Re: Testosterone ethanate vs proprionate- E2 conversion?

[Guest guest]

Injections of any type should not pass through the liver. Orals do.

chis_az <chis_az@...> wrote: I have had a mixed response to gels, but I

tried testosterone

proprionate injections 50mgs two- three times a week and my estradiol

went up to over 70pg/ml and I was getting pain in my side where my

liver is. I believe this was due to the first pass on the liver.

I have a history of liver cancer so that was a concern and a reason to

come off that form of treatment

Does anyone know if ethanate converts less than proprionate to E2?

Or for that matter does anyone know if there are differences between

their actions on the liver?

I have never been prescribed ethanate and was wondering if it too was

a non runner, or whether its pharmacology was sufficiently different

to make it worthy of consideration.

Thoughts?

[Guest guest]

> Does anyone know if ethanate converts less than proprionate to E2?

Hi chris

I am not a biochemist and I have not check this out as yet but when I last

visited my

professor of endocrinology and was discussing Nebido (which is a related ester)

he

did say there was less of a conversion for the bigger esters of testosterone. I

will

however, check this out or someone else here can tell us both.

How are you?

Take care

On 21 May 2006 at 17:19, chis_az wrote:

> I have had a mixed response to gels, but I tried testosterone

> proprionate injections 50mgs two- three times a week and my estradiol

> went up to over 70pg/ml and I was getting pain in my side where my

> liver is. I believe this was due to the first pass on the liver.

>

> I have a history of liver cancer so that was a concern and a reason to

> come off that form of treatment

>

> Does anyone know if ethanate converts less than proprionate to E2?

>

> Or for that matter does anyone know if there are differences between

> their actions on the liver?

>

> I have never been prescribed ethanate and was wondering if it too was

> a non runner, or whether its pharmacology was sufficiently different

> to make it worthy of consideration.

>

> Thoughts?

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Nebido isn't testosterone ethanate- it is testosterone undecanoate

and is a totally different kettle of fish as it has a lower

testosterone to E2 conversion rate, but it is used in higher doses

so it can convert to quite high levels of E2....sort of like the

fact that low alcohol larger is less alcoholic than...well normal

larger but if you drink hundreds of them, the fact that they are low

alcohol doesn't mean anything. In other words Nebido has a low

conversion rate, but tends to produce high E2 because of the dosages

involved.

What I am asking here is spearate from the above, I am asking;

Are there significant differences between virormone/testosterone

proprionate 50mgs two to three times a week and 100mgs a week of

testosterone ethanate in terms of the conversion to E2?

>

> > I have had a mixed response to gels, but I tried testosterone

> > proprionate injections 50mgs two- three times a week and my

estradiol

> > went up to over 70pg/ml and I was getting pain in my side where

my

> > liver is. I believe this was due to the first pass on the liver.

> >

> > I have a history of liver cancer so that was a concern and a

reason to

> > come off that form of treatment

> >

> > Does anyone know if ethanate converts less than proprionate to

E2?

> >

> > Or for that matter does anyone know if there are differences

between

> > their actions on the liver?

> >

> > I have never been prescribed ethanate and was wondering if it

too was

> > a non runner, or whether its pharmacology was sufficiently

different

> > to make it worthy of consideration.

> >

> > Thoughts?

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I'm pretty much certain that injections do pass through the liver,

the question is too what degree.

Becauase I have had a lot of my liver removed I am very sensitive to

the actions on the liver and I know for a fact that

virormone/testosterone proprionate requires a first pass on the

liver because I have felt pain from the liver whilst on it and the

first pass was also something mentioned by a couple of

endocrinologists. I am not saying that the injections are

methalated, just that they require a first pass on the liver (that

is not the case and a differinng issue with few meds).

I think ethanate might be the same as proprionate in terms of its

first pass effects and I think it might also be something I can't go

on, but I do not know 100% and I cannot say if it would have the

same effect on E2 in my case. hence my question

Not all orals are supposed to have have first pass on the liver,

Restandol is supposed to go via the lymphatic system, but I think

that is a rubbish as I also felt pains in my liver from that med.

I am on Androgel which works to a degree and does not cause any pain

in the liver/doesn't require a first pass...but I am not truly well

on it hence the question regarding the differences between ethanate

and proprionate.

I am not sure if anyone is really going to know the answer...

I have had a mixed response to gels,

but I tried testosterone

> proprionate injections 50mgs two- three times a week and my

estradiol

> went up to over 70pg/ml and I was getting pain in my side where my

> liver is. I believe this was due to the first pass on the liver.

>

> I have a history of liver cancer so that was a concern and a

reason to

> come off that form of treatment

>

> Does anyone know if ethanate converts less than proprionate to E2?

>

> Or for that matter does anyone know if there are differences

between

> their actions on the liver?

