Re: Dealing with lack of sleep

[Guest guest]

" I am concerned that you may not have flushed the sleeping pills "

I feel this to , please get rid of them. Follow your heart, you

know you don't need them, please USE US instead of any pills, remember how

much hell pills have caused you. Regarding being alone, I am in the UK so I

think I am probably 9hrs ahead in time of most of you..........checking the

board is the first thing I do when I get up and the last thing I do at

night. I do this especially in the morning because I can then pick up

messages while Kim, and etc are sleeping! So if you need us

, use us please.

With Love

>

>Reply-To: Withdrawal_and_Recovery

>To: Withdrawal_and_Recovery

>Subject: Re: Dealing with lack of sleep

>Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 04:43:56 -0800 (PST)

>

>Hi ,

>

> I am concerned that you may not have flushed the sleeping pills. PLEASE

>do that right away! I am worried about you.

>

>

> Yes, part of recovery is not telling your husband everything. It is

>about personal responsibility.

>

>

> I am the one who slid to a point that the doctors could put me on drugs.

>I am the one who decided enough was enough and I want to recover. It is MY

>recovery, the good, the bad and the ugly.

>

>

> Yet you are not alone. I have heard you mention God before. The middle

>of the night is a great time to talk to God. He is going to be up anyway.

>He is the one you can pour your heart out to anytime. He can give you the

>strength to go on. I talk to Jesus because he is/was a real person.

>

>

> ***(note to everyone else: I'm mentioning God to because she has

>mentioned her spiritual life before. I am NOT trying to push my concept of

>God on anyone else)

>

>

> The middle of the night being creepy is a perception. It is probably

>because you don't want to be alone. We face ourselves in the middle of the

>night. There is just you, your withdrawal and recovery, and God.

>

>

> The middle of the night is a great time to meet yourself and get to know

>.

>

>

> I love the stillness and quiet. It feels like a very private time. I

>feel like I am being granted extra hours in my day. Sometimes I just stand

>outside and feel the stillness.

>

>

> See if you can push yourself to go to sleep a little earlier, like

>around lunchtime. Then you would have 3 hours before you children came

>home.

>

>

> I know this is hard, but you have gotten through a year's worth of

>withdrawal already. It is not going to last forever. You are much stronger

>than you give yourself credit for.

>

>

> Reach inside, reach to God. It is all there. You have everything you

>need.

>

>

> And we are here. We DO understand, in a way others cannot. And I say

>BLESS all the people who cannot understand because it means they have not

>suffered the way we have. I would not wish what we have been through on

>anyone but the doctors and drug companies.

>

> Hugs,

>

>

>

>---------------------------------

> Yahoo! Autos. Looking for a sweet ride? Get pricing, reviews, & more on

>new and used cars.

_________________________________________________________________

Are you using the latest version of MSN Messenger? Download MSN Messenger

7.5 today! http://messenger.msn.co.uk

[Guest guest]

and , It means so much that you care about how I'm doing. I haven't taken any sleeping pills since the Trazadone experience last Thursday. I haven't thought about taken anymore sleeping pills. The Trazadone experience was pretty scarey and miserable for me. But when you asked me if I had flushed the sleeping pills a strange feeling came over me. I would have no problem doing that with the Trazadone and the Ambien, in fact I will do that. How perceptive you are. What did you read in my letter that may have hinted to you that I might have difficulty giving these sleeping aids up? I had no clue about this being a tendency in me until I read your question and it got me to thinking. I have to be honest in saying that I felt a resistance about doing that

with the Sonata. I hadn't thought or planned on taken these pills (or so I thought), until you asked me that question and then I realized there is a part of me that wants to hang on to this sleeping pill. This concerns me too. In fact it frightens me that there is actually a part of me that wants to keep it around. I know this is all the more reason why I do need to get rid of it - all of it. I don't know why sleeplessness is such a fear and difficult issue for me to accept. I've not taken anything, like I said, and so far I'm surviving. I probably will never take it. So the Sonata needs to go to. I haven't taken any so why is the finality of "flushing it" so hard? This shouldn't be such a hard decision for me to make. Something really weriod is going on inside me. I can't explain it. I will get rid of the

Trazadone and Ambien when I'm done with this e-mail. I just want to cry. Please help encourage me to have the strength to "flush" the Sonata. I know it's up to me and it's my responsibility and I should do it for myself and my well-being. Please bear with me as I go through this thinking and decision making process. (Break - I have left for church, finish writing when I get back) I just got back from attending a women's group, who support each other through difficulties that we face in our daily lives. This was my first visit and I think I finally found a good support group I think will really help me. Several in the group have worked through coming off drugs and alcohol and were very encouraging to me. They have encouraged me to call them

day or night. I shared with them my dilemma and they were very understanding and prayed for me to rely on God and His strength to get me through and not the pills. This is so hard. I can't believe how hard it is to do this, but I'm done with the sleeping aids there in the toilet right now. Ugh, I have to be truthful. The Ambien and Trazadone are gone. I tried to flush the Sonata and I just can't. I don't know what else to say. I probably will never take the dam pills, but I can't get rid of them just yet. Why is that? I'm very confused, V. As I search deep inside myself, I feel a weakness in me - a dependency. I guess I thinking I want to hang on to the

