Question

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I don't think you should ever feel embarassed about asking a question. We

all have to ask lots of questions to try and understand as much as we can

about this disease. I wanted to tell you the bit I know.The body makes

energy in a couple ways. One is the Krebs cycle which is an anaerobic

pathway ( whithout oxygen) and another is the Electron Transport System

which is aerobic (with oxygen). The complexes we are familiar with are part

of ETS (Electron Transport System). By that I mean Complex I, II, III,

!V,and V are part of the ETS. The aerobic pathway produces the most energy.

When it is not working properly, there is not enough energy being produced

and the anaerobic pathway (Kreb cycle) will try and work harder than normal.

As well as producing a small amount of energy itself, the Kreb cycle also

produces hydrogen electrons that go to the ETS. Lactic acid is produced in

the body as an end product of the Krebs cycle. A build up of lactic acid

happens because the Kreb cycle is being used more than normal. Since you

said your son had one of the complex disorders (I'm sorry I can't remember

which one) his body may have been relying more heavily on the Krebs cycle

for energy production and therefore had high lacitic acid levels. It don't

always mean that the Kreb cycle is not working properly just that it is

working more than normal. I want you to know these are just general bits of

info I have picked up and this may not be exactly how your son's disease

worked but I thought I would try and explain what I know to help you

understand it a bit better. If there is any questions you have about what I

have written, please feel free to ask me and I will try to answer them if I

can. One other thing, our bodies clear the lactic acid out at a certain

rate. If we are making more lactic acid than can be cleared than there will

be a lactic acid build up.

Take care,

.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 99-08-25 07:44:08 EDT, you write:

<< Since you

said your son had one of the complex disorders (I'm sorry I can't remember

which one) his body may have been relying more heavily on the Krebs cycle

for energy production and therefore had high lacitic acid levels. It don't

always mean that the Kreb cycle is not working properly just that it is

working more than normal. I want you to know these are just general bits of

info I have picked up and this may not be exactly how your son's disease

worked but I thought I would try and explain what I know to help you

understand it a bit better. If there is any questions you have about what I

have written, please feel free to ask me and I will try to answer them if I

can. One other thing, our bodies clear the lactic acid out at a certain

rate. If we are making more lactic acid than can be cleared than there will

be a lactic acid build up.

Take care,

. >>

;

I realize I haven't explained to you or anyone what the drs have told

me about Orion's illness,,, which isn't very much. Here goes: his muscle

biopsy told us pretty much nothing. The muscle tissue itself was very pale

and spongy in appearance, showing some kind of abnormality, but the tests

done on the sample showed nothing that could tell us anything. It was only

from the autopsy (and, by the way, the tests are STILL being done) that we

really learned anything. It showed that in Orion's brain, the Krebs Cycle

would go on just as it should, to a certain point... then everything would

just stop and " back up " ... Their theory is that he was missing an enzyme

somewhere in the cycle, in the middle towards the end, needed to continue

with the cycle. I have asked about the Complexes, but it not a problem with

any of them... They don't really know what it was. They know it was

mitochondrial, but pretty much nothing else. They learned from the autopsy

that his brain was made up entirely of dead cells (scar tissue)-- no living

cells. I have been told that there is no way he could have ever been alive

at all-- just the fact that he was is a medical mystery. Doctors have come

from " all over " for conferences on him... it seems like everyone is learning

from him. A lot of the area hospitals have been sent samples of his tissue

to study, and right now his brain is in Brazil. Orion's dr has told me that

he will be written up in the medical books, as the first documented case of

whatever he had... The autopsy report is not finished yet.

By the way, we are going for genetic testing on September 14-- only

four days before Orion's first birthday.

