Re: discomfort with discussions

[Guest guest]

Hi, Shen

I am sorry this discussion is making you feel so uncomfortable.

Perhaps it would hel p if you try to recognise that what is under

attack is not a person but a " fact " and the issue of the

importance of distinguishing between facts and ideas. It really

isn't personal at all.

You seem to have a problem with me asking Elaine to verify a

statement she made. I am just trying to strip Elaine's statement

down into truth and fiction. I too have made statements that were

incorrect and people said so, and I admitted the fact and that

was fine by me(though I'd rather have got it right of course). If she

would either show her source or admit she made it up or got it

wrong or something, I will very happily drop it. Maybe your

discomfort comes from the fact she is apparently wrong and you

depend on her to be right.. Talk to her about that if you like.

[Guest guest]

I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt that much of this is due to

your hyper state. I hope that once you are evened out you will be able to

communicate more gracefully.

At 07:32 AM 09/04/2001 +0000, you wrote:

>Hi, Shen

>I am sorry this discussion is making you feel so uncomfortable.

[Guest guest]

> You seem to have a problem with me asking Elaine to verify a

> statement she made. I am just trying to strip Elaine's statement

> down into truth and fiction.

I am not taking sides in this issue, but I think it's practical to want

to have information verified. From the conversation on this list, it's

evident that there is a lot of misinformation given at times, even by

medical professionals. How many of us have had problems with finding a

good endocrinologist, especially when it comes to those who are aware

of various treatments and the risks involved? A good number of us have

had to do research on our own, as we can't necessarily trust that our

doctors will tell us certain things, or that they're even aware of

them.

> I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt that much of this is

> due to your hyper state. I hope that once you are evened out you

> will be able to communicate more gracefully.

I don't know that it's ideal to delegate the act of wanting proof to

being a symptom of hyperthyroidism. I think it's good to ask questions

and ask for further information or verification of something, and I

don't think hyper. symptoms have anything to do with that..

...

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Anise,

Just curious--but have you read Elaine's book? You might find just a bit of

valid info in there. I know I have, although with no scientific training I

find it heavy going indeed.

Terry

> From: anise_kennedy@...

> Reply-To: graves_support

> Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 07:32:35 -0000

> To: graves_support

> Subject: Re: discomfort with discussions

>

> Hi, Shen

> I am sorry this discussion is making you feel so uncomfortable.

> Perhaps it would hel p if you try to recognise that what is under

> attack is not a person but a " fact " and the issue of the

> importance of distinguishing between facts and ideas. It really

> isn't personal at all.

>

> You seem to have a problem with me asking Elaine to verify a

> statement she made. I am just trying to strip Elaine's statement

> down into truth and fiction. I too have made statements that were

> incorrect and people said so, and I admitted the fact and that

> was fine by me(though I'd rather have got it right of course). If she

> would either show her source or admit she made it up or got it

> wrong or something, I will very happily drop it. Maybe your

> discomfort comes from the fact she is apparently wrong and you

> depend on her to be right.. Talk to her about that if you like.

>

>

>

> -------------------------------------

> The Graves' list is intended for informational purposes only and is not

> intended to replace expert medical care.

> Please consult your doctor before changing or trying new treatments.

> ----------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

:

I absolutely agree that we should be free to question and debate within the

group. My comments were directed towards the tone used, and also the

excessive demands for references. I would prefer that we learn for

ourselves and from each other in less destructive ways, which happily is

what happens almost all of the time - after all, we are comrades-in-arms

and this group is really a foundational support for each of us!

At 09:52 AM 09/04/2001 -0700, you wrote:

>I am not taking sides in this issue, but I think it's practical to want

>to have information verified.

[Guest guest]

Anise,

I have gone back and reread your posts from when you entered this

group...you have done nothing but attack Elaine, question her credibility,

make it sound like she is lying to all of us, WHICH SHE IS NOT!, Elaine has

told you where you can find the references, told you the text and how much

it cost, told you other texts and to use your hospitals library...you are

the one who keeps bashing her because she isn't listing direct references

and quotes from text books. Elaine has over 30 years in her field, not to

mention all of the research she does on other diseases, issues and unrelated

GD matters but things that pertain to many AI's and I trust her opinion on

my labs and things I don't understand when my doc says them more than I

trust any of my drs. opinions. The docs look at the labs and say 'oh TSH in

normal range your fine, it isn't GD'...that is how I was left hypo for 4

years. I can honestly say, that I do have a wonderful endo now, we disagree

at times but we work together, she is open minded enough to listen and is

definately not stuck in the RAI routine to make things easier on herself in

my treatment. But even she will talk about something that I just don't

understand, I come home and write Elaine and she knows exactly what she was

talking about and explains it in terms that I understand. Elaine is a

friend, and an asset to this group and to my life and I am NOT going to sit

back and say nothing anymore when you attack.