Sonata in case of a emergenency or crisis when I might really need it. I know, there is so situation or crisis that I face that warrents taken another Psychiatric drug of any kind. That is, I know that in my head, but emotionally I feel hooked now. Something got triggered in me. I don't know if it's emotional, psychological, or physical, but I'm starting to feel a drug addicts pull to hang on to it. One part of me says don't do it and get rid of all of these sleeping aids, and then another part of me that wants to hang on to the Sonata. I really want to be honest and what I'm sharing is so embarrassing to admit. I should know better after being with this group for quite some time now. Skoog wrote: Hi , I am concerned that you may not have flushed the sleeping pills. PLEASE do that right away! I am worried about you. Yes, part of recovery is not telling your husband everything. It is about personal responsibility. I am the one who slid to a point that the doctors could put me on drugs. I am the one who decided enough was enough and I want to recover. It is MY recovery, the good, the bad and the ugly. Yet you are not alone. I have heard you mention God before. The middle of the night is a great time to talk to God. He is going to be up anyway. He is the one you can pour your heart out to anytime. He can give you the strength to go on. I talk to Jesus because he is/was a real person. ***(note to everyone else: I'm mentioning God to because she has mentioned her spiritual life before. I am NOT trying to push my concept of God on anyone else) The middle of the night being creepy is a perception. It is probably because you don't want to be alone. We face ourselves in the middle of the night. There is just you, your withdrawal and recovery, and God. The middle of the night is a great time to meet yourself and get to know . I love the stillness and quiet. It feels like a very private time. I feel like I am being granted extra hours in my day. Sometimes I just stand outside and feel the stillness. See if you can push yourself to go to sleep a little earlier, like around lunchtime. Then you would have 3 hours before you children came

home. I know this is hard, but you have gotten through a year's worth of withdrawal already. It is not going to last forever. You are much stronger than you give yourself credit for. Reach inside, reach to God. It is all there. You have everything you need. And we are here. We DO understand, in a way others cannot. And I say BLESS all the people who cannot understand because it means they have not suffered the way we have. I would not wish what we have been through on anyone but the doctors and drug companies. Hugs, Yahoo! Autos. Looking for a sweet ride? Get pricing, reviews, & more on new and used cars.

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

I have to tell you, this is ridiculous. This forum is not going

to become a place where people think it is acceptable to be " unable "

to flush a drug that is addictive and harmful. That's the kind of

behavior, attitude, and decision-making that got you taking

psychotropic drugs in the first place.

You are immersed in your own drama made worse from taking the drugs

last week. You've given your emotions all the power to make

decisions for you. Your intellect knows you need to get rid of these

drugs but you have fallen into the pit again of letting your emotions

dictate your actions.

Emotions cannot dictate actions. Emotions have the intelligence of

a two year old. That's why you were given an intellect -- to

override your emotions and act in your own best interests.

I also think this is a dysfunctional way of getting some of your

needs met. Well, that's going to stop. I will not let this group

become an arena for emotional acting out, attention-seeking, and

other inappropriate ways of getting needs met. Either flush the

pills or don't. If you don't, your goal is not what you state it to

be and you are being emotionally dishonest with the group and perhaps

are not really ready for a group like this.

To fill your needs, state your neeeds and then ask for help

generating ideas of how to get your needs met. You don't need to do

this for people to care. If you need more support at any given time -

- ask for it. You don't have to do something dysfunctional to get

it. ly, as you've figured out by now, nothing will get a person

shut faster here than that kind of emotional manipulation. It may

not be deliberate, but that is what it is.

Are you in therapy? I strongly recommend cognitive-behavioral

therapy.

I realize this email is very challenging. You can use it to run

away or you can rise to the challenge, stay, and do the RIGHT,

MATURE, and HEALTHY thing. It's your choice. We'd like you to

stay. But I'd also like you to climb back out of that pit you're in

and utilize what you've learned here. Your emotions are your enemy

if you allow them to dictate your actions. You need to stop that now.

Regards,

> It means so much that you care about how I'm doing.

>

> I haven't taken any sleeping pills since the Trazadone experience

last Thursday.

>

> I haven't thought about taken anymore sleeping pills. The

Trazadone experience was pretty scarey and miserable for me.

>

> But when you asked me if I had flushed the sleeping pills a

strange feeling came over me. I would have no problem doing that

with the Trazadone and the Ambien, in fact I will do that.

>

> How perceptive you are. What did you read in my letter that may

have hinted to you that I might have difficulty giving these sleeping

aids up? I had no clue about this being a tendency in me until I

read your question and it got me to thinking.

>

> I have to be honest in saying that I felt a resistance about

doing that with the Sonata. I hadn't thought or planned on taken

these pills (or so I thought), until you asked me that question and

then I realized there is a part of me that wants to hang on to this

sleeping pill.

>

> This concerns me too. In fact it frightens me that there is

actually a part of me that wants to keep it around. I know this is

all the more reason why I do need to get rid of it - all of it.

>

> I don't know why sleeplessness is such a fear and difficult issue

for me to accept. I've not taken anything, like I said, and so far

I'm surviving. I probably will never take it. So the Sonata needs to

go to. I haven't taken any so why is the finality of " flushing it "

so hard?

>

> This shouldn't be such a hard decision for me to make. Something

really weriod is going on inside me. I can't explain it. I will get

rid of the Trazadone and Ambien when I'm done with this e-mail.

>

> I just want to cry. Please help encourage me to have the

strength to " flush " the Sonata. I know it's up to me and it's my

responsibility and I should do it for myself and my well-being.

>

> Please bear with me as I go through this thinking and decision

making process.

>

> (Break - I have left for church, finish writing when I get back)

>

> I just got back from attending a women's group, who support each

other through difficulties that we face in our daily lives. This was

my first visit and I think I finally found a good support group I

think will really help me.

>

> Several in the group have worked through coming off drugs and

alcohol and were very encouraging to me. They have encouraged me to

call them day or night.

>

> I shared with them my dilemma and they were very understanding

and prayed for me to rely on God and His strength to get me through

and not the pills.

