Re: Joined today-Greetings from Ginny

[Guest guest]

Hi Ginny. Glad to 'meet' you.

And hello to all the newcomers here that I didn't get to welcome

individually!

What a nightmare you have been through.

And what an invasive feeling to have all of your internet postings, blogs,

etc. be read and haunted by your daughter!

I had a similar situation a few years back (but less upsetting), with a

relative of mine online, and she was sending me hurtful messages, and haunting

a

support group chat that I belonged to. The feeling was horrible, in that

here was a place that I was going to for support, and in came the 'enemy'!

Although I know your daughter is not really 'the enemy', I lack for a better

word.

I have fears of things like this happening to me again! Which is why I

don't use my real name here in the group, even though my daughter does not have

access to internet, I'm afraid that another relative might show her the group,

and then start trouble. I trust the people here, but you never know, you

know?

In any case, I'm glad you feel safe enough to share, and wanted to say hello.

I'm known here as ...

Blondie

In a message dated 3/26/2006 3:36:53 P.M. Central Standard Time,

imajgin@... writes:

Hi, I am 59 and have owned a copy of Stop Walking on Eggshells for several

years because

my mother has BPD. She has been receiving treatment from mental health

professionals

for over 50 years. But I am not here because of my mother. I am here because

I have

become convinced that my 39 year old daughter has BPD too. This is something

I haven't

wanted to believe but recent and past events seem to make it likely that she

does have

BPD.

My daughter, Robin, estranged herself from me ten years ago when she got

angry at me. I

had been trying to get her to participate more in our relationship. To

reciprocate. But she

took everything that I said and interpreted it in the most negative way. I

was shocked,

puzzled, hurt, and angry. When I suggested that we go together to a

therapist for joint

counseling, she took this as an insult and told me she never wanted to see

me again.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/26/2006 4:36:52 PM Eastern Standard Time,

imajgin@... writes:

I have found it interesting that my statement of accepting her

decisions seems to make her angrier.

Anyway, here I am. I need a place to talk about this sometimes.

Ginny

Welcome Ginny, you've come to a good place. Funny when you say this, that

your daughter gets angrier, this is the way my mother is. I am convinced my

mother is Bipolar.

The other traits of your daughter do sound narcisstic. I think many

disorders overlap. My daughter was BPD, but also histrionic and a little

narcisstic.

But no bipolar that I could see.

Like you said, there really isn't anything you can do for your daughter.

Just keep setting your boundaries with her. She will only come around when she

is ready and wants to.

Nothing you do or say will bring her around. You can only take care of

yourself. I do feel for you, the feelings of loss and grief, and anger and

frustration. They do go away, but only if and when your daughter decides that

she

really needs the help to get better.

Hugs,

DebbieL

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/27/2006 8:46:17 AM Eastern Standard Time,

imajgin@... writes:

And I really

really don't like it that she appears to enjoy hurting me.

Ginny

Like I posted earlier, bipolar dotes on this. My mother I felt truly derived

great joy in hurting others. She did the worst damage to my father, so much

so that HE wound up in a psych hosp. She served him divorce papers while he

was there. Cruelest of cruelties. He suffers from depression and anxiety.

The depression he was born with, the anxiety delivered at the hands of my

mother. Growing up, she was like a box of chocolates.... we never knew what we

were

gonna get! I haven't spoken to her in about 5-6 years now. I feel better.

DebbieL

[Guest guest]

Hi Blondie,

Thanks for your hello!

I think I'm pretty safe from her looking here because the last thing she'd want

to think

about is whether she has BPD. I think she's had a longtime fear of mental

illness because

of her grandmother's condition and behavior. While she can say that she has

bipolar

disorder, to get her mind around the idea of having the same disorder that her

grandmother has would be tough! Even if it's occurred to her in the tiniest way,

I'm sure

she'd back away from the thought as quickly as she could. I haven't suggested it

to her. I

don't think any of her relatives on her father's side of the family would

suggest anything

like BPD.

