Re: 911:: 911 Operator Under Fire Over Call From Woman Who Died

[Guest guest]

Granted... the dispatcher/calltaker should have immediately

told the woman to leave the house.

But I simply cannot find liability on someone else, because

a person doesn't leave a burning building.

Weintraut

[Guest guest]

I'm with you on this one, and I'll try to keep my soapbox visit brief. I am a

big believer in providing instructions (we've done EMD for well over a decade

now) and my fire service experience tells me that time is critical and the

effects of toxic gasses can dull a person's senses, HOWEVER, there has to be a

limit to which liability can apply. I believe the original post stated that

about a minute went by before the caller was told to get out. What happened in

that first minute? Address verified? Type of fire ascertained? Caller's location

within the building and level of danger determined? That doesn't leave much time

for instructions within the window specified. All this is Monday morning QB'ing,

but you gotta find out that the caller is actually in the building that's on

fire before you can tell them to get out, and you better verify your ALI before

you let them off the phone, because if they are in imminent danger you may never

get another chance.

> Granted... the dispatcher/calltaker should have immediately

> told the woman to leave the house. But I simply cannot find liability on

someone else, because

> a person doesn't leave a burning building.

>

> Weintraut

>

[Guest guest]

Unfortunately this is a " SUE EVERYONE " type of world. I first read this post

the night after ironically taking a 911 Liability class. So I said to my self

- Self - Take what you learned and apply it to this incident (as a Monday

morning quarterback). I put the timer out and did a " mock " phone call to attempt

to get an idea of the time line. Well assuming (there's that word again), that

my caller was relatively calm and was able to verify, name, address, phone

number, cross St., building location, what type of fire, where the building is

on

fire, where the caller is in the building took around 52 seconds (again that

was answering myself in a regular calm manor) so that left maybe 8 seconds to

tell her " if it is safe to do so, please leave the building " I stopped the

timer and after that the time was 1 minute 4 seconds, so the instructions took

about 1 minute to give, the same that it seems to have took the dispatcher in

question.

I then looked at the call as a whole. Di I follow procedure, I verified

all the needed information required for call entry, I verified that

information, I entered the call in to CADS and sent it to the dispatcher without

delay,

and then gave survival instructions to the caller. All this was done in a

timely manner. So where is the liability? There was no negligence, there was not

variation from policy, the equipment worked, I just can't find it. Now I know

I did not hear the tapes of the call so we are all speculating on what

happened, but to me it seems they wanted the dispatcher to say something like

this:

Dispatcher: 911 what's the address of your Emergency?

Caller: Oh my God my house is on fire

Dispatcher: OK ma'am I have your information on the screen, get out of the

house, help is on the way

Caller: hurry Hurry !!

Line disconnect

I mean that's like 30 seconds right there and there was no verification of

address or number or anything, Now that would open up some one for liability

that's for sure But this dispatcher didn't do it that way, it sounds like they

followed the book and did it right. it truly amazes me that people are so " Money

Hungry " that if you accidentally sneeze on them in a shopping mall, they will

sue you, " someday maybe the courts and legal system will wake up, smell the

coffee and realize the avalanche they started is getting closer and closer to

them. One day the headline may read " State Court sued for negligence in

handling lawsuit " hey you never know......

Jeff Noonan

Dutchess County 911

Poughkeepsie, NY

Dispatcher 14-42

(My thoughts and opinions ONLY, not

that of my departments)

[Guest guest]

Some good points . i do not know about your jurisdiction though but in

ours we have ALOT of towns with that number main st. Cross streets need to be

verified to make sure it is not a new 911 number as opposed to a old number.

The other twist we are seeing is that you used to have a good idea where a

caller was calling from by the first 3 prefix numbers of the phone number, but

now

you can take your number anywhere so you can not use that. You get a

transferred call from 911, I assume that they would have verified the address

before

sending it to you, so now that makes it alot easier. But in our case up here,

just getting the address with out cross sts and confirmations could be a

disaster. Our motto is verify verify verify. Lord knows if we do not and then

send to

the wrong place we arwe truly liable.

Jeff Noonan

Dutchess County 911

Poughkeepsie, NY

Dispatcher 14-42

(My views alone and

not that of my Depts.)

