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Re: Wise Traditions - GAPS

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I am reading her book now.

I agree with you that gut dysbiosis is very likely the root of autism -- as

well as all the food allergies that are so commonplace among kids toda.

Here are some wonderful videos with Dr. C-M and Donna Gates (Body Ecology

Diet) on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLP0Ijo2CK4 & feature=related

There are 6 videos total.

Ann Marie

On Jan 23, 2008 8:13 PM, <oz4caster@...> wrote:

> I just finished reading the article on Gut and Psychology Syndrome

> (GAPS) in the latest Wise Traditions. It sounds very plausible to me

> - that dysbiosis is at the root of autism, ADD, ADHD and other

>

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--- Ann Marie <inasnit@...> wrote:

> I agree with you that gut dysbiosis is very likely the root of

> autism -- as well as all the food allergies that are so commonplace

> among kids today.

Ann Marie,

I think that even nasal allergies may be tied in to dysbiosis as well.

It was interesting that Dr -McBride also believes that

dysbiosis in either one or both parents may play a role in starting

the dysbiosis in the child. This article is also the first reference

that I have seen to birth control pills causing dysbiosis, though it

doesn't surprise me.

Can you give us an over-view of the GAPS treatment for children?

Seems like I remember reading it's sort of a WAPF-SCD-probiotics

blend. I'm curious which probiotic foods she recommends and why, as

well as which types of beneficial microbes she believes are best to

get in our diet to re-enforce our gut microbes. I also wonder if she

makes recommendations for prospective parents in getting ready for

having children, as that appears to be important in helping to prevent

these problems. I would expect that she recommends avoiding vaccines

and antibiotics for children as well, especially if they have signs of

GAP Syndrome.

She also mentioned a technique to get kids that are picky eaters to

accept other foods. I doubt that it is a new technique, but I'm

curious what it is.

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On Jan 24, 2008 5:44 AM, <oz4caster@...> wrote:

>

> I think that even nasal allergies may be tied in to dysbiosis as well.

Yes, I personally experienced that. I cured my respiratory allergies (as

well as osteo-arthritis and chronic sinus infections) by going on an

anti-candida diet and taking therapeutic doses of probiotics when I was in

my mid-twenties.

I read somewhere that the yeast is very high in histamine (it may have been

in the GAPS book and may have been in The Body Ecology Diet by Donna Gates,

which I am also currently reading).

It was interesting that Dr -McBride also believes that

> dysbiosis in either one or both parents may play a role in starting

> the dysbiosis in the child. This article is also the first reference

> that I have seen to birth control pills causing dysbiosis, though it

> doesn't surprise me.

>

Yeah, Donna Gates writes about this too in The Body Ecology Diet. It is a

huge problem because so many women spend years on the pill and then have

babies -- and pass down the compromised gut flora.

It would certainly explain the monumental rise of we have seen of autism,

ADD, and allergies (all these kids allergic to peanuts, for example) in the

past few decades. Young women started taking the pill in the 70s and 80s.

>

> Can you give us an over-view of the GAPS treatment for children?

> Seems like I remember reading it's sort of a WAPF-SCD-probiotics

> blend.

Yes that is basically it. I posted the basics on my blog:

http://cheeseslave.wordpress.com/2007/12/16/how-to-heal-a-leaky-gut/

She also adamantly discourages vegetarianism. She says lack of quality

protein from animal sources causes a lack of immunity.

> I'm curious which probiotic foods she recommends and why, as

> well as which types of beneficial microbes she believes are best to

> get in our diet to re-enforce our gut microbes.

She recommends homemade yogurt, sauerkraut, kefir, creme fraiche and " other

homemade fermented foods " .

She defines probiotics as:

1. Lactobacilli - bacteria that produces lactic acid. She lists the members

of this family as: L. acidophilus, L. bulgaricus, L. rhamnosus, L.

plantarum, L. salivarius, L. reuteri, L. johnsonii, L. casei, and L.

Delbrueskii.

She says breast milk is full of lactobacilli. Lactobacilli produces hydrogen

peroxide which is a powerful anti-fungal, anti-septic and anti-bacterial

agent. It also keeps the gut lining healthy and intact. She says they are

the most numerous inhabitants of the stomach and intestines and are also the

most common bacteria in most commercial probiotics.

2. Bifidobacteria - B. bifidum, B. breve, B. longum, and B. infantis. A

large family of about 30 different members most common in the large

intestine. 90-98% of the probiotics in a healthy baby are from this family.

Second most common bacteria included in commercial probiotics.

3. Saccharomyces boulardii. Discovered in the 20s when a French scientist

noted that the Chinese treated diarrhea with an extract from lychee fruit.

4. Escherichia or E. coli - There are pathogenic members of this family but

there are also a lot of strains that are found in a healthy gut. She says if

you the healthy strains in your gut, this is the best insurance against

being infected by the pathogenic members.

5. Enterococcus Faecium or Streptococcus faecalis - These have been isolated

in human stools. Live in the bowel and control pathogens by producing

hydrogen peroxide.

6. Bacillus subtilis or soil bacteria - Discovered during WWII and used to

protect soldiers from dysentery. Not indigenous to humans. She says in the

process of evolution we have developed a need for this bacteria. Humans used

to consume soil bacteria in large amounts when we were drinking water from

wells and streams. They are very powerful at breaking down putrefactive

microbes. She says probiotics containing soil bacteria are the most

effective probioitcs on the market.