Orion's Mommy

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 99-08-25 07:44:08 EDT, you write:

<< Since you

said your son had one of the complex disorders (I'm sorry I can't remember

which one) his body may have been relying more heavily on the Krebs cycle

for energy production and therefore had high lacitic acid levels. It don't

always mean that the Kreb cycle is not working properly just that it is

working more than normal. I want you to know these are just general bits of

info I have picked up and this may not be exactly how your son's disease

worked but I thought I would try and explain what I know to help you

understand it a bit better. If there is any questions you have about what I

have written, please feel free to ask me and I will try to answer them if I

can. One other thing, our bodies clear the lactic acid out at a certain

rate. If we are making more lactic acid than can be cleared than there will

be a lactic acid build up.

Take care,

. >>

;

I realize I haven't explained to you or anyone what the drs have told

me about Orion's illness,,, which isn't very much. Here goes: his muscle

biopsy told us pretty much nothing. The muscle tissue itself was very pale

and spongy in appearance, showing some kind of abnormality, but the tests

done on the sample showed nothing that could tell us anything. It was only

from the autopsy (and, by the way, the tests are STILL being done) that we

really learned anything. It showed that in Orion's brain, the Krebs Cycle

would go on just as it should, to a certain point... then everything would

just stop and " back up " ... Their theory is that he was missing an enzyme

somewhere in the cycle, in the middle towards the end, needed to continue

with the cycle. I have asked about the Complexes, but it not a problem with

any of them... They don't really know what it was. They know it was

mitochondrial, but pretty much nothing else. They learned from the autopsy

that his brain was made up entirely of dead cells (scar tissue)-- no living

cells. I have been told that there is no way he could have ever been alive

at all-- just the fact that he was is a medical mystery. Doctors have come

from " all over " for conferences on him... it seems like everyone is learning

from him. A lot of the area hospitals have been sent samples of his tissue

to study, and right now his brain is in Brazil. Orion's dr has told me that

he will be written up in the medical books, as the first documented case of

whatever he had... The autopsy report is not finished yet.

By the way, we are going for genetic testing on September 14-- only

four days before Orion's first birthday.

Orion's Mommy

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I wanted to try to give you a little insight on a couple of your questions.

Carnitine is one of the substances used by the body to break down fats &

sugars and turn them into usable energy. there is a range of what is

considered " normal " carnitine in the blood and a corresponding one for urine.

When you have a deficiency of carnitine in the blood, first they will look

to see if there is an elevated amt in the urine (this is what my daughter

has--called carnitine wasting). If so, that means that the carnitine is in

effect just passsing through the body without ever being used. When this

happens, it causes a build-up of acids (lactate, pyruvate) and ketones

because they are all in this delicate balance called the Krebbs cycle. It's

sort of like when you break a cog in a clock mechanism. If one cog is

missing, it effects the way the other cogs work, as well. So, if the

carnitine isn't being used, then it effects all the other amino acids, and

all those other intricate, confusing chemicals that make up the metabolic

system. WHEW!

I'm exhausted, how about you?! :}

Now, as to the side effects, I don't think our computers have enough memory

and my fingers would wear out before we could list them all. What you will

find is that there are literally no two cases of mitochondrial disorders that

look alike. Even within the same " complex " there can be hundreds of

different scenarios. and keep in mind that many mito dosorders are never

given an " official " diagnosis because they are very difficult to find, the

doctors who can diagnose them are rare, and a hundred things

[Guest guest]

Sorry about the interruption of the last transmission, but my daughter

pressed the Escape button, and my mail was sent

Anyway, I was telling you that many things can effect the outcome of tests

that try to pinpont what the mito disorder really is. We have chosen not to

keep pursuing the diagnosis until Lexi's condition changes, since she's

really pretty stable right now. The tests are expensive, painful, invasive,

but NECESSARY!! So we are kind of in a holding pattern right now.

Some of the many symptoms of a mito disorder could include: fatigue, slow

growth, failure to thrive, feeding problems, cognitive delay, gross and/or

fine motor delay, sensory integration problems, breathing problems, heart

problems, ADD, weakness--and the list goes on. See, what you need to

understand is that a mitochondrial disorder means that you have a problem

with energy production. Let me back up a step. Inside of every cell in our

bodies is this tiny little thing (organelle) called a mitochondria. It's

called the " powerhouse " of the cell, because it's job is to take the incoming

fats and sugars from the food we eat and break them down into usable energy.

