too.

So this is where we are. She can't have dairy and little eggs due to

sensitivity; major yeast problem trying to avoid all the culprits; reacts to

salicylates; determined all nuts are out as she seems to reacts probably to a

combo of both; doesn't like fish, beans, and hardly meat. Oh now you sprinkle

in the fact that I don't know how to cook, and I'm at a loss for ideas. Thanks

to Miti I bought my first butternut squash, and she loved it! So am totally

open for ideas any one has that might work

Thanks,

Kari

>> Lastly, were do lemons rate in the world of phenols?

Lemons are moderate [3] salicylate but high amine, so high phenol.

>> I thought I found a list that gave quantifying phenol values but can't

find it.

I like this list

http://www.zip.com.au/~ataraxy/Salic_03.txt

Dana

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Hi

kari

Where did you find about these list of food/fruits feeding yeast can you

please tell

thanks in advance

seema

In a message dated 20/01/2004 06:51:59 GMT Standard Time,

karitrautman@... writes:

> Now just to add to the fun, has anyone realized that many of the high

> salicylates are the opposite for yeast problems? For example when I get

around

> to trying to challenge fruit for her yeast, it is recommended to go with

> berries or apples-which are high. And tomatoes and olives/olive oil she LOVES

> but am seeing them also as highs, even though they don't feed the yeast, which

> would

[Guest guest]

>

> This is very helpful, and am really thinking there is a link. Which I guess

makes sense because I understand a yeast overgrowth

can contribute to having a problem with phenols.

A yeast overgrowth can contribute to many food issues. If the yeast is

pervasive, it can put holes in the gut lining, so far as I have

learned.

>>If I have it right, a salicylate is a type of phenol, so what is amine? Is it

also a type of phenol?

Yes

>>Lemons make me realize it could have contributed heavily, but guess I have to

know amines are and do. Is there such a list?

These sites have amine info

http://www.fedupwithfoodadditives.info/

http://www.eklhad.net/manage-amines.html

>>Now just to add to the fun, has anyone realized that many of the high

salicylates are the opposite for yeast problems? For

example when I get around to trying to challenge fruit for her yeast, it is

recommended to go with berries or apples-which are high.

And tomatoes and olives/olive oil she LOVES but am seeing them also as highs,

even though they don't feed the yeast, which would

explain why we have noticed a problem with these items. Also have been giving

her olive leaf extract to battle a cold the past few

days and sensing that could have been a negative too.

From another list, cranberries and certain other berries [i forget which, it is

in McCandless' book] are not supposed to feed yeast, but

yes they are high phenol.

Peeled golden delicious apples are the lowest phenol apples.

Olive leaf extract is green, and my son did not tolerate green things even with

No-Fenol enzyme until well into chelation, and now

when I give it, he needs No-Fenol enzyme. Do you give it with enzyme?

Dana

[Guest guest]

Wow. So this stuff has a whole life of it's own. Would explain what her

issues always seem to come out around night time, like something tips the scale

and she starts melting down all over. I saw that sesame seeds are high in

amines, but not sesame seed oil. Does this make sense? Just wondering if that

could have tripped her up. On this " fed up " site in one spot it even saids that

candida issues are really just a bad reaction to sugar or something and not the

root of the problem.

Dana I recall you had a hard time with corn with one of your children, a

luterin (sp?) Is that also a kind of phenol group?

Thanks, Kari

Re: phenols

>>If I have it right, a salicylate is a type of phenol, so what is amine? Is

it also a type of phenol?

Yes

>>Lemons make me realize it could have contributed heavily, but guess I have

to know amines are and do. Is there such a list?

These sites have amine info

http://www.fedupwithfoodadditives.info/

http://www.eklhad.net/manage-amines.html

[Guest guest]

>>I saw that sesame seeds are high in amines, but not sesame seed oil. Does

this make sense?

Perhaps the amines are contained in the non-oil part of the seeds.

>>Just wondering if that could have tripped her up. On this " fed up " site in

one spot it even saids that candida issues are really just a

bad reaction to sugar or something and not the root of the problem.

Don't believe everything you read on sites. Some of it might not apply to your

child, and some of it might just be plain wrong. Use

sites as a starting point, then make adjustments based on your child's

reactions.

> Dana I recall you had a hard time with corn with one of your children, a

luterin (sp?) Is that also a kind of phenol group?

In my opinion it is. Basically, it is like beta carotenes. If you remove

luteins, you need to add back things for vitamin A. CLO is

recommended if your child tolerates that, otherwise you can use TwinLabs Allergy

A, which I used for quite a while, until my son

tolerated CLO.

Dana

[Guest guest]

Okay I'm reading about phenols & it seems like every fruit & vegetable my

son eats is high. Are these like gluten & caesin? When you can't digest

them do you crave them? If they're removed from his diet is he likely to

start eating other foods?

He is allergic or sensitive to every grain around; they give him loose

stools. He has a documented IgE allergy to rice; the others I go by

symptoms only and choose not to have him retested. I am beginning to wonder

if this might be a yeast-centered issue BUT he eats lots of fruit and

potatoes without the loose stools. So then I consider leaky gut, and am

grateful we cut these foods out of his diet while he was so young. (It was

a process beginning at about 14 mos and ending up completely grain free at

2.)

He is also deathly allergic to dairy. We carry an epi pen.

So his diet is already quite limited, as well as being quite a picky eater,

and I hesitate to cut out the fruits and vegetables he does eat. It would

literally leave him with meat and potatoes. (He eats tomatoes, peppers,

sometimes cucumber, apples, bananas, grapes, & sometimes peaches. Very

occasionally oranges but citrus fruits also tend to give him diahrrea. He

will eat homemade ice cream or popsicles I make by pureeing & freezing

berries & other fruits.)

I'm willing to try the Mb and digestive enzymes. We already do epsom salts.

If we are likely to see benefits from further restricting his diet I'm

willing to do that as well, but I hesitate to do so without more

information.

Any help would be most appreciated. Please feel free to refer me to other

information sources. I have read what I can find on Dana's site and at the

group site.

We are already scent-free/chemical-free and he does not eat artificial

flavors or colors or preservatives.

Thank you!

-Sara.

[Guest guest]

Tomatoes and juice also feed yeast. For my son, when he was GFCF,

because of the many items on that diet that are simple starches and

higher in sugar, his yeast got much worse.

Phenol and yeast symptoms can mimic each other. If No Fenol isn't

totally working, keep using it but limit the amount of phenols, and

don't allow them later in the day (towards bedtime.)

Amy

>

> Ever since we put my son on the GFCF diet, he has been craving

> ketchup. I switched to an unsweetened variety to reduce the

sugar,

> but I am wondering whether he might crave ketchup because tomatoes

are

> a high phenol food. I made the mistake of letting him have apple

> juice yesterday and he has been running around like a madman since

> before 5:00 AM. He has been taking No-Fenol, but I get the

feeling he

> is replacing one addiction (milk) with another (ketchup and

apples).

> Is this possible? Thank you.

>

> Maureen

>