Re: 911:: 911 Operator Under Fire Over Call From Woman Who Died

[Guest guest]

Yeah Randy... been there!

In a message dated 11/20/2003 9:37:32 AM Eastern Standard Time,

randym@... writes:

>

>

> From the devil's advocate:

>

> Not unheard of in rural areas for a house to burn and NO ONE reports it

> until the ash pile is observed.

>

> Randy

>

> > I am not sure about anyplace else but A house fire gets about 50 calls.

> Even at 3am. So why waist the callers time in the

> > house.

>

Firefighter Specialist/EMT-ST

Communications Support Group

Charlottesville, VA Fire Dept.

www.cfdonline.org

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/21/2003 1:23:28 AM Central Standard Time,

tmoder@... writes:

I've been sitting back, reading the thread with interest. Unfortunately, I

can't agree with the people who say it is not necessary to obtain a cross

street.

Point blank........it all depends on where you live in the country.. i

dispatch for 11 fire depts in the county.. Cross-street is not needed, unless

they

are stranded, or was in an accident, (stuff like that) at an intersection in

rural, i mean rural Dallas County and they don't know where they are.. it all

depends on how big your agency is and how much you cover.. just my opinion

jamie in iowa

DCSO

[Guest guest]

Lots of response on this topic. Very good to see all the different

viewpoints. Different ones, not wrong. ;-)

I have worked in both the E9-1-1 environment with ANI/ALI and for the past

10 years without any ALI on wireless 9-1-1 calls. Even when I was in the

consolidated PSAP environment, dispatching for multiple agencies, police,

fire, ambulance services, I ALWAYS confirmed the ALI.

In the wireless environment, we don't get any kind of ALI. We only get ANI

through Caller ID, and if someone has an un-initialized phone, there's no

call-back number and if someone has Caller ID blocked, we don't get it...

and a lot of the " translated " calls don't come in with ANI, anyway.

So, we confirm both ANI and ALI, in every case THAT WE CAN.

If we don't, we run the risk of having adverse 20/20 coverage in an

amazingly short amount of time after we've sent personnel and equipment to

the correct location. That is, once we discover what it is....

And my " that we can " caveat comes directly from the wireless 9-1-1

environment. People JUST DO NOT KNOW WHERE they are, far too freakin'

often. As has been said, 100 meters " 65 percent of the time " is great for

rural locations, but that's kind of a pipe dream at this particular

point. In an urban area? Well, it's better than No Clue...

Just my bits of copper. ;-)

Oh, and one minute into the call without telling someone to get

out? Trainees are in TRAINING, fer goodness' sake! Plus, how many of us

on the list have actually spent time ARGUING with someone about getting

out?? <raising my hand> It's always amazing to me that some of the

instruction we provide is like, gosh, an innovative concept to many folks.

....okay, I've put my meager change away for a later day.....

Happy to be here, proud to serve.

Olmstead

Public Safety Dispatch Supervisor

~somewhere on the Central CA coast~

http://www.gryeyes.com

[not presumed to be a statement of my employing agency]

[Guest guest]

Moder writes:

> I've been sitting back, reading the thread with interest. Unfortunately, I

> can't agree with the people who say it is not necessary to obtain a cross

> street.

It's fine for us to call them cross streets but the general public is more

likely to understand " What is the nearest intersection? " . (Kinda like where

city folks have cul de sacs and us country mice have dead end roads -

sorry!)

>

<snip>

>

> Several years ago there was an instance where there was an emergency

>

<lots of other snips>

>

>the addressed verified in CAD and units were dispatched. I happened to glance

at the phone number and noticed the prefix was from a different part >of the

county

Similar situ in good ole southern Ohio. Turned out the then new telco

addressing center six states away was trying to clear errors and decided

they knew the proper community for the same name street without checking

with us locally. NOT!

We will not go into what I threatened them with if they ever did it again.

But a different telco recently did the same thing. Similar threats....

Randy

[Guest guest]

>>>The importance of obtaining cross streets will be dependent on your agency

and area and the way your CAD is set up. >>>

Or not -- I think there are still agencies out there that are still on cards.

If I recall my card training (now 4 years ago) we had to get the cross

street.

We have one street I can think of that the numbers go up and then they go

back down again -- like the even numbers are on the side going up and the odd

going down. Don't ask me, I do not have a clue.

Aside from that -- asking or stating " your cross street is _____ " only takes

what 15 seconds? That you can otherwise be typing in information, dispatching

units, etc. What I have found on occasion that by making that comment it can

be reassuring to the caller that you really DO know where they are.

Conversely I've also found a number of people do not have a clue what their

nearest cross street is. They have lived somewhere for years and no clue what

their nearest cross street is. They never had a reason to learn it so why

bother. And boy do they get irritated if you ask and THEY don't think its

important.

So many people do not understand at least our CAD system.....they will

consistently say " its near such and such " .....well such and such isn't in CAD --

but

the street and the number is. In the event they are reporting something that

is not at their address chances are they don't know the address or cross

street so you can't get it in as accurately as you would like. They are then

more

than happy to give detailed directions -- directions don't help a bit if you

don't know where you are going.