She says most probiotics on the market are not strong enough to have a

therapeutic effect.

She says a good probiotic should have as many strains of different species

of beneficial bateria as possible. A mixture of strains is more beneficial

than one group.

She says a concentration of the members of the three main groups --

Lactobacilli, Bifidobacteria, and Bacillus subtilis -- works best.

She says a good probiotic should contain at least 8 billion of bacterial

cells per gram and the manufacturer should test every batch and should be

prepared to publish the results of the testing.

She also says that GAPS children and adults must stay on a good probiotic

supplement indefinitely.

> I also wonder if she makes recommendations for prospective parents in

> getting ready for

> having children, as that appears to be important in helping to prevent

> these problems.

She recommends the GAPS diet and probitoic and EFA (cod liver oil)

supplementation for prospective parents -- *both* the fathers and the

mothers, as the father's flora impacts the child as well.

> I would expect that she recommends avoiding vaccines

> and antibiotics for children as well, especially if they have signs of

> GAP Syndrome.

Yes she does. She is not anti-vaccine but she does say that only healthy

children with good gut flora can tolerate vaccination (and I imagine this is

a very small population these days!)

She also mentioned a technique to get kids that are picky eaters to

> accept other foods. I doubt that it is a new technique, but I'm

> curious what it is.

>

She says finicky eaters are common with GAPS kids. This is due to the

overload of toxins which causes sensory distortion -- food tastes very

different to them -- as well as the problem that the candida in the gut

craves flour and sugar.

If the child has language problems as many autistic children do, she

recommends using a preferred food (chocolate or chips) as a reward for

eating the good food. You show them the candy or chips and then do not let

them have it until they eat a certain amount of the food they are supposed

to eat. She says you can also use other rewards like a favorite video. She

has you introduce one food at a time.

She says it's easier with kids who have language. The procedure is the same,

only she says you should use homemade desserts (allowed on the diet) as

rewards -- or other things like videos.

She says in the majority of cases children will start liking the food they

didn't like before. I totally agree with this. It's true with adults too!

OK that concludes my book report! I should turn this into a blog post. :-)

Ann Marie

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--- Ann Marie <inasnit@...> wrote:

> I cured my respiratory allergies (as well as osteo-arthritis and

> chronic sinus infections) by going on an anti-candida diet and

> taking therapeutic doses of probiotics when I was in my

> mid-twenties.

Ann Marie, so far I haven't been very lucky with my " cedar " allergy -

runny nose and itchy eyes from heavy pollen produced by numerous

Mountain Junipers in Central Texas each winter mainly in January.

Last year I didn't have much trouble, so I thought the allergy was

going away, but it was a very mild season on the pollen counts. This

year the cedars had a one-week orgy with very high pollen levels and I

was worse than last year, but still not as bad as I have been in the

past. I've been drinking raw milk/cream for almost two years and

homemade kefir for about a year and a half. So, I keep hoping :)

At least I haven't caught any colds so far this winter. Before I

changed my diet, I used to get at least one and sometimes two bad

colds by January each winter. I suspect the CLO I take helps with

that too.

> I read somewhere that the yeast is very high in histamine (it may

> have been in the GAPS book and may have been in The Body Ecology

> Diet by Donna Gates, which I am also currently reading).

Yes, apparently many yeasts produce histamine and tyramine.

> > This article is also the first reference that I have seen to

> > birth control pills causing dysbiosis

>

> Yeah, Donna Gates writes about this too in The Body Ecology Diet. It

> is a huge problem because so many women spend years on the pill and

> then have babies -- and pass down the compromised gut flora.

>

> It would certainly explain the monumental rise of we have seen of

> autism, ADD, and allergies (all these kids allergic to peanuts, for

> example) in the past few decades. Young women started taking the

> pill in the 70s and 80s.

That and the large increase in use of antibiotics. It's a shame that

conventional " health care " has not recognized these problems.

Consequently, most people are not even aware of them. This is the

kind of thing that should be taught in school.

> > Can you give us an over-view of the GAPS treatment for children?

> > Seems like I remember reading it's sort of a WAPF-SCD-probiotics

> > blend.

>

> Yes that is basically it. I posted the basics on my blog:

> http://cheeseslave.wordpress.com/2007/12/16/how-to-heal-a-leaky-gut/

>

> She also adamantly discourages vegetarianism. She says lack of

> quality protein from animal sources causes a lack of immunity.

> She recommends homemade yogurt, sauerkraut, kefir, creme fraiche and

> " other homemade fermented foods " .

I see on your blog that she says no gluten and no dairy for healing.

So, guess she means no commercial diary, since she also recommends

homemade yogurt and kefir. I haven't read about lack of quality

animal proteins weakening the immune system - that's interesting.

Does she cite references on that?

> She defines probiotics as:

>

> 1. Lactobacilli - acidophilus, bulgaricus, rhamnosus, plantarum

> salivarius, reuteri, johnsonii, casei, and delbrueskii

>

> 2. Bifidobacteria - bifidum, breve, longum, and infantis

>

> 3. Saccharomyces boulardii

>

> 4. Escherichia or E. coli - healthy strains

>

> 5. Enterococcus faecium or Streptococcus faecalis

>

> 6. Bacillus subtilis or soil bacteria

>

> She says most probiotics on the market are not strong enough to have

> a therapeutic effect.

That's a longer list than what I've seen elsewhere.

> She says a good probiotic should have as many strains of different

> species of beneficial bacteria as possible. A mixture of strains is

> more beneficial than one group.

