Re: Hypo- and Hyper- symptoms

[Guest guest]

>

> I was talking to my doctor by email yesterday about my Armour

thyroid

> dosage and he made the following comments:

>

> " If you are feeling that you are getting symptoms when increasing

the

> dose, even though they are " hypothyroid " , it may be that they

could

> be " hyperthyroid " . Sometimes the two conditions present with

exactly

> opposite symptoms ... If you experience more of your " hypothyroid

> symptoms " when you increase the dose, then don't assume that your

> thyroid is underactive, assume it might be overactive. "

>

> Whilst I have read that some symptoms of hypo and hyper are the

same,

> I don't understand what he means! Why might my thyroid be

overactive?!

> I had told him I had been experiencing unexplained extreme

> fatigue/aching muscles. Are these hyper symptoms too? What other

> hyper symptoms might cross over with hypo ones?

>

> Also, I don't know what he is getting at! Could some of those

symptoms

> I consider to be " crashes " because I am not adequately medicated

> actually be hyper symptoms? Would this be because the dose is too

> high? Unfortunately, he is not all that easy to communicate with

and

> often throws a " googly " (sorry - British cricket term, I think)

into

> the conversation, which seems completely unrelated to the thread

and

> just confuses me! Brain fog doesn't help either. I hope

perhaps I

> can obtain an explanation here of what he is might be on about.

>

> TIA

>

> Katy

>

Do you have labs done recently? Namely T3?

Although some others may disagree one thing about Armour is it is a

set ratio of T4 -T3.. two things can happen.. you have a low T4 and

a high T3..T3 being the active ingredient causes hyper symptoms but

T3 being a short half life your body uses it quickly and then you

are not left with enough T4 to play into the conversion issue..sort

of like your T3 peaks the body gets flooded you get that rush and

then crash as the T3 leaves your system and not enough conversion

going on.. this is why a lot of people multidose, it spreads out the

T3 during the day to keep them more even. The other thing that can

happen is your body does not know what to do with the T3..especially

if you have been long term hypo..even though lab wise you maybe fine

your body is sensitive to the T3 it has been missing and uses it up

quicker.. this is why people on Armour increase slowly and in smal

increments to wake up the cell receptors..

The other thing could be that you convert well and you do have a

high T3..too much Armour which I think is what the doctor may have

been hinting at with you doing the increases..T3 toxicity causes

hyper..and some of the symptoms do overlap..

Alot of this is what if's or if your body is doing this or that but

to get the answer you need labs.. mainly T4 and T3 as you are on a

T4-T3 replacement hormone.

Kats3boys

[Guest guest]

Hi Kats

Thanks for your reply.

My doc doesn't have recent bloods on which to base any advice. The

last test was done in April and this is my complete lab history:

Fall 2005 (no meds):

FT4: 17 (11-24)

FT3: 3.7 (3.5-7)

TSH: 0.89 (0.35-5.5)

Feb 6 2006 (after 4 weeks 1/2 grain):

T4: 17.3 (11-24)

T3: 3.6 (3.5-7)

TSH: 2.8 (0.35-5.5)

April 4 2006 (after 5 weeks 1 grain)

T4: 16.5 (11-24)

T3: 3.9 (3.5-7.0)

TSH: 2.00 (0.35-5.5)

Ignore my TSH btw - it was being artificially raised by some beta

blockers I was taking, which I have now discontinued. I've got

another test booked for July. I'm on 1 1/2 grains now and will start

2 grains next week up til my bloods appointment.

So you can see my T3 is almost on the floor so it isn't too much

T3. His advice the other day was general - not based on my bloods

in particular, so that is why I am asking about the hypo/hyper

symptoms in general. What might he mean by his comments?

Katy

>> >

> Do you have labs done recently? Namely T3?

> Although some others may disagree one thing about Armour is it is

a

> set ratio of T4 -T3.. two things can happen.. you have a low T4

and

> a high T3..T3 being the active ingredient causes hyper symptoms

but

> T3 being a short half life your body uses it quickly and then you

> are not left with enough T4 to play into the conversion

issue..sort

> of like your T3 peaks the body gets flooded you get that rush and

> then crash as the T3 leaves your system and not enough conversion

> going on.. this is why a lot of people multidose, it spreads out

the

> T3 during the day to keep them more even. The other thing that can

> happen is your body does not know what to do with the

T3..especially

> if you have been long term hypo..even though lab wise you maybe

fine

> your body is sensitive to the T3 it has been missing and uses it

up

> quicker.. this is why people on Armour increase slowly and in smal

> increments to wake up the cell receptors..

>

> The other thing could be that you convert well and you do have a

> high T3..too much Armour which I think is what the doctor may have

> been hinting at with you doing the increases..T3 toxicity causes

> hyper..and some of the symptoms do overlap..

