Guest guest Posted March 22, 2006 Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 Dear All, I posted a few days ago that our DAN Dr. uses the Buttar Protocal for chelation. Before we go in for our appointment which will be the beginning of chelation, I need to get a few things straight, especially hearing some discomfort over the idea of this particular protocal. Why would you use DMSA over DMPS if the latter is thought to be more effective in getting out the Hg? Is DMPS really more toxic? Is one better than the other if the child has high copper levels in his blood which our son does (extremely high)? Thanks for any input, Meg (mom to 7 yr old PDD-NOS twins) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2006 Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 I need help with this one too as I need to make a decision in the next couple of weeks. Here is what I have heard regarding DMSA: -FDA approved- -Chelator of choice for most ASD kids- -Only chelator for lead- -Is " safer " because it is " less toxic " than DMPS- -More effective because it crosses the blood-brain barrier and removes mercury within the brain- Here is what I have heard regarding DMPS(from Dr. Buttar who has a stake in TD-DMPS ): -More effective than DMSA by a ratio of 10 to 1 because DMPS is " nuerofillic " -- it gets into the nerves and causes an " intracellular depletion of mercury " - -No need to cross blood / brain barrier because the DMPS will eventually get to all mercury which is self-hydrogroup.- -If DMSA crosses the blood-brain barrier, how do we know it is not putting mercury into the brain? Since DMPS does not cross the blood-brain barrier, it is safer- -Dr. Buttar has " never seen DMSA work " . (I find this one hard to believe)- -Dr. Buttar states that everyone " has benefitted to some extent " when using DMPS- -------------------------------------------------------------------- Therefore, I'm confused. With the information I learned, I think DMPS is more effective -- unless a person has lead poisoning. Not sure what to do now. I really would like to hear experieinced others chime in. oregonscrappers <meganrallen@...> wrote: Dear All, I posted a few days ago that our DAN Dr. uses the Buttar Protocal for chelation. Before we go in for our appointment which will be the beginning of chelation, I need to get a few things straight, especially hearing some discomfort over the idea of this particular protocal. Why would you use DMSA over DMPS if the latter is thought to be more effective in getting out the Hg? Is DMPS really more toxic? Is one better than the other if the child has high copper levels in his blood which our son does (extremely high)? Thanks for any input, Meg (mom to 7 yr old PDD-NOS twins) ======================================================= Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2006 Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 Some people are probably saying there are concerns about the dosing schedule Buttar uses. Others are possibly referring to concerns about TD vs. oral. Some would use DMSA vs. DMPS because DMSA chelates both mercury (from the body) and lead. S S Dear All,<BR> <BR> I posted a few days ago that our DAN Dr. uses the Buttar Protocal for <BR> chelation. Before we go in for our appointment which will be the <BR> beginning of chelation, I need to get a few things straight, <BR> especially hearing some discomfort over the idea of this particular <BR> protocal.<BR> <BR> Why would you use DMSA over DMPS if the latter is thought to be more <BR> effective in getting out the Hg? Is DMPS really more toxic? Is one <BR> better than the other if the child has high copper levels in his blood <BR> which our son does (extremely high)?<BR> <BR> Thanks for any input,<BR> <BR> Meg (mom to 7 yr old PDD-NOS twins)<BR> _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2006 Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 Hi Abid Actually, neither DMSA nor DMPS cross the BBB, according to Andy and many others on this list. You need ALA for that. Call me a grade A cynic, but since Dr. Buttar does have a big financial stake in making TD-DMPS the chelator of choice for autistic kids, I would assess most of his claims for TD-DMPS the same way I would look at any other marketing information: huge chunks of salt required :-). Many have used DMPS successfully, it is a recognized chelator, but in my opinion the success you willl have with any chelator has more to do with choosing the right dose and timing. take care René > > I need help with this one too as I need to make a decision in the next couple of weeks. > > Here is what I have heard regarding DMSA: > > -FDA approved- > -Chelator of choice for most ASD kids- > -Only chelator for lead- > -Is " safer " because it is " less toxic " than DMPS- > -More effective because it crosses the blood-brain barrier and removes mercury within the brain- > > > Here is what I have heard regarding DMPS(from Dr. Buttar who has a stake in TD-DMPS ): > > -More effective than DMSA by a ratio of 10 to 1 because DMPS is " nuerofillic " -- it gets into the nerves and causes an " intracellular depletion of mercury " - > -No need to cross blood / brain barrier because the DMPS will eventually get to all mercury which is self-hydrogroup.