Re: Dosing question

[Guest guest]

> Just a dumb question,

>

> would it be ok to split up my Thyrolar 3 into 1/4s and take 3/4 in

> the AM and 3/4 in the evening? I don't really want to take it to

work

> with me. Or should I go by how I feel? I am taking 1 in the am and

> 1/4 in the evening to get my body used to it and so far no problems

> (excluding waking up at 3am everyday - but that was happening

before

> this - one of the joys of getting old). And how hard is it to split

> pills into 1/4s? A 1/2 is no problem but.....

>

> Blech - Merck medco is changing their formulary and I can just see

> Thyrolar becoming the most expensive med ie $80 for 3 months. My

> orders for my refills of 1 and 1/2 have been filled as has my new

> prescription for 3 (each at $10 for 3 months - stocking up.) If 1

1/2

> works out I will just stay on that and get the 3s.

>

> Louise

My cardinal rule for everything is go by how you feel....and don't be

afraid to experiment to see what works best for you. I take my full

4 grains upon rising in the AM - have tried it various ways and

always come back to once a day..although now, I think the 1 grain I

add will be at 1 or 4 PM.....I seem to stay at a constant and don't

seem to need it more than once a day. But my doctor has always

enocuraged me to experiment with my dose to see what I find works

best...and I really think that's the way to approach it.

[Guest guest]

>I take my full 4 grains upon rising in the AM - have tried it

>various ways and always come back to once a day..

How did you take it before?

Janie

[Guest guest]

>I take my full 4 grains upon rising in the AM - have tried it

>various ways and always come back to once a day..

How did you take it before?

Janie

[Guest guest]

> >I take my full 4 grains upon rising in the AM - have tried it

> >various ways and always come back to once a day..

>

> How did you take it before?

>

> Janie

When I began Armour, I took it two grains upon rising and added the

second two at 4:00 PM - this is how the first holistic doctor told me

I might want to add the second two grains...it kept me awake at

night. Stayed on it like that for probably 6 months...and then tried

the 4 grains first thing in the morning, at his suggestion, because

he said more than half of his patients did better with one dose only

and this is also how he was instructed it should be used. found I

liked that better....from time to time I have gone back to trying it

at 1 or at 4 for a month or so, when others say it is much preferable

to split the dose...and I find the initial boost I get from it in the

AM isn't there with just 2 grains, somehow. This present doctor who

I have been seeing for around 6 years says take it all in the AM...so

I have stayed with that. maybe a year ago, he also said that he

usually tells people to take the whole dose at once upon rising,

because this is the time your thyroid normally releases the hormones,

but if I wanted to try splitting it, I could. I find the whole thing

at once carries me thru the day with a steady energy..any other way,

there are some peaks and valleys for me.

[Guest guest]

>...and then tried the 4 grains first thing in the morning, at his

suggestion

Interesting and amazing. Glad you shared that. I got started on the

dividing of the dose after reading a Top Doc and his methods with

Armour, plus reading that the thyroid gives out the T3 throughout

the day.

I wonder if you tried splitting it all again, but this time try the

2 grains in the morning, then one grain around 11 or noon, and

another around 2 or so. And sublingually, of course. Something like

that. Since T3 rises within 2 hours of taking the dose, you would be

getting all the benefit throughout the day, with hopefully no

problem at night. And, you might be able to decrease your dose since

you are distributing it all better.

But...it doesn't matter really if you feel taking it all in the

morning works great for you. It would be fascinating to know what

your fT3 levels were throughout the day.

I sometimes don't get to my first dose until late morning, and it

doesn't seem to matter for me.

Janie

[Guest guest]

>Although I feel much better on T3+T4 than T4 alone, I have noticed

>that if I take a blood test after having taking my med, fT3 levels

>are inevitably too high. Does Armour have the same effect on your

>fT3 levels?

Catarina, how high were your fT3 levels? Include the ranges.