That certainly makes sense and follows what I have read elsewhere.

> She also says that GAPS children and adults must stay on a good

> probiotic supplement indefinitely.

I assume this would be the " therapeutic " probiotic.

> > I also wonder if she makes recommendations for prospective

> > parents in getting ready for having children

>

> She recommends the GAPS diet and probitoic and EFA (cod liver oil)

> supplementation for prospective parents -- *both* the fathers and

> the mothers, as the father's flora impacts the child as well.

That sounds good for those who may have gut issues, which may be a

vast majority these days, but I'm not sure the strict GAPS diet (no

gluten or dairy) is necessary for those who have healthy gut flora.

> She is not anti-vaccine but she does say that only

> healthy children with good gut flora can tolerate vaccination (and I

> imagine this is a very small population these days!)

Yes, indeed. But I still doubt that most vaccines work well enough

and have low enough risk of side-effects even in healthy people to be

worthwhile.

> > She also mentioned a technique to get kids that are picky eaters

> > to accept other foods. I doubt that it is a new technique, but

> > I'm curious what it is.

>

> She says finicky eaters are common with GAPS kids. This is due to

> the overload of toxins which causes sensory distortion -- food

> tastes very different to them -- as well as the problem that the

> candida in the gut craves flour and sugar.

Yeasts certainly feed on carbohydrates. The theory that they alter

the environment of the host to favor food cravings by the host is an

interesting one but may be difficult to prove. I remember reading

about parasites that apparently stimulate certain behavior in the host

to promote their reproduction cycle, so it may not be too far fetched.

> If the child has language problems as many autistic children do, she

> recommends using a preferred food (chocolate or chips) as a reward

> for eating the good food. You show them the candy or chips and then

> do not let them have it until they eat a certain amount of the food

> they are supposed to eat. She says you can also use other rewards

> like a favorite video. She has you introduce one food at a time.

Hmmm ... I remember not being able to have dessert unless I finished

my dinner as a kid. This has been around a while. But it worked for

me most of the time :)

> OK that concludes my book report!

Thanks very much!

> I should turn this into a blog post. :-)

Yes you should. Have you had much success in teaching family?

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> Ann Marie, so far I haven't been very lucky with my " cedar " allergy -

> runny nose and itchy eyes from heavy pollen produced by numerous

> Mountain Junipers in Central Texas each winter mainly in January.

> Last year I didn't have much trouble, so I thought the allergy was

> going away, but it was a very mild season on the pollen counts. This

> year the cedars had a one-week orgy with very high pollen levels and I

> was worse than last year, but still not as bad as I have been in the

> past. I've been drinking raw milk/cream for almost two years and

> homemade kefir for about a year and a half. So, I keep hoping :)

Have you tried therapeutic grade probiotics?

Where are you in Texas? I grew up there and my extended family is in Dallas.

> >

> > It would certainly explain the monumental rise of we have seen of

> > autism, ADD, and allergies (all these kids allergic to peanuts, for

> > example) in the past few decades. Young women started taking the

> > pill in the 70s and 80s.

>

> That and the large increase in use of antibiotics. It's a shame that

> conventional " health care " has not recognized these problems.

> Consequently, most people are not even aware of them. This is the

> kind of thing that should be taught in school.

Yes, antibiotics too. I was given a lot of antibiotics as a child for

repeated bouts of strep throat. I think that played a very big part in my

gut dysbiosis.

>

> I see on your blog that she says no gluten and no dairy for healing.

> So, guess she means no commercial diary, since she also recommends

> homemade yogurt and kefir. I haven't read about lack of quality

> animal proteins weakening the immune system - that's interesting.

> Does she cite references on that?

Actually all gluten and dairy are verboten in the early stages of the diet.

She recommends introducing fermented dairy first, then eventually other

dairy products.

I'd have to look up the references in the book -- I have not gotten that far

yet but there are a lot of references in the back.

>

> > She also says that GAPS children and adults must stay on a good

> > probiotic supplement indefinitely.

>

> I assume this would be the " therapeutic " probiotic.

Yes

>

> Yes, indeed. But I still doubt that most vaccines work well enough

> and have low enough risk of side-effects even in healthy people to be

> worthwhile.

I agree with you on that. I'm not vaccinating my children (my baby was

vaccinated the first 4 mos. before I knew better).

>

>

> Thanks very much!

You are welcome!

>

> > I should turn this into a blog post. :-)

>

> Yes you should. Have you had much success in teaching family?

My husband is all for everything I'm doing. He has leaky gut so we are

taking Bio Kult for him. Also giving it to our baby since she is at risk due

to our flora that we passed to her.

My extended family is making some changes. My in-laws are fantastic. They

live in NY and read my blog daily. My mother-in-law supports everything I am

doing. She says she has seen the changes with kids in school -- she works in

public schools. She said there is definitely an increase in autism and ADD

and allergies and she does agree with me as to what most likely caused it.

They are now taking cod liver oil now and buying organic produce. The last

time they came to visit (at Christmas) they demanded to try the raw milk as

soon as they stepped off the plane. They loved it. They went with me to my

local buying club (raw organic foods) and the dairy store where I get the

raw milk products. They tried my kefir and kombucha and beet kvass and loved

it all.

They are now buying kefir and kombucha in NY (my father-in-law has very bad

GERD and he says it helps him). When they come to town in Feb, they want

some kefir grains so they can start making their own.