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/18/2003 10:32:18 PM Central Standard Time,

barryfurey@... writes:

But I simply cannot find liability on someone else, because

> a person doesn't leave a burning building.

>

> Weintraut

Im with you too.. it wasn't the dispatcher fault.

jamie in iowa

DCSO

[Guest guest]

As everyone has stated we have not heard the tapes so I am Monday morning QB'ing

just like everyone else. I have to ask one question; At what point are we

seeking too much information? It seems that we have to draw a line and put life

safety above all else. The one minute delay in this case does not seem extreme

without knowing what kind of conversation transpired. So at this point I will

refrain from any judgement on that dispatcher. However, it is unfortunate that

this person was in training.

But how much verification do we put above getting that person out of the harmful

environment? Let me just play devil's advocate for a second.

In my case it would be something like this:

Dispatcher: " Fire Department "

Caller: " Help! Help! My house is full of smoke I think it's on fire!! " (the

usual emphatic screaming, high pitch, panic)

Dispatcher: " What is your address? "

Caller: " 123 East Main St. "

Dispatcher: " Okay, get out of the building (while looking at the ANI/ALI return

to verify). If you can, go to the closest neighbor and call 911 again. "

If it's a commercial/apartment type building we will tell the caller to pull the

alarm on their way out. When the caller calls back I then verify what's on

fire, where the fire is in the house, if there is anyone still in the house or

if everyone is accounted for, etc. If there is any discrepancy with the address

the caller gave and the ALI, we go by the address given by the caller. But life

safety is the most important thing. Now, there of course are any number of

variations in which it may become necessary to reamin on the line with the

caller (caller is trapped, immobile, etc.) which can usually be determined after

you tell them to get out if they can.

In all non-life-threatening calls we verify the address every time. At some

point we have to use ALI for the tool that it is, providing a location when it

may not be possible or feasible to solicit one.

Just my two cents... (and with this inflation that don't mean much)

Firefighter Specialist/EMT-ST

Charlottesville, VA Fire Dept.

www.cfdonline.org

Now, we're in a slightly different situation. We are not a PSAP. Our 911 fire

calls are fist answered by the 911 center and then transferred to us. In our

situation the caller has already been on the line for 10-15 seconds since the

calltaker at the 911 center answers and determines the type of emergency and

transfers the call to us. It becomes more imperative that we get that caller

off of the line in no more than 30 seconds. All information besides hearing the

caller's address is secondary and can wait.

[Guest guest]

I have been dispatching for 11 years and have personally decided, through my

expeiences, that a structure fire where the caller tells me they are still

inside and where the address is populated via land-line 911, I immediately

instruct them to get themselves and anyone else out of the building. As was

previously stated, we have to rely on our technology some of the time and I

choose to in this case. We are all paid (or underpaid as the case may be) to

make this type of decison many times each day.

Having said that, the fact that this person was a newbie precludes him/her from

being able to draw on that experience and to make that decision for themselves.

Newbies are hammered with " Verify, verify, verify " , or should be, throughout

their initial training. This poor soul will most likely bail out of our

profession, which simply adds to the tragedy of the entire situation.

[Guest guest]

I get 911 calls similar to what you are saying. We ask " North Meck 911, Do

you need Police, Fire, or Medic " . If they say fire or medic, we transfer

the call. We only verify on calls that we are going to handle. Medic/fire

dispatchers here do a great job of asking the first question of " where is

your emergency? " . Since they have the call, we disconnect and get the next

call.

Larew

nc911@...

Troutman, NC

North Mecklenburg Emergency Communications

sville Police Communications

Iredell County Emergency Communications

www.nc911.com <http://www.nc911.com>

Re: 911:: 911 Operator Under Fire Over Call From Woman Who Died

Hey all.

I work in a secondary PSAP and I can tell you that PD

transferred 911's are not verified. Most local PD's

want to pass the call as fast as they can.

Dispatchers in my agency have been bit on the ass more

than once for not verifying an address.

We have one rd that runs through 5 municipalities with

the same number system. All could also have the same

three digit prefix for telephone numbers. Recently the

whole road was renumbered to designate a municipality.

Moral of the story: Don't count on a PD to verify

anything prior to the transfer.