>

> Alot of this is what if's or if your body is doing this or that

but

> to get the answer you need labs.. mainly T4 and T3 as you are on a

> T4-T3 replacement hormone.

>

> Kats3boys

>

[Guest guest]

Katy....

Look at the labs, keep in mind labs are a guide... not the know all end

all:

TSH

Free T4 Free T3

(.35 - 5.5)

(11-24) (3.5 - 7)

Fall 2005 (no meds) 0.89 17

3.7

02-06-06 4 wks 1/2 gr 2.8 17.3

3.6

04-04-06 5 wks 1 grain 2.00 16.5

3.9

Consider this.... You went from no meds to 1/2 grain to 1 grain.

Look at Free T4. It didn't change much, and with the last lab, even

though you'd been increased to 1 grain, the Free T4 dropped.

Look at the Free T3, it raised only slightly after the 1 grain dose.

My mind says.....

Free Ts are the measure of the free, unbound, available hormone in the

body. Even though you went from no meds, to 1/2 grain to 1 grain, there

wasn't much of a change in the levels of Free Ts... so.. where is all

that hormone you are taking going? It's either being passed from your

body..... or your body is using it.... I suspect the latter.... To me..

seeing a dosage increasing while labs are changing only slightly means

that the body is sucking up all the hormone being taken.....

With your free T3 as low as it is I (my opinion) do not think you are

being over medicated to the point of being hyper... BUT

If you body is unused to the increase in hormone (this can come from

being hypo for a long time, from starting a dose too high, or from

increasing too much at one time) it can show hyper symptoms in the

respect that the body doesn't know what to do with all this new hormone

and tells us there is a problem by showing symptoms.. Symptoms are the

body's way of speaking to us.

Hyper symptoms can also be felt even when hypo if the hormone levels are

increasing too quickly (either by dosage adjustments too close together

or from too high an increase at one time) if the adrenals are fatigued

and can't handle on the changes in the body due to the increased hormone

levels.

With adding T3, either by Cytomel or in a natural product, like Armour..

there seem to be two general groups of people.... One group does well on

a single dose of T3, taken all at one time. For them this single dose is

able to circulate through their system and fill the empty T3 receptors,

with those filled and the body more or less primed for the day and up to

fuller function, it's own conversion kicks in and is able to keep filling

up the T3 receptors as they empty....

For others, like me, our conversion isn't so hot ever... we need T3

dosing spread out during the day, this allows those major organs and

processes to have their T3 receptors filled so that conversion only has

to cover 'minor' areas, those not so vital to routine function. That's

really over simplified, I hope it makes sense.

I've seen folks in our group who's docs have prescribed alarmingly high

doses of T3 (either as Cytomel added to Synthetic T4 or as a switch from

T4-only to natural) with the intent and purpose of subjecting the person

to a sudden RUSH of T3... this great amount of T3 given to a body that

has been hypo for some time and is running slowed due to lack of

sufficient levels of T3 in order to function properly... well, the body

reacts.. for lack of a better term... in a panic. It doesn't know what to

do... the heart rate increases, breathing increases, organ and muscle

function increases... all in a system that hasn't been running at

anything near normal speed and can't handle all this stuff suddenly

working faster. You get scared, your body reacts badly.. and the T3 is

taken away....

The symptoms that you mentioned...

> I had told him I had been experiencing unexplained extreme

> fatigue/aching muscles. Are these hyper symptoms too? What other

> hyper symptoms might cross over with hypo ones?

These can be symptoms of hyper.. but they can also be symptoms exhibited

by a body that has been hypo for some time (relative to the person, I

can't say it's months, or years, or decades) who starts getting more

mobile and active in a body that can't handle all this new activity cuz

it's just out of condition.

Here I have to relate it back to what happened to me.

As my meds came up and I added adrenal glandular (this improves the

body's utilization of thyroid hormone, among other things) I felt so

wonderful that for the first time I was able to do things that I'd not

done in years... I was up and doing things, extra projects, cleaning,

socializing... all kinds of stuff... I felt sooo much better... I started

having trouble with my hands.... then my legs... My hands started

cramping.. bad.... my legs were getting weak and I started falling

down.....

Why? was it the meds? Was I really messing up with dosing and

combinations? Not exactly.... I was over doing it.... I felt good, I

wanted to do more stuff, I was able to do more stuff and, to be honest, I

don't know if my body was giving me clues to slow down or not... I do

remember that I was having a ball WANTING to do stuff and doing it....

The cramping of my hands (while peeling potatoes and apples) was the

first clue... the falling down was the second clue.. I was dealing with

muscle failure.