>

> This is so hard. I can't believe how hard it is to do this, but

I'm done with the sleeping aids there in the toilet right now.

>

> Ugh, I have to be truthful. The Ambien and Trazadone are gone.

I tried to flush the Sonata and I just can't. I don't know what else

to say. I probably will never take the dam pills, but I can't get

rid of them just yet. Why is that?

>

> I'm very confused,

>

> V.

>

>

>

>

> As I search deep inside myself, I feel a weakness in me - a

dependency. I guess I thinking I want to hang on to the Sonata in

case of a emergenency or crisis when I might really need it.

>

> I know, there is so situation or crisis that I face that warrents

taken another Psychiatric drug of any kind. That is, I know that in

my head, but emotionally I feel hooked now.

>

> Something got triggered in me. I don't know if it's emotional,

psychological, or physical, but I'm starting to feel a drug addicts

pull to hang on to it.

>

> One part of me says don't do it and get rid of all of these

sleeping aids, and then another part of me that wants to hang on to

the Sonata. I really want to be honest and what I'm sharing is so

embarrassing to admit.

>

> I should know better after being with this group for quite some

time now.

>

[Guest guest]

ccreel_04064 wrote: you said:<< I have to tell you, this is ridiculous. This forum is not going to become a place where people think it is acceptable to be "unable" to flush a drug that is addictive and harmful. That's the kind of behavior, attitude, and decision-making that got you taking psychotropic drugs in the first place.>> ***I did ask you to be truthful, honest, and tough when you see problem areas that I need to be made aware of and you have done this with your response. It hurts, but I realize it is the truth. **I've spent alot

of time thinking about what you have shared. I don't want to get stuck in this trap with psych drugs again. Ten years of my life have been "stolen" from me because I was on so many drugs that over time I wasn't real living life anymore. I was hibernating from my family and destructive to my husband and kids. **I was not the Mom I needed to be for my kids (I ran from them) nor the "present" wife I needed to be for my husband and put him through hell during my drugged up years. **I was being selfish and harmful to my family. I'm realizing this and need to own up to my destructive behavior. **I needed to be reminded how destructive and poisonous these drugs really are. So insidous they can be. I hate the fact that I ever allowed these sleeping pills into my home. I'm angry at

myself. <<You are immersed in your own drama made worse from taking the drugs last week. You've given your emotions all the power to make decisions for you. Your intellect knows you need to get rid of these drugs but you have fallen into the pit again of letting your emotions dictate your actions.>> **Even though it hurts so badly to hear these words, you again are right. You don't know how sorry I am, really, for being so careless and irresponsibile. What immediately comes to mind is how I also acted this way a few years back when I attempted sucide (and developed and addiction for self-injury) and again allowed my emotions to be in charge, thinking only of myself. **How selfish I was not to consider the impact my actions would have on my kids and family for taking this destructive path. How selfish of me to put my husband

through such hell, by allowing my emotions to be in charge. << Emotions cannot dictate actions. Emotions have the intelligence of a two year old. That's why you were given an intellect -- to override your emotions and act in your own best interests.>> **Again you are right. God gave me an intellect in order to make the mature and right decisions. I'm not a child any longer. I'm 42 yrs old and it is time that I grow up and use my head and not emotions. I'll never become a healthy, mature mother for my kids if I don't start letting my mind and inner wisdom be in control of my emotions and actions. <<I also think this is a dysfunctional way of getting some of your needs met. Well, that's going to stop. I will not let this group become an arena for emotional acting out, attention-seeking, and other inappropriate ways of getting needs

met.>> **I wasn't aware of doing this at the time, but I can now see what you have said makes so much sense. I need to become more and more aware of how I do this. Not just in this group, but also in my relationship with my husband and even my kids. **I can see times when I unfortunately have used my kids to meet my emotional needs and this is so wrong. It's called emotional abuse within the family. I definitly need to learn how to stop doing this. **I'm so desparate to end this destructive behavior in me. I do need expert advice and help to stop it. <<Either flush the pills or don't. If you don't, your goal is not what you state it to be and you are being emotionally dishonest with the group and perhaps are not really ready for a group like this.>> **After

much turmoil mentally, as you would expect it wasn't easy, but I finally flushed them. I hate the fact that these drugs can be so insidous and can begin to create within me this feeling of dependency and loss that I no longer have them. **These drugs are destructive not just physically, but emotionally. I know I've created a basis that might cause you to not trust me, but I really have flushed them. Please believe me. I don't want to allow another drug to enter my body that would damage my brain and body. **I've worked hard this past year to come off so many drugs. I realize I don't want to allow any more "crappy posionous" drugs into my body to create more harm and damage inside my body. I have enough on my platter when it comes to coming off the Geodon, and Klonopin. I don't need to complicate the situation any further. <<To fill your needs, state your neeeds and then ask for help generating ideas of how to get your needs met. You don't need to do this for people to care. If you need more support at any given time - ask for it. You don't have to do something dysfunctional to get it. ly, as you've figured out by now, nothing will get a person shut faster here than that kind of emotional manipulation. It may not be deliberate, but that is what it is.>> **I do need to learn how to ask for my needs to be met in a healthy way. Can the group help me with this? I learned this dysfunctional habit from my dysfunctional family patterns. I don't place blame on my parents and family any longer, but I know that this was the only way I could figure as a young child to get my needs met. **I lived in fear as a young child and teenager. My mother controlled