Dave

Westchester County DES

New York

_

[Guest guest]

Best solution to verification question might be an agreement between the

primary and secondary PSAP's about who is going to verify. Often, both feel

the need to verify and the caller is placed in the position of having to

repeat themselves. However, whether the primary chooses to do so or not

should take precedence if they have more than one secondary since they need

to be able to do it the same way for every call.

Randy Mace

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 11/19/2003 8:27:17 PM Central Standard Time,

ekarsten@... writes:

I guess I got carried away.

.. but in a good way ! and its too true, sadly enough.

[Guest guest]

>Their name??? I hardly think that's important right now... I could

care less what their name is. Where their at in the building only becomes

important if they can't get out. Getting cross streets I guess is agency

specific, at mine we don't ask because there in the CAD, but if you need to

get them, then oh well. <

Name.. Not important, Cross streets.. most likely not important.

Phone number, not important.

The problem we may have here.. and I stress MAY.. Is that this

is a trainee and I know at many agencies they stress " read it

from the book " ... question by question... word for word...

DO NOT waiver from protocol.

Common sense can go out the window when a new person

has had it drummed into them that you do EVERYTHING a

certain way EVERY TIME.

A lot would have to do with how much time the trainee has

actually been taking calls. If it was a very short time the

trainer probably should have taken this emergency call with

the trainee still listening on the line.

Longer time... more responsibility..

I can't second guess this, know near nothing about the call, but

even at that... one minute on the line is fairly short time. I

probably wouldn't have been on that long... verify address..

get out.... but one minute's not bad...

Weintraut

[Guest guest]

Sorry guys! I guess I got carried away.

----- Original Message -----

> Preach on ED

[Guest guest]

Hi all,

I don't know the details of the incident and I have to be honest and say I

haven't read the entire thread, but to my way of thinking shouldn't the

instinct for survival that we all have tell anyone to get out of a burning

building as soon as possible if you possibly can, without waiting for

someone to tell you to do so.

In Britain the Fire Brigade have run a campaign, the main statement of which

is:-

" Get Out, Get The Fire Brigade Out, Stay Out " .

That seems a pretty good order of actions to me.

I have been involved in a couple, thankfully minor fire incidents, and the

only situation I could imagine calling from within the building is if I was

trapped.

I guess what I am trying to say is that surely people should take some

responsibility for themselves and not expect someone else to be held liable

when they haven't acted entirely sensibly.

Just my thoughts on the subject.

[Guest guest]

Again I have to disagree, in some places you may get 50 calls, we ofton get only

1, 2 if we are lucky - I believe verifacation of a address is of UTMOST

importance. If your fortunate to work in a city or town that does 1 agency or

town then maybe you can skate with out it, but rurally no way

Noonan

Acting Senior Public Safety Dispatcher

Communications Division

Dutchess County Department of Emergency Response

392 Creek Road

Poughkeepsie, NY 12601

(845) 486 - 2495

jnoonan@...

[Guest guest]

I have to agree w/ Jeff, we have to have an address, we dispatch 26 fire

departments and we have multiple duplicate street names throughout the

County, 21 Main Streets, some North, South, East and West, 6 Lake Roads,

difficult to send the right FD without an address. Just my 2 cents..

Mahoney

Radio Communications Specialist

- Office

- Pager

- Fax

Rockland County Sheriff's Communications

35 Firemens Memorial Drive

Pomona, NY 10970

[Guest guest]

I agree with Jim. No need for cross streets or Call backs or even someone's

name on a house fire. I am not sure about anyplace else but A house fire

gets about 50 calls. Even at 3am. So why waist the callers time in the

house.

Jim

Columbus Police

Columbus Ohio

[Guest guest]

Ok thats cool, I am not going to beat a dead horse. I think a lot has to do with

rural dispatch vs city dispatch. multiple agency vs 1 agency. The only true way

to verify a address is to confirm the cross sts. Otherwise the number could be

wrong and you could be blocks or cities away. You see it all the time,, units

sent to wrong address cause dispatchers picked the wrong on or sent to the wrong

on. Most are from lack of verifying. Reading a address back to a person who is

upset cause there house is on fire is not verification, thats just opening up

for liability. Everyone knows callers under diress will agree to about anything.

