Re: Magnesium question/ 2 possibilities

[Guest guest]

Been pubmed-ing today. Two issues on this, each may be useful to some

people.

1. Citrate content can change ph as pointed out, including via

supplements. The studies have been working out the mechanism in

recent years on pH and the oxalate issue. What has been determined is

that citrate supplements (calcium citrate, magnesium citrate,

potassium citrate, etc.) can lower pH in the gut so that problem

oxalate compounds do form as quickly or as frequently. So citrate can

reduce the problem oxalate compounds leading to kidney stones and

similar oxalate problems. It was found that it was the citrate

portion of these supplements and not the mineral part (the calcium,

the magnesium, etc).

I'm not sure what this means for those trying the oxalate diet.

However, as for yeast, a lower pH is noted as tending to favor yeast.

So citrate compounds lowering pH may lead to yeast increase. If you

do not have yeast problem, it isn't likely to start a problem. But if

you are struggling with yeast already, it may be better to get a

different form than citrate for mineral supplements.

And now we have an explanation backed up by related research.

Thank you, thank you both and for helping out with this.

I'll write the Natural Calm folks and see if they have any thoughts

on this.

2. This is a different issue than the previous. If you are magnesium

deficient and have constipation. Constipation can promote yeast as

well as bacteria. If you start magnesium citrate or other magnesium

form, it can relieve the constipation. This disrupts the yeast's

environment and you can have either yeast increase or die-off as the

yeast tries to readjust to the change in internal environment. In

this case, it wouldn't be the citrate form specifically stirring up

the yeast, it would be relief in constipation.

Any thoughts on either of these? Two different things which can both

be related to 'taking mag citrate and stirring up yeast'. If there is

no constipation problems, then number 2 is less likely. If you switch

from magnesium citrate to another form of magnesium and STILL get the

same yeast issues, then number 2 is more likely.

.

>>>so perhaps there could be a temporary die off in some people.

This was posted on the Oxalate list this morning:

>

> Therapeutic action of citrate in urolithiasis explained by chemical

speciation: increase in pH is the determinant factor.

[Guest guest]

My dh has heart problems caused by magnesium deficiency. The past

two weeks I've been giving him kelp. Kelp is very high in

magnesium. His heart is doing better. We've tried epsom salt skin

oil and that got rid of some of the magnesium deficiency symptoms,

but only the more minor ones and only for about two weeks, then they

started to return. Kelp is the only thing we've tried so far that's

helped his heart. Kelp doesn't have any side effects, except in

some people it causes painful gas. But I've found we can get rid of

the painful gas problem if we mix in a little chlorella powder.

--

>

> Been pubmed-ing today. Two issues on this, each may be useful to

some

> people.

>

> 1. Citrate content can change ph as pointed out, including via

> supplements. The studies have been working out the mechanism in

> recent years on pH and the oxalate issue. What has been determined

is

> that citrate supplements (calcium citrate, magnesium citrate,

> potassium citrate, etc.) can lower pH in the gut so that problem

> oxalate compounds do form as quickly or as frequently. So citrate

can

> reduce the problem oxalate compounds leading to kidney stones and

> similar oxalate problems. It was found that it was the citrate

> portion of these supplements and not the mineral part (the

calcium,

> the magnesium, etc).

>

> I'm not sure what this means for those trying the oxalate diet.

> However, as for yeast, a lower pH is noted as tending to favor

yeast.

> So citrate compounds lowering pH may lead to yeast increase. If

you

> do not have yeast problem, it isn't likely to start a problem. But

if

> you are struggling with yeast already, it may be better to get a

> different form than citrate for mineral supplements.

>

> And now we have an explanation backed up by related research.

> Thank you, thank you both and for helping out with

this.

> I'll write the Natural Calm folks and see if they have any

thoughts

> on this.

>

> 2. This is a different issue than the previous. If you are

magnesium

> deficient and have constipation. Constipation can promote yeast as

> well as bacteria. If you start magnesium citrate or other

magnesium

> form, it can relieve the constipation. This disrupts the yeast's

> environment and you can have either yeast increase or die-off as

the

> yeast tries to readjust to the change in internal environment. In

> this case, it wouldn't be the citrate form specifically stirring

up

> the yeast, it would be relief in constipation.