So... something you have to look at ... the fatigue and muscle issues

that you are having now... relate that to any increase in activity and

such that you've maybe experienced since adding thyroid hormone. Can you

see a correlation between activity levels and the symptoms... It might

take some thinking.. the delays can be weeks or months... for me it was

about a month...

The body uses symptoms to tell us things.

Is your's saying too much hormone?

Too much too soon?

Too much activity before you were strong enough to do it?

When we've been feeling poorly and our activity levels drop, our muscles

get used less. Our muscle strength decreases, our endurance decreases.

So, like in my situation. I felt well enough to go gang busters, I still

remember how I was able to do all this stuff....but my body, my muscles,

my lungs, my heart weren't strong enough to just jump in and pick up as

though all those years of decline had never been.

This part was REALLY hard for me to learn... and I still slip up at

times.... When we are coming back from the 'pit' it seems to work better

if we build our bodies up to meet all the stuff we're adding back into

our lives.... Just like someone that starts a walking regime, or a runner

training for a marathon... you have to work up your body's strength and

endurance to be able to do all this physical stuff...

For some of us.... washing dishes, cooking a meal, vacuuming, grocery

shopping, or going out with friends is the marathon event that we've not

done in so long that we need to train to get there.

For others getting through a full day at work is still doable but doing

anything after that is beyond endurance....

Ponder on that..... does it bring anything to mind?

A last comment... you are getting ready to increase to 2 grain and having

labs in July....... Ideally you want labs done 4 to 6 weeks after a

dosage adjustment, with 6 being better... when in July are your labs

scheduled for? Unless it's at the end of the month... I... me... would

choose to reschedule so that your body has a chance to adjust better to

that 2 grain and you can get a clearer picture of how your body is

responding to it......

Topper ()

On Tue, 20 Jun 2006 19:19:48 -0000 " Katy "

writes:

> Hi Kats

>

> Thanks for your reply.

>

> My doc doesn't have recent bloods on which to base any advice. The

>

> last test was done in April and this is my complete lab history:

< snip >

> Ignore my TSH btw - it was being artificially raised by some beta

> blockers I was taking, which I have now discontinued. I've got

> another test booked for July. I'm on 1 1/2 grains now and will start

>

> 2 grains next week up til my bloods appointment.

>

> So you can see my T3 is almost on the floor so it isn't too much

> T3. His advice the other day was general - not based on my bloods

> in particular, so that is why I am asking about the hypo/hyper

> symptoms in general. What might he mean by his comments?

>

> Katy

[Guest guest]

Boy.. that didn't format well at all... hope you can decypher it!

Topper ()

On Wed, 21 Jun 2006 13:57:59 -0500 topper2@... writes:

> Katy....

>

> Look at the labs, keep in mind labs are a guide... not the know all

> end

> all:

>

> TSH

>

> Free T4 Free T3

> (.35 - 5.5)

>

> (11-24) (3.5 - 7)

> Fall 2005 (no meds) 0.89 17

>

> 3.7

> 02-06-06 4 wks 1/2 gr 2.8 17.3

>

> 3.6

> 04-04-06 5 wks 1 grain 2.00 16.5

>

> 3.9

>

> Consider this.... You went from no meds to 1/2 grain to 1 grain.

< snip >

[Guest guest]

Hi Topper

Glad to see you back!

Thanks so much for your detailed reply! It's very helpful.

>

> > I had told him I had been experiencing unexplained extreme

> > fatigue/aching muscles. Are these hyper symptoms too? What

other

> > hyper symptoms might cross over with hypo ones?

>

> These can be symptoms of hyper.. but they can also be symptoms

exhibited

> by a body that has been hypo for some time (relative to the

person, I

> can't say it's months, or years, or decades) who starts getting

more

> mobile and active in a body that can't handle all this new

activity cuz

> it's just out of condition.

>

> Here I have to relate it back to what happened to me.

>

> As my meds came up and I added adrenal glandular (this improves the

> body's utilization of thyroid hormone, among other things) I felt

so

> wonderful that for the first time I was able to do things that I'd

not

> done in years... I was up and doing things, extra projects,

cleaning,

> socializing... all kinds of stuff... I felt sooo much better... I

started

> having trouble with my hands.... then my legs... My hands started

> cramping.. bad.... my legs were getting weak and I started falling

> down.....

>

> Why? was it the meds? Was I really messing up with dosing and

> combinations? Not exactly.... I was over doing it.... I felt good,

I

> wanted to do more stuff, I was able to do more stuff and, to be

honest, I

> don't know if my body was giving me clues to slow down or not... I

do

> remember that I was having a ball WANTING to do stuff and doing

it....

> The cramping of my hands (while peeling potatoes and apples) was

the

> first clue... the falling down was the second clue.. I was dealing

with

> muscle failure.