Ann Marie

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--- Ann Marie <inasnit@...> wrote:

> Have you tried therapeutic grade probiotics?

The only probiotic supplement that I have tried is Primal Defense. I

couldn't really tell it was doing much so I stopped taking when I

started making kefir about a year and a half ago. I'm not sure if PD

has enough microbes to be considered " therapeutic " - probably not.

Although, I suppose if you take a larger dose it would qualify.

How do you like the Bio-Kult? Can you tell if it's made a difference?

> Where are you in Texas?

Near Austin.

> I was given a lot of antibiotics as a child for repeated bouts

> of strep throat. I think that played a very big part in my

> gut dysbiosis.

I've lived in the Austin area since 1970 when I started at UT. I

didn't get my " cedar " allergy until 1981 and have had it every winter

since. In looking back now, I remember having a terrible sinus

infection after a cold and I think that was in early 1981. It was so

bad that I had excruciating pain on the side of my face, first one

side and then the other and my hearing was affected. All sounds were

distorted and music sounded horrible. I finally went to an ENT and he

gave me an *antibiotic* for the infection. The infection went away

and my hearing returned to normal, although it's not clear if the

antibiotic played a role. In those days I drank 3 or 4 sugary sodas a

day which I'm sure *did* play a role in getting the infection. It was

late December 1981 that I first had a runny nose and itchy eyes when

the cedar pollen started. Maybe it's just coincidence, but I suspect

the antibiotic may have helped to get my cedar allergy started

indirectly by causing dysbiosis. The high levels of sugar in my diet

probably helped to keep the dysbiosis going, even though I was not

overweight in those days (I was 29 in 1981).

> I'm not vaccinating my children (my baby was

> vaccinated the first 4 mos. before I knew better).

I wish I had know about all the problems with vaccines and antibiotics

before my 10 yo daughter was born. Almost all of the vaccines that

she received were loaded with thimerosal and she also had antibiotics

several times when was young. We noticed a change in her personality

after she had a battery of vaccines around age 2 - I think that

included MMR, but I'm not sure. She had symptoms very much like

" selective mutism " which is a mild form of autism. She has outgrown

most of those symptoms now but still has constant nasal allergies and

is on the shy/quiet side (much like I was at her age).

> My extended family is making some changes.

That's great! I started my blog mainly to try and educate my friends

and family although I'm finding that it's a tough sell. Most people

are at least a little interested, but are still brainwashed by all the

conventional health propaganda. It's a real challenge :)

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>

> How do you like the Bio-Kult? Can you tell if it's made a difference?

>

We just started on the BioKult a few days ago. We are on the lowest dose (2

per day) which you are supposed to start with the first week. DH and I have

both noticed that our bowels are moving more. He says he can feel something

happening.

I don't have any symptoms to weigh it against since all my symptoms have

cleared up.

However, I can tell you this... last summer my OBGYN put me on the birth

control pill after the baby was born. I started having my old symptoms again

within a month or so. Yeast overgrowth symptoms that I haven't had since my

20s. Most notably, sinus allergies and sores in my nose that would not heal.

I got off the pill after I read that it can cause candida (I didn't know!).

I started taking a probiotic and some Kyolic garlic, and stopped eating

sugar and carbs. I didn't really see a change. A month, maybe two, went by

-- still no change in any of my symptoms.

Meanwhile I ordered ThreeLac online. ThreeLac is similar to BioKult in the

fact that it has multiple strains -- I also think it is more potent than

most other brands (I should look up the numbers).

Within 3 days of taking the ThreeLac, the sores in my nose were gone. My

allergies disappeared within a couple of weeks.

So, that's my personal experience that corroborates what Dr.

-McBride says about most commercial probiotics -- they don't work.

Thy the ThreeLac or the BioKult for a couple of months, and don't eat

anything sweet or starchy -- and see if you allergies clear up.

> I've lived in the Austin area since 1970 when I started at UT. I

I went to UT too! :-)

>

>

> That's great! I started my blog mainly to try and educate my friends

> and family although I'm finding that it's a tough sell. Most people

> are at least a little interested, but are still brainwashed by all the

> conventional health propaganda. It's a real challenge :)

>

What is your blog address?

Sometimes people don't want to educate themselves until it is too late.

Others will come around in time.

Ann Marie

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--- Ann Marie <inasnit@...> wrote:

> We just started on the BioKult a few days ago. We are on the lowest

> dose (2 per day) which you are supposed to start with the first

> week. DH and I have both noticed that our bowels are moving more. He

> says he can feel something happening.

Ann Marie, please keep us posted on the Bio-Kult, maybe do a blog

article on it in a month or two.

> I got off the pill after I read that it can cause candida (I didn't

> know!). I started taking a probiotic and some Kyolic garlic, and

> stopped eating sugar and carbs. I didn't really see a change. A

> month, maybe two, went by -- still no change in any of my symptoms.

> Meanwhile I ordered ThreeLac online. ThreeLac is similar to BioKult

> in the fact that it has multiple strains -- I also think it is more

> potent than most other brands (I should look up the numbers).

> Within 3 days of taking the ThreeLac, the sores in my nose were

> gone. My allergies disappeared within a couple of weeks.

Wow! That's impressive! I wonder if anyone else has tried ThreeLac

and seen such quick results?

> don't eat anything sweet or starchy -- and see if you allergies

> clear up.