>

> Any thoughts on either of these? Two different things which can

both

> be related to 'taking mag citrate and stirring up yeast'. If there

is

> no constipation problems, then number 2 is less likely. If you

switch

> from magnesium citrate to another form of magnesium and STILL get

the

> same yeast issues, then number 2 is more likely.

>

> .

>

> >>>so perhaps there could be a temporary die off in some people.

> This was posted on the Oxalate list this morning:

> >

> > Therapeutic action of citrate in urolithiasis explained by

chemical

> speciation: increase in pH is the determinant factor.

>

[Guest guest]

WOW - maybe I'm tired but I am having a hard time following this

one. Or maybe it is due to the fact that my little brown eyed

beauty just turned over my glass of red wine onto the white carpet as

I was reading this. (then looked up and smiled at me) AAAAAAAAAA.

Correct me if I am wrong about what you are writing here. We use

the mag citrate form for mag deficiency and also to keep the bowels

moving. We are also chelating and battling yeast almost continually

due to chelation, supplements, and to my dismay, a high carb diet. I

think what you are saying based on this is that the " citrate " is

helpful for oxalates which is a good thing, but that it can increase

yeast due to eliminating constipation?? But if you were able to keep

the bowels flowing well, even if this caused a temporary " shift " in

gut environment which would increase yeast, could this not be

overcome with plenty of probiotic and " continuing to keep the bowels

flowing " ?

I'm a little confused, which is not uncommon, but in any event what

other forms would be as helpful for keeping the bowels regular that

also has good absorption for a deficiency? I have read your site

section on magnesium and found it extremely helpful, however I am a

little unsure now what form I should be using.

Sheresa

>

> Been pubmed-ing today. Two issues on this, each may be useful to

some

> people.

>

> 1. Citrate content can change ph as pointed out, including via

> supplements. The studies have been working out the mechanism in

> recent years on pH and the oxalate issue. What has been determined

is

> that citrate supplements (calcium citrate, magnesium citrate,

> potassium citrate, etc.) can lower pH in the gut so that problem

> oxalate compounds do form as quickly or as frequently. So citrate

can

> reduce the problem oxalate compounds leading to kidney stones and

> similar oxalate problems. It was found that it was the citrate

> portion of these supplements and not the mineral part (the calcium,

> the magnesium, etc).

>

> I'm not sure what this means for those trying the oxalate diet.

> However, as for yeast, a lower pH is noted as tending to favor

yeast.

> So citrate compounds lowering pH may lead to yeast increase. If you

> do not have yeast problem, it isn't likely to start a problem. But

if

> you are struggling with yeast already, it may be better to get a

> different form than citrate for mineral supplements.

>

> And now we have an explanation backed up by related research.

> Thank you, thank you both and for helping out with

this.

> I'll write the Natural Calm folks and see if they have any thoughts

> on this.

>

> 2. This is a different issue than the previous. If you are

magnesium

> deficient and have constipation. Constipation can promote yeast as

> well as bacteria. If you start magnesium citrate or other magnesium

> form, it can relieve the constipation. This disrupts the yeast's

> environment and you can have either yeast increase or die-off as

the

> yeast tries to readjust to the change in internal environment. In

> this case, it wouldn't be the citrate form specifically stirring up

> the yeast, it would be relief in constipation.

>

> Any thoughts on either of these? Two different things which can

both

> be related to 'taking mag citrate and stirring up yeast'. If there

is

> no constipation problems, then number 2 is less likely. If you

switch

> from magnesium citrate to another form of magnesium and STILL get

the

> same yeast issues, then number 2 is more likely.

>

> .

>

> >>>so perhaps there could be a temporary die off in some people.

> This was posted on the Oxalate list this morning:

> >

> > Therapeutic action of citrate in urolithiasis explained by

chemical

> speciation: increase in pH is the determinant factor.

>

[Guest guest]

> > >

> > > Been pubmed-ing today. Two issues on this, each

> > may be useful to

> > some

> > > people.

> > >

> > > 1. Citrate content can change ph as pointed out,

> > including via

> > > supplements. The studies have been working out the

> > mechanism in

> > > recent years on pH and the oxalate issue. What has

> > been determined

> > is

> > > that citrate supplements (calcium citrate,

> > magnesium citrate,

> > > potassium citrate, etc.) can lower pH in the gut

> > so that problem

> > > oxalate compounds do form as quickly or as

> > frequently. So citrate

> > can

> > > reduce the problem oxalate compounds leading to

> > kidney stones and

> > > similar oxalate problems. It was found that it was

> > the citrate

> > > portion of these supplements and not the mineral

> > part (the calcium,

> > > the magnesium, etc).