With this groups SUPPORT and help and knowledge, I now know how to read my

labs, I know what foods set me off and what ones don't (Seafood does make me

hyper when I have to much of it btw)...I know when I have a problem or a

question I can come to this group and get support if that is what I need,

suggestions and where to look to RESEARCH FURTHER MYSELF, and I know NOT to

depend on the internet only for my research because it is not all here.

This is a support group, not a medical information group, between the

probably 200 + years of GD between us, we probably do know more than our

drs. as they have chosen to go with 50-100 year old information and

treatment because it is easier for them to do that rather than for them to

take the time to learn knew things about GD. GD is made up of a lot more

symptoms than what they actually attribute to the disease, which without

this group I would never have known and maybe gone years more feeling so

bad; RAI is NOT the best way to treat us, why kill the messenger when it

isn't the messengers fault, and contrary to their opinions Synthroid is NOT

the only or BEST THR out there, it has cost a lot of us many years because

of its inconsistency. There are many things that need to move forward in

the treatment of thyroid disease, ANY thyroid disease and the medical field

just isn't doing it...so we support each other in things we try, we talk

about what fails and what works for *me*, we talk about what our drs. say

and what they don't say, we talk about frustration with docs and supporting

as others look for and find new ones...no one here gives out medical advice

unless it is to say call your doctor, or talk it over with your doctor. And

Elaine, bless her heart, mind and soul! has been kind enough to explain and

share with us when we can't figure out or understand where our docs are

coming from.

If you want to know all that YOUR dr. knows, then maybe you should consider

going to medical school and becoming an endocrinologist, unless of course

you or your husband already are one, in which case that would explain a LOT

to me in the way you come in this group and for the last six weeks

repeatedly challenge and attack Elaine. Where is YOUR proof that YOU are

right eh? When people NICELY take you to task on that you write to them

with your condescending attitude and STILL manage to attack Elaine. I

wondered from the first time you did it if you weren't actually an endo that

one of us from this group has challenged and maybe even fired, because your

attitude and remarks remind me so very much of the first endo I had...I

fired her.

Maybe you need to go back and reread the post in which you shared with us on

August 24. In that post you talked about your need to know and understand,

that is what everyone of us is here about, and you my dear are the first

person to ever come in and attack, repeatedly, another member who has much

more experience, with this disease, with AI's and with a medical background.

You have just begun to learn about this disease, you have a long long ways

to go.

That post also said:

>>>>My husband looked through my posts and said that I sounded like a

>>>>know-it-all, and a pain in the bum.<<<< He should have added

>>>>condescending in here also.

I truly do wish you the best of treatment with GD, if you do have it. You

can respond to this or not, I won't be reading your posts anymore. I don't

have the time to waste on someone who thinks they know more than anyone else

in this group and wants to repeatedly challenge someone we all know and

respect.

Jody

TO everyone else in group, I apologize if I have offended any of you by this

post, but I for one have had enough and this needed to be said, in my

opinion, without kid gloves or making nice, because making nice, as we can

all see, just doesn't work with everyone.

please don't kick me out!

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[Guest guest]

ANISE SAID:

I am sorry this discussion is making you feel so uncomfortable.

Perhaps it would hel p if you try to recognise that what is under

attack is not a person but a " fact " and the issue of the

importance of distinguishing between facts and ideas. It really

isn't personal at all.

Hi Everyone,

From where I sit we all need to stay open to challenging the " facts "

because as more is learned about any subject, the " facts " change. We

should not take this search for knowledge personally.

I have to say that it was Elaine that threw the first personal punch

in this conversation with this line " Unlike you, I worked all night

and am

tired of coming home from a 12 hour worknight at a bustling hospital

to read

your diatribes about iodine. " And the second punch as well with

these lines: " Dawn Rose kindly spent her time finding you one an

excerpt from one of the

top references in this country, but I somehow doubt you will be able

to

understand it. In fact, I know you won't. "

In the world of healthy debate, these two statements means Elaine

loses the debate. They are personal attacks and not on point. I hope

very much that Elaine comes out with a public apology very soon. I am

sure she was just having a Graves' moment which we can probably all

relate to and I'm sure we all love her all the more because she is as

fallible as the rest of us.

[Guest guest]

Sorry but I am going to disagree with you on this one.