If your fT3 gets too high (i.e. you have symptoms of it being too

high), whether on your former med or on Armour, it's just a matter

of decreasing the med a bit. Or, on the other side of the coin, it's

a matter of increasing meds slowly. We'll help as much as we can.

Also, have you ever had your Ferritin tested? What about adrenal

support? If, when you provide your fT3 labs, they are not high, yet

you had these and correct.

Janie aka ThyroDiva

[Guest guest]

> But...it doesn't matter really if you feel taking it all in the

> morning works great for you. It would be fascinating to know what

> your fT3 levels were throughout the day.

> Janie

Well...test number one...yesterday I took my usual 4 grains in the

AM, about 7:00....then took my additional 1 grain which I am starting

at 4:00 PM.....gueess what? I was wide awake until 2:30AM! This

could have been many things...but I suspect it was the late

Armour...we'll see what happens the next few days on the same

schedule.

[Guest guest]

> But...it doesn't matter really if you feel taking it all in the

> morning works great for you. It would be fascinating to know what

> your fT3 levels were throughout the day.

> Janie

Well...test number one...yesterday I took my usual 4 grains in the

AM, about 7:00....then took my additional 1 grain which I am starting

at 4:00 PM.....gueess what? I was wide awake until 2:30AM! This

could have been many things...but I suspect it was the late

Armour...we'll see what happens the next few days on the same

schedule.

[Guest guest]

> Yes, I had my ferritin tested last spring and it was slightly

elevated. What does it mean? I remember my doctor not reacting to it

(but then, he is a GP and not particularly knowledgeable when it

comes to thyroid disease and treatment).

>

> Catarina

having had high iron all my life, I can tell you that none of my

doctors were anything but thrilled to see the high ferritin

levels...saying I was in no danger of becoming anemic! Kind of like

they also tend to think low blood pressure is a GOOD thing (even if

it's making you sick)

[Guest guest]

Yes My FT3 and reg T3 levels were much elevated when I did take my meds before

blood draw. My regular doc (who draws my blood for my doc in Georgia) panicked.

I had to explain to him..he then totally understood that the T3 levels were

elevated because I had taken the meds 45 minutes before...so you can kinda

understand just how high they were!! I also explained in detail to him why the

TSH must be on the low side. Mine is 0.1 and I feel wonderful when it is right

there. He freaked about that too...I am slowly teaching him to stop looking at

the numbers and look at me. He is doing a fine job too! With the help of Doc

Milton and myself...maybe he will one day know the thyroid in and out. I

purchased him a copy of Broda ...Hypothyroidism the Unsuspected

Illness...It made all the difference in the world. He is a wonderful..humble

man and most docs are not....this has made it easier to work with him...

I never take my meds before blood draw any more...I always wait until after

now....unless my doc asks different.

Hugs to all...and I just want you all to know I love this group and I look

forward to reading all of the emails it has been such a blessing to me. Thank

you each and everyone of you!!

Hugs, Patti

Re: Dosing question

>Although I feel much better on T3+T4 than T4 alone, I have noticed

>that if I take a blood test after having taking my med, fT3 levels

>are inevitably too high. Does Armour have the same effect on your

>fT3 levels?

Catarina, how high were your fT3 levels? Include the ranges.

If your fT3 gets too high (i.e. you have symptoms of it being too

high), whether on your former med or on Armour, it's just a matter

of decreasing the med a bit. Or, on the other side of the coin, it's

a matter of increasing meds slowly. We'll help as much as we can.

Also, have you ever had your Ferritin tested? What about adrenal

support? If, when you provide your fT3 labs, they are not high, yet

you had these and correct.

Janie aka ThyroDiva

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[Guest guest]

> Yes, I had my ferritin

If you mean slightly elevated above the range, you are fine. But

again, we need to know numbers and ranges.

T3 will peak about 2 hours after administration. So, if you took

your blood test after taking your med, it will show a high number.

For me, having a 4.2 with a range top of 3.7 is ok. But it all

depends on symptoms. If you get symptoms of it being too much, it's

too much for you. One thing to learn is NOT depend on lab results

alone. They are supplementary information, secondary to symptoms.