You make a good point though about using a different name. I may still do that.

It would

be safer.

I had hoped that our estrangement was due to other reasons that might have been

" fixable " . Like her father's influence. He is my bitter ex and has refused to

speak to me for

over 20 years. Or her husband's influence but I only wondered about my SIL

because I was

reaching for any reason that might explain her anger at me. I have never had a

cross word

with my SIL. Eight years ago he told me that he couldn't mention me to her in a

supportive

manner because he was afraid of her anger and that she would stop speaking to

him if he

did.

Initially when she discovered me on the internet, I naively thought that the

renewed

contact might lead to a reconciliation. Then it became apparent that the renewed

contact

was an opportunity for her to hurt me. What has been very troubling to me is

that she

seems to enjoy hurting me. She actually seems to experience pleasure at it.

Which is hard

for me to understand.

My mother's behavior over the years has been to turn on those who have been

particularly

nice to her, including me. I don't know a lot about what my daughter has been

doing in

the last ten years so I don't know if she has done that to others in her life. I

do know that

her response to me trying to be positive or loving is to respond with profanity

and cruelty.

Before she contacted me last fall, I had developed some thicker skin regarding

our

estrangement and was in good place emotionally. Since being in touch with her in

the last

few months, my mind has felt like it is being taken over by thoughts of how much

she

dislikes me and how this estrangement will never have a good ending and how much

she

enjoys hurting me. I am wondering if I have returned to the " Land of Oz " ?

I know how my mother has been. I am wondering if my daughter will ever get a

diagnosis

and treatment? I have become very pessimistic about the possibility of a

reconciliation

since I know what being in a relationship with someone with BPD can be like. And

I really

really don't like it that she appears to enjoy hurting me.

Ginny

>

>

> Hi Ginny. Glad to 'meet' you.

> And hello to all the newcomers here that I didn't get to welcome

> individually!

>

> What a nightmare you have been through.

> And what an invasive feeling to have all of your internet postings, blogs,

> etc. be read and haunted by your daughter!

> I had a similar situation a few years back (but less upsetting), with a

> relative of mine online, and she was sending me hurtful messages, and

haunting a

> support group chat that I belonged to. The feeling was horrible, in that

> here was a place that I was going to for support, and in came the 'enemy'!

> Although I know your daughter is not really 'the enemy', I lack for a better

> word.

>

> I have fears of things like this happening to me again! Which is why I

> don't use my real name here in the group, even though my daughter does not

have

> access to internet, I'm afraid that another relative might show her the

group,

> and then start trouble. I trust the people here, but you never know, you

> know?

>

> In any case, I'm glad you feel safe enough to share, and wanted to say hello.

>

> I'm known here as ...

> Blondie

>

>

> In a message dated 3/26/2006 3:36:53 P.M. Central Standard Time,

> imajgin@... writes:

>

> Hi, I am 59 and have owned a copy of Stop Walking on Eggshells for several

> years because

> my mother has BPD. She has been receiving treatment from mental health

> professionals

> for over 50 years. But I am not here because of my mother. I am here because

> I have

> become convinced that my 39 year old daughter has BPD too.

[Guest guest]

Sorry, Ginny,

Your statement that you accept her estrangement is bothering her because after

her initial outburst, she probably forgot all about it and was ready to accept

you into her life again, on her terms.

When someone does something they cannot control, they're not very happy about

it!!!

Carol

-------------- Original message --------------

> Hi, I am 59 and have owned a copy of Stop Walking on Eggshells for several

years

> because

> my mother has BPD. She has been receiving treatment from mental health

> professionals

> for over 50 years. But I am not here because of my mother. I am here because I

> have

> become convinced that my 39 year old daughter has BPD too. This is something I

> haven't

> wanted to believe but recent and past events seem to make it likely that she

> does have

> BPD.