I don't eat much in the way of starchy foods. About the only

exception is a bowl of breakfast cereal, mainly for convenience. I

might eat a serving of beans or potatoes once or twice a week and a

sandwich with Alvarado Street sprouted sour dough maybe once a week.

However, for quite some time, I've been eating one grapefruit or

orange most days with dinner, mainly for the vitamin C. The last

several months I added about three or four bananas a week for lunch,

mainly to boost potassium. But each of these fruits has around 10-15

grams of sugars, so I'm thinking of cutting back. I should probably

try Chris's favorite: chinese cabbage (I do like cabbage). It has

both potassium

> I went to UT too! :-)

Hookem horns! At least they won their bowl game this year :)

> What is your blog address?

It's on my profile.

http://stay-healthy-enjoy-life.blogspot.com

> Sometimes people don't want to educate themselves until it is too

> late.

Yes unfortunately, most people don't think about health until they

have health problems. By then, they are much more difficult to deal with.

> Others will come around in time.

Yeah, and there's always a lucky few who see the light at an early

age. I wish I could have learned what I know now when I took my

nutrition class in college many years ago. They should have taught us

about Weston Price!

Although I have to admit that long ago I read that sugar is bad for

you - but that didn't motivate me to lose my sugar addiction :)

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I used Primal Defense with good results for my IBD and for awhile if I went

off it I'd feel terrible. Now I don't seem to notice as much of a

difference if I go off it. I also give it to the pets especially if someone

has an illness or problem and it really seems to help.

I haven't tried this others but I will definitely give them a try.

Dawn

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf Of

Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 8:18 AM

Subject: Re: Wise Traditions - GAPS

--- Ann Marie <inasnit@...> wrote:

> Have you tried therapeutic grade probiotics?

The only probiotic supplement that I have tried is Primal Defense. I

couldn't really tell it was doing much so I stopped taking when I

started making kefir about a year and a half ago. I'm not sure if PD

has enough microbes to be considered " therapeutic " - probably not.

Although, I suppose if you take a larger dose it would qualify.

How do you like the Bio-Kult? Can you tell if it's made a difference?

> Where are you in Texas?

Near Austin.

> I was given a lot of antibiotics as a child for repeated bouts

> of strep throat. I think that played a very big part in my

> gut dysbiosis.

I've lived in the Austin area since 1970 when I started at UT. I

didn't get my " cedar " allergy until 1981 and have had it every winter

since. In looking back now, I remember having a terrible sinus

infection after a cold and I think that was in early 1981. It was so

bad that I had excruciating pain on the side of my face, first one

side and then the other and my hearing was affected. All sounds were

distorted and music sounded horrible. I finally went to an ENT and he

gave me an *antibiotic* for the infection. The infection went away

and my hearing returned to normal, although it's not clear if the

antibiotic played a role. In those days I drank 3 or 4 sugary sodas a

day which I'm sure *did* play a role in getting the infection. It was

late December 1981 that I first had a runny nose and itchy eyes when

the cedar pollen started. Maybe it's just coincidence, but I suspect

the antibiotic may have helped to get my cedar allergy started

indirectly by causing dysbiosis. The high levels of sugar in my diet

probably helped to keep the dysbiosis going, even though I was not

overweight in those days (I was 29 in 1981).

> I'm not vaccinating my children (my baby was

> vaccinated the first 4 mos. before I knew better).

I wish I had know about all the problems with vaccines and antibiotics

before my 10 yo daughter was born. Almost all of the vaccines that

she received were loaded with thimerosal and she also had antibiotics

several times when was young. We noticed a change in her personality

after she had a battery of vaccines around age 2 - I think that

included MMR, but I'm not sure. She had symptoms very much like

" selective mutism " which is a mild form of autism. She has outgrown

most of those symptoms now but still has constant nasal allergies and

is on the shy/quiet side (much like I was at her age).

> My extended family is making some changes.

That's great! I started my blog mainly to try and educate my friends

and family although I'm finding that it's a tough sell. Most people

are at least a little interested, but are still brainwashed by all the

conventional health propaganda. It's a real challenge :)

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I have a question myself. I have been wondering about the birth canal

exposure issue. My baby - now 4 mos. was still firmly in her bag of

waters when crowning. It was so strong it finally broke after several

minutes w/ her crowned and attempts at pushing etc. It burst and she

flew right out. It was a home waterbirth and my DH even heard the

sound of it breaking when he was crossing the room to hopefully not

miss her arrival.

If the canal is what exposes them to it, does she not have any bad

now? Anyone have any ideas if she still was exposed?

Do i buy some special type for babes and fill her up before the bad

ones get a chance? If so what kind?

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On Jan 25, 2008 9:34 PM, <beauty4ashesisaiah61@...> wrote:

>

> If the canal is what exposes them to it, does she not have any bad

> now? Anyone have any ideas if she still was exposed?

Sorry, exposes them to what?

It is not related to the birth canal. Babies get their probiotics from the

womb and from breastfeeding.

Do i buy some special type for babes and fill her up before the bad

> ones get a chance? If so what kind?

Sorry, special type of what?

Ann Marie

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> > If the canal is what exposes them to it, does she not have any bad

> > now? Anyone have any ideas if she still was exposed?

> Sorry, exposes them to what?

> It is not related to the birth canal. Babies get their probiotics from

> the

> womb and from breastfeeding.

The infant is absolutely colonized at birth via birth canal and whoever

handles the baby without gloves. That is why C-section babies don't have as

good of gut flora as vaginally born babies.