If the mitochondria don't function properly, the cells don't produce enough

energy, and the body can't work the way it's supposed to. The cause for this

can be either somethi9ng wrong with the mitochondrial DNA (mDNA) or a

deletion or mutation in the mitochondria itself. Every part of your body

that is a muscle (brain, stomach, all organs but especially the heart,

intestines, rectal sphincter, limb muscles) can be effected, to different

degrees. Depending on how severe the mitochondrial disorder is, the effects

can range from not noticable (Lexi's docs think that I, too, have a mild form

of it but never knew it) to fatal (talk to Orion's mommy, ), and

anything in between. Most of us on this list fall into the " in between "

spot.

There are lots of other metabolic disorders, but they are different from mito

disorders if they don't stem from a disfunction of the mitochondria itself.

It's amazing how intricate and delicate the balance is, and how devastating

the results can be if even one tiny piece is out of whack with the metabloic

system.

anyway, I hope this didn't confuse or overwhelm you, and that maybe it helped

clarfiy things. Best to you,

ruth

mom to Mitch--4 1/2 (maybe a MILD form, but showing no symptoms) and Lexi--19

months (suspected mitochondrial disorder effecting her respiratory transport

chain--causing a whole HOST of symptoms)

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 99-11-01 10:49:54 EST, you write:

> anyway, I hope this didn't confuse or overwhelm you, and that maybe it

> helped

> clarfiy things. Best to you,

>

> ruth

Ruth,

)) What do you think about you coming to Tenn to " splain " it to my PCP??

I'd be glad to furnish the air fare, hotel (or ya can stay here) and show ya

around the town a bit

TTYS

Romona

[Guest guest]

Oooh, Romona,

Sounds like GREAT fun!! Tell me when and I'm there:)

ruth

[Guest guest]

To what extent does AA implant a " self-fulfilling-prophecy " program into a

person that runs if they leave, and how does one reverse this process?

[Guest guest]

To what extent does AA implant a " self-fulfilling-prophecy " program into a

person that runs if they leave, and how does one reverse this process?

[Guest guest]

To what extent does AA implant a " self-fulfilling-prophecy " program into a

person that runs if they leave, and how does one reverse this process?

[Guest guest]

You know, I do feel " powerless, " my life does seem " unmanageable, " and I

still find myself seeking some magic " Power " to transform me and deliver me

from my bondage. I also feel that my " self-will " is flawed, that I need some

person outside myself to stick around and guide me step by step if I am ever

to have anything like a healthy, pleasurable lifestyle, and all of this

conflicts directly with what I know to be the truth--that I have more power

over my own life than anyone else, that I can probably manage it fairly

easily, especially in regard to basics and personal infrastructure, that I

must have a fairly strong will if I have done some of the things I have done,

that nobody knows better what is good for me than myself, and that I am

perfectly equipped to be my own navigator in life. How do I dig my way out of

the former mindset and get into practicing the latter?

<< Admitted that I am POWERFUL over myself and my situation and that I define

my own world and I can make choices to change it if that is what I want.

>>

[Guest guest]

What were the first few months like? I have been out for about seven months.

I am still pretty confused about a lot of stuff, though I was confused to

start with. I think I was actually better off before I got into it in some

ways. Any suggestions on how to move forward would be welcome. I was in it

for less than a year this time around, though a while back I was in treatment

for six months and then went to meetings for several years after. I have had

a lot of interpersonal problems and self esteem problems before--it's

interesting how going through AA, buying into it, and then leaving can

actually amplify things like that. MY BRAIN HURTS

<< This is a good question. For me, it is a feeling of guilt and shame

based on the subliminal messages and not-so-subliminal messages (i.e.;

If you don't go to meetings, you'll get drunk, or if your don't call

your sponsor...)