>

> My daughter, Robin, estranged herself from me ten years ago when she got angry

> at me. I

> had been trying to get her to participate more in our relationship. To

> reciprocate. But she

> took everything that I said and interpreted it in the most negative way. I was

> shocked,

> puzzled, hurt, and angry. When I suggested that we go together to a therapist

> for joint

> counseling, she took this as an insult and told me she never wanted to see me

> again. That

> devastated me. I was unable to communicate with her since then. She wouldn't

> talk to me

> on the phone. She wouldn't respond.

>

> Last fall Robin had an argument with her father and stepmother which resulted

in

> her

> estranging herself from them too. She then discovered writings of mine on the

> internet

> where I talked about the estrangement from her. She flew into a rage, which

was

> easy

> since she was already in a rage at her father and stepmother, and emailed me,

> telling me

> how much she didn't love me and how vile and revolting I was. She also joined

an

> internet

> discussion group on estrangements where I was one of the first members.

>

> Trying to keep this long story from being too long so won't go through all the

> details. She

> wouldn't address me directly on the discussion group but began to tell stories

> about her

> parents and how we had let her down in one way or another. Most of those in

the

> group

> soon learned that we were mother and daughter. I didn't respond to her posts

for

> a time

> but then as the stories got worse and worse, it appeared she was " upping the

> ante " to

> where she said that I thought she was an " accident " and that she was the " bane

> of my

> existence " . To this I did respond as lovingly as possible to assure her that

> this wasn't true.

> I responded using SWOE's suggestions for how to validate someone's feelings

> while letting

> them know that you accept that they are adults and entitled to make their own

> decisions.

>

> The upshot of my efforts were that I received a profane email from her. Online

> her posts

> on that group were civil but not addressed to me directly. She continued with

> her negative

> spin on reality. There were people in the group who did not know the truth of

> what was

> occurring who thought I was the bad guy. All of this was really disturbing and

> upsetting to

> me and the profane email was abusive. The only way out of the situation, which

> no longer

> felt safe to me, was to leave the group which I did.

>

> Currently, I am probably in a " fortunate " position of not having her directly

in

> my life. She

> lives hundreds of miles away. She is married and has had good jobs in the

past.

> She is

> currently self employed and has moved to a new house in a new state. Her MIL,

> whom she

> has said that she loved, died in January. I think she has been under a lot of

> stress in the

> last six months with several losses and the move.

>

> She is visiting my online blog every day, sometimes as much as 12 times a day.

I

> have her

> blocked from commenting on it because of her verbal abuse. She did comment on

it

> in the

> past anonymously but I figured out from the IP number in my site statistics

that

> it was her

> and confronted her about it and then blocked her.

>

> Recently I have made it clear to her that I have accepted her decision to

> estrange herself

> and that she is entitled to make her own decisions. It seems that the more I

> have said this,

> the angrier she has gotten. I have left her alone. Then she emails me to tell

me

> to leave

> her alone. I am not emailing her or responding to her emails.

>

> Online I am changing the way that I write my posts so that she would have a

hard

> time

> taking them personally. I am trying hard not to engage her.

>

> Having had a mother with BPD and having witnessed all that there is to that, I

> never

> expected that my daughter would have BPD. Robin was moody as a teenager and

some

> things happened that I didn't find out till much later but I never thought

till

> recently that

> BPD was the problem. She has said recently that she has bipolar disorder. But

I

> don't know

> if she is getting treatment and what kind of treatment that she is getting.

She

> has been

> very anti-mental health people. If she does have BPD and someone tells her

that

> she does,

> she is going to be one very unhappy angry person (which she already appears to

> be)

> because she dislikes her grandmother who has BPD very much and she knows how

> crazy

> her grandmother acts. She would not like to have the same condition. I think

she

> would be

> horrified. But it is possible that she suspects it and fears it.