That's also why you should never allow the hospital to give your newborn a

bath, so they can't handle your baby without gloves!

Here's just two studies on the subject. I know there are quite a few more,

and a good beginning body of knowledge on the subject. I'm short on time or

I'd explain more.

Gerstley JR, Howell KM, Nagel BR. Some factors influencing the fecal flora

of infants. Am J Dis Child 1932; 43:555.

Gronlund MM, et al. Fecal microflora in healthy infants born by different

methods of delivery: permanent changes in intestinal flora after cesarean

delivery. J Pediatr Gastroenterol Nutr 1999; 28:19-25.

KerryAnn

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> If the canal is what exposes them to it, does she not have any bad

> now? Anyone have any ideas if she still was exposed?

The birth canal is only a portion of the equation. Who handles the baby

with their bare hands after birth also has a large impact, as skin

colonization leads to gut colonization. That's why I highly recommend that

you not allow the baby to be bathed and only have family members handle the

baby bare-handed for the first few days.

The other critical factor in colonization is what the child was exposed to

orally. If they were only nursed and not given *anything else* orally

(including gripe water, medications, etc...), the bacterial balance is much

better.

http://www.naba-breastfeeding.org/images/Just%20one.pdf

KerryAnn

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I agree - - however, the most important issue is the mother's intestinal

flora and it outweighs all those other issues.

Breastfeeding is designed to populate the baby's gut with the mother's

flora. Breast milk with an abundance of healthy flora will overcome a little

gripe water (although I agree, it's best to avoid and best to avoid all

medications).

I had a cesarean (the baby was breech; there was no getting around it). I do

not think that is as big of an issue as breastfeeding or not breastfeeding

and the condition of the mother's intestinal flora.

Dr. -McBride says, in her book " Gut & Psychology Syndrome " (a must

read!),

" So, what happens after a baby is born? The most important thing that should

happen is breastfeeding. Breast milk, particularly colostrum in the first

days after birth is vital for appropriate population of the baby's digestive

system with healthy microbial flora. It is known that bottle-fed babies

develop completely different gut flora to the breast fed babies. That flora

later on predisposes bottle-fed babies asthma, eczema, different other

allergies and other health problems. "

She doesn't say anything in her book about c-sections or birth canal. It is

during the early days of a baby's life that the baby's gut is populated with

flora. And if the mother's milk is inadequate due to the mother's damaged

gut flora, the baby's gut flora will be imbalanced as well.

I was also put on the birth control pill one month after my birth. I had no

idea this would damage my gut flora. I got off of it after a couple of

months when I started having symptoms of a yeast overgrowth. I'm sure this

did more damage to her gut flora (via my breast milk) than the cesarean

section.

My baby also had to be supplemented with formula beginning at 3 months old.

I did not have enough milk (this was partly due to the need to begin

working). I am very grateful to have found the WAPF because I believe the

raw milk formula has helped her immensely in normalizing her gut flora.

We are still giving her raw milk formula and she is doing fantastic on it.

Of course the raw milk and cream has probiotics, and the formula has added

probiotics and whey. I'm also giving her BioKult (Dr. -McBride's

probiotic). In addition to that, she (9 months) gets lots of fermented foods

and beverages every day (kefir, filmjolk, beet kvass, kombucha, yogurt,

creme fraiche).

I guess my point is that there are LOTS of things you can do to improve gut

flora. The birth is not that big of an issue in the long run.

If mom is breastfeeding (and hopefully she is), it is critical that she have

healthy gut flora. If not, she must repair her gut flora via diet and

supplementation of beneficial bacteria. The baby must also be supplemented

with beneficial bacteria. If mom is not breastfeeding, the baby again must

be supplemented with beneficial bacteria -- as many strains as possible.

Here are some GREAT videos with Dr. -McBride and Donna Gates (author

of " The Body Ecology Diet " ) which cover this issue:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLP0Ijo2CK4 & feature=related

(this is 1 of 6 videos)

Ann Marie

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> I guess my point is that there are LOTS of things you can do to improve

> gut

> flora. The birth is not that big of an issue in the long run.

I'm sorry, but I absolutely disagree. There is research showing that

C-section babies never match the gut flora of vaginally birthed babies no

matter how they are fed. I'll have to go dig it up tomorrow afternoon.

KerryAnn

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Anne Marie,

My son is almost 5 months old. I had huge problems breastfeeding. I had to

have a C-section because my baby was too big and I wouldn't dilate. The

doctor said it's because my body knew I wouldn't be able to get him out. He

was 10lbs 1 ounce at birth and has a large head. I have a too-narrow face

and I was reading on here that it may mean a too narrow pelvis too. =( Any

ideas on how to eat better to make a smaller baby next time will be helpful

too! I wanted to do a natural birth. He's very healthy though.

Anyway, my milk dried up completely despite pumping and pumping and taking

herbs. I had no idea this could be a gut flora issue too which was TOTALLY

messed up because of all the meds I was put on including pain pills and

antibiotics. My incision ruptured and I had to have a wound vacuum and it

was pretty painful, disgusting and I didn't argue with the doctor about the

antibiotics =(. I stopped giving my son the pumped breast milk when iw as

put on the antibiotics and for a few days after.

I was taking Primal Defense but I never seem to get past the tummy upset

when taking it like I used to. I used to take small doses and work up to

what I knew worked for me and then I'd be fine but I can't seem to get past

the hurdle.

