Guest guest Posted April 18, 2006 Report Share Posted April 18, 2006 Hi Anne and everyone. I think this would be a good time for Andy to comment. He is well versed in the principles of mass action and recently quoted from an endocrinology text, so he may have access to all of the information we need. Without any specialized training in endocrinology, I think it is reasonable that given the long half life of both T3 and T4, probably as long as a week for T4, and given that T4 becomes T3 (or RT3) as it is progressively deiodinated, and that both of these are reversibly bound to proteins in amounts at least 100 times the amount of free hormone, that once daily dosing would result in a steady state essentially indistinguishable from that produced by more frequent dosing. Does anyone know if there is a diurnal variation in thyroid levels? If a steady blood level is desirable (which I'm sure it is), what amount of fluctuation about the steady level is acceptable? And finally, for the chemists, given a total daily dose of say 1 grain of Armour thyroid, providing 38 mcg of T4 and 9 mcg of T3, assuming whatever percentage of absorption is appropriate, in a child of 20 kg, how would the serum levels vary? Two disclaimers. First, I know this is kind of off topic for this group, but there seems to be a keen interest in thyroid issues here. Second, it seems that if it is possible to give thyroid less frequently than three times daily, it would be a convenience for everyone. If this is over the top, I apologize and I won't pursue it. Jim ________________________________ From: on behalf of anneecbrynn Sent: Tue 4/18/2006 8:35 PM Subject: [ ] Re: Thyroid Testing - Armour Hi Jim. I was advised to space things out to keep a reasonably steady blood level. I know there was a better, more thorough explanation somewhere that led me to do it this way, but I don't know where off the top of my head. In fact, it was probably from the files section of the NaturalThyroidHormones board. Wow is that board ever active! Dizzying, for sure. I will try to follow up on this tomorrow to get you better information. Thanks. Anne > > > > Anne, > > > > I don't think it would make much difference either way. A single > dose > > is very unlikely to affect serum levels of thyroxine very much > since > > there is such a large reservoir of protein bound hormone, and the > T4-TSH > > axis would take quite a bit longer to respond than a single day. > If > > your purpose in doing the testing is to titrate the dose, it would > make > > sense to administer it as you normally do. > > > > Jim > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: > > [mailto: ] On Behalf Of anneecbrynn > > Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 1:51 PM > > > > Subject: [ ] Thyroid Testing - Armour > > > > > > Hi All, > > > > Has anyone who had their kid on thyroid meds (we are on Armour) > had > > their kid's thyroid retested? I am coming up on this (overdue) > and > > was told by one person that I need to have not supplemented for > the > > test. This makes sense insofar as I don't want an artificially > high > > reading from just having had my kiddo ingest the stuff, but it > also > > doesn't really make sense since this stuff is used daily for > > maintenance purposes. Wouldn't his levels show low if I don't > keep > > doing what I normally do? Does my question make any sense? Would > > appreciate all direction/confirmation that I should not supplement > on > > the morning of testing. > > > > Thanks. > > > > Anne > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ======================================================= > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2006 Report Share Posted April 19, 2006 I would like a discussion of this. I take Armour, I don't know about the half life, but I do know there is some immediate effect from taking it, so I split my dose to make it easier on the adrenals. [ ] Thyroid Testing - Armour > > > > > > Hi All, > > > > Has anyone who had their kid on thyroid meds (we are on Armour) > had > > their kid's thyroid retested? I am coming up on this (overdue) > and > > was told by one person that I need to have not supplemented for > the > > test. This makes sense insofar as I don't want an artificially > high > > reading from just having had my kiddo ingest the stuff, but it > also > > doesn't really make sense since this stuff is used daily for > > maintenance purposes. Wouldn't his levels show low if I don't > keep > > doing what I normally do? Does my question make any sense? Would > > appreciate all direction/confirmation that I should not supplement > on > > the morning of testing. > > > > Thanks. > > > > Anne > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ======================================================= > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2006 Report Share Posted April 19, 2006 Hi, I'm hypothyroid and take usually 25mcg of Elthyrone (this is only T3) at least half an hour before breakfast on an empty stomach. My endocrinologist always told me to take it this way and not taking any vitamins with it since this may intervene with absorption of the Elthyrone. Also it takes 8 to 10 days before a dose is completely vanished in your blood. I'm also advised with blood testing for thyroid function to take a bloodsample on an empty stomach - no pills taken. But this is just mainstream medicine in Belgium. HTH, nadia 2006/4/19, Popplewell <JPopplewell@...