>

> Unlike my mother, Robin hasn't shown signs of chronic suicide threats and

> attempts. But

> Robin has done things like overeat, overspend, goes into rages, does impulsive

> risky

> things, feels like she is the center of attention whether she is or not, has a

> remarkably

> creative memory, feels like a victim, sees things in black and white terms,

> can't recognize

> that someone loves her unless they are constantly physically present, can't

> reciprocate in a

> relationship, isolates herself. I have wondered at times whether it is NPD but

> with my

> mother's history and Robin's recent behavior, I am thinking that genetics may

> have played

> its part and that she has drawn an unlucky card.

>

> I know there is little or nothing I can do to help her. I think her husband

has

> been

> humoring her for years. I have found it interesting that my statement of

> accepting her

> decisions seems to make her angrier.

>

> Anyway, here I am. I need a place to talk about this sometimes.

>

> Ginny

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help, @....

SEND

> HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT RESPOND ONLINE.

>

> Essential reading to help you feel better and understand the BP in your life

> are:

>

> • SWOE ( " Stop Walking on Eggshells”) and the SWOE Workbook (for everyone)

> • HOPE FOR PARENTS

>

> Call 888-35-SHELL () to order your copies.

>

> From Randi Kreger, Owner of BPDCentral and the WTO Online Community

>

>

[Guest guest]

Debbie, The difference between my daughter and my mother is that my mother

appeared

to experience shame. My mother would alternate. She would send me something

appalling

and then she would send me something sweet. Then appalling, then sweet. Back and

forth.

My daughter is in one mode. Appalling, appalliing, appalling. No sweet. Except

when she

posts in public. Then she hides the meanest parts although a reader can still

detect that

she is feeling amused when it isn't really appropriate to be feeling amused.

In her seventies my mother and I were on better terms for a while. This followed

my

receiving therapy for issues relating to growing up as the child of alcoholic

parents and my

confronting my mother's brother for covert sexual abuse when I was a child. For

a time my

mother seemed to come to the shocking realization that she had a DAUGHTER.

Before then

my mother seemed to consider me a sort of inadequate mother to her.For me prior

to then

it was like having two daughters. One of them just happened to be my mother.

So for ten years my mother acted towards me as though she felt like a mother.

This was a

different experience for me and I enjoyed the lack of hostility from her. She

continued to

act towards other relatives in the same way she had. Manipulating them. Becoming

abusive

when they couldn't do something for her. Alternately welcoming and rejecting

them. After

ten years she went back to this way of behaving towards me too. It was as though

the ten

years hadn't happened. She had been going to 12 step groups and then stopped

which

probably contributed to her reverting to old behaviors towards me. So we aren't

in contact

now and I'm sad that our relationship couldn't have continued as it had been for

that ten

years.

As for bipolar disorder, I don't know if my mother ever was diagnosed with that

too. I have

read that many of those with BPD do have bipolar disorder. I have known people

in the rest

of my life who have bipolar disorder and some were abusive to others. I think

one guy that

my husband and I knew might have felt pleasure when he was abusive to others. I

think it

is a challenging disorder all on its own even without any BPD.

Ginny

>

> In a message dated 3/27/2006 8:46:17 AM Eastern Standard Time,

> imajgin@... writes:

> And I really

> really don't like it that she appears to enjoy hurting me.

>

> Ginny

> Like I posted earlier, bipolar dotes on this. My mother I felt truly derived

> great joy in hurting others. ...snip... I haven't spoken to her in about 5-6

years now. I

feel better.

>

> DebbieL

[Guest guest]

Carol, No kidding! I hadn't thought of that. It is so illogical that she would

call me names

and tell me in no uncertain terms to get lost using four letter words of the f

kind that she

could think that I would want her to be around when this is how she acts? I

guess that is

BPD logic. I understand what you're saying. It just hadn't occurred to me that

way.

My mother had done this sort of thing too but with less swearing.

I think my daughter has herself boxed into a corner. She doesn't seem to be

willing to

communicate with me without denigrating me and I am not willing to listen to

being

denigrated.