Anyway I am going to try those products you recommend but I'm more worried

than ever about my baby. He has been doing well on the NT formula however

we are BOTH getting colds all the time (once a month since the baby was

born) which I wasn't before I got pregnant. Gut flora again?? I am also

living with my parents while we wait for our new house to close so I'm sure

he's getting exposed to too many germs from people that eat the worst

American diet ever.

Is it too late for me to try and get my milk back? He got colostrums the

first 3 days because he would suckle but by the end of the 3rd day he

started to refuse and fuss instead because he was too hungry and I had

hardly any milk. I had to give him formula at the hospital (yucky stuff too

with soybean oil) because he lost a pound and they weren't going to let us

leave. Next baby I'll have Doug go home and make formula after we're

settled in from labor.

Anyway, the baby is so impatient and I tried contacting La Leche and got

blown off basically. So I appreciate any pointers and this may go off topic

so please feel free to email me privately at dawn@...

It is so exciting to think it could be fixed with gut flora. I am so

depressed and sad that I can't breastfeed him. I feel so strongly about it

and I feel like a failure.

Thank you so much!!

Dawn

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf Of inasnit@...

Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2008 9:38 AM

Subject: Re: Wise Traditions - GAPS

I agree - - however, the most important issue is the mother's intestinal

flora and it outweighs all those other issues.

Breastfeeding is designed to populate the baby's gut with the mother's

flora. Breast milk with an abundance of healthy flora will overcome a little

gripe water (although I agree, it's best to avoid and best to avoid all

medications).

I had a cesarean (the baby was breech; there was no getting around it). I do

not think that is as big of an issue as breastfeeding or not breastfeeding

and the condition of the mother's intestinal flora.

Dr. -McBride says, in her book " Gut & Psychology Syndrome " (a must

read!),

" So, what happens after a baby is born? The most important thing that should

happen is breastfeeding. Breast milk, particularly colostrum in the first

days after birth is vital for appropriate population of the baby's digestive

system with healthy microbial flora. It is known that bottle-fed babies

develop completely different gut flora to the breast fed babies. That flora

later on predisposes bottle-fed babies asthma, eczema, different other

allergies and other health problems. "

She doesn't say anything in her book about c-sections or birth canal. It is

during the early days of a baby's life that the baby's gut is populated with

flora. And if the mother's milk is inadequate due to the mother's damaged

gut flora, the baby's gut flora will be imbalanced as well.

I was also put on the birth control pill one month after my birth. I had no

idea this would damage my gut flora. I got off of it after a couple of

months when I started having symptoms of a yeast overgrowth. I'm sure this

did more damage to her gut flora (via my breast milk) than the cesarean

section.

My baby also had to be supplemented with formula beginning at 3 months old.

I did not have enough milk (this was partly due to the need to begin

working). I am very grateful to have found the WAPF because I believe the

raw milk formula has helped her immensely in normalizing her gut flora.

We are still giving her raw milk formula and she is doing fantastic on it.

Of course the raw milk and cream has probiotics, and the formula has added

probiotics and whey. I'm also giving her BioKult (Dr. -McBride's

probiotic). In addition to that, she (9 months) gets lots of fermented foods

and beverages every day (kefir, filmjolk, beet kvass, kombucha, yogurt,

creme fraiche).

I guess my point is that there are LOTS of things you can do to improve gut

flora. The birth is not that big of an issue in the long run.

If mom is breastfeeding (and hopefully she is), it is critical that she have

healthy gut flora. If not, she must repair her gut flora via diet and

supplementation of beneficial bacteria. The baby must also be supplemented

with beneficial bacteria. If mom is not breastfeeding, the baby again must

be supplemented with beneficial bacteria -- as many strains as possible.

Here are some GREAT videos with Dr. -McBride and Donna Gates (author

of " The Body Ecology Diet " ) which cover this issue:

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLP0Ijo2CK4 & feature=related>

& feature=related

(this is 1 of 6 videos)

Ann Marie

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> I'm sorry, but I absolutely disagree. There is research showing that

> C-section babies never match the gut flora of vaginally birthed babies no

> matter how they are fed. I'll have to go dig it up tomorrow afternoon.

Here it one of the studies. I know there's more.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9890463?ordinalpos=24 & itool=EntrezSystem2

..PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

The study went for 6 months, and showed that all C-section babies born,

regardless of feeding method, did not match the gut flora of vaginally born

babies by the end of the study. " This study shows for the first time that

the primary gut flora in infants born by cesarean delivery may be disturbed

for up to 6 months after the birth. The clinical relevance of these changes

is unknown, and even longer follow-up is needed to establish how

long-lasting these alterations of the primary gut flora can be. "

KerryAnn

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Hi, KerryAnn,

Clearly vaginal birth is preferable over cesarean whenever possible.

However, many women don't have that choice.

You said that it made no difference what the babies were fed. Where does it

say that in the study? Were any of these babies given supplemental

probiotics, or their mothers? Were any of the mothers drinking raw milk and

fermented or cultured foods? Do you have access to any studies that track

what the babies were fed for a longer period of time?

I agree that birthing techniques affect gut flora. However, I do not agree

that it is irreversible.

If it were irreversible, then how is it possible that Dr. -McBride

is reversing autism, food allergies and other disorders by giving children

high doses of therapeutic-grade probiotics and changing their diets?

Ann Marie

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I don't agree that " many " women don't have that choice. From what I

have been reading recently, most c-sections are not medically

necessary.