I have gone back and read the posts from Anise and she has been challenging

Elaine from the very beginning and she has done it in a very attacking way.

Elaine owes no one in here an apology as far as I am concerned. She told

Anise where she could find the material, in medical text books were two

sources and Anise fired right back with another attack on how she can't

support her statements...I have been biting my tongue for the last 2 days

over this and staying out of it, then when people like , Dawn Rose,

and Redhen tried in a very nice way to calm her down she was very

condescending and STILL attacked Elaine. I wouldn't do it anymore, not with

the attitude used against these very caring and very knowledgeable people

also.

There have been times when I have challenged Elaine, when has, I

believe , but it has been in DISCUSSIONS, not attacks. I don't take

everything anyone says as gospel, but of all the information we exchange in

this group, from all of us...Elaine's is the least one I will challenge as

she does give sources, she lets us know exactly where we can go to read more

on topics and she has many more years of experience, not just with GD but

with her medical background also.

Before demanding an apology from Elaine, go back and read all of the posts.

She is not the one who started this, and it has been this way for the last 6

weeks.

I think it was you who pointed out in the last couple of days that where

ever we look we can find articles/reports etc. to support any side of the

issue we want to see and your right. And a huge problem when someone uses

strictly the internet for research is that most of the things are abstracts

and abstracts can be interpreted in many many ways. Elaine not only uses

the internet, but she uses the medical books, interviews with many many

different drs. and holistic people and she is well respected in what she

does, if she weren't she wouldn't have been commissioned to write 2 more

medical info books.

Hope you don't take this personal, I am just opting to disagree with you on

this point

Take care,

Jody

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[Guest guest]

, and all,

I meant to send that to you privately, I am so sorry it went public.

Jody

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[Guest guest]

My dearest Jody,

Your points are all well taken, but it doesn't change the fact

that we can be more tolerant than we are right now.

Graves' can make people very abrasive, anyone ever notice that? I

think we need to be kind and set the standard by showing patience and

compassion to the newest people here. They are often in very great

personal turmoil and a little wild eyed and bellicose. I know, I am

still a little out of control myself and I've had a half a year to

get a handle on it.

When I divulged to the group that my autoimmune, raging daughter

had hit me in the head hard enough to knock me down I got ONE letter

to ask how I was. (I had xrays, not broken but there's a sharp thing

poking out on the suture line at the back of my skull now that the

swelling is down. It can't be touched. It needs reassesment...Thanks

for asking...)It arrived a week later because that person had been

off the board for awhile. Not one person offered any support to me.

This board wants to offer support to people who are not that bad off,

perhaps. But Graves' patients can be sooo off as to be imprisoned or

institutionalised!! Do you want us to be perfect before we post for

support???

> Sorry but I am going to disagree with you on this one.

> I have gone back and read the posts from Anise and she has been

challenging

> Elaine from the very beginning and she has done it in a very

attacking way.

>

> Elaine owes no one in here an apology as far as I am concerned.

She told

> Anise where she could find the material, in medical text books were

two

> sources and Anise fired right back with another attack on how she

can't

> support her statements...I have been biting my tongue for the last

2 days

> over this and staying out of it, then when people like , Dawn

Rose,

> and Redhen tried in a very nice way to calm her down she was

very

> condescending and STILL attacked Elaine. I wouldn't do it anymore,

not with

> the attitude used against these very caring and very knowledgeable

people

> also.

>

> There have been times when I have challenged Elaine, when

has, I

> believe , but it has been in DISCUSSIONS, not attacks. I

don't take

> everything anyone says as gospel, but of all the information we

exchange in

> this group, from all of us...Elaine's is the least one I will

challenge as

> she does give sources, she lets us know exactly where we can go to

read more

> on topics and she has many more years of experience, not just with

GD but

> with her medical background also.

>

> Before demanding an apology from Elaine, go back and read all of

the posts.

> She is not the one who started this, and it has been this way for

the last 6

> weeks.

>

> I think it was you who pointed out in the last couple of days that

where

> ever we look we can find articles/reports etc. to support any side

of the

> issue we want to see and your right. And a huge problem when

someone uses

> strictly the internet for research is that most of the things are

abstracts

> and abstracts can be interpreted in many many ways. Elaine not

only uses

> the internet, but she uses the medical books, interviews with many

many

> different drs. and holistic people and she is well respected in

what she

> does, if she weren't she wouldn't have been commissioned to write 2

more

> medical info books.

>

> Hope you don't take this personal, I am just opting to disagree

with you on

> this point

> Take care,

> Jody

>

> _________________________________________________________________

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