- > -If DMSA crosses the blood-brain barrier, how do we know it is not putting mercury into the brain? Since DMPS does not cross the blood-brain barrier, it is safer- > -Dr. Buttar has " never seen DMSA work " . (I find this one hard to believe)- > -Dr. Buttar states that everyone " has benefitted to some extent " when using DMPS- > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2006 Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 Hi Abid, My comments are interspersed. > -FDA approved- This, FWIW, is true. > -Chelator of choice for most ASD kids Many kids are on it. Many kids have recovered in part because of it. > -Only chelator for lead. I wouldn't say this is entirely true, but DMSA works great for lead. > -Is " safer " because it is " less toxic " than DMPS DMSA is safe to use for the vast majority of people, if you choose to ignore the recommended dosing and use the AC protocol. > -More effective because it crosses the blood-brain barrier and removes mercury within the brain This isn't true. There is one rodent study that I am aware of that seems to indicate that chelation will lower the brain burden of mercury to some degree (but not by crossing the BBB). However, there are also tons of studies that show through autopsies that even people who are good excretors will have lots of mercury in their brains, and the more they've been exposed to mercury, the more mercury they will have in their brain. It's a pretty straightforward formula. Our kids will be exposed to metals for the rest of their lives and they are, needless to say, starting out at a disadvantage. We all know what these metals do to brains. I want to give my son the best chance he has: a clean slate. To me, this means I won't rely on the DMSA to do the brain-clearing work. I use ALA. It is a compound which can cross the BBB. > > > Here is what I have heard regarding DMPS(from Dr. Buttar who has a stake in TD-DMPS ): > > -More effective than DMSA by a ratio of 10 to 1 because DMPS is " nuerofillic " -- it gets into the nerves and causes an " intracellular depletion of mercury " - > -No need to cross blood / brain barrier because the DMPS will eventually get to all mercury which is self-hydrogroup. I cannot tell you if these things are true or not, but I do wonder about the validity of his comments when I read that Dr. Buttar has " never seen DMSA work " . Every time the DAN! movement brings out recovered kids, at least some of them have been recovered using DMSA. - > -If DMSA crosses the blood-brain barrier, how do we know it is not putting mercury into the brain? Since DMPS does not cross the blood-brain barrier, it is safer Again, if Dr. Buttar is saying that DMSA crosses the BBB, I find it hard to accept his other statements without skepticism. - > -Dr. Buttar has " never seen DMSA work " . (I find this one hard to believe)- > -Dr. Buttar states that everyone " has benefitted to some extent " when using DMPS That is not true. I've read a few pretty bad stories about people using TD-DMPS. NOt all kids tolerate it. I've also read many more stories about kids doing very badly on his every other day protocol. However, DMPS is a good chelator for many people and some people like very much the TD version. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- --- > > > Therefore, I'm confused. With the information I learned, I think DMPS is more effective -- unless a person has lead poisoning. Not sure what to do now. I really would like to hear experieinced others chime in. > It is good to think these things through. However, if you use DMPS or DMSA on a good schedule with appropriate doses and apppropriate supplementation your child will probably do well. If it turns out that lead is a problem, I would definitely recommend the DMSA. Actually, I would recommend the DMSA anyway as a starting point. It's cheaper, more widely used, and a ton of kids, ASD or not, have lead problems. You may also want to consider the ALA as part of your protocol for the reasons I've mentioned above. Best wishes, Anita Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 All of the information here is my personal opinion only. > Here is what I have heard regarding DMSA: > > -FDA approved- This makes me feel *really* comfortable [heavy sarcasm]. > -Chelator of choice for most ASD kids- Depends on who you ask. My chelator of choice was ALA. > -Only chelator for lead- I disagree with this. > -Is " safer " because it is " less toxic " than DMPS- I tend to agree that DMSA is safer than DMPS, altho I don't know why. > -More effective because it crosses the blood-brain barrier and removes mercury within the brain- I disagree with this. > Here is what I have heard regarding DMPS(from Dr. Buttar who has a stake in TD-DMPS ): Always know the source of the info! > -More effective than DMSA by a ratio of 10 to 1 because DMPS is " nuerofillic " -- it gets into the nerves and causes an " intracellular depletion of mercury " - Ask how he determined that ratio. > -No need to cross blood / brain barrier because the DMPS will eventually get to all mercury which is self-hydrogroup.- If mercury is in the brain, I would want to know exactly how this is supposed to help eliminate it. > -If DMSA crosses the blood-brain barrier, how do we know it is not putting mercury into the brain? Since DMPS does not cross the blood-brain barrier, it is safer- Might be safer, but also does not appear to get the brain mercury out. > -Dr. Buttar has " never seen DMSA work " . (I find this one hard to believe)- This would tell me he does not have sufficient experience in treating autistic kids. The use of words like " always " and " never " makes me distrust people. Dana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 24, 2006 Report Share Posted March 24, 2006 What is the AC protocal??? Anita Kugelstadt <mysuperteach@...