Re: hoping for some advice

[Guest guest]

Hi Marie, If you felt stable at 1.25 mg of Zyprexa, go back to that and stay at that dose until you feel stable again. I went up and down with Zyprexa several times b/c of going too fast. Generally when I went too fast and had to back up, I had to stay at the backup dose for 3-4 weeks. Everyone is different. You will know when you feel stable again. So I learned the hard way how important it is to go slow. I was able to taper to 1/4 pill by cutting. Then I had to dissolve the 1/4 pills in club soda and it took 12 reductions to get down to zero. The whole process took about 9 months from start to finish.

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[Guest guest]

Dear Marie,

You said:

<< I posted for the first time yesterday morning, giving the history

of how I wound up on celexa and zyprexa last June.

From reading posts here, I realize now I should not have done two

simultaneous tapers. In the last few days I am having a horrible time

with anxiety, to the point I can hardly function right now. I am

fortunate I am not working at present, because I would be unable to

continue.

Since my second zyprexa taper was from 2.5 mg and I was okay until I

reached about 1.25 mg, I am wondering about trying over again to

stabilize at 1.25 mg and going much more slowly this time, using the

water taper described here.

I was assured that I would be getting some input from , the

list owner. I do hope that will be the case.>>

** Welcome to the list. At the point that you posted this it had

been less than 24 hours since your initial email. Though not ideal,

it is often 2-3 days before I can get to each person (there are

almost 700 people in the group).

When people join the list they receive a number of documents.

Amongst these is a document that speaks of how to address anxiety.

This is also in the files in case people delete it before reading it

thoroughly.

I believe also indicated that going off an antipsychotic is

a long journey, and as you've already noted, you took that journey

too quickly. I believe I saw where recommended returning to

the last dose at which you were stable. This is the standard way to

deal with what you are experiencing.

When reducing antipsychotics one has to make slow reductions -- 5%

at most -- and wait a significantamount of time in between

reductions. It is not uncommon for it to take weeks for a person to

feel the reduction.

Equally as important as small, slow reductions is a healthy diet

and a good supplement protocol. There are documents in our files

about this, too.

When someone is new, most of the questions they have are answered

in the documents they get upon joining and in our files. I do this

in order to not be repeating the very same information 20+ times a

week (the average # of new members we get each week).

I don't see anything in your email about your diet or supplements

you may be taking. I also don't see any questions that are not

answered by the documents one gets whil joining except possibly the

question answered by (to increase the Zyprexa).

If you have questions stemming from the articles in the files or

the articles you received upon joining, I would be glad to answer

them.

You'll feel much better if you increase the Zyprexa and then do a

small 2% reduction AFTER you've become stabilized again on the

increased dose.

Again, welcome to the group.

Regards,

[Guest guest]

Catherin, please accept apologies for my impatience. When feeling lousy, minutes

can

seem like eternity. I am going to mull over whether to try to go back on

zyprexa. I am a bit

better this afternoon. And I do understand that you have many posts to read

through. and

I have looked at many of the files. :-)

As for diet, I am a vegetarian and generally eat pretty well, but have had lots

of problems

eating lately, don't really want to, am hungry but food averse at the same time.

I force down oatmeal or equivalent in the morning, slice of whole wheat bread

and almond

butter at lunch with some orange juice. A typical dinner, but not one I have

eaten lately,

would naturally involve veggies, grains, and almost always a salad. I do keep

organic

walnuts and pumpkins seeds around, as well as dried cranberries and nibble on

those to

help keep the blood sugar up. When feeling well, I am a chocoholic.

I do take supplements:

B complex with vitamin C

B12 under the tongue (since vegetarian)

folic acid

Zn, chelated - 50 mg

Ca citrate - 500 mg in mid-afternoon

Mg citrate - 400 mg around 9 pm

iron - maybe every third day

kelp - one tablet most days

fish oil most days - 750 to 1000 mg (Spectrum brand which has no mercury, PCBs

or lead)

Normally, as a vegetarian, I would not take the last item, but have relaxed my

standards

while I am going through this, with thanks to the fish, because I read that flax

seed oil

isn't quite as effective. I will switch to that if/when I get better.

I also use natural progesterone cream at bedtime for two weeks out of every four

(I am 51

yrs old, and not quite down with periods but very irregular). It too is supposed

to help with

anxiety and sleep.

Finally, I walk and walk to deal with this, and until recently, it has helped

quite a bit most

days. I may do as much as 8 miles on bad days, more typically 4. I am certainly

in good

shape cardiovascular wise, even if not emotionally.

Last night, I was feeling loaded with anxiety at 11:30 pm, so my husband and I

went for a

rapid 3 mile walk. This one helped a little. I had a cup of chamomile tea when I

got home

and actually felt relatively calm until around 4 am. I think I even slept around

3 hours.

So I am going to see how the next couple of days go. If I don't absolutely have

to

backtrack, I would prefer not to, but I will if there are no periods of relief

at all.

Thanks for the various welcomes.

Marie

[Guest guest]

Hi Marie,

Can I ask why you are vegetarian, is it moral reasons or do you just

not like fish and meat?

I was a vegetarian for 20 years, it was one of the main things

asked me to change and she was right.

Ditch the chocolate! How about trying almonds instead?

Best Wishes

[Guest guest]

>

> Hi Marie,

>

> Can I ask why you are vegetarian, is it moral reasons or do you just

> not like fish and meat?

I am a veg for both ethical and ecological reasons. I 've been one for about 20

years. It is not

something I can change. Also, after 20 years, I can't stomach fish and meat

anymore. I do eat

locally produced eggs and drink locally produced milk from pastured cows.