Getting a c-section isn't a choice when you have placenta previa - it

is something that should be scheduled in advance. Emergency

c-sections aren't a choice when you have a breech birth or the baby's

heart rate drops during labor... however, it is far more common for a

c-section to occur if the baby goes past the expected due date (either

because mom is sick of carrying it or because medicine seems to think

that 40 weeks from the date of the last period - not the date of

conception - is the max time a baby can safely gestate) or because the

doctor thinks for some reason the woman will be unable to deliver the

baby (baby too big, hips too small, etc). But why not let the woman's

body decide when the baby is ready? Why not let labor decide whether

or not the baby will fit? C-sections are easier to schedule than

births.

Then there are the c-sections that happen because mom can't push the

baby out in a reasonable amount of time. This is no surprise

considering the local anesthetics they give women to dull the pain

interfere with labor!

The c-section rate is far too high and totally not indicative of

medical necessity - like pretty much everything else, it is more

convenient than the natural path.

-Lana

> Clearly vaginal birth is preferable over cesarean whenever possible.

> However, many women don't have that choice.

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> is something that should be scheduled in advance. Emergency

> c-sections aren't a choice when you have a breech birth or the baby's

Actually, C-sections for a breech birth is due to OBs not having the

necessary skill set to deliver certain types of breeches. Studies show

certain types of breech births are safer vaginally than by C-section.

Many midwives have the skill set necessary to deliver breeches safely.

KerryAnn

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> You said that it made no difference what the babies were fed. Where does

> it

> say that in the study? Were any of these babies given supplemental

> probiotics, or their mothers? Were any of the mothers drinking raw milk

> and

> fermented or cultured foods? Do you have access to any studies that track

> what the babies were fed for a longer period of time?

No, you misunderstood- C-section babies and vaginally born babies, even when

exclusively breastfed, do not have the same gut flora at 6 months.

Specifically, because the C-section babies picked up some undesirable

microbes from the hospital environment that are hard to get rid of, they're

still there. I never said that feeding method makes no difference, I meant

that it was not the sole determinant of gut flora. Breastfeeding is

EXTREMELY important for gut flora, as I very often scream from the hills on

every list I'm on. http://www.naba-breastfeeding.org/images/Just%20one.pdf

There are no studies, to my knowledge, about gut flora of the infant

according to what the mother is eating- that's not profitable to a

multinational corporation yet. No are their studies about the raw milk

foruma in any form, to my knowledge. So, everything said is speculation at

this point, as far as I know.

There are some studies that tracked longer than 6 months. I'll track them

down once I have more free time and don't have house guests.

> If it were irreversible, then how is it possible that Dr. -McBride

> is reversing autism, food allergies and other disorders by giving children

> high doses of therapeutic-grade probiotics and changing their diets?

Once bad bacteria is established, it's extremely difficult to drive them

out. You can improve the ratio and suppress them and do a lot of other

manipulating, but driving them out entirely isn't always possible, depending

on the host, the particular bacteria, and the environment. You can see

improvement and reversal of a whole host of conditions and problems, but

that in no way means that you have banished all of the bad bacteria. It

just means that you have them under better control, but they're still there.

So reversing autism or any other condition in no way means that all of the

bad bacteria are gone.

I've personally fought bad gut bacteria my entire life- born 7 weeks

premature via C-section, never nursed, given repeated rounds of antibiotics

my entire life, including staying on them for an entire year at one point in

my teens. I have been able to get some of my problems to disappear or just

about disappear, but that in no way means they're all gone, just better

under control. And, interestingly enough, I never had any digestive

symptoms of any problems until I became seriously ill in one day. My health

went from 'ok' to 'severely sick' in literally one meal.

KerryAnn

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Indeed, some years ago, a grad student surveyed the out-of-hospital

midwives here in Indiana (a state-wide survey) and found that they had

a 2% C-section rate. For comparison, my local hospital is somewhat

lower than the national average though is approaching it - somewhere

around 25-30% I think.

-jennifer

On Jan 26, 2008, at 5:58 PM, KerryAnn at CookingTF.com wrote:

>> is something that should be scheduled in advance. Emergency

>> c-sections aren't a choice when you have a breech birth or the baby's

>

> Actually, C-sections for a breech birth is due to OBs not having the

> necessary skill set to deliver certain types of breeches. Studies

> show

> certain types of breech births are safer vaginally than by C-section.

>

> Many midwives have the skill set necessary to deliver breeches safely.

>

> KerryAnn

> www.cookingTF.com/mailer.html - Traditional Foods Menu Mailer

> www.tfrecipes.com/forum/ - NEW Traditional Foods Forum!

>

>

>

>

>

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Really? Awesome. Thanks for sharing that! I guess I should find

myself a real midwife instead of an OB... just in case.

-Lana

> Actually, C-sections for a breech birth is due to OBs not having the

> necessary skill set to deliver certain types of breeches. Studies show

> certain types of breech births are safer vaginally than by C-section.

>

> Many midwives have the skill set necessary to deliver breeches safely.

>

> KerryAnn

> www.cookingTF.com/mailer.html - Traditional Foods Menu Mailer

> www.tfrecipes.com/forum/ - NEW Traditional Foods Forum!

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--- KerryAnn at " CookingTF.com " <kerryann@...> wrote:

> And, interestingly enough, I never had any digestive symptoms of

> any problems until I became seriously ill in one day. My health

> went from 'ok' to 'severely sick' in literally one meal.

Kerry Ann, what have you done to recover your health?

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