> wrote: Hi Abid, My comments are interspersed. > -FDA approved- This, FWIW, is true. > -Chelator of choice for most ASD kids Many kids are on it. Many kids have recovered in part because of it. > -Only chelator for lead. I wouldn't say this is entirely true, but DMSA works great for lead. > -Is " safer " because it is " less toxic " than DMPS DMSA is safe to use for the vast majority of people, if you choose to ignore the recommended dosing and use the AC protocol. > -More effective because it crosses the blood-brain barrier and removes mercury within the brain This isn't true. There is one rodent study that I am aware of that seems to indicate that chelation will lower the brain burden of mercury to some degree (but not by crossing the BBB). However, there are also tons of studies that show through autopsies that even people who are good excretors will have lots of mercury in their brains, and the more they've been exposed to mercury, the more mercury they will have in their brain. It's a pretty straightforward formula. Our kids will be exposed to metals for the rest of their lives and they are, needless to say, starting out at a disadvantage. We all know what these metals do to brains. I want to give my son the best chance he has: a clean slate. To me, this means I won't rely on the DMSA to do the brain-clearing work. I use ALA. It is a compound which can cross the BBB. > > > Here is what I have heard regarding DMPS(from Dr. Buttar who has a stake in TD-DMPS ): > > -More effective than DMSA by a ratio of 10 to 1 because DMPS is " nuerofillic " -- it gets into the nerves and causes an " intracellular depletion of mercury " - > -No need to cross blood / brain barrier because the DMPS will eventually get to all mercury which is self-hydrogroup. I cannot tell you if these things are true or not, but I do wonder about the validity of his comments when I read that Dr. Buttar has " never seen DMSA work " . Every time the DAN! movement brings out recovered kids, at least some of them have been recovered using DMSA. - > -If DMSA crosses the blood-brain barrier, how do we know it is not putting mercury into the brain? Since DMPS does not cross the blood-brain barrier, it is safer Again, if Dr. Buttar is saying that DMSA crosses the BBB, I find it hard to accept his other statements without skepticism. - > -Dr. Buttar has " never seen DMSA work " . (I find this one hard to believe)- > -Dr. Buttar states that everyone " has benefitted to some extent " when using DMPS That is not true. I've read a few pretty bad stories about people using TD-DMPS. NOt all kids tolerate it. I've also read many more stories about kids doing very badly on his every other day protocol. However, DMPS is a good chelator for many people and some people like very much the TD version. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- --- > > > Therefore, I'm confused. With the information I learned, I think DMPS is more effective -- unless a person has lead poisoning. Not sure what to do now. I really would like to hear experieinced others chime in. > It is good to think these things through. However, if you use DMPS or DMSA on a good schedule with appropriate doses and apppropriate supplementation your child will probably do well. If it turns out that lead is a problem, I would definitely recommend the DMSA. Actually, I would recommend the DMSA anyway as a starting point. It's cheaper, more widely used, and a ton of kids, ASD or not, have lead problems. You may also want to consider the ALA as part of your protocol for the reasons I've mentioned above. Best wishes, Anita ======================================================= Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 > > How to decide between DMSA & DMPS? If there's lead, you need DMSA. Other than that, people choose DMSA sometimes because they're giving ALA so the schedule is the same. Some people start with DMPS because you don't have to interrupt sleep -- a big bonus if you do well on it. The only required chelator is ALA because it's the only one that gets mercury out of the brain. > > My 13yo has had both in past years. The DMSA was very hard on his > gut, it seemed. Yeast got worse, no real improvements noted, > although his recent hair test (hopefully someone can help with > that...) improved since the last 5yrs ago (he met all the counting > rules then; now he doesn't seem to meet any, but he's still VERY > autistic). It sounds like ALA is just what he needs. It takes a long time. Nell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 > > Nell, > > You used mostly ALA, right? What dose did you start with? What did > you end with? I used DMSA about half the time (that lead...). I don't have my notes with me, but I think I started at 6 mgs ALA and added 6 mgs DMSA, and the last bunch of rounds were either 50 mgs ALA or 50 mgs ALA + 50 mgs DMSA. He's 9 and I have no idea what he weighs now, lol. I'm about to start some high-dose rounds to see what happens. Nell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 If you can open the files where I put their hair tests, you can see the 13yo is actually the only one w/o lead, oddly enough. Two of the others have a little bit of a line in the green, & 2yo has a longer line but still in the green. Would they need DMSA becz of that? Thanks, Michele > > > > How to decide between DMSA & DMPS? > > If there's lead, you need DMSA. Other than that, people choose DMSA sometimes because > they're giving ALA so the schedule is the same. Some people start with DMPS because you > don't have to interrupt sleep -- a big bonus if you do well on it. > > The only required chelator is ALA because it's the only one that gets mercury out of the > brain. > > > > My 13yo has had both in past years. The DMSA was very hard on his > > gut, it seemed. Yeast got worse, no real improvements noted, > > although his recent hair test (hopefully someone can help with > > that...) improved since the last 5yrs ago (he met all the counting > > rules then; now he doesn't seem to meet any, but he's still VERY > > autistic). > > It sounds like ALA is just what he needs. It takes a long time. > > Nell > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 Thanks, Nell. Good luck with the high dose rounds! Anne > > > > Nell, > > > > You used mostly ALA, right? What dose did you start with? What did > > you end with? > > I used DMSA about half the time (that lead...). I don't have my notes with me, but I think I > started at 6 mgs ALA and added 6 mgs DMSA, and the last bunch of rounds were either 50 > mgs ALA or 50 mgs ALA + 50 mgs DMSA. He's 9 and I have no idea what he weighs now, lol. > > I'm about to start some high-dose rounds to see what happens. > > Nell > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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