and punished us children through withdrawing her love and affection when we didn't do what she wanted, or if we did something wrong. **I grew believeing that love was conditional. I realize my Mom was doing the best she could with the "tools" and experiences she had as an adult. She got married to my Dad even before she was sixteen, so she was just a child herself trying to raise a family and had little chance to grow up herself. I don't need to go into all this. I'm just admitting that having a healthy emotional relationship with someone and learning how to get my needs met in a healthy mature way is tricky for me to try and do. I need someone to point out when I'm falling into this "emotional" manipulation trap. **I have to say that now that the drugs are down the toliet and out of my house. The ache in the pit of my stomach is gone. I can

actually breathe freely again. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for your honesty and "tough" love, and yes, you certainly can be more intimidating than the doctors. That's what makes your withdrawal and recovery site so productive and helpful. It must be a challenge to try and stay objective with each new case that comes to the group. **I guess I need to apply the "one day and a night" at a time recovery principle to make it through each day and night. I've gone almost a year without sleeping pills at night before last week and I can do it again. I have determined I have to force myself to think this way, because if I try to think about getting through more than one day or night at a time, I'm setting myself up to be overwhelmed and place myself in danger. <<Are you in therapy? I strongly recommend cognitive-behavioral therapy.>>

**No, I'm not in therapy. I have stopped, because the therapists that I always ended up seeing focused more on my problems and the past more than on the solutions. They also tried to talk me into staying on my psych meds. My last attempt to see a therapist was back in the fall 2005. I was turned down because I told them I needed to learn how to mainstream back into life and my family now that I was off so many of my psych drugs. They told me that while I was coming off drugs they couldn't see me and that they only way they could see me in the future was when I had a note from my psychiatrist stating that I had been off psychiatrict drugs for 6 months and had proven myself to be stable. So that was the end of that. Are cognitive-behavioral therapists different than the other therapists out there? What makes them different. They won't drug push and try to convince me I shouldn't come

off my psych drugs? Is anyone in the group going to a cognitive-behavioral therapist? How is it going? I would consider going to a Cog/Beh therapist. Especially with all the challenges that are coming up as I move more into being a mother, wife, and homemaker, and also coming off these drugs. <<I realize this email is very challenging. You can use it to run away or you can rise to the challenge, stay, and do the RIGHT, MATURE, and HEALTHY thing. It's your choice. We'd like you to stay. But I'd also like you to climb back out of that pit you're in and utilize what you've learned here. Your emotions are your enemy if you allow them to dictate your actions. You need to stop that now.>> **Oh yes it was hard to read what you had to say. At first I wanted to run away and take the easy way out. Well, maybe not easy way - more

like destructive way out, but after much thought - I read your letter than walked away in tears - but after a few hours and realizing I would never have come as far as I have with coming of my psych. drugs if it wasn't for this withdrawal and recovery group and all the knowledgeable, experienced, and supportive people here. You have been doing this along time and I don't take lightly your experience and knowledge that you give to help others. You obviously care enough for others to maintain such a "massive" task as keeping up with your recovery group and the time you spend reaching out to others. **I plan to re-read what wrote on sleep. I will work on relaxing at night when I can't sleep. I'll come up with a plan. Reading or doing my spiritual devotional reading and studying at 3:00am or so is certainly a possiblity. I will make a list of things I can do during the

"graveyard shift" of the night. I guess it won't be so bad. I can get things done that normally don't get done during the day. I do scrapbooking, I've been wanting to do more of this. I can always crosstitch or pick up crocheting or lay in bed and watch T.V. or a DVD. I'm going to come up with a list of things. Or I could just lay and rest even if I don't sleep, which is what I've done most times. I will survive. It's not the end of the world if I can't sleep. My cat has been keeping me company part of these past few nights which is unusally. Like I said I've not taken anything since Thursday of last week. I'm surprised that my sleep hasn't been as bad as I thought, so one "night" at a time I can get through. Right?! I know the final decision is up to you about whether I remain with the group or not and I would like to ask that you would please consider

allowing me to remain a part of this group. No more games or dishonesty. I will always try my best to not do the "emotional" escapades. I have to learn how to get my needs met in a healthy way, so if I go off into some emotional garbage please point it out to me. And if anyone else has read this e-mail you have permission to do the same and challenge me. I want to be humble and teachable. Hugs, > It means so much that you care about how I'm doing. > > I haven't taken any sleeping pills since the Trazadone experience last Thursday.> > I haven't thought about taken anymore sleeping pills. The Trazadone experience was pretty scarey and miserable for

me.> > But when you asked me if I had flushed the sleeping pills a strange feeling came over me. I would have no problem doing that with the Trazadone and the Ambien, in fact I will do that.> > How perceptive you are. What did you read in my letter that may have hinted to you that I might have difficulty giving these sleeping aids up? I had no clue about this being a tendency in me until I read your question and it got me to thinking.> > I have to be honest in saying that I felt a resistance about doing that with the Sonata. I hadn't thought or planned on taken these pills (or so I thought), until you asked me that question and then I realized there is a part of me that wants to hang on to this sleeping pill.> > This concerns me too. In fact it

frightens me that there is actually a part of me that wants to keep it around. I know this is all the more reason why I do need to get rid of it - all of it. > > I don't know why sleeplessness is such a fear and difficult issue for me to accept. I've not taken anything, like I said, and so far I'm surviving. I probably will never take it. So the Sonata needs to go to. I haven't taken any so why is the finality of "flushing it" so hard?> > This shouldn't be such a hard decision for me to make. Something really weriod is going on inside me. I can't explain it. I will get rid of the Trazadone and Ambien when I'm done with this e-mail. > > I just want to cry. Please help encourage me to have the strength to "flush" the Sonata. I know it's up to me and it's my