>

> I have never been prescribed ethanate and was wondering if it too

was

> a non runner, or whether its pharmacology was sufficiently

different

> to make it worthy of consideration.

>

> Thoughts?

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Chris

Yes, I fully understood what you were asking and my reply still stands although

I

have not checked this out. I realise that Nebido is not the same ester but a

related

large molecular weight ester unlike the lower smaller chain esters. Although

Nebido

is large-dosage the original Testosterone Undecanoate vials on the market for im

injections were much smaller dosage.

On 21 May 2006 at 19:27, chis_az wrote:

> Hi ,

>

> Nebido isn't testosterone ethanate- it is testosterone undecanoate and

> is a totally different kettle of fish as it has a lower testosterone

> to E2 conversion rate, but it is used in higher doses so it can

> convert to quite high levels of E2....sort of like the fact that low

> alcohol larger is less alcoholic than...well normal larger but if you

> drink hundreds of them, the fact that they are low alcohol doesn't

> mean anything. In other words Nebido has a low conversion rate, but

> tends to produce high E2 because of the dosages involved.

>

> What I am asking here is spearate from the above, I am asking;

>

> Are there significant differences between virormone/testosterone

> proprionate 50mgs two to three times a week and 100mgs a week of

> testosterone ethanate in terms of the conversion to E2?

>

>

>

>

>

> > > > I have had a mixed response to gels, but I tried

> testosterone > > proprionate injections 50mgs two- three times a week

> and my estradiol > > went up to over 70pg/ml and I was getting pain in

> my side where my > > liver is. I believe this was due to the first

> pass on the liver. > > > > I have a history of liver cancer so that

> was a concern and a reason to > > come off that form of treatment > >

> > > Does anyone know if ethanate converts less than proprionate to E2?

> > > > > Or for that matter does anyone know if there are differences

> between > > their actions on the liver? > > > > I have never been

> prescribed ethanate and was wondering if it too was > > a non runner,

> or whether its pharmacology was sufficiently different > > to make it

> worthy of consideration. > > > > Thoughts? > > > > > > > > > > > > >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi

The link I have is for FTM but has good info in it.

The Virormone is a fast acting T and will convert faster.

The Proprionate same as Virormone fast release time 3 -4 days.

The Ethanate slower 8 -10 days less converson to E2 then gel for me.

http://web.mit.edu/hudson/www/ttypes.html

Phil

chis_az <chis_az@...> wrote: Hi ,

Nebido isn't testosterone ethanate- it is testosterone undecanoate

and is a totally different kettle of fish as it has a lower

testosterone to E2 conversion rate, but it is used in higher doses

so it can convert to quite high levels of E2....sort of like the

fact that low alcohol larger is less alcoholic than...well normal

larger but if you drink hundreds of them, the fact that they are low

alcohol doesn't mean anything. In other words Nebido has a low

conversion rate, but tends to produce high E2 because of the dosages

involved.

What I am asking here is spearate from the above, I am asking;

Are there significant differences between virormone/testosterone

proprionate 50mgs two to three times a week and 100mgs a week of

testosterone ethanate in terms of the conversion to E2?

>

> > I have had a mixed response to gels, but I tried testosterone

> > proprionate injections 50mgs two- three times a week and my

estradiol

> > went up to over 70pg/ml and I was getting pain in my side where

my

> > liver is. I believe this was due to the first pass on the liver.

> >

> > I have a history of liver cancer so that was a concern and a

reason to

> > come off that form of treatment

> >

> > Does anyone know if ethanate converts less than proprionate to

E2?

> >

> > Or for that matter does anyone know if there are differences

between

> > their actions on the liver?

> >

> > I have never been prescribed ethanate and was wondering if it

too was

> > a non runner, or whether its pharmacology was sufficiently

different

> > to make it worthy of consideration.

> >

> > Thoughts?

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Chris

I have a close friend who is a pharmacologist and could find the answer if you

are

still looking.

On 21 May 2006 at 20:32, chis_az wrote:

> I'm pretty much certain that injections do pass through the liver, the

> question is too what degree.

>

> Becauase I have had a lot of my liver removed I am very sensitive to

> the actions on the liver and I know for a fact that

> virormone/testosterone proprionate requires a first pass on the liver

> because I have felt pain from the liver whilst on it and the first

> pass was also something mentioned by a couple of endocrinologists. I

> am not saying that the injections are methalated, just that they

> require a first pass on the liver (that is not the case and a

> differinng issue with few meds).

>

> I think ethanate might be the same as proprionate in terms of its

> first pass effects and I think it might also be something I can't go

> on, but I do not know 100% and I cannot say if it would have the same

> effect on E2 in my case. hence my question

>

> Not all orals are supposed to have have first pass on the liver,

> Restandol is supposed to go via the lymphatic system, but I think that

> is a rubbish as I also felt pains in my liver from that med.