>

> So... something you have to look at ... the fatigue and muscle

issues

> that you are having now... relate that to any increase in activity

and

> such that you've maybe experienced since adding thyroid hormone.

Can you

> see a correlation between activity levels and the symptoms... It

might

> take some thinking.. the delays can be weeks or months... for me

it was

> about a month...

OK ... not sure about this. I believe I have been hypo for at least

10 years (eyebrow loss) and possibly as much as 30 years (low body

temp), but it's only in the last couple of years, nine months that I

have really been suffering. Up til last Fall I was really behaving

normally - able to go out for a day shopping with a friend, do all

the housework/errands I needed, do Pilates class twice a week, etc.

When I was diagnosed in January and started on Armour, that's when I

have really noticed the more extreme fatigue ... and by " aching

muscles " I mean that aching fluey sensation you get before you get

sick, not necessarily aching muscles from after an exercise class.

I class that type of ache as a tired ache. But I guess that might

be what you mean anyway.

I have had to stop the Nutri Adrenal tabs I was taking because they

gave me diarrhoea, despite my persevering over a few months and

fiddling with the dose etc. Taking them or not taking them doesn't

seem to be related to how I feel. I have noticed tho that after

about a month on each increase of dose I get worse fatigue, which I

take to mean it's time to increase again. That's where I am right

now. All set to move up to 2 grains on Monday, with a blood test

set on 31st July ... so timed to just where you think it should

be!

When I last increased (to 1 1/2 grains nearly six weeks ago), I

didn't see the big improvement I was hoping. I was still a bit

depressed, a bit tired, and not many " well " days. Not like I had

seen before. I am puzzled why my fatigue is not getting better (in

fact it's really getting worse) with each increase in dose, although

I do think my depression is much better - I only feel a bit low

about once a week on average now. My eyebrows are worse too, as is

my brain fog/memory loss.

As for overdoing it .... I dunno - I'm really only doing the basic

household jobs and not much else. I don't go out every day,

although I really should to try and get those rays for the Vitamin

D. I had a busy day last Saturday and Monday was my birthday, but I

was fatigued before that anyway!!! Oh goodness ..........

Sooooo anyway, you think my doc has said I should think about my

symptoms perhaps being from hyperthyroid is because he thinks my

dosing might be making me hyper sometimes?

Btw, I never get rapid heartbeat - it's now 60-66 bpm from approx 54

bpm before I started Armour. I don't think I have any other hyper

symptoms at all.

Katy

[Guest guest]

I honestly don't see you as being hyper.. not with pulse rates that

low....

My wee little brain is hovering and circling around the increased fatigue

after the dosage increase being related to the body speeding up some..

..your pulse has increased, but it's still a bit low, for resting...

If you were hypo for that long.. that does put a lot of strain on the

adrenals... How much strain, how much it affected their function.. that

can vary so much from person to person.

I do know that the adrenals will kick up production to compensate for low

thyroid.. that's why we're supposed to get them checked before going on

thyroid hormone replacment cuz the added thyroid hormone can really

through the adrenals for a loop.. they have to kick it up even more to

accommodate and body that is adjusting to moving, working, processing

faster.

I remember a while back we were comparing your Nutri brand and the US

brand Nutri-Meds... if I remember right they were pretty similar.... I

wonder if you were taking too much of it? That your body's response was

the diarrhea??

Lets look from a different angle... How is your sleep pattern? Do you

fall asleep right away and stay asleep? Do you wake often and go right

back to sleep or can't go back to sleep? How do you feel when you wake,

like you've had enough sleep or that you have to go back and get another

10 hours???

How is your day? Are you up and at 'em and rarin' to go in the morning?

Or is more of a slow start with your momentum picking up later in the

day, or the evening?

What about what you are eating... considering the type of food that you

ate say 10 years ago... more vegies or less? More meat or less? More

processed foods now or less?

I'll stop with that and let you fill me in... I'm just looking to see if

we spot anything that will make something stand out as cause...

contributor.. whatever...

The fatigue setting in after about a month... for many it's about two

weeks.. .after a dosage increase does usually mean that the body is ready

for an increase... I think you are interpreting that right....

How many doses are you taking in a day... or do you single dose?

Multi-dosing gives you less T3 at one time, spreading it out more through

the day.... For some that plan is best... for others they need it all at

once... perhaps the way you do it now isn't what your body likes and

switching it might help?

and.... last... but not least!!!

Happy Belated Birthday!!!

My mom's birthday happens to be today... she passed a few months after

my RAI.. so if anyone would like to take just a sec... take a peak

skyward and wish Margot and happy B-day... she'd like that!