Yoghurt also. But

no flesh of any kind. I do not think meat eating is immoral, I just don't want

to do it because,

unlike true carnivores, I don't have to to survive.

BTW, I live in Ithaca, NY, hometown of Dr. Breggin. He still practices

here.

Marie

[Guest guest]

>

> I am a veg for both ethical and ecological reasons. I 've been one

for about 20 years. It is not

> something I can change. Also, after 20 years, I can't stomach fish

and meat anymore. I do eat

> locally produced eggs and drink locally produced milk from

pastured cows. Yoghurt also. But

> no flesh of any kind. I do not think meat eating is immoral, I

just don't want to do it because,

> unlike true carnivores, I don't have to to survive.

>

> BTW, I live in Ithaca, NY, hometown of Dr. Breggin. He still

practices here.

>

> Marie

>

Hi Marie,

Did you read s response to Djaren about vegetarianism?

Believe me I think I must have been one of the most stubborn people

to convert over......poor . I to said I can't eat flesh,

I'll vomit.

I did change, I was able to because I have so much trust in

, I truly believe being a veggie helped to contribute to my

anxiety and breakdown after a knee op. My knee op should have

healed in a few months, it took a few years. I believe if I had

eaten animal protein, I may have never been given the drugs and

maybe I would still be swimming.

It is your decision Marie, totally, and I truly understand why you

feel the way you do.

Just spare a few moments thoughts to what has already said

to Djaren.

Hun, I live in the UK so I don't understand who Dr Breggin is?

Care to enlighten me please?

Take Care of yourself.

Love

[Guest guest]

Marie,

I ended up in the hospital freaking out when I went off Zyprexa too

fast. YOu said you cut from 2.5 to 1.25. Judging from experience and

from voluminous amounts of posts here pertaining to the same issue, you

probably went too fast. I wouldn't presume to give you advice on what

exactly to take, but I will share that going too fast is the most

common mistake and one I suffered from immensely. There are a tons of

posts here and if you haven't gotten a reply then repost it after a few

days. In the meantime, are you doing anything aside from going off the

drug to help your health. I know my only improvement came with going

off the drugs in conjunction with getting on a good protocol, exercise,

and juicing. But that is just me. God bless,

Casey

[Guest guest]

Casey

I am completely off the Z for almost three weeks now, five if I don't count the

two I took

about two weeks ago when I was in bad shape, thinking I should retaper more

slowly.

I took three months to go from 2.5mg to 0. I tapered the anti-depressant celexa

simultaneously, 20 mg to 0. I was going by Dr. Breggin's advice to cut 10% at a

time. It

was an inexact business because I was cutting rather small pills with a razor

blade. Wish I

had known about water tapers.

What exactly did you experience tht drove you to the hospital? What did they do

for you

there? Did you remain off or go back and retaper?

Today I am having an awful lot of muscle aches. Don't know if that is just

anxiety or if it is

withdrawal.

Fortunately , Z , unlike the anti-depressants, is not that widely prescribed -

fewer victims

- but it also means that there are far fewer people with experience to share.

I do have something of a protocol: take a variety of supplements, walk at least

4 miles

every day, scrupulously avoid stimuli and stressors wherever possible. I have

even taken to

reading classic books for adolescents because they are easier on the nervous

system. I

read the whole Little House on the Prairie series, among others.

Marie

[Guest guest]

<< But no flesh of any kind. I do not think meat eating is immoral, I

just don't want to do it because,

unlike true carnivores, I don't have to to survive.>>

I think it depends on what level of survival you're seeking. If you

JUST want to survive, then you don't need it, you're right.

If you want to RECOVER from the damage done by these drugs, you may

well have to eat a certain amount of animal protein. Protein is

necessary for healing. Your body has been deeply challenged, and it

needs everything it can get in order to heal.

Regards,

Kim

co-moderator

--

Visit my art blog at http://kimdenise.blogspot.com/.

" Thanks to my work everything's going well " --Claude Monet

[Guest guest]

dear marie,

this might sound like a funny suggestion, but if one of the reasons

you do not eat meat is for ethical reasons, you might want to

consider kosher meat and poultry because when meat and poultry is

kosher, it means that the animal was killed in the most humane way,

the animal does not suffer at all. it dies a painless death. with

non kosher meat and poultry, i think there is a bit of suffering for

the animal before it dies. i " think " what i am telling you is

correct but if you are interested, i can ask my husband because he

will know for sure. i like you am a big animal sympathizer and it is

hard for me to eat fish since when fish are killed, it always seems

to be a painful death as they die of lack of oxygen. but i eat it

because my brain has been very damaged by a cold turkey withdrawal

so i have no choice but to put my recovery first. i like people like

you because it shows you have a kind heart. ig yout stomach can not

take flesh, you could always taper slowly onto it. :-)

love,

ct

> >

> > Hi Marie,

> >

> > Can I ask why you are vegetarian, is it moral reasons or do you

just

> > not like fish and meat?

>

>

> I am a veg for both ethical and ecological reasons. I 've been one

for about 20 years. It is not

> something I can change. Also, after 20 years, I can't stomach fish

and meat anymore. I do eat

> locally produced eggs and drink locally produced milk from

pastured cows. Yoghurt also. But

> no flesh of any kind. I do not think meat eating is immoral, I

just don't want to do it because,

> unlike true carnivores, I don't have to to survive.

>

> BTW, I live in Ithaca, NY, hometown of Dr. Breggin. He still

practices here.

>

> Marie

>