Time has been a great healer for me. I have been away for about 3

years-was a steadfast member of AA for 15. There was already an

abundance of guilt and shame in me when I walked in the doors of AA in

1981. To feel stuck between the proverbial rock-and-a-hard-place for

all that time, and at the same time denying myself the luxury of NOT

beating on myself-I really went through hell.

I have good partner and a good therapist that help me see where I am

and are teaching me not to beat on myself.

I don't know if this is what you meant, but all I know is that I feel

more human now and a lot less like obtaining spiritual perfection-which

is what I felt AA was pushing me to do; and I was pushing myself. And

those defects I THOUGHT were defects, well, they're just not so

important to worry over anymore.

W. >>

[Guest guest]

>To what extent does AA implant a " self-fulfilling-prophecy " program into a

>person that runs if they leave, and how does one reverse this process?

A lot. The entire AA dogma is a self-fulfilling prophecy, self running

program. It is designed to create powerlessness and submissiveness to others

and situations. If you beleive from their teaching you cant control your

life and what you do and live with and you have to learn to accept it then

why would you try to change it. You dont beleive you can.

I dont know how to reverse it. I was looking at the first step.

Admitted that we are powerless over (insert here) that our lives had become

unmanagable. First of all rewrite that to :

Admitted that I am POWERFUL over myself and my situation and that I define

my own world and I can make choices to change it if that is what I want.

Thats the only thing I can think today.

Louree

[Guest guest]

I believe the self-fulfilling prophecy of drinking is strongly

implanted. The process can be undone by tracing backwards and seeing

that the information that was absorbed was never evaluated properly in

the first place. This will disprove much of the indoctrinated material,

and free the person's mind of doom-filled thoughts. Essentially, this

is called deprogramming.

Apple

eudaimon8413311-@... wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=9759

>

>

> To what extent does AA implant a " self-fulfilling-prophecy " program

into a

> person that runs if they leave, and how does one reverse this process?

[Guest guest]

This is a good question. For me, it is a feeling of guilt and shame

based on the subliminal messages and not-so-subliminal messages (i.e.;

If you don't go to meetings, you'll get drunk, or if your don't call

your sponsor...)

Time has been a great healer for me. I have been away for about 3

years-was a steadfast member of AA for 15. There was already an

abundance of guilt and shame in me when I walked in the doors of AA in

1981. To feel stuck between the proverbial rock-and-a-hard-place for

all that time, and at the same time denying myself the luxury of NOT

beating on myself-I really went through hell.

I have good partner and a good therapist that help me see where I am

and are teaching me not to beat on myself.

I don't know if this is what you meant, but all I know is that I feel

more human now and a lot less like obtaining spiritual perfection-which

is what I felt AA was pushing me to do; and I was pushing myself. And

those defects I THOUGHT were defects, well, they're just not so

important to worry over anymore.

W.

eudaimon8413311-@... wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=9759

>

>

> To what extent does AA implant a " self-fulfilling-prophecy " program

into a

> person that runs if they leave, and how does one reverse this process?

[Guest guest]

Not sure why this was reposted, sorry

[Guest guest]

Not sure why this was reposted, sorry

[Guest guest]

Confusion was the norm for me too. Yes, I felt the same way about

possibly being better off BEFORE AA, because AA intensified and even

compounded the guilt and shame. I wish I could give you a magic pill

or formula, but a lot of it has been trial and error: seeing what felt

comfortable and in the meantime filling the void left by 3-5 meetings a

week with long talks with my confidante and picking up new habits like

working out and putting more of myself into those things. I like to

paint and write, so I started doing that again. Keeping a journal

helps me sort out my thoughts.

I think I would have sought out a therapist sooner if I hadn't had my

significant other to talk to and sort out the wheat from the chaff.

As I said, time away-productive time will help immeasureably.

We are with you.

W.

eudaimon8413311-@... wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=9767

> What were the first few months like? I have been out for about seven

months.