Topper ()

On Thu, 22 Jun 2006 14:36:34 -0000 " Katy "

writes:

> OK ... not sure about this. I believe I have been hypo for at least

> 10 years (eyebrow loss) and possibly as much as 30 years (low body

> temp), but it's only in the last couple of years, nine months that I

> have really been suffering. Up til last Fall I was really behaving

> normally - able to go out for a day shopping with a friend, do all

> the housework/errands I needed, do Pilates class twice a week, etc.

> When I was diagnosed in January and started on Armour, that's when I

> have really noticed the more extreme fatigue ... and by " aching

> muscles " I mean that aching fluey sensation you get before you get

> sick, not necessarily aching muscles from after an exercise class.

> I class that type of ache as a tired ache. But I guess that might

> be what you mean anyway.

> I have had to stop the Nutri Adrenal tabs I was taking because they

> gave me diarrhoea, despite my persevering over a few months and

> fiddling with the dose etc. Taking them or not taking them doesn't

> seem to be related to how I feel. I have noticed tho that after

> about a month on each increase of dose I get worse fatigue, which I

> take to mean it's time to increase again. That's where I am right

> now. All set to move up to 2 grains on Monday, with a blood test

> set on 31st July ... so timed to just where you think it should

> be!

> When I last increased (to 1 1/2 grains nearly six weeks ago), I

> didn't see the big improvement I was hoping. I was still a bit

> depressed, a bit tired, and not many " well " days. Not like I had

> seen before. I am puzzled why my fatigue is not getting better (in

> fact it's really getting worse) with each increase in dose, although

> I do think my depression is much better - I only feel a bit low

> about once a week on average now. My eyebrows are worse too, as is

> my brain fog/memory loss.

> As for overdoing it .... I dunno - I'm really only doing the basic

> household jobs and not much else. I don't go out every day,

> although I really should to try and get those rays for the Vitamin

> D. I had a busy day last Saturday and Monday was my birthday, but I

> was fatigued before that anyway!!! Oh goodness ..........

> Sooooo anyway, you think my doc has said I should think about my

> symptoms perhaps being from hyperthyroid is because he thinks my

> dosing might be making me hyper sometimes?

> Btw, I never get rapid heartbeat - it's now 60-66 bpm from approx 54

> bpm before I started Armour. I don't think I have any other hyper

> symptoms at all.

> Katy

[Guest guest]

Hi Topper

>

> I remember a while back we were comparing your Nutri brand and the

US

> brand Nutri-Meds... if I remember right they were pretty

similar.... I

> wonder if you were taking too much of it? That your body's

response was

> the diarrhea??

I did try and vary the dose trying to find a dose I could tolerate.

I worked up from 1/2 tab a day and managed for a while at 2 a day

but then had to cut back and back cos of the " problem " . Then I

found even on 1/2 tab I was getting diarrhoea by lunchtime so

decided maybe my body didn't need it and was excreting it pdq.

HOWEVER, yesterday, after a week without, I took 1/2 a tab with

breakfast and I actually felt much better in the morning! I felt

exhausted in the evening, but this might have been because I did too

much. I also got diarrhoea after dinner. ƒ¼ Today I had half a tab

again at breakfast ¡K so far so good although I was shattered this

morning.

>

> Lets look from a different angle... How is your sleep pattern? Do

you

> fall asleep right away and stay asleep? Do you wake often and go

right

> back to sleep or can't go back to sleep? How do you feel when you

wake,

> like you've had enough sleep or that you have to go back and get

another

> 10 hours???

Yes I fall asleep right away mostly and sleep soundly until the

alarm goes. In the mornings, it varies, but since I have been

taking Vitamin D, Calcium and Magnesium over the past two weeks I am

usually quite alert, mentally (most unusual for me) but physically I

feel like I need more sleep ¡V tired aching muscles still. I¡¦ve

actually decided to stop taking the Vitamin D, Ca and Mg because the

magnesium gives me diarrhoea and that means I can¡¦t take the Adrenal

supplement on top, which also gives me diarrhoea unless I am

careful! (Possibly it¡¦s the magnesium in the adrenal support that

does that.) Goodness ¡V it is all so complicated!

>

> How is your day? Are you up and at 'em and rarin' to go in the

morning?

> Or is more of a slow start with your momentum picking up later in

the

> day, or the evening?

I am definitely not raring to go! I have never been like that,

being a night owl rather than a morning lark naturally. I usually

feel better once I am up, breakfasted and had my supplements and

Armour, then if I am having a good day I will often flag late

afternoon and evening (like yesterday). Or I could feel not very

good when I wake up and feel better later (like today). There isn¡¦t

really a typical day. I¡¦m multi dosing, before you ask ¡K I take 1

grain just after breakfast sublingually, and the remaining half

grain just after lunch, again sublingually.