>

> I am on Androgel which works to a degree and does not cause any pain

> in the liver/doesn't require a first pass...but I am not truly well on

> it hence the question regarding the differences between ethanate and

> proprionate.

>

> I am not sure if anyone is really going to know the answer...

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> I have had a mixed

> response to gels, but I tried testosterone > proprionate injections

> 50mgs two- three times a week and my estradiol > went up to over

> 70pg/ml and I was getting pain in my side where my > liver is. I

> believe this was due to the first pass on the liver. > > I have a

> history of liver cancer so that was a concern and a reason to > come

> off that form of treatment > > Does anyone know if ethanate converts

> less than proprionate to E2? > > Or for that matter does anyone know

> if there are differences between > their actions on the liver? > > I

> have never been prescribed ethanate and was wondering if it too was >

> a non runner, or whether its pharmacology was sufficiently different >

> to make it worthy of consideration. > > Thoughts? > > > > > > > > > >

> >

[Guest guest]

>

> Hi ,

>

> Nebido isn't testosterone ethanate- it is testosterone undecanoate

> and is a totally different kettle of fish as it has a lower

> testosterone to E2 conversion rate, but it is used in higher doses

> so it can convert to quite high levels of E2....sort of like the

> fact that low alcohol larger is less alcoholic than...well normal

> larger but if you drink hundreds of them, the fact that they are low

> alcohol doesn't mean anything. In other words Nebido has a low

> conversion rate, but tends to produce high E2 because of the dosages

> involved.

>

> What I am asking here is spearate from the above, I am asking;

>

> Are there significant differences between virormone/testosterone

> proprionate 50mgs two to three times a week and 100mgs a week of

> testosterone ethanate in terms of the conversion to E2?

>

I'm extremely skeptical of claims that one form aromatises more than

another form. There seem to be many ideas on this and few good

studies to provide evidence. I do feel compelled to point out that

50mgs of propionate twice per week is more testosterone than 100mg of

enanthate due to the difference in the mass of the esters. Three

doses per week would be even more different.

Brad

[Guest guest]

Hi Brad can you explain how 50mg twice a week of proprionate is more

than 100mg once a week of ethanate. Is there an equation that shows

this? Also if it is more how much more?

This series of questions I have been asking are important as I am

trying to find out if ethanate would be an option for me or not.

If it is similar to proprionate then it obviously won't work for me.

> >

> > Hi ,

> >

> > Nebido isn't testosterone ethanate- it is testosterone

undecanoate

> > and is a totally different kettle of fish as it has a lower

> > testosterone to E2 conversion rate, but it is used in higher

doses

> > so it can convert to quite high levels of E2....sort of like the

> > fact that low alcohol larger is less alcoholic than...well

normal

> > larger but if you drink hundreds of them, the fact that they are

low

> > alcohol doesn't mean anything. In other words Nebido has a low

> > conversion rate, but tends to produce high E2 because of the

dosages

> > involved.

> >

> > What I am asking here is spearate from the above, I am asking;

> >

> > Are there significant differences between virormone/testosterone

> > proprionate 50mgs two to three times a week and 100mgs a week of

> > testosterone ethanate in terms of the conversion to E2?

> >

>

> I'm extremely skeptical of claims that one form aromatises more

than

> another form. There seem to be many ideas on this and few good

> studies to provide evidence. I do feel compelled to point out that

> 50mgs of propionate twice per week is more testosterone than 100mg

of

> enanthate due to the difference in the mass of the esters. Three

> doses per week would be even more different.

>

>

> Brad

>

[Guest guest]

>

> Hi Brad can you explain how 50mg twice a week of proprionate is more

> than 100mg once a week of ethanate. Is there an equation that shows

> this? Also if it is more how much more?

>

>

> This series of questions I have been asking are important as I am

> trying to find out if ethanate would be an option for me or not.

>

> If it is similar to proprionate then it obviously won't work for me.

>

>

The difference is small but perhaps it will matter since you're

sensitive (or your liver is).

Testosterone has a molecular weight of 288.42

Testosterone propionate has amw of 344.49

Testosterone enanthate has a mw of 400.6

Testosterone cypionate has a mw of 412.61

Nebido has a mw of 456.7

You can use a ratio to make a rough calculation of the testosterone

available.

Propionate 288/344 * 50mg * 2 = approx 84 mg

Enanthate 288/401 * 100mg = approx 72 mg

Cypionate 288/413 * 100mg = approx 70 mg

Nebido 288/457 * 100mg = approx 63 mg

Three shots propionate 288/344 * 50mg * 3 = approx 126mg

So two shots is slightly different and three is substantially different.

Good luck

Brad