> I am still pretty confused about a lot of stuff, though I was

confused to

> start with. I think I was actually better off before I got into it in

some

> ways. Any suggestions on how to move forward would be welcome. I was

in it

> for less than a year this time around, though a while back I was in

treatment

> for six months and then went to meetings for several years after. I

have had

> a lot of interpersonal problems and self esteem problems before--it's

> interesting how going through AA, buying into it, and then leaving

can

> actually amplify things like that. MY BRAIN HURTS

>

> << This is a good question. For me, it is a feeling of guilt and

shame

> based on the subliminal messages and not-so-subliminal messages

(i.e.;

> If you don't go to meetings, you'll get drunk, or if your don't call

> your sponsor...)

>

> Time has been a great healer for me. I have been away for about 3

> years-was a steadfast member of AA for 15. There was already an

> abundance of guilt and shame in me when I walked in the doors of AA

in

> 1981. To feel stuck between the proverbial rock-and-a-hard-place for

> all that time, and at the same time denying myself the luxury of NOT

> beating on myself-I really went through hell.

>

> I have good partner and a good therapist that help me see where I am

> and are teaching me not to beat on myself.

>

> I don't know if this is what you meant, but all I know is that I feel

> more human now and a lot less like obtaining spiritual

perfection-which

> is what I felt AA was pushing me to do; and I was pushing myself.

And

> those defects I THOUGHT were defects, well, they're just not so

> important to worry over anymore.

>

> W. >>

[Guest guest]

One more thing that I felt when I left AA was that I had been betrayed

by the very entity that had promised to help me. And I was angry and

felt abandoned.

I worked my way through it and still have some residual feelings from

time to time.

I won't go back. Ever. (Thanks, APPLE!)

W.

eudaimon8413311-@... wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=9767

> What were the first few months like? I have been out for about seven

months.

> I am still pretty confused about a lot of stuff, though I was

confused to

> start with. I think I was actually better off before I got into it in

some

> ways. Any suggestions on how to move forward would be welcome. I was

in it

> for less than a year this time around, though a while back I was in

treatment

> for six months and then went to meetings for several years after. I

have had

> a lot of interpersonal problems and self esteem problems before--it's

> interesting how going through AA, buying into it, and then leaving

can

> actually amplify things like that. MY BRAIN HURTS

>

> << This is a good question. For me, it is a feeling of guilt and

shame

> based on the subliminal messages and not-so-subliminal messages

(i.e.;

> If you don't go to meetings, you'll get drunk, or if your don't call

> your sponsor...)

>

> Time has been a great healer for me. I have been away for about 3

> years-was a steadfast member of AA for 15. There was already an

> abundance of guilt and shame in me when I walked in the doors of AA

in

> 1981. To feel stuck between the proverbial rock-and-a-hard-place for

> all that time, and at the same time denying myself the luxury of NOT

> beating on myself-I really went through hell.

>

> I have good partner and a good therapist that help me see where I am

> and are teaching me not to beat on myself.

>

> I don't know if this is what you meant, but all I know is that I feel

> more human now and a lot less like obtaining spiritual

perfection-which

> is what I felt AA was pushing me to do; and I was pushing myself.

And

> those defects I THOUGHT were defects, well, they're just not so

> important to worry over anymore.

>

> W. >>

[Guest guest]

The first few months were hell for me. I had finished reading nne

Gilliam's book, then Ken Ragge's book, then I put the puzzle pieces

together and saw the horrific truth to my last encounter in AA. That

the guru who was running that meeting was a sicko sexual predator and

he was directing the meeting to disempower the young women, and they

were falling for it hook line & sinker. When I spoke up, the women

wouldn't believe me. They just thought I was crazy. He won. I tried to

speak up, but the group thought that I was the nut case. I'm not the

nutcase.

When I left, I found myself slipping into Step-think all the time.