>

> What about what you are eating... considering the type of food

that you

> ate say 10 years ago... more vegies or less? More meat or less?

More

> processed foods now or less?

I¡¦m a low carber and have been for over 5 years. I avoid grains and

sugar and I eat fresh fresh fresh and as natural as possible and

practically never eat junk or processed foods. I¡¦m a big fan of

Sally Fallon and Enig and ¡§Nourishing Traditions¡¨. I¡¦m also

studying nutrition and hoping to do a Diploma in the next couple of

years. I believe strongly that my change in diet held off the

thyroid problems for a few years, I guess until age took over.

But having been told I was going through the menopause in the

Autumn, my periods have switched right back to normal after I

started Armour ¡K so go figure.

I am wonder ¡K. do you think that I may be hypoadrenal rather than

hypothyroid? I am wondering whether the reason I am not

significantly improving on Armour might perhaps be because my

hypothyroidism is secondary to a hypoadrenal problem. This worries

me (please reassure me by not agreeing!) In any case, if I go back

onto the adrenal support from now on should this be sufficient to

sort me out both from the adrenal point of view and the thyroid

point of view in the long term, do you think?

OK ¡K waiting for the next questions ¡K.

Katy

[Guest guest]

Hmmm I think we have to back up a step...

A GOOD and proper adrenal supplement contains ONLY desiccated adrenal

glandular and the stuff that makes it into a pill (the tableting

agents).. if it's got vitamins, minerals, or herbs in it there is no

actual adrenal hormone in it, it's an adrenal stimulator... not adrenal

support. There are also specific adrenal hormones, like cortisol...

Adrenal glandular contains some of all of the adrenal hormones, not just

a specific one.... My own reason for choosing Whole adrenal glandular is

that I felt that if Armour, natural thyroid, which is a whole desiccated

Thyroid Glandular works SO much better for me than a single thyroid

hormone.. the a whole adrenal should work better too. Others don't agree

and choose to take a single adrenal hormone... so you have to decide what

you feel most comfortable with.

An Adrenal stimulator, with vitamins, minerals and herbs would work for

someone that is not dealing with adrenal fatigue, like us... It's more

for someone that is pushing their limits, like those folks that use

coffee to wake up in the morning.. that is an adrenal stimulant too.

So lets go over what you are taking again, I must have mixed up your

Nutra with something someone else had brought up.

Check the ingredient label... does it have stuff other than whole

desiccated adrenal glandular and the tableting agents?

Magnesium Oxide is the Magnesium in supplements that our bodies use.

Magnesium Sterate is a tableting agent that makes the pills hold their

shape. I can't get online to double check that.... so if I've goofed it

up someone please jump in.... check the bottle of magnesium that you

take... does it say Magnesium Oxide on it or only Magnesium Sterate?

Something else you mentioned... you wait until after breakfast and then

take your Armour after Breakfast... Sublingually, so it's not the food in

your tummy that is the problem... but I'm wondering.. Could it be the

timing? How much time passes between the time you get up and then time

you actually take your Armour? What are you doing during that time

(showering, dressing, preparing breakfast or??) ?

Depending on how much time you are up and about and eating and doing

stuff before dosing.. you could be dealing with your body not liking that

deficit of hormone in the morning.... It's gone all night without food...

then that time in the morning without food... no food means no

conversion. That is a natural state for healthy folks, yes... but for

some of us, like me... taking that dose immediately when I wake up makes

a HUGE difference on how my day goes... perhaps you might want to give

that a try??

Adrenals... we'll skip the part about what is in the tab that you are

taking now and just talk about what the adrenals do when we wake up.

They, for lack of a better term, dump a load of hormone into our blood

stream. It's this hormone that gives us the mental an physical ability to

get going in the morning. To be able to get up and start doing stuff and

be able to think clearly until we can eat. The longer IN MY PERSONAL

OPINION you wait to take adrenal support the more work your own adrenals

have to do EVERY MORNING. To the way my brain thinks about how this all

works, the less work the adrenals have to do in the morning, consistently

the busiest part of their day and the heaviest consistent work load they

have, the faster they are able to rest, recover, and go back to handling

all their duties on their own. On that basis I also take my adrenal

glandular as soon as I wake up.

So.. my eyes come opening... I peak at the clock to see if it's time to

get up, it generally is, I wake between 5 and 5:30.... I reach for my

pill box and pull out my 'first dose cup' and dump it under my tongue.

Adrenal glandular can be taken sublingually too. It tastes and dissolves

very much the same as Armour, but it's not as sweet. By the time my

thyroid and adrenal are dissolved I've got potty, dressed and breakfast

is ready to eat. For me, this just seems to make a ton of sense.. getting

the doses into me nearly as quickly as my own body used to....