>: > Hi Anne and everyone. > > I think this would be a good time for Andy to comment. He is well versed in the principles of mass action and recently quoted from an endocrinology text, so he may have access to all of the information we need. Without any specialized training in endocrinology, I think it is reasonable that given the long half life of both T3 and T4, probably as long as a week for T4, and given that T4 becomes T3 (or RT3) as it is progressively deiodinated, and that both of these are reversibly bound to proteins in amounts at least 100 times the amount of free hormone, that once daily dosing would result in a steady state essentially indistinguishable from that produced by more frequent dosing. Does anyone know if there is a diurnal variation in thyroid levels? If a steady blood level is desirable (which I'm sure it is), what amount of fluctuation about the steady level is acceptable? And finally, for the chemists, given a total daily dose of say 1 grain of Armour thyroid, providing 38 mcg of T4 and 9 mcg of T3, assuming whatever percentage of absorption is appropriate, in a child of 20 kg, how would the serum levels vary? > > Two disclaimers. First, I know this is kind of off topic for this group, but there seems to be a keen interest in thyroid issues here. Second, it seems that if it is possible to give thyroid less frequently than three times daily, it would be a convenience for everyone. If this is over the top, I apologize and I won't pursue it. > > Jim > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2006 Report Share Posted April 19, 2006 I am also very interested in this as we have a strong family history in my husband and my own family. I am waiting for the kids labs to come back and guessing they will need this. > > > > > > Anne, > > > > > > I don't think it would make much difference either way. A > single > > dose > > > is very unlikely to affect serum levels of thyroxine very much > > since > > > there is such a large reservoir of protein bound hormone, and > the > > T4-TSH > > > axis would take quite a bit longer to respond than a single > day. > > If > > > your purpose in doing the testing is to titrate the dose, it > would > > make > > > sense to administer it as you normally do. > > > > > > Jim > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > From: > > > [mailto: ] On Behalf Of anneecbrynn > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 1:51 PM > > > > > > Subject: [ ] Thyroid Testing - Armour > > > > > > > > > Hi All, > > > > > > Has anyone who had their kid on thyroid meds (we are on Armour) > > had > > > their kid's thyroid retested? I am coming up on this (overdue) > > and > > > was told by one person that I need to have not supplemented for > > the > > > test. This makes sense insofar as I don't want an artificially > > high > > > reading from just having had my kiddo ingest the stuff, but it > > also > > > doesn't really make sense since this stuff is used daily for > > > maintenance purposes. Wouldn't his levels show low if I don't > > keep > > > doing what I normally do? Does my question make any sense? > Would > > > appreciate all direction/confirmation that I should not > supplement > > on > > > the morning of testing. > > > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > Anne > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ======================================================= > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2006 Report Share Posted April 19, 2006 I was looking on the net for half life of T4 and T3 but couldn't find it. T4 has to have a long half life because it is ok to dose it once per day. T3 has a short half life, perhaps a couple of hours. When I was taking cytomel (T3 only) I could 'feel' the surges of drug. It was VERY hard on my adrenals. When I switched to sustained release T3 I felt WAY better right away. When I was taking Thyroid (Cdn equiv of armour) I split the dose too. I could feel it if I missed a dose. J > > I would like a discussion of this. I take Armour, I don't know about the half life, but I do know there is some immediate effect from taking it, so I split