There was even a point where I thought of asking nne Gilliam if I

could stay at her house over a weekend, because I was losing my

marbles. I managed without having to do that. The few friends I had in

the rooms slipped away one by one. Some of them avoided looking into my

eyes when we crossed paths in the street. Social death I call it.

It was very difficult.

I put up the website to make my decision concrete, otherwise I think I

may have retuned. I was programmed to be grateful for AA even if I

suffered terribly in the rooms. I thought my experience was my fault,

because I had been programmed to believe it was my fault. Then I

started thinking about all the suicides that had come & gone, and how

AA had not served those people, and how their deaths were always

chalked up to the " disease " for which NOBODY was getting a second

opinion. Hell, if any doctor told me I had a disease which would

require a time consuming ritual like AA -- a ritual I need every day

forever, I would get a second opinion, but seeking a second opinion is

a disease symptom in AA. Looking back on it, I can't belive how many

people just buy into it.

It took TIME to feel better. I had to GET CREATIVE and find different

ways to occupy my time. I STILL MISS the instant social community, but

I know that my mind is better off. I feel free to think. I have

gotten used to less people in my life, and I'm more interested in

quality friendships than anything else.

Apple

eudaimon8413311-@... wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=9767

> What were the first few months like? I have been out for about seven

months.

> I am still pretty confused about a lot of stuff, though I was

confused to

> start with. I think I was actually better off before I got into it in

some

> ways. Any suggestions on how to move forward would be welcome. I was

in it

> for less than a year this time around, though a while back I was in

treatment

> for six months and then went to meetings for several years after. I

have had

> a lot of interpersonal problems and self esteem problems before--it's

> interesting how going through AA, buying into it, and then leaving

can

> actually amplify things like that. MY BRAIN HURTS

>

> << This is a good question. For me, it is a feeling of guilt and

shame

> based on the subliminal messages and not-so-subliminal messages

(i.e.;

> If you don't go to meetings, you'll get drunk, or if your don't call

> your sponsor...)

>

> Time has been a great healer for me. I have been away for about 3

> years-was a steadfast member of AA for 15. There was already an

> abundance of guilt and shame in me when I walked in the doors of AA

in

> 1981. To feel stuck between the proverbial rock-and-a-hard-place for

> all that time, and at the same time denying myself the luxury of NOT

> beating on myself-I really went through hell.

>

> I have good partner and a good therapist that help me see where I am

> and are teaching me not to beat on myself.

>

> I don't know if this is what you meant, but all I know is that I feel

> more human now and a lot less like obtaining spiritual

perfection-which

> is what I felt AA was pushing me to do; and I was pushing myself.

And

> those defects I THOUGHT were defects, well, they're just not so

> important to worry over anymore.

>

> W. >>

[Guest guest]

At 11:29 24/11/99 -0500, you wrote:

>To what extent does AA implant a " self-fulfilling-prophecy " program into a

>person that runs if they leave, and how does one reverse this process?

The answer to the first bit may take some time to emerge, since there is

little research on AA's effects. But I have heard some say that there are

statistics showing that AA membership does not increase and may actually

decrease ones's chances of long term sobriety. If anyone has a reference

for this I would be interested, BTW.

To reverse this conditioning one first needs to be aware of it. Then

information about what really happens after alcohol or substance dependence

is a very good antidote. Stanton Peele's web site would be one good place

to look.

And if the old beliefs persist, I found cognitive therapy techniques,

learnt straight out of a book, a very good mopping up device.

JB

[Guest guest]

Free will, thats a perfect word for what was taken from me. Ive been trying

to think about what it was that I lost. That is definately it. I have never

had a sense of free will, just a sense that the fate of my life is up to

anyone and everyone that crosses my path. Good catch.