Ponder on that... see how that might work for you and if you want to give

it a try....

Is your hypothyroid secondary to hypoadrenal? I don't think so... Why? If

your adrenals were working so poorly as to have affected your thyroid

function I would think you'd show a LOT more severe issues with low

adrenal levels...

Some of the things that I dealt with before starting adrenal support and

changing my morning routine to help them included:

SEVERE difficulty falling asleep and staying asleep. And when I did sleep

I did not go into a deep sleep, no dreaming.. and I was VERY easily

waken. It was pretty much a given that if something woke me up I was

looking at a minimum of two hours to fall back asleep, if I even did.

Inability to handle anything out of the ordinary.. Telephone ringing sent

me into a panic, what if I didn't answer fast enough? What if it was

someone that I didn't want to talk to? Dropping something on the floor

that required cleaning totally freaked me out. Seeing something sad on TV

(not really bad, something as dumb as a flat tire or the police shooting

the bad guy) set me bawling my eyes out. I NEVER laughed. Not at anything

on TV, not at anything anyone sad.. just never, not even a smile.

I had no sense of tomorrow. It was coming.. so what. Would it be good?

who cares. Would it be bad? who cares. What if it didn't come? who cares.

Tornado warning? Crap, no TV, can't do nothing. I'll just sit here, maybe

it will hit the house and I won't hurt anymore....

Kinda get the idea? I giggle... I laugh... I will laugh out loud, loud

enough for the neighbors to look up if they are outside and I have the

window open, just from watching TV! Heck, there are emails that I get

that have me cracking up.... I've talked about my multi-tasking in the

kitchen... All kinds of stuff going on... timing coordinating... that's a

FAR sight from getting flustered cuz I splashed water on the floor or

dropped a CLOSED vegie can on the floor.

How well are you handling everyday stuff? What happens if something out

of the ordinary happens? Are you able do deal with it?

Adrenal fatigue tends to follow thyroid malfunction, that goes for hyper

or hypo thyroid. Cuz the adrenal glands have to pick up the slack for the

low thyroid function. Yes, it can happen that stress, poor diet, illness

and such can stress the adrenals causing the body to have difficulty

being able to utilize thyroid hormone.. but I think you'd be showing a

LOT more severe adrenal problem then you are if the adrenal came before

the thyroid.... My opinion, of course... cuz I'm not a doc..... I'm just

me.

So I guess right now, if I were you.... Find out what is in your adrenal

supplement.... consider taking your thyroid immediately when you wake...

And if the adrenal is the 'good stuff' consider trying it sublingually

and taking it the same time your take your Armour, when you first wake

up.... and dropping the dose of the Adrenal to a quarter tab.....

It's a pain when you have to start messing with timing..... but gosh....

it was the MAGIC trick for me... so I think it's worth playing with to

see what your body is happier with.....

IMHO of course...

I had to giggle.... your comment about waiting for the next questions....

you're used to how I keep picking and volleying back and forth!

ehehehehhe the more we gab the more little details come to the

surface... it's the BEST way to figure out what needs tweaking, I think!

Topper () *who's all cross-eyed from setting up pill boxes this

morning!! hehehehe*

On Sat, 24 Jun 2006 15:16:18 -0000 " Katy "

writes:

> Hi Topper

> I did try and vary the dose trying to find a dose I could tolerate.

>

> I worked up from 1/2 tab a day and managed for a while at 2 a day

> but then had to cut back and back cos of the " problem " . Then I

> found even on 1/2 tab I was getting diarrhoea by lunchtime so

> decided maybe my body didn't need it and was excreting it pdq.

> HOWEVER, yesterday, after a week without, I took 1/2 a tab with

> breakfast and I actually felt much better in the morning! I felt

> exhausted in the evening, but this might have been because I did too

>

> much. I also got diarrhoea after dinner. ƒ¼ Today I had half a tab

>

> again at breakfast ¡K so far so good although I was shattered this

> morning.

> Yes I fall asleep right away mostly and sleep soundly until the

> alarm goes. In the mornings, it varies, but since I have been

> taking Vitamin D, Calcium and Magnesium over the past two weeks I am

> usually quite alert, mentally (most unusual for me) but physically I

> feel like I need more sleep ¡V tired aching muscles still. I¡¦ve

> actually decided to stop taking the Vitamin D, Ca and Mg because the

> magnesium gives me diarrhoea and that means I can¡¦t take the

> Adrenal

> supplement on top, which also gives me diarrhoea unless I am

> careful! (Possibly it¡¦s the magnesium in the adrenal support that

> does that.) Goodness ¡V it is all so complicated!