> > >

> > > I'm not sure what this means for those trying the

> > oxalate diet.

> > > However, as for yeast, a lower pH is noted as

> > tending to favor

> > yeast.

> > > So citrate compounds lowering pH may lead to yeast

> > increase. If you

> > > do not have yeast problem, it isn't likely to

> > start a problem. But

> > if

> > > you are struggling with yeast already, it may be

> > better to get a

> > > different form than citrate for mineral

> > supplements.

> > >

> > > And now we have an explanation backed up by

> > related research.

> > > Thank you, thank you both and for

> > helping out with

> > this.

> > > I'll write the Natural Calm folks and see if they

> > have any thoughts

> > > on this.

> > >

> > > 2. This is a different issue than the previous. If

> > you are

> > magnesium

> > > deficient and have constipation. Constipation can

> > promote yeast as

> > > well as bacteria. If you start magnesium citrate

> > or other magnesium

> > > form, it can relieve the constipation. This

> > disrupts the yeast's

> > > environment and you can have either yeast increase

> > or die-off as

> > the

> > > yeast tries to readjust to the change in internal

> > environment. In

> > > this case, it wouldn't be the citrate form

> > specifically stirring up

> > > the yeast, it would be relief in constipation.

> > >

> > > Any thoughts on either of these? Two different

> > things which can

> > both

> > > be related to 'taking mag citrate and stirring up

> > yeast'. If there

> > is

> > > no constipation problems, then number 2 is less

> > likely. If you

> > switch

> > > from magnesium citrate to another form of

> > magnesium and STILL get

> > the

> > > same yeast issues, then number 2 is more likely.

> > >

> > > .

> > >

> > > >>>so perhaps there could be a temporary die off

> > in some people.

> > > This was posted on the Oxalate list this morning:

> > > >

> > > > Therapeutic action of citrate in urolithiasis

> > explained by

> > chemical

> > > speciation: increase in pH is the determinant

> > factor.

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

--- sbarron6fun <rsbarron@...> wrote:

>

> >

> > To prevent excessive acidity or alkalinity in me

> and

> > the kids I used ph strips to monitor their urine

> and

> > saliva ph. They are cheap and easy to use. I

> found a

> > ph for each kid where their behavior was best.

> This

> > allows me to use the most beneficial citrate form

> and

> > not have yeast issues.

> >

> > ***This is interesting. So how do you adjust

> the ph - by

> changing the amount of " citrate " supplementation up

> and down??

> How often do you monitor?

At first I took as many urine samples and a

correlating saliva sample at the same time as

possible. This meant 4 to 6 times a day. They say

that urine and saliva will be the same but this wasn't

true for my daughter and I. I learned which

behaviors/symptoms were associated with what ph and

tried corrective foods/drinks, dairy is good for

acidifying. I used small amounts of bicarbonate after

meals to correct persisting imbalances. I use bicarb

lightly in the kids though, I use it a lot in myself.

I didn't reduce the citrate because I wanted it in the

diet and adjustment did eventually come.

Info on bicarbonate:

http://www.mgwater.com/bicarb.shtml

>

> http://www.iherb.com/phpaen.html

> >

> > http://tinyurl.com/s3mtq

> >

> > Acid/Alkaline food chart:

> >

> > http://www.thewolfeclinic.com/acidalkfoods.html

> >

> > (Sorry about the wine, did you get it out?)

> >

> NOT ENTIRELY!! Kids are hard on houses aren't

> they??

Very :-)

P

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

You can do it through diet, eating an acid forming

food if too alkaline but the easiest/quickest is to

use is baking soda or bicarbonate:

http://www.armandhammer.com/basics/magic/

As we mentioned, baking soda helps regulate pH—keeping

a substance neither too acidic (sour tasting), nor too

alkaline. Think of pH as a see-saw, with acidic pH

tilting one way, alkaline pH tilting the other way,

and neutral pH when the see-saw is level. When ARM &

HAMMER® Baking Soda comes in contact with either an

acidic or an alkaline substance, it's natural effect

is to neutralize that extreme pH - tilting the see-

saw back toward level. And beyond that, baking soda

has the capability to resist further changes in the pH

balance - keep the see-saw level--this is called

buffering.