So far, so good!!

Janie aka ThyroDiva

[Guest guest]

It can also be adrenal dump in late day.. how are they? If they are

fatigued they will try to produce after that second thyroid dose... if

they are not able to they'll keep trying until they can.... that results

in a dump much later.. resulting in inability to sleep.....

Topper ()

On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 14:59:07 -0000 " astrodiana "

writes:

> Well...test number one...yesterday I took my usual 4 grains in the

> AM, about 7:00....then took my additional 1 grain which I am

> starting

> at 4:00 PM.....gueess what? I was wide awake until 2:30AM! This

> could have been many things...but I suspect it was the late

> Armour...we'll see what happens the next few days on the same

> schedule.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/29/2003 3:53:28 PM Eastern Standard Time,

NaturalThyroidHormones writes:

> It can also be adrenal dump in late day.. how are they? If they are

> fatigued they will try to produce after that second thyroid dose... if

> they are not able to they'll keep trying until they can.... that results

> in a dump much later.. resulting in inability to sleep.....

>

> Topper ()

>

Very interesting .

I am having a " light bulb " moment!

[Guest guest]

> It can also be adrenal dump in late day.. how are they? If they are

> fatigued they will try to produce after that second thyroid dose...

if

> they are not able to they'll keep trying until they can.... that

results

> in a dump much later.. resulting in inability to sleep.....

>

> Topper ()

I'm on Cortef right now.

[Guest guest]

It can take up to two years or more to heal fatigued adrenals..... so

it's still a possibility...

In my case, after years of insomnia.... the key was to take adrenal

glandular during the first half of the day and multi-dosing thyroid

throughout the day with the last dose at bed time....

.... but I have no normal thyroid function at all... so I'm the odd

duck..... showing changes to a higher degree than many others....

Topper ()

On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 17:18:00 -0000 " astrodiana "

writes:

> I'm on Cortef right now.

[Guest guest]

> It can take up to two years or more to heal fatigued adrenals.....

so

> it's still a possibility...

Mine aren't all that bad...but I got tired of glandulars, licorice

drops and isocort and want them to be strong NOW...I have taken many

things over the years to support adrenals, and never had a problem

with them, other than in my 20's when they were shot..that's when I

got on a vitamin regimine, the low blood sugar diet, and really

started taking care of myself, including sleeping every weekened if I

felt like it, while my husband watched the kids. Now that I am thru

my chronic fatigue protocol and there nothing to stop me from getting

to my best ever, I want to speed it up a little. After my son got on

the Cortef and demystified it for me, I was no longer fearful of

it...and it's nothing short of miraculous in how I am feeling.

[Guest guest]

,

Oh? what did you spot about late day adrenal release that may apply to

you? We might be able to help you fine tune......

Topper ()

On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 16:54:07 EST susbarb1@... writes:

> Very interesting .

> I am having a " light bulb " moment!

>

[Guest guest]

> Anyway, I am glad if you keep telling me over and over again that

>the lab results should not count more than my own feelings of well-

>being (or the opposite...).

It's a hard lesson to learn for all of us who have grown up in a

medical society that places HUGE emphasis on numbers on a piece of

paper and ridiculous ranges. But we CAN learn it with enough

prodding---LOL. Did you know that the TSH range was created based on

the results of hundred of folks....and we now know that many of them

were HYPO!!

My weight gain patterns have changed! Who knows what did it--perhaps

the combination of being on Armour, supplementing with testosterone,

getting my Ferritin levels up, and taking Isocort. Plus of course, I

am more active than ever before, and I do realize the consequences

of the way I eat more than ever before. There IS hope!!

Janie aka ThyroDiva

[Guest guest]

> Anyway, I am glad if you keep telling me over and over again that

>the lab results should not count more than my own feelings of well-

>being (or the opposite...).