>

> I am definitely not raring to go! I have never been like that,

> being a night owl rather than a morning lark naturally. I usually

> feel better once I am up, breakfasted and had my supplements and

> Armour, then if I am having a good day I will often flag late

> afternoon and evening (like yesterday). Or I could feel not very

> good when I wake up and feel better later (like today). There

> isn¡¦t

> really a typical day. I¡¦m multi dosing, before you ask ¡K I take 1

> grain just after breakfast sublingually, and the remaining half

> grain just after lunch, again sublingually.

>

> I¡¦m a low carber and have been for over 5 years. I avoid grains

> and

> sugar and I eat fresh fresh fresh and as natural as possible and

> practically never eat junk or processed foods. I¡¦m a big fan of

> Sally Fallon and Enig and ¡§Nourishing Traditions¡¨. I¡¦m also

> studying nutrition and hoping to do a Diploma in the next couple of

> years. I believe strongly that my change in diet held off the

> thyroid problems for a few years, I guess until age took over.

> But having been told I was going through the menopause in the

> Autumn, my periods have switched right back to normal after I

> started Armour ¡K so go figure.

>

> I am wonder ¡K. do you think that I may be hypoadrenal rather than

> hypothyroid? I am wondering whether the reason I am not

> significantly improving on Armour might perhaps be because my

> hypothyroidism is secondary to a hypoadrenal problem. This worries

> me (please reassure me by not agreeing!) In any case, if I go back

> onto the adrenal support from now on should this be sufficient to

> sort me out both from the adrenal point of view and the thyroid

> point of view in the long term, do you think?

>

> OK ¡K waiting for the next questions ¡K.

>

> Katy

[Guest guest]

Tee hee Topper ... I LOVE it when you give such long practical

replies!

OK, first up, here is the low down on the adrenal tab I am taking:

http://www.yournutritionshop.com/Manufacturers/Nut/info/glandular/nut

ri_info_adrenal_extra_m.htm

It does contain adrenal, pituitary and parotid tissue, so I don't

know if that's good enough of not. Magnesium Oxide too.

As for taking it first thing ... yes I can definitely take the

Armour first thing. Right now, it is probably an hour and a half

before I take it after getting up. I could take it as soon as I

walk into the bathroom which is the very first thing I do, but

probably a minute or two after I have taken my body temp. I may

have to clean my teeth too first because it takes about an hour to

dissolve and by then I would be two flights of stairs away from my

toothbrush! However, I have thought of taking the adrenal tab

sublingually but the taste makes me gag. It's a huge tab, too, for

going under the tongue. Atm I am only taking 1/2 tab to build back

up the dosage, but even so ... It says to take with food if

swallowed, which I must do then because it tends to give me

diarrhoea if I'm not careful and on an empty stomach ... Hmm ...

>

> How well are you handling everyday stuff? What happens if

something out

> of the ordinary happens? Are you able do deal with it?

Yes I guess so. Not as bad as you have described. I was really

quite depressed until about 1-2 months ago and now I do mostly feel

better (but not fully recovered yet). Today, btw, I feel MUCH

better than yesterday. I don't have the all over body muscle aching

tiredness which I've been experiencing over the past couple of

weeks, and the only thing I have done is start taking the adrenal

tab again.

>

> Adrenal fatigue tends to follow thyroid malfunction, that goes for

hyper

> or hypo thyroid. Cuz the adrenal glands have to pick up the slack

for the

> low thyroid function. Yes, it can happen that stress, poor diet,

illness

> and such can stress the adrenals causing the body to have

difficulty

> being able to utilize thyroid hormone.. but I think you'd be

showing a

> LOT more severe adrenal problem then you are if the adrenal came

before

> the thyroid.... My opinion, of course... cuz I'm not a doc.....

I'm just

> me.

OK that's good. How would I know I had the severe adrenal problem?

Do you mean the severe depression and exhaustion that you just

described? Anything else? These things are also how you can feel

just being hypoT, isn't it? It's difficult to identify which gland

is acting up!

>

> So I guess right now, if I were you.... Find out what is in your

adrenal

> supplement.... consider taking your thyroid immediately when you

wake...

> And if the adrenal is the 'good stuff' consider trying it

sublingually

> and taking it the same time your take your Armour, when you first

wake

> up.... and dropping the dose of the Adrenal to a quarter tab.....

>

> It's a pain when you have to start messing with timing..... but

gosh....

> it was the MAGIC trick for me... so I think it's worth playing

with to

> see what your body is happier with.....

Thank you! I will take my Armour when I wake tomorrow, but I might

stick to 1/2 tab adrenal since I feel so much better today (third

day on 1/2 tab). Perhaps I should have some food at the bedside to

send down the adrenal tab with so I can swallow it??

Katy