Phone numbers are important cause if you cant get a address or anything of that

nature you have a base to use to find someone.

Noonan

Acting Senior Public Safety Dispatcher

Communications Division

Dutchess County Department of Emergency Response

392 Creek Road

Poughkeepsie, NY 12601

(845) 486 - 2495

jnoonan@...

[Guest guest]

,

Thats the problem, we have a main street that is shared by different towns.

Some of these residence do not use thier new 911 number, some phone records are

not updated, there are many issues. There are roads in the same town that sound

a like, there are xyz st,xyz av and xyz rd all in the same town. There are many

variables that come into play here. Personally from the time the phone rings

till the time a person leaves, i do not think 1 minute is unreasonable at all to

ensure a correct response. (But its a pleasure sparing with the master lol)

Noonan

Acting Senior Public Safety Dispatcher

Communications Division

Dutchess County Department of Emergency Response

392 Creek Road

Poughkeepsie, NY 12601

(845) 486 - 2495

jnoonan@...

[Guest guest]

I understand the problems you're talking about with

addressing. I think most agencies have them, and I've

dealt with them.

The problem I have is when Dispatchers ask questions

that are not necessary, simply because they're " in the book " .

Such as " what's the nearest cross street? "

If this is an emergency call, and you don't absolutely

NEED that information... why ask it?

Sure... If you need it for location.. ask. But don't ask

the question simply because it's on a list.

Weintraut

[Guest guest]

Ahhhhhh now theres a point. I agree get all the information in the quickest

time, thats right, but make sure the addy is correct, see that Rich we always

come out on the same side buddy :-)

Noonan

Acting Senior Public Safety Dispatcher

Communications Division

Dutchess County Department of Emergency Response

392 Creek Road

Poughkeepsie, NY 12601

(845) 486 - 2495

jnoonan@...

[Guest guest]

And if I understand it correctly, once the full number portability regs take

effect (Dec 1, I think), we will NEVER be able to trust the ALI and,

assuming a communicative caller, will ALWAYS have to ask where the emergency

is occurring regardless of the circumstances (of course, if there is not a

communicative caller, we will have to hope the ALI indicates where help is

needed).

Randy Mace

> In our area the 911 ANI/ALI screen is not always right

[Guest guest]

From the devil's advocate:

Not unheard of in rural areas for a house to burn and NO ONE reports it

until the ash pile is observed.

Randy

> I am not sure about anyplace else but A house fire gets about 50 calls.

Even at 3am. So why waist the callers time in the

> house.

[Guest guest]

>>You see it all the time,, units sent to wrong address cause dispatchers picked

the wrong on or sent to the wrong on<<

?????????????????????????????

Bob

[Guest guest]

Below is part of an email from a dispatcher that works in the area. I am

trying to find out if she can provide me with the link of the media outlet

that did the story, to see if the tape is on the website

Jim

**************

The local media played the tape of this call for all to hear. Turns out, the

dispatcher was in training... Obvious question now is what in the world was

the Training Officer doing when this was happening??? Tape was pitiful, even

people I know who don't do this for a living were prompting, " Tell her to

get out... TELL HER TO GET OUT! "

Grrrr, Training Officers must stay vigilant, they are the ones who are

accountable!

[Guest guest]

> Verify address... tell them to leave..

>

> My point wasn't that the Dispatcher did anything wrong or right.

>

> It's simply that I can't blame someone else because a person

> doesn't leave a burning building.

>

> Weintraut

Don't get me wrong. We still believe in verifying and like I said, we do ask

for the address even in the case of the person reporting being in a house on

fire. However, we don't get hung up on holding the caller on the line to do

that. We ask and check the ALI return at the same time. Any discrepancies and

we default to the caller-provided address. Fortunately, our planning folks

don't allow same name streets since the city and county are on the same system.

There are a few streets that were " grandfathered " . City and county planning

helped to alleviate problems here by creating vastly different block ranges for

those streets as well as a two letter city abbreviation for each on the address

verification screen.

I don't think the dispatcher in this case was wrong. I'm paid to run into those

building but I still have enough common sense to get out!

Firefighter Specialist/EMT-ST

Communications Support Group

Charlottesville, VA Fire Dept.

www.cfdonline.org