responsibility and I should do it for myself and my well-being.> > Please bear with me as I go through this thinking and decision making process. > > (Break - I have left for church, finish writing when I get back)> > I just got back from attending a women's group, who support each other through difficulties that we face in our daily lives. This was my first visit and I think I finally found a good support group I think will really help me. > > Several in the group have worked through coming off drugs and alcohol and were very encouraging to me. They have encouraged me to call them day or night. > > I shared with them my dilemma and they were very understanding and prayed for me to rely on God and His strength

to get me through and not the pills. > > This is so hard. I can't believe how hard it is to do this, but I'm done with the sleeping aids there in the toilet right now.> > Ugh, I have to be truthful. The Ambien and Trazadone are gone. I tried to flush the Sonata and I just can't. I don't know what else to say. I probably will never take the dam pills, but I can't get rid of them just yet. Why is that?> > I'm very confused,> > V.> > > > > As I search deep inside myself, I feel a weakness in me - a dependency. I guess I thinking I want to hang on to the Sonata in case of a emergenency or crisis when I might really

need it.> > I know, there is so situation or crisis that I face that warrents taken another Psychiatric drug of any kind. That is, I know that in my head, but emotionally I feel hooked now. > > Something got triggered in me. I don't know if it's emotional, psychological, or physical, but I'm starting to feel a drug addicts pull to hang on to it.> > One part of me says don't do it and get rid of all of these sleeping aids, and then another part of me that wants to hang on to the Sonata. I really want to be honest and what I'm sharing is so embarrassing to admit.> > I should know better after being with this group for quite some time now. >

[Guest guest]

Kim wrote: You said: <<You must stop dwelling on how hard it is and how bad you feel. Youmust instead focus on how far you've come. Go back and read yourposts from a few weeks ago, when you first started posting again.>> **I think my senses are coming back to me now. I spent alot of time thinking and re-thinking what said and finally starting to reconnect with myself way back a few weeks ago. I was managing fine without those darn sleeping pills. I just needed to learn what to do with that early morning sleeplessness. I'm certainly not going to die from lack of sleep. God and naps can help me with the discomfort. My kids

will just have to understand there will be times when I can be with them and times when Mommy is not feeling well and that later I can spend special time with them. <<They sound like a different person. You were strong, focused, and grateful for the progress you had made. Remember what that personfelt like? It was YOU.>>**I think that my relapse just open a door for "unhealthy past thinking" to start to surface. I was weakened by the stupid drugs and I fell right into this self-pity trap. **I know better than that now. My health and recovery is so important to me, and to the memory of my deceased father whose memory I use to help strengthen me to contiune on this road of withdrawal and recovery. I have given up the sleeping pills, flushed them, their gone. Although doing it for my family, kids, and myself is important; I also do this recovery for

the love and sake of my father, whom I love and miss very much. **God is my strength as well. has shared alot of creative ideas to help me through the sleeplessness, and I'm going to brainstorm other things I can try during my times of sleeplessness. I just need to re-frame the situation and see it as more of a friend than a foe I have to fight every night. <<So make a decision to stop this nonsense and get back on track. Youowe it to yourself and your family.>> Thank you for that comment. You're so right. It is nonsense. Gosh, I can't believe I almost lost everything last week due to my weakness and selfishness. I hope I havent dug my hole so deep that I can't remain with the group. I've come so far, like you said, thanks for that constant reminder. I've decided not to give that up

and place my recovery in jeparody (sp.). You, , and everyone is so helpful, even when it hurts. That's what makes this group so special. Hugs, V.

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

First, let me tell you that I'm really happy for you. Your desire

to walk your true path is obvious and I know you can do it.

I also wanted to comment on the sleep issue. had some great

ideas and her explanation of how to re-frame it was, I'm sure,

invaluable to many people.

I think we need to look at everything that contributes to poor or

no sleep. The answer isn't always obvious. For example, if you are

doing stimulating things prior to going to bed, you won't be able to

sleep (see article in files). Also, food and drink need to be

considered.

It is also normal to have difficulty sleeping after a drug decrease.

On to your response to me.

My new comments are in brackets. [ ]

I said:

<< I have to tell you, this is ridiculous. This forum is not going to

become a place where people think it is acceptable to be " unable " to

flush a drug that is addictive and harmful. That's the kind of

behavior, attitude, and decision-making that got you taking

psychotropic drugs in the first place.>>

You said:

***I did ask you to be truthful, honest, and tough when you see

problem areas that I need to be made aware of and you have done this

with your response. It hurts, but I realize it is the truth.

I've spent alot of time thinking about what you have shared. I

don't want to get stuck in this trap with psych drugs again. Ten

years of my life have been " stolen " from me because I was on so many

drugs that over time I wasn't real living life anymore. I was

hibernating from my family and destructive to my husband and kids.

I was not the Mom I needed to be for my kids (I ran from them) nor the

" present " wife I needed to be for my husband and put him through hell

during my drugged up years.

I was being selfish and harmful to my family. I'm realizing this

and need to own up to my destructive behavior.

I needed to be reminded how destructive and poisonous these drugs

really are. So insidous they can be. I hate the fact that I ever

allowed these sleeping pills into my home. I'm angry at myself. >>

[ Up until this last sentence you were doing okay. You cannot be

angry at yourself. It keeps you down. it wears you out. Target your

anger toward the drugs and those who create, market, and prescribe

them. Treat yourself as you would treat someone else who had gotten

caught in this trap. Don't get me wrong. I'm not recommending being a

victim. One can be duped without taking on the role of a victim.

Victims are people who view themselves as powerless. You're not. But

in order to be fully fortified for this battle, you need to care for

and nurture yourself as you intellectually know a parent nurtures a

child. When you are able to do this for yourself, you will be able to

be the parent you want to be for your children.]