It's a hard lesson to learn for all of us who have grown up in a

medical society that places HUGE emphasis on numbers on a piece of

paper and ridiculous ranges. But we CAN learn it with enough

prodding---LOL. Did you know that the TSH range was created based on

the results of hundred of folks....and we now know that many of them

were HYPO!!

My weight gain patterns have changed! Who knows what did it--perhaps

the combination of being on Armour, supplementing with testosterone,

getting my Ferritin levels up, and taking Isocort. Plus of course, I

am more active than ever before, and I do realize the consequences

of the way I eat more than ever before. There IS hope!!

Janie aka ThyroDiva

[Guest guest]

Do you mean that the FT3 is peaked? Just wondering so I will know when to take

my meds on blood draw test-day.

Thanks!

Patti in MI

Re: Dosing question

> Yes, I had my ferritin

If you mean slightly elevated above the range, you are fine. But

again, we need to know numbers and ranges.

T3 will peak about 2 hours after administration. So, if you took

your blood test after taking your med, it will show a high number.

For me, having a 4.2 with a range top of 3.7 is ok. But it all

depends on symptoms. If you get symptoms of it being too much, it's

too much for you. One thing to learn is NOT depend on lab results

alone. They are supplementary information, secondary to symptoms.

So far, so good!!

Janie aka ThyroDiva

[Guest guest]

Hi Patti, I have always been instructed by my doc to not take my meds before

blood draw. To take them afterward. Have you tried that?

Patti Sue (also in Michigan)

What doctor do you see?

Re: Dosing question

> Yes, I had my ferritin

If you mean slightly elevated above the range, you are fine. But

again, we need to know numbers and ranges.

T3 will peak about 2 hours after administration. So, if you took

your blood test after taking your med, it will show a high number.

For me, having a 4.2 with a range top of 3.7 is ok. But it all

depends on symptoms. If you get symptoms of it being too much, it's

too much for you. One thing to learn is NOT depend on lab results

alone. They are supplementary information, secondary to symptoms.

So far, so good!!

Janie aka ThyroDiva

[Guest guest]

Hi Patti Sue -

I am still shopping for a doc, I believe. Although I was able to persuade the

'specialist' - endo at U of M hospital (referred by my PCP) for Armour, the

Dr's visit was not a pleasant one, and so I don't feel like going back there.

If I cannot get my PCP to continue on with the Armour protocol, I will go Doc

shopping. Armour has made such a positive difference in my life, I don't want

to give it up for ANYTHING!!!

I usually don't take my meds before a blood draw, but I was wondering how the

fT3 is affected - the before and after picture so to speak. If we are shooting

for the fT3 in the upper third of the range *before* meds, then what happens

after we take our dose? How much does it increase, and is that ok? I haven't

had any hyper symptoms, but according to what I have read here, I don't want to,

either....

I have forgotten - Are you in the Thumb? Do you have a Doc, or are you looking?

Do you ever go the Michigan Thyroid Support meetings in Plymouth? I haven't

been before, but I may try to make the January meeting. I plan to see if anyone

can give me the name of a Doc in my Health insurance plan.

Patti in MI

Re: Dosing question

> Yes, I had my ferritin

If you mean slightly elevated above the range, you are fine. But

again, we need to know numbers and ranges.

T3 will peak about 2 hours after administration. So, if you took

your blood test after taking your med, it will show a high number.

For me, having a 4.2 with a range top of 3.7 is ok. But it all

depends on symptoms. If you get symptoms of it being too much, it's

too much for you. One thing to learn is NOT depend on lab results

alone. They are supplementary information, secondary to symptoms.

So far, so good!!

Janie aka ThyroDiva

[Guest guest]

HI Patti, Yes I am in the thumb of Michigan and belong to the Michigan Thyroid

Support Group. I know very well and haven't been to any meetings as it is

quite a distance for me. I was thinking at one time to start a group up here in

the thumb, but I am so busy with my own duties right now that it is

impossible...a support group is quite an under taking.