But as I mentioned in the other post, I use it

sparingly in the kids. It has been great for me

though.

P

--- " Setlak, Dan & Ruth "

<dan-ruth-setlak@...> wrote:

> How do you manage their pH once you find it out's

> off?

>

> Profit <mrrva@...> wrote: To prevent

> excessive acidity or alkalinity in me and

> the kids I used ph strips to monitor their urine and

> saliva ph. They are cheap and easy to use. I found

> a

> ph for each kid where their behavior was best. This

> allows me to use the most beneficial citrate form

> and

> not have yeast issues.

>

> http://www.iherb.com/phpaen.html

>

> http://tinyurl.com/s3mtq

>

> Acid/Alkaline food chart:

>

> http://www.thewolfeclinic.com/acidalkfoods.html

>

> (Sorry about the wine, did you get it out?)

> P

>

> --- sbarron6fun <rsbarron@...> wrote:

>

> >

> > I'm a little confused, which is not uncommon, but

> in

> > any event what

> > other forms would be as helpful for keeping the

> > bowels regular that

> > also has good absorption for a deficiency? I

> have

> > read your site

> > section on magnesium and found it extremely

> helpful,

> > however I am a

> > little unsure now what form I should be using.

> >

> > Sheresa

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > >

> > > Been pubmed-ing today. Two issues on this, each

> > may be useful to

> > some

> > > people.

> > >

> > > 1. Citrate content can change ph as pointed out,

> > including via

> > > supplements. The studies have been working out

> the

> > mechanism in

> > > recent years on pH and the oxalate issue. What

> has

> > been determined

> > is

> > > that citrate supplements (calcium citrate,

> > magnesium citrate,

> > > potassium citrate, etc.) can lower pH in the gut

> > so that problem

> > > oxalate compounds do form as quickly or as

> > frequently. So citrate

> > can

> > > reduce the problem oxalate compounds leading to

> > kidney stones and

> > > similar oxalate problems. It was found that it

> was

> > the citrate

> > > portion of these supplements and not the mineral

> > part (the calcium,

> > > the magnesium, etc).

> > >

> > > I'm not sure what this means for those trying

> the

> > oxalate diet.

> > > However, as for yeast, a lower pH is noted as

> > tending to favor

> > yeast.

> > > So citrate compounds lowering pH may lead to

> yeast

> > increase. If you

> > > do not have yeast problem, it isn't likely to

> > start a problem. But

> > if

> > > you are struggling with yeast already, it may be

> > better to get a

> > > different form than citrate for mineral

> > supplements.

> > >

> > > And now we have an explanation backed up by

> > related research.

> > > Thank you, thank you both and for

> > helping out with

> > this.

> > > I'll write the Natural Calm folks and see if

> they

> > have any thoughts

> > > on this.

> > >

> > > 2. This is a different issue than the previous.

> If

> > you are

> > magnesium

> > > deficient and have constipation. Constipation

> can

> > promote yeast as

> > > well as bacteria. If you start magnesium citrate

> > or other magnesium

> > > form, it can relieve the constipation. This

> > disrupts the yeast's

> > > environment and you can have either yeast

> increase

> > or die-off as

> > the

> > > yeast tries to readjust to the change in

> internal

> > environment. In

> > > this case, it wouldn't be the citrate form

> > specifically stirring up

> > > the yeast, it would be relief in constipation.

> > >

> > > Any thoughts on either of these? Two different

> > things which can

> > both

> > > be related to 'taking mag citrate and stirring

> up

> > yeast'. If there

> > is

> > > no constipation problems, then number 2 is less

> > likely. If you

> > switch

> > > from magnesium citrate to another form of

> > magnesium and STILL get

> > the

> > > same yeast issues, then number 2 is more likely.

>

> > >

> > > .

> > >

> > > >>>so perhaps there could be a temporary die off

> > in some people.

> > > This was posted on the Oxalate list this

> morning:

> > > >

> > > > Therapeutic action of citrate in urolithiasis

> > explained by

> > chemical

> > > speciation: increase in pH is the determinant

> > factor.

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

thanks for this. It is quite interesting and very ingenious

of you to come up with all this. I'm going to research your links

further. Sheresa

> > >

> > > To prevent excessive acidity or alkalinity in me

> > and

> > > the kids I used ph strips to monitor their urine

> > and

> > > saliva ph. They are cheap and easy to use. I

> > found a

> > > ph for each kid where their behavior was best.