my dose to make it easier on the adrenals. > > > RE: [ ] Thyroid dosing > > > Hi Anne and everyone. > > I think this would be a good time for Andy to comment. He is well versed in the principles of mass action and recently quoted from an endocrinology text, so he may have access to all of the information we need. Without any specialized training in endocrinology, I think it is reasonable that given the long half life of both T3 and T4, probably as long as a week for T4, and given that T4 becomes T3 (or RT3) as it is progressively deiodinated, and that both of these are reversibly bound to proteins in amounts at least 100 times the amount of free hormone, that once daily dosing would result in a steady state essentially indistinguishable from that produced by more frequent dosing. Does anyone know if there is a diurnal variation in thyroid levels? If a steady blood level is desirable (which I'm sure it is), what amount of fluctuation about the steady level is acceptable? And finally, for the chemists, given a total daily dose of say 1 grain of Armour thyroid, providing 38 mcg of T4 and 9 mcg of T3, assuming whatever percentage of absorption is appropriate, in a child of 20 kg, how would the serum levels vary? > > Two disclaimers. First, I know this is kind of off topic for this group, but there seems to be a keen interest in thyroid issues here. Second, it seems that if it is possible to give thyroid less frequently than three times daily, it would be a convenience for everyone. If this is over the top, I apologize and I won't pursue it. > > Jim > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2006 Report Share Posted April 19, 2006 I too would be interested in a discussion about this. According to the files at the naturalthyroidhormone list, some people do find that once a day works, but most find that mult-dosing works best. According to those files, T3 is short lived. They also point out that multi dosing more closely mimics what our thyroids would do if they worked properly, i.e. our thyroids don't give us one whopping dose of T3 in the morning and then shut off until the next day. All that said, I sure would like to have to do it only once.... Anne > > > > > > Anne, > > > > > > I don't think it would make much difference either way. A > single > > dose > > > is very unlikely to affect serum levels of thyroxine very much > > since > > > there is such a large reservoir of protein bound hormone, and > the > > T4-TSH > > > axis would take quite a bit longer to respond than a single > day. > > If > > > your purpose in doing the testing is to titrate the dose, it > would > > make > > > sense to administer it as you normally do. > > > > > > Jim > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > From: > > > [mailto: ] On Behalf Of anneecbrynn > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 1:51 PM > > > > > > Subject: [ ] Thyroid Testing - Armour > > > > > > > > > Hi All, > > > > > > Has anyone who had their kid on thyroid meds (we are on Armour) > > had > > > their kid's thyroid retested? I am coming up on this (overdue) > > and > > > was told by one person that I need to have not supplemented for > > the > > > test. This makes sense insofar as I don't want an artificially > > high > > > reading from just having had my kiddo ingest the stuff, but it > > also > > > doesn't really make sense since this stuff is used daily for > > > maintenance purposes. Wouldn't his levels show low if I don't > > keep > > > doing what I normally do? Does my question make any sense? > Would > > > appreciate all direction/confirmation that I should not > supplement > > on > > > the morning of testing. > > > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > Anne > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ======================================================= > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2006 Report Share Posted April 19, 2006 Thank you Nadia. I wonder if Armour stays in the blood as long as Elthyrone. Is Elthyrone a synthetic hormone? Anne > > Hi, > > I'm hypothyroid and take usually 25mcg of Elthyrone (this is only T3) > at least half an hour before breakfast on an empty stomach. My > endocrinologist always told me to take it this way and not taking any > vitamins with it since this may intervene with absorption of the > Elthyrone. Also it takes 8 to 10 days before a dose is completely > vanished in your blood. > I'm also advised with blood testing for thyroid function to take a > bloodsample on an empty stomach - no pills taken. > > But this is just mainstream medicine in Belgium. > > HTH, > > nadia > > 2006/4/19, Popplewell <JPopplewell@...