I don't know if she wants to communicate with me so that she can denigrate me or

does

she want to communicate with me for some more positive reason? Maybe she doesn't

even

know at this point.

Ginny

>

> Sorry, Ginny,

>

> Your statement that you accept her estrangement is bothering her because after

her

initial outburst, she probably forgot all about it and was ready to accept you

into her life

again, on her terms.

>

> When someone does something they cannot control, they're not very happy about

it!!!

>

> Carol

>

[Guest guest]

Ginny,

I'm sorry you are hurting. It does seem that they like to hurt.

Easy for me to say, but please don't take it personally. She's the one with the

problem. Take the high road. Let her go on and on, and when she's hurting you,

it's time to go. After a while, they get the hint.

My daughter was great at pushing my buttons until I didn't let her push anymore.

When there was no payoff for her, her bad behavior towards me stopped.

She still does things that are hurtful to others, like " wisk " the baby away from

me months earlier than she left; then she wanted to " whisk " her back to us to do

the hurting on the other end.

How I approach it, is they are the ones really hurting and lost inside. We have

healthier thoughts and our lives, relationships and other loved ones around.

They then act as if nothing happend. And, I try to, too. I try to find

positives in her behavior and make note of them to her -- what she is doing

well. I'm sure she doesn't see it -- she thinks I disapprove of everything she

is and does -- but I do see some positive signs. It's easier when we don't live

with them and their depressed ways of doing nothing.

I know it hurts -- please look at it factually -- she isn't well. We can do our

part by not encouraging such behaviors and being as consistent as possible in

our behaviors with them so they know they're not going to get away with it.

Carol

-------------- Original message --------------

> Hi Blondie,

>

> Thanks for your hello!

>

> I think I'm pretty safe from her looking here because the last thing she'd

want

> to think

> about is whether she has BPD. I think she's had a longtime fear of mental

> illness because

> of her grandmother's condition and behavior. While she can say that she has

> bipolar

> disorder, to get her mind around the idea of having the same disorder that her

> grandmother has would be tough! Even if it's occurred to her in the tiniest

way,

> I'm sure

> she'd back away from the thought as quickly as she could. I haven't suggested

it

> to her. I

> don't think any of her relatives on her father's side of the family would

> suggest anything

> like BPD.

>

> You make a good point though about using a different name. I may still do

that.

> It would

> be safer.

>

> I had hoped that our estrangement was due to other reasons that might have

been

> " fixable " . Like her father's influence. He is my bitter ex and has refused to

> speak to me for

> over 20 years. Or her husband's influence but I only wondered about my SIL

> because I was

> reaching for any reason that might explain her anger at me. I have never had a

> cross word

> with my SIL. Eight years ago he told me that he couldn't mention me to her in

a

> supportive

> manner because he was afraid of her anger and that she would stop speaking to

> him if he

> did.

>

> Initially when she discovered me on the internet, I naively thought that the

> renewed

> contact might lead to a reconciliation. Then it became apparent that the

renewed

> contact

> was an opportunity for her to hurt me. What has been very troubling to me is

> that she

> seems to enjoy hurting me. She actually seems to experience pleasure at it.

> Which is hard

> for me to understand.

>

> My mother's behavior over the years has been to turn on those who have been

> particularly

> nice to her, including me. I don't know a lot about what my daughter has been

> doing in

> the last ten years so I don't know if she has done that to others in her life.

I

> do know that

> her response to me trying to be positive or loving is to respond with

profanity

> and cruelty.

>

> Before she contacted me last fall, I had developed some thicker skin regarding

> our

> estrangement and was in good place emotionally. Since being in touch with her

in

> the last

> few months, my mind has felt like it is being taken over by thoughts of how

much

> she

> dislikes me and how this estrangement will never have a good ending and how

much

> she

> enjoys hurting me. I am wondering if I have returned to the " Land of Oz " ?