I said:

<<You are immersed in your own drama made worse from taking the drugs

last week. You've given your emotions all the power to make

decisions for you. Your intellect knows you need to get rid of these

drugs but you have fallen into the pit again of letting your emotions

dictate your actions.>>

You said:

<<**Even though it hurts so badly to hear these words, you again are

right. You don't know how sorry I am, really, for being so careless

and irresponsibile. What immediately comes to mind is how I also

acted this way a few years back when I attempted sucide (and developed

and addiction for self-injury) and again allowed my emotions to be in

charge, thinking only of myself.

**How selfish I was not to consider the impact my actions would have

on my kids and family for taking this destructive path. How selfish of

me to put my husband through such hell, by allowing my emotions to be

in charge. >>

[ The selfishness you cite was not deliberate. It is a lack of

insight and tools that led to this. That can be corrected.]

I said:

<< Emotions cannot dictate actions. Emotions have the intelligence of

a two year old. That's why you were given an intellect -- to override

your emotions and act in your own best interests.>>

You said:

<<**Again you are right. God gave me an intellect in order to make

the mature and right decisions. I'm not a child any longer. I'm 42

yrs old and it is time that I grow up and use my head and not

emotions. I'll never become a healthy, mature mother for my kids if I

don't start letting my mind and inner wisdom be in control of my

emotions and actions. >>

[Good insight!]

I said:

<<I also think this is a dysfunctional way of getting some of your

needs met. Well, that's going to stop. I will not let this group

become an arena for emotional acting out, attention-seeking, and other

inappropriate ways of getting needs met.>>

You said:

<<**I wasn't aware of doing this at the time, but I can now see what

you have said makes so much sense. I need to become more and more

aware of how I do this. Not just in this group, but also in my

relationship with my husband and even my kids.

**I can see times when I unfortunately have used my kids to meet my

emotional needs and this is so wrong. It's called emotional abuse

within the family. I definitly need to learn how to stop doing this.

**I'm so desparate to end this destructive behavior in me. I do need

expert advice and help to stop it. >>

[We're here for you with this. What you are talking about is not

that unusual. There are many people who would benefit from learning

different ways of viewing, processing, and acting (note I did not say

" reacting " ). There has been a need for a long time on this list for

this type of group/service. I've thought about it for a long time now

and just haven't gotten around to doing anything about it. See the end

of this email; you have become a catalyst for something new and much

needed.]

I said:

<<Either flush the pills or don't. If you don't, your goal is not

what you state it to be and you are being emotionally dishonest with

the group and perhaps are not really ready for a group like this.>>

You said:

**After much turmoil mentally, as you would expect it wasn't easy, but

I finally flushed them. I hate the fact that these drugs can be so

insidous and can begin to create within me this feeling of dependency

and loss that I no longer have them.

**These drugs are destructive not just physically, but emotionally. I

know I've created a basis that might cause you to not trust me, but I

really have flushed them. Please believe me. I don't want to allow

another drug to enter my body that would damage my brain and body.

[i have no reason to doubt you. At this point, if I did, I would

trust that you were on the road you had to be on right now. If you

were not being honest, the brunt the fallout from this would be on

you. I would feel very little of it.

Though I speak passionately and want the best for everyone here, I

learned a long time ago that people will seek what they need.

Sometimes this comes in the form of very difficult lessons. So, I

don't become emotionally invested in what I've presented to them. I

know that sometimes people have to suffer a lot more in order to come

to the conclusion that they don't have to suffer that much. I know

that I am nothing more than a gardener of ideas. Once I've planted

these they're there for a person's lifetime. Some people may utilize

them now while some may utilize them 10 years from now. In any case,

I know I've done my job regardless of the outcome.]

You said:

<<**I've worked hard this past year to come off so many drugs. I

realize I don't want to allow any more " crappy posionous " drugs into

my body to create more harm and damage inside my body. I have enough

on my platter when it comes to coming off the Geodon, and Klonopin. I

don't need to complicate the situation any further. >>

[Yes, you've worked very hard to do this, and you're right,

anything else only causes more complications and harm.]

I said:

<<To fill your needs, state your needs and then ask for help

generating ideas of how to get your needs met. You don't need to do

this for people to care. If you need more support at any given time -

ask for it. You don't have to do something dysfunctional to get it.

ly, as you've figured out by now, nothing will get a person shut

faster here than that kind of emotional manipulation. It may not be

deliberate, but that is what it is.>>

You said:

<<**I do need to learn how to ask for my needs to be met in a healthy

way. Can the group help me with this? I learned this dysfunctional

habit from my dysfunctional family patterns. I don't place blame on

my parents and family any longer, but I know that this was the only

way I could figure as a young child to get my needs met. >>

[Good! It's necessary and normal to go through a period of blaming

and anger (we do this because we feel so helpless; hence we become

frustrated and angry). At some point we have to come to the

conclusion that only we can correct it. This is very empowering and

uplifting. This way of thinking often happens with people after they

become parents themselves.]

You said:

<<**I lived in fear as a young child and teenager. My mother

controlled and punished us children through withdrawing her love and

affection when we didn't do what she wanted, or if we did something

wrong.

**I grew believeing that love was conditional. I realize my Mom was

doing the best she could with the " tools " and experiences she had as

an adult. She got married to my Dad even before she was sixteen, so

she was just a child herself trying to raise a family and had little

chance to grow up herself. I don't need to go into all this. I'm

just admitting that having a healthy emotional relationship with

someone and learning how to get my needs met in a healthy mature way

is tricky for me to try and do. I need someone to point out when I'm

falling into this " emotional " manipulation trap. >>

[You utilize the tools you have. When you have more tools, you'll

utilize those. I know this because I can feel your desire and

sincerity. Some people can be given tools but are afraid to take the

step and incorporate them for fear of what they will lose. There is

most always secondary gain in dysfunctional behavior. Spouses and

partners can become emotional and even physical caretakers. This

feels good to people who did not have mature parents who took care of

them and made them feel safe. ]

[ Until people realize that now, as adults, only they can truly make

themselves feel safe and whole, they will continue to seek someone to

provide that for them. This is an example of secondary gain. Those

who are afraid to take what is perceived as a risk ( everything new

feels very risky; we are creatures of habit), and feel like they might

lose something they believe they need (not understanding or trusting

that the trade-off brings them much more), will emotionally resist and

allow those emotions to rule.]