>: > > Hi Anne and everyone. > > > > I think this would be a good time for Andy to comment. He is well versed in the principles of mass action and recently quoted from an endocrinology text, so he may have access to all of the information we need. Without any specialized training in endocrinology, I think it is reasonable that given the long half life of both T3 and T4, probably as long as a week for T4, and given that T4 becomes T3 (or RT3) as it is progressively deiodinated, and that both of these are reversibly bound to proteins in amounts at least 100 times the amount of free hormone, that once daily dosing would result in a steady state essentially indistinguishable from that produced by more frequent dosing. Does anyone know if there is a diurnal variation in thyroid levels? If a steady blood level is desirable (which I'm sure it is), what amount of fluctuation about the steady level is acceptable? And finally, for the chemists, given a total daily dose of say 1 grain of Armour thyroid, providing 38 mcg of T4 and 9 mcg of T3, assuming whatever percentage of absorption is appropriate, in a child of 20 kg, how would the serum levels vary? > > > > Two disclaimers. First, I know this is kind of off topic for this group, but there seems to be a keen interest in thyroid issues here. Second, it seems that if it is possible to give thyroid less frequently than three times daily, it would be a convenience for everyone. If this is over the top, I apologize and I won't pursue it. > > > > Jim > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2006 Report Share Posted April 19, 2006 , Thanks for that information. Did you dose your Thyroid 2, 3, 4 times/day? What made you feel best? Anne > > > > I would like a discussion of this. I take Armour, I don't know about > the half life, but I do know there is some immediate effect from > taking it, so I split my dose to make it easier on the adrenals. > > > > > > RE: [ ] Thyroid dosing > > > > > > Hi Anne and everyone. > > > > I think this would be a good time for Andy to comment. He is well > versed in the principles of mass action and recently quoted from an > endocrinology text, so he may have access to all of the information we > need. Without any specialized training in endocrinology, I think it > is reasonable that given the long half life of both T3 and T4, > probably as long as a week for T4, and given that T4 becomes T3 (or > RT3) as it is progressively deiodinated, and that both of these are > reversibly bound to proteins in amounts at least 100 times the amount > of free hormone, that once daily dosing would result in a steady state > essentially indistinguishable from that produced by more frequent > dosing. Does anyone know if there is a diurnal variation in thyroid > levels? If a steady blood level is desirable (which I'm sure it is), > what amount of fluctuation about the steady level is acceptable? And > finally, for the chemists, given a total daily dose of say 1 grain of > Armour thyroid, providing 38 mcg of T4 and 9 mcg of T3, assuming > whatever percentage of absorption is appropriate, in a child of 20 kg, > how would the serum levels vary? > > > > Two disclaimers. First, I know this is kind of off topic for this > group, but there seems to be a keen interest in thyroid issues here. > Second, it seems that if it is possible to give thyroid less > frequently than three times daily, it would be a convenience for > everyone. If this is over the top, I apologize and I won't pursue it. > > > > Jim > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2006 Report Share Posted April 19, 2006 I can definitely tell the difference if I take on an empty stomach, which is recommended. [ ] Re: Thyroid dosing Thank you Nadia. I wonder if Armour stays in the blood as long as Elthyrone. Is Elthyrone a synthetic hormone? Anne > > Hi, > > I'm hypothyroid and take usually 25mcg of Elthyrone (this is only T3) > at least half an hour before breakfast on an empty stomach. My > endocrinologist always told me to take it this way and not taking any > vitamins with it since this may intervene with absorption of the > Elthyrone. Also it takes 8 to 10 days before a dose is completely > vanished in your blood. > I'm also advised with blood testing for thyroid function to take a > bloodsample on an empty stomach - no pills taken. > > But this is just mainstream medicine in Belgium. > > HTH, > > nadia > > 2006/4/19, Popplewell <JPopplewell@...