>

> I know how my mother has been. I am wondering if my daughter will ever get a

> diagnosis

> and treatment? I have become very pessimistic about the possibility of a

> reconciliation

> since I know what being in a relationship with someone with BPD can be like.

And

> I really

> really don't like it that she appears to enjoy hurting me.

>

> Ginny

>

>

>

>

> >

> >

> > Hi Ginny. Glad to 'meet' you.

> > And hello to all the newcomers here that I didn't get to welcome

> > individually!

> >

> > What a nightmare you have been through.

> > And what an invasive feeling to have all of your internet postings, blogs,

> > etc. be read and haunted by your daughter!

> > I had a similar situation a few years back (but less upsetting), with a

> > relative of mine online, and she was sending me hurtful messages, and

> haunting a

> > support group chat that I belonged to. The feeling was horrible, in that

> > here was a place that I was going to for support, and in came the 'enemy'!

> > Although I know your daughter is not really 'the enemy', I lack for a better

> > word.

> >

> > I have fears of things like this happening to me again! Which is why I

> > don't use my real name here in the group, even though my daughter does not

> have

> > access to internet, I'm afraid that another relative might show her the

> group,

> > and then start trouble. I trust the people here, but you never know, you

> > know?

> >

> > In any case, I'm glad you feel safe enough to share, and wanted to say

hello.

> >

> > I'm known here as ...

> > Blondie

> >

> >

> > In a message dated 3/26/2006 3:36:53 P.M. Central Standard Time,

> > imajgin@... writes:

> >

> > Hi, I am 59 and have owned a copy of Stop Walking on Eggshells for several

> > years because

> > my mother has BPD. She has been receiving treatment from mental health

> > professionals

> > for over 50 years. But I am not here because of my mother. I am here because

> > I have

> > become convinced that my 39 year old daughter has BPD too.

>

>

>

>

>

> Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help, @....

SEND

> HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT RESPOND ONLINE.

>

> Essential reading to help you feel better and understand the BP in your life

> are:

>

> • SWOE ( " Stop Walking on Eggshells”) and the SWOE Workbook (for everyone)

> • HOPE FOR PARENTS

>

> Call 888-35-SHELL () to order your copies.

>

> From Randi Kreger, Owner of BPDCentral and the WTO Online Community

>

>

[Guest guest]

Correct, Ginny!

Do not accept any verbal abuse or put downs. Make it very clear. Over time,

she may turn around, based on your behavior being consistent..

Good luck,

Carol

-------------- Original message --------------

> Carol, No kidding! I hadn't thought of that. It is so illogical that she would

> call me names

> and tell me in no uncertain terms to get lost using four letter words of the f

> kind that she

> could think that I would want her to be around when this is how she acts? I

> guess that is

> BPD logic. I understand what you're saying. It just hadn't occurred to me that

> way.

>

> My mother had done this sort of thing too but with less swearing.

>

> I think my daughter has herself boxed into a corner. She doesn't seem to be

> willing to

> communicate with me without denigrating me and I am not willing to listen to

> being

> denigrated.

>

> I don't know if she wants to communicate with me so that she can denigrate me

or

> does

> she want to communicate with me for some more positive reason? Maybe she

doesn't

> even

> know at this point.

>

> Ginny

>

>

>

> >

> > Sorry, Ginny,

> >

> > Your statement that you accept her estrangement is bothering her because

after

> her

> initial outburst, she probably forgot all about it and was ready to accept you

> into her life

> again, on her terms.

> >

> > When someone does something they cannot control, they're not very happy

about

> it!!!

> >

> > Carol

> >

>

>

>

>

>

> Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help, @....

SEND

> HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT RESPOND ONLINE.

>

> Essential reading to help you feel better and understand the BP in your life

> are:

>

> • SWOE ( " Stop Walking on Eggshells”) and the SWOE Workbook (for everyone)

> • HOPE FOR PARENTS

>

> Call 888-35-SHELL () to order your copies.

>

> From Randi Kreger, Owner of BPDCentral and the WTO Online Community

>

>