[ When people make changes some spouses and partners feel threatened

because they have come to identify themselves in the role as emotional

caretaker. These people are usually those who also grew up in a

dysfunctional home and for the first time in their lives they feel in

control of their lives. Being in control of someone else makes them

feel this way. The person making the changes may see how these

changes have has a seemingly negative impact on the spouse/partner.

The loving way to address this is to explain that you are getting

healthier and these changes, though good, throw off the equilibrium of

the relationship. Asking the spouse/partner to become a partner in

this endeavor usually helps. In cases where the spouse/partner is

quite dysfunctional, s/he will increase her/his efforts to control

things and occasionally even resort to threats of leaving. This is an

example where secondary gain was gotten by the spouse/partner.]

[ In many cases, here have become what is known as " the identified

patient " in the family (extended family, too). Family members can

feel very threatened when the " identified patient " begins acting not

so much like a sick person anymore. We can talk more about this at

some point.]

You said:

<<**I have to say that now that the drugs are down the toliet and out

of my house. The ache in the pit of my stomach is gone. I can

actually breathe freely again. Thank you from the bottom of my heart

for your honesty and " tough " love, and yes, you certainly can be more

intimidating than the doctors. That's what makes your withdrawal and

recovery site so productive and helpful. It must be a challenge to

try and stay objective with each new case that comes to the group.

**I guess I need to apply the " one day and a night " at a time recovery

principle to make it through each day and night. I've gone almost a

year without sleeping pills at night before last week and I can do it

again. I have determined I have to force myself to think this way,

because if I try to think about getting through more than one day or

night at a time, I'm setting myself up to be overwhelmed and place

myself in danger. >>

[Again, good insight!]

I said:

<<Are you in therapy? I strongly recommend cognitive-behavioral therapy.>>

You said:

<<**No, I'm not in therapy. I have stopped, because the therapists

that I always ended up seeing focused more on my problems and the past

more than on the solutions. They also tried to talk me into staying

on my psych meds. My last attempt to see a therapist was back in the

fall 2005. I was turned down because I told them I needed to learn

how to mainstream back into life and my family now that I was off so

many of my psych drugs. They told me that while I was coming off

drugs they couldn't see me and that they only way they could see me in

the future was when I had a note from my psychiatrist stating that I

had been off psychiatrict drugs for 6 months and had proven myself to

be stable. So that was the end of that. >>

[ I'm not surprised but I am disappointed and angered. Sadly,

today, many therapists take these drugs themselves which makes them

slaves to the evil energy carried by the drugs.]

You said:

<<Are cognitive-behavioral therapists different than the other

therapists out there? What makes them different. >>

[Yes, most are -- or at least have been thus far. What makes them

different is that they don't want to go back to your past; they want

to work with where you are right now and help you become more

functional and emotionally healthy by helping you change thought and

behavioral patterns. They usually emphasize the ability of people to

make changes in their lives without having to understand why the

change occurs. This requires a lot of active work on the part of the

client but is far superior to any other form of counseling. See my

final note at the end of this email.]

You said:

<<They won't drug push and try to convince me I shouldn't come off my

psych drugs? Is anyone in the group going to a cognitive-behavioral

therapist? How is it going? I would consider going to a Cog/Beh

therapist. Especially with all the challenges that are coming up as I

move more into being a mother, wife, and homemaker, and also coming

off these drugs. >>

[ I can't answer whether they push drugs. Each individual would

have to asked about that. I don't know if anyone has done any CBT

although I think our moderators has and I know Kim did.

I said:

<<I realize this email is very challenging. You can use it to run

away or you can rise to the challenge, stay, and do the RIGHT, MATURE,

and HEALTHY thing. It's your choice. We'd like you to stay. But I'd

also like you to climb back out of that pit you're in and utilize what

you've learned here. Your emotions are your enemy if you allow them

to dictate your actions. You need to stop that now.>>

You said:

<<**Oh yes it was hard to read what you had to say. At first I wanted

to run away and take the easy way out. Well, maybe not easy way -

more like destructive way out, but after much thought - I read your

letter than walked away in tears - but after a few hours and realizing

I would never have come as far as I have with coming of my psych.

drugs if it wasn't for this withdrawal and recovery group and all the

knowledgeable, experienced, and supportive people here.

You have been doing this along time and I don't take lightly your

experience and knowledge that you give to help others. You obviously

care enough for others to maintain such a " massive " task as keeping up

with your recovery group and the time you spend reaching out to

others.

**I plan to re-read what wrote on sleep. I will work on

relaxing at night when I can't sleep. I'll come up with a plan.

Reading or doing my spiritual devotional reading and studying at

3:00am or so is certainly a possiblity. I will make a list of things

I can do during the " graveyard shift " of the night. I guess it won't

be so bad. I can get things done that normally don't get done during

the day. I do scrapbooking, I've been wanting to do more of this. I

can always crosstitch or pick up crocheting or lay in bed and watch

T.V. or a DVD. I'm going to come up with a list of things. Or I

could just lay and rest even if I don't sleep, which is what I've done

most times. I will survive. It's not the end of the world if I can't

sleep. My cat has been keeping me company part of these past few

nights which is unusally. Like I said I've not taken anything since

Thursday of last week. I'm surprised that my sleep hasn't been as bad

as I thought, so one " night " at a time I can get through. Right?! >>

[ I'm impressed. You're going to be just fine, . The fact

that you want it so much that you recognize the opportunity in this

tells me that you are going to shine very brightly some day soon.]