Louree

Re: Question

>You know, I do feel " powerless, " my life does seem " unmanageable, " and I

>still find myself seeking some magic " Power " to transform me and deliver me

>from my bondage. I also feel that my " self-will " is flawed, that I need

some

>person outside myself to stick around and guide me step by step if I am

ever

>to have anything like a healthy, pleasurable lifestyle, and all of this

>conflicts directly with what I know to be the truth--that I have more power

>over my own life than anyone else, that I can probably manage it fairly

>easily, especially in regard to basics and personal infrastructure, that I

>must have a fairly strong will if I have done some of the things I have

done,

>that nobody knows better what is good for me than myself, and that I am

>perfectly equipped to be my own navigator in life. How do I dig my way out

of

>the former mindset and get into practicing the latter?

>

><< Admitted that I am POWERFUL over myself and my situation and that I

define

> my own world and I can make choices to change it if that is what I want.

> >>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Accurate impartial advice on everything from laptops to tablesaws.

>http://clickhere./click/1701

>

>

>

>-- Easily schedule meetings and events using the group calendar!

>-- /cal?listname=12-step-free & m=1

>

>

[Guest guest]

I agree with that one. It sets up a catch 22, at least it did for me. That

everyone that I will ever ask to help will always betray me. That everyone

I meet will always manipulate my mind. Man I hate them.

Louree

>One more thing that I felt when I left AA was that I had been betrayed

>by the very entity that had promised to help me. And I was angry and

>felt abandoned.

>I worked my way through it and still have some residual feelings from

>time to time.

>

>

>I won't go back. Ever. (Thanks, APPLE!)

>

>W.

[Guest guest]

Man, I can sure second that. Or should I say, third that...

Apple

" snazy " wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=9780

> I agree with that one. It sets up a catch 22, at least it did for me.

That

> everyone that I will ever ask to help will always betray me. That

everyone

> I meet will always manipulate my mind. Man I hate them.

> Louree

>

> >One more thing that I felt when I left AA was that I had been

betrayed

> >by the very entity that had promised to help me. And I was angry and

> >felt abandoned.

> >I worked my way through it and still have some residual feelings from

> >time to time.

> >

> >

> >I won't go back. Ever. (Thanks, APPLE!)

> >

> >W.

>

>

[Guest guest]

It's difficult to do that retracing and to understand that the material was

never properly evaluated in the first place, Apple. There are so many

counsellors and respected scholars out there who advocate AA, and the study

results about AA's effectiveness conflict with each other. (Many of those

studies are probably poorly designed, but how many of us can discern that? I'm

not trained in spotting that kind of flaw.) There are also tons and tons of

people who don't know what AA really stands for but believe it's the only thing

that works, and some also who do know what AA advocates and still say, " Whew,

I'm glad I'm not an alcoholic/addict so I don't have to believe that stuff. "

(As though people can change their beliefs on demand.)

The Internet has been the first medium to bring people together who don't

believe AA is all that it's cracked up to be, so far as I know, and that's all

to the good. Still, look how small this group really is, compared to the

thousands (or more) who are still being funneled into AA, how widely scattered

we are. If we had found like-minded thinkers where we are, we wouldn't need to

have a newsgroup. Then, too, there are probably people who think as we do but

are actually too frightened to post. I used to be terribly paranoid about

posting messages critical of AA.

---

Kayleigh

Zz

zZ

|\ z _,,,---,,_

/,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_

|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'

'---''(_/--' `-'\_)

>I believe the self-fulfilling prophecy of drinking is strongly

>implanted. The process can be undone by tracing backwards and seeing

>that the information that was absorbed was never evaluated properly in

>the first place. This will disprove much of the indoctrinated material,

>and free the person's mind of doom-filled thoughts. Essentially, this

>is called deprogramming.

>Apple

>

>eudaimon8413311-@... wrote:

>original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=9759

>>

>>

>> To what extent does AA implant a " self-fulfilling-prophecy " program

>into a

>> person that runs if they leave, and how does one reverse this process?

>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Was the salesman clueless? Productopia has the answers.

>http://clickhere./click/1702

>

>

>

>-- Easily schedule meetings and events using the group calendar!

>-- /cal?listname=12-step-free & m=1

>

>

>

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