>: > > Hi Anne and everyone. > > > > I think this would be a good time for Andy to comment. He is well versed in the principles of mass action and recently quoted from an endocrinology text, so he may have access to all of the information we need. Without any specialized training in endocrinology, I think it is reasonable that given the long half life of both T3 and T4, probably as long as a week for T4, and given that T4 becomes T3 (or RT3) as it is progressively deiodinated, and that both of these are reversibly bound to proteins in amounts at least 100 times the amount of free hormone, that once daily dosing would result in a steady state essentially indistinguishable from that produced by more frequent dosing. Does anyone know if there is a diurnal variation in thyroid levels? If a steady blood level is desirable (which I'm sure it is), what amount of fluctuation about the steady level is acceptable? And finally, for the chemists, given a total daily dose of say 1 grain of Armour thyroid, providing 38 mcg of T4 and 9 mcg of T3, assuming whatever percentage of absorption is appropriate, in a child of 20 kg, how would the serum levels vary? > > > > Two disclaimers. First, I know this is kind of off topic for this group, but there seems to be a keen interest in thyroid issues here. Second, it seems that if it is possible to give thyroid less frequently than three times daily, it would be a convenience for everyone. If this is over the top, I apologize and I won't pursue it. > > > > Jim > > > ======================================================= Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2006 Report Share Posted April 19, 2006 Elthyrone is a synthetic form of thyroid hormone, it is Levothyroxinum natricum. But I'm mistaking this is a synthetic form of T4. T4 is supposed to stay in your body as a ressource in case your body needs it. T3 is supposed to be directly accessible for the cells, and T4 should be made active and becomes then T3. My endocrinologist doesn't believe supplementing T3 is necessary - he is not " a believer " of this theory. nadia 2006/4/19, anneecbrynn <abrynn@...>: > Thank you Nadia. I wonder if Armour stays in the blood as long as > Elthyrone. Is Elthyrone a synthetic hormone? > > Anne > > > > > > Hi, > > > > I'm hypothyroid and take usually 25mcg of Elthyrone (this is only > T3) > > at least half an hour before breakfast on an empty stomach. My > > endocrinologist always told me to take it this way and not taking > any > > vitamins with it since this may intervene with absorption of the > > Elthyrone. Also it takes 8 to 10 days before a dose is completely > > vanished in your blood. > > I'm also advised with blood testing for thyroid function to take a > > bloodsample on an empty stomach - no pills taken. > > > > But this is just mainstream medicine in Belgium. > > > > HTH, > > > > nadia > > > > 2006/4/19, Popplewell <JPopplewell@...>: > > > Hi Anne and everyone. > > > > > > I think this would be a good time for Andy to comment. He is > well versed in the principles of mass action and recently quoted > from an endocrinology text, so he may have access to all of the > information we need. Without any specialized training in > endocrinology, I think it is reasonable that given the long half > life of both T3 and T4, probably as long as a week for T4, and given > that T4 becomes T3 (or RT3) as it is progressively deiodinated, and > that both of these are reversibly bound to proteins in amounts at > least 100 times the amount of free hormone, that once daily dosing > would result in a steady state essentially indistinguishable from > that produced by more frequent dosing. Does anyone know if there is > a diurnal variation in thyroid levels? If a steady blood level is > desirable (which I'm sure it is), what amount of fluctuation about > the steady level is acceptable? And finally, for the chemists, > given a total daily dose of say 1 grain of Armour thyroid, providing > 38 mcg of T4 and 9 mcg of T3, assuming whatever percentage of > absorption is appropriate, in a child of 20 kg, how would the serum > levels vary? > > > > > > Two disclaimers. First, I know this is kind of off topic for > this group, but there seems to be a keen interest in thyroid issues > here. Second, it seems that if it is possible to give thyroid less > frequently than three times daily, it would be a convenience for > everyone. If this is over the top, I apologize and I won't pursue > it. > > > > > > Jim > > > > > > > > > > > > ======================================================= > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2006 Report Share Posted April 19, 2006 > > > > > > > > I was looking on the net for half life of T4 and T3 but couldn't > find > > it. T4 has to have a long half life because it is ok to dose it > once > > per day. T3 has a short half life, perhaps a couple of hours. > When I > > was taking cytomel (T3 only) I could 'feel' the surges of drug. It > > was VERY hard on my adrenals. When I switched to sustained > release T3 > > I felt WAY better right away. > > > > When I was taking Thyroid (Cdn equiv of armour) I split the dose > too. > > I could feel it if I missed a dose. > > > > J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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