What part of Michigan do you live in? I have yet to hear anything totally

positive about docs from U of M when it comes to the thyroid. As you have read

I do see my doc down in Georgia. I was seeing Dr. Walter Woodhouse here in

Mi...(Temperence)....I have since changed my mind and will resume seeing Dr.

Milton in GA.

Whatever you do, please don't give up on fighting for Armour. There are many

docs in MIchigan that do prescribe Armour...especially if you go to them and are

already on it. Most do not fully understand and will want to play with dosing

at the drop of a dime. You need a doc that totally understands what they are

doing. I can highly recommend Dr. Brownstein/Ng in West Bloomfield. They are

quite pricey..yet take many insurances. If you have HAP like I do..of course

you will pay out of pocket and it is very expensive..but they are worth every

dime. At this point in my life...I have four children ranging in ages of 17 - 1

1/2. I cannot afford anything too costly. When I see my doc in Georgia ;every

other year I have to go to see him. This year I will be phone consulting...so

that saves me a ton.

I feel as if I am rambling on lol sorry...would love to get to know you

better...be able to help in anyway that I can. I have advocated for many around

the world...if I can do anything please feel free to email and please don't

hesitate to call....

As far as the fT3....I think that with each person it is different..how much

does each persons body absorb etc...

I will look into your question and find you an answer. As for me...I absorb

that T3 like it is water, not much is free in my body....it can be different for

all.

Have a beautiful day...Hugs Patti Sue 29:11

Re: Dosing question

> Yes, I had my ferritin

If you mean slightly elevated above the range, you are fine. But

again, we need to know numbers and ranges.

T3 will peak about 2 hours after administration. So, if you took

your blood test after taking your med, it will show a high number.

For me, having a 4.2 with a range top of 3.7 is ok. But it all

depends on symptoms. If you get symptoms of it being too much, it's

too much for you. One thing to learn is NOT depend on lab results

alone. They are supplementary information, secondary to symptoms.

So far, so good!!

Janie aka ThyroDiva

[Guest guest]

>If we are shooting for the fT3 in the upper third of the range

>*before* meds, then what happens after we take our dose? How much

>does it increase, and is that ok?

Your comment above is one that is not actually clear to me! i.e. is

that target fT3 range before or after taking our Armour?? And here I

thought I was fairly knowledgeable, but this one has suddenly

STUMPED me!!

ALSO, the range is relative. If you read my post above from

Dommisse, he prefers the old range his national lab used to have,

which allowed the fT3 MUCH higher (5.4)!

So, the bottom line, once again, is how you " feel " on your dose. And

even more, is your current dose ridding you of hard stools, low-

grade depression, dry skin, hair problems, and low stamina?? etc. In

my example, just because you get lots of energy back doesn't

necessarily mean you are on your optimal dose. I've had fabulous

energy, but it dawned on me that I was still having other less

bothersome, but still hypo, symptoms!!

Janie aka ThyroDiva

[Guest guest]

I don't think they are shooting for fT3 in the upper ranges before dosing...it

is after dosing. Because we can't do that on our own..at least that is what

makes sense to me. But I plan on asking my doc that very question as soon as I

talk to him.

PattiSue

Re: Dosing question

>If we are shooting for the fT3 in the upper third of the range

>*before* meds, then what happens after we take our dose? How much

>does it increase, and is that ok?

Your comment above is one that is not actually clear to me! i.e. is

that target fT3 range before or after taking our Armour?? And here I

thought I was fairly knowledgeable, but this one has suddenly

STUMPED me!!

ALSO, the range is relative. If you read my post above from

Dommisse, he prefers the old range his national lab used to have,

which allowed the fT3 MUCH higher (5.4)!

So, the bottom line, once again, is how you " feel " on your dose. And

even more, is your current dose ridding you of hard stools, low-

grade depression, dry skin, hair problems, and low stamina?? etc. In

my example, just because you get lots of energy back doesn't

necessarily mean you are on your optimal dose. I've had fabulous

energy, but it dawned on me that I was still having other less

bothersome, but still hypo, symptoms!!

Janie aka ThyroDiva

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