You said:

<<I know the final decision is up to you about whether I remain with

the group or not and I would like to ask that you would please

consider allowing me to remain a part of this group. No more games or

dishonesty. I will always try my best to not do the " emotional "

escapades. I have to learn how to get my needs met in a healthy way,

so if I go off into some emotional garbage please point it out to me.

And if anyone else has read this e-mail you have permission to do the

same and challenge me. I want to be humble and teachable. >>

[Of course you can stay. I wouldn't have sent you away anyway

unless I thought that served you best at this time. I would have just

moderated your posts and turned those back to you that were not

serving the greater good.]

In closing, I want to thank you for being a strong enough catalyst

for me to do something I've been wanting to do for over two years.

I've repeatedly seen the need in this group for this type of help.

But this is best done in a chat-type forum. We have a chat room right

on our group site. I'm going to announce this to the group, gauge the

interest, get an idea when such a group could meet that would be best

for all interested, and then proceed with it. Thank you for lighting

a fire under me on this. I've known for a long time that it is

crucial for some people to have a group like this in order to remain

drug-free.

--

Regards,

" Life is not an exact

science, it is an art. "

-- --

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I should probably write this in the morning as I am extremely tired,

so forgive me if it doesn't read well!!

I wanted to thankyou, over the last few days I have been sitting

here reading your emails, it many ways they were mine about 18

months ago. I remember saying to me " I love you,but you

are burning us out " , will probably remember to. I was so

emotional, I reacted to everything emotionally. Anyway, I want to

thankyou because by reading your emails I can see that I have made

progress. I am not perfect, I never will be, but I am learning!

wrote to you :

" There are many people who would benefit from learning

different ways of viewing, processing, and acting (note I did not say

" reacting " ). There has been a need for a long time on this list

for

this type of group/service. I've thought about it for a long time

now

and just haven't gotten around to doing anything about it. See the

end

of this email; you have become a catalyst for something new and much

needed.]

This is me! I know I still need to learn ways, many ways of viewing,

processing and acting. I need to deal with my Dad's death, I need

to deal with my anger over the drugs and many other things. I am

learning to view things differently, but its a slow process for me.

Gee, I never dealt with things, my way of dealing with things was to

pound harder up a swimming pool.

Regarding the CBT, I did see a guy but for only a few appointments,

he was not a good CBT in my opinion. He's idea of dealing with my

fear of low blood sugar , was to tell me it was all in my head and

to just not eat and be even more hypo. When my endocrinologist wrote

to him and said I had reactive hypoglycaemia, the CBT wrote to me

and said he couldnt help. I do believe in CBT, but you need to suss

them out first! Don't go near the ones that want to delve into your

past or numb you with drugs.

I am seeing a Human Givens therapist who works in much the same way

as a CBT, I feel more comfortable with Human Givens as none of them

use drugs.

I have a long way to go , I still find food hard. But I am

learning.

Hope this makes sense!

With Love to you

[Guest guest]

, I am also having Human Givens therapy. I'm finding it

really good. It helps me make sense of my behaviour and reactions,

etc, whereas the " system " has put it down to pathology without

meaning.

Diane

>

> Hi ,

>

> I should probably write this in the morning as I am extremely

tired,

> so forgive me if it doesn't read well!!

>

> I wanted to thankyou, over the last few days I have been sitting

> here reading your emails, it many ways they were mine about 18

> months ago. I remember saying to me " I love you,but you

> are burning us out " , will probably remember to. I was so

> emotional, I reacted to everything emotionally. Anyway, I want to

> thankyou because by reading your emails I can see that I have made

> progress. I am not perfect, I never will be, but I am learning!

>

> wrote to you :

> " There are many people who would benefit from learning

> different ways of viewing, processing, and acting (note I did not

say

> " reacting " ). There has been a need for a long time on this list

> for

> this type of group/service. I've thought about it for a long time

> now

> and just haven't gotten around to doing anything about it. See the

> end

> of this email; you have become a catalyst for something new and

much

> needed.]

>

> This is me! I know I still need to learn ways, many ways of

viewing,

> processing and acting. I need to deal with my Dad's death, I need

> to deal with my anger over the drugs and many other things. I am

> learning to view things differently, but its a slow process for

me.

> Gee, I never dealt with things, my way of dealing with things was

to

> pound harder up a swimming pool.

>

> Regarding the CBT, I did see a guy but for only a few

appointments,

> he was not a good CBT in my opinion. He's idea of dealing with my

> fear of low blood sugar , was to tell me it was all in my head and

> to just not eat and be even more hypo. When my endocrinologist

wrote

> to him and said I had reactive hypoglycaemia, the CBT wrote to me

> and said he couldnt help. I do believe in CBT, but you need to

suss

> them out first! Don't go near the ones that want to delve into

your

> past or numb you with drugs.

>

> I am seeing a Human Givens therapist who works in much the same

way

> as a CBT, I feel more comfortable with Human Givens as none of

them

> use drugs.

>

> I have a long way to go , I still find food hard. But I am

> learning.

>

> Hope this makes sense!

>

> With Love to you

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Diane,

Are you in the UK?

How long have you been having Human Givens therapy? I so wish it was

available on the NHS then more people could benefit.

I'm so glad it is helping you.

Love