> > This

> > > allows me to use the most beneficial citrate form

> > and

> > > not have yeast issues.

> > >

> > > ***This is interesting. So how do you adjust

> > the ph - by

> > changing the amount of " citrate " supplementation up

> > and down??

> > How often do you monitor?

>

> At first I took as many urine samples and a

> correlating saliva sample at the same time as

> possible. This meant 4 to 6 times a day. They say

> that urine and saliva will be the same but this wasn't

> true for my daughter and I. I learned which

> behaviors/symptoms were associated with what ph and

> tried corrective foods/drinks, dairy is good for

> acidifying. I used small amounts of bicarbonate after

> meals to correct persisting imbalances. I use bicarb

> lightly in the kids though, I use it a lot in myself.

> I didn't reduce the citrate because I wanted it in the

> diet and adjustment did eventually come.

>

> Info on bicarbonate:

>

> http://www.mgwater.com/bicarb.shtml

>

>

> >

> > http://www.iherb.com/phpaen.html

> > >

> > > http://tinyurl.com/s3mtq

> > >

> > > Acid/Alkaline food chart:

> > >

> > > http://www.thewolfeclinic.com/acidalkfoods.html

> > >

> > > (Sorry about the wine, did you get it out?)

> > >

> > NOT ENTIRELY!! Kids are hard on houses aren't

> > they??

>

> Very :-)

>

> P

>

>

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

Trust me, I knew nothing before I joined this network

of moms. I read and put the bits together, apply it

and keep what works.

I owe everything to the moms that shared with me.

Defelice and Dana Atty give in a way that cannot

be measured.

P

--- sbarron6fun <rsbarron@...> wrote:

> thanks for this. It is quite interesting

> and very ingenious

> of you to come up with all this. I'm going to

> research your links

> further. Sheresa

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

I would certainly agree with that. They have helped many of us

tremendously!!

Sheresa

-- In , Profit <mrrva@...>

wrote:

>

> Trust me, I knew nothing before I joined this network

> of moms. I read and put the bits together, apply it

> and keep what works.

>

> I owe everything to the moms that shared with me.

> Defelice and Dana Atty give in a way that cannot

> be measured.

>

> P

>

> --- sbarron6fun <rsbarron@...> wrote:

>

> > thanks for this. It is quite interesting

> > and very ingenious

> > of you to come up with all this. I'm going to

> > research your links

> > further. Sheresa

>

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

>> WOW - maybe I'm tired but I am having a hard time following this

> one.

It's a little 'thick' to read through at first. Two different

unrelated possibilities why citrate supplements may increase yeast in

some people.

>>>Or maybe it is due to the fact that my little brown eyed beauty

just turned over my glass of red wine onto the white carpet as

> I was reading this.

Costs of parenthood that was not explained in any of my parenting

books on what to expect with kids.

>>> Correct me if I am wrong about what you are writing here. We

use the mag citrate form for mag deficiency and also to keep the

bowels moving.

This is why my son still takes magnesium.

>>>We are also chelating and battling yeast almost continually

> due to chelation, supplements, and to my dismay, a high carb diet.

I think what you are saying based on this is that the " citrate " is

> helpful for oxalates which is a good thing, but that it can

increase yeast due to eliminating constipation?? But if you were

able to keep the bowels flowing well, even if this caused a

temporary " shift " in gut environment which would increase yeast,

could this not be overcome with plenty of probiotic and " continuing

to keep the bowels flowing " ?

Yes, for explanation #2, I would think the yeast increase would be

just temporary. After the constipation was resolved and a new microbe

equilibrium reached, you shouldn't have that problem anymore.

> I'm a little confused, which is not uncommon, but in any event what

> other forms would be as helpful for keeping the bowels regular that

> also has good absorption for a deficiency? I have read your site

> section on magnesium and found it extremely helpful, however I am a

> little unsure now what form I should be using.

I use Magnesium Malate. We use Source Naturals but I'll warn you it

is a honker of a horse pill. My son prefers it. Solgar has a mag

malate tablet that is smaller. Malate is supposed to help remove

excess aluminum and has other benefits.

Some people like Magnesium Glycinate. I don't know what the bonus

feature of that form is, but it is mentioned often enough. There are

lots of other forms. Just avoid oxide if you want it absorbed. there

are lots of forms: liquids, capsules, powder, etc.

.