>>>The CAD differentiates or gives multiple choices to choose from. That,

coupled with what the ALI shows (and what the caller says), makes it almost

impossible to go wrong.>>>

mmmmmm, but when you have 123 Court Street and 123 Court Ct. unless you have

input that street or residence a number of times you better be REAL sure which

one you are picking.

[Guest guest]

Same here Jim. That's one area (of so few) that our planning departments helped

our cause. In those areas with the multiple jurisdictions with matching street

names it may be necessary to obtain that information from the caller. I guess I

wonder if the caller in distress in the burning house is going to be able to

give an accurate cross street...

> I know I commented, negatively, on the cross street issue. The importance of

obtaining cross streets will be dependant on your agency and area and the way

your CAD is set up. I only frown on it because it isn't necessary to get such

info at my agency. While we have matching street names, etc... The CAD

differentiates or gives multiple choices to choose from. That, coupled with

what the ALI shows (and what the caller says), makes it almost impossible to go

wrong.

>

> Jim

> Mr 911

> TriCom

/

Firefighter Specialist/EMT-ST

Communications Support Group

Charlottesville, VA Fire Dept.

www.cfdonline.org

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/21/2003 7:26:34 AM Central Standard Time,

smpd9508@... writes:

if it is in the book to ask, then we HAVE to ask or we get our butts chewed

out.

That is such BS... I think the POWER is getting to your management.. Id

probly quit that agency.

jamie in iowa

DCSO

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/21/2003 11:08:44 AM Central Standard Time,

gfwebpge@... writes:

Aside from that -- asking or stating " your cross street is _____ " only takes

what 15 seconds? That you can otherwise be typing in information,

dispatching

units, etc. What I have found on occasion that by making that comment it can

be reassuring to the caller that you really DO know where they are.

15 SECONDS is alot of time!! I don't think anyone can argue whos right and

wrong.. it all depends on where you live..

jamie in iowa

DCSO

[Guest guest]

I was also going to not chime in on this one..but...

nothing is more important than a valid location..period

if we don't know where they are they can't get help. In New York city, every

911 call is answered: Police Operator (operators number) Where is your

emergency?

after an address is given the cross streets are verbally confirmed with the

caller. If the caller is for EMS or FD the call is conferenced into the

appropriate dispatcher, and NYPD stays on the line until the caller hangs up.

First on and last off is the official policy to make sure that there is minimal

chance of a location change or a bad hand off. If the caller disconnects early,

the 911 operator can give the EMS or FD dispatchers whatever information was

obtained in the initial contact. Reality is that sometimes you only get one

call...even on a fire, so treat them like they are the only source of your info.

Multiple calls allow for more information to be obtained, but the danger not

sending on a similar incident at or near the main job is always present. There

can (and have been) 2 fires within a block of each other..and incidents that are

not visible from the street are even more dangerous. Relying on technology to

be 100% reliable and without address errors is always a

danger and I would rather take the few seconds to verify cross streets than to

send to the wrong location.

I realize that the NYPD has more staff than anyone in the world..but the call

volume on a normal day (33,000+) is also higher than most places do in a week. I

have been involved with many " bad " call investigation's over the years and the

bottom line is that it is always easier to second guess the operator the next

morning. The reality of taking a live call is nothing like sitting in a quiet

room drinking a cup of coffee and playing a reproduction (which is is almost

always much clearer without extraneous noise and no headset static)

Jim

[Guest guest]

<<<work in a secondary PSAP and I can tell you that PD transferred 911's are

not verified. Most local PD's want to pass the call as fast as they can.>>>

Yes.....but the more time that is spent interviewing the caller the more time

is lost getting help on the way. Myself, I DO quickly verify the address to

be sure its not in our city and get some sort of type code -- crash, noise,

robbery, etc.....which the caller usually gives in the first few seconds after

you answer. After that, once I have a location and type I don't want to waste

precious seconds with a full interview.

And, when I worked cell 911 it would amaze me when the caller would initially

tell me one thing and as I put through the call heard something entirely

different to the transfer point. The first few times I recall wondering if some

how I lost one call, got a second and transferred the wrong one. I'd find out

no, it was the same caller by the location, just a different story for the

transfer point.

[Guest guest]

>

> Yes.....but the more time that is spent interviewing

> the caller the more time

> is lost getting help on the way. Myself, I DO

> quickly verify the address to

> be sure its not in our city and get some sort of

> type code -- crash, noise,

> robbery, etc.....which the caller usually gives in

> the first few seconds after

> you answer. After that, once I have a location and

> type I don't want to waste

> precious seconds with a full interview.

I'm assuming you use CADS. For us, if it's a hot

call, we can send the call to the dispatcher then add

comments to the call as we interview (which is exactly

what we are trained to do.) The interview has to take

place, but you don't have to delay the dispatch to do

the interview.

As far as fire goes, though, I would imagine there is

a lot less to interview. I haven't trained in that,

yet, but I did have to call once. Of course, I

immediately told my address and that the fire was in

the kitchen and they told me to get out (which I was

on my way out, anyway.) I can't really think what

else they would need. Of course, like I said, I

haven't been trained in fire, so I'm probably wrong.

=====

Kim

I make a difference

Tulsa, OK

If you hear a voice within you saying you cannot paint, then by all means paint

and the voice will be silenced. -- Van Gogh