Guest guest Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 , You raise an interesting issue that has been talked about in legal circles. In many cases of mold growth in walls due to a transient water infiltration event, had the tyvek not been there, like in older homes, a mold problem would not have occurred. In such cases, what really was the mode of failure? The water leak or the inability of the wall to dry out - or tolerate a little water (as a wall should be able to do)? This question was posed in the SE US EFIS cases. I would have your friend ask water exterior water protection layer is used? Did they go back to tar paper? Do they use something else? Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 Yes. They had a big problem with some homes in North Carolina. THANKS BRUCE A. HATCHERCEOCHIEF INVESTIGATOR MOLD ID SERVICES, INC. QUALIFIED MOLD EVALUATIONS, INVESTIGATIONS, INSPECTIONS AND TESTING DIS-10 CertificationDIS-10 DistributorAIHA Membership1205 CASTLEMOOR COURTRALEIGH NC, 27606 www.MoldIDServices.com SERVING NC, SC, TN AND VA SOUTH CAROLINA OFFICE 24 HOUR LAB RESULTS Tyvek on homes I have a friend who was recently looking at buying a Toll Bros. home in the Philly area. He asked if Tyvek wrap came standard. He was told that "they [toll bros.] no longer do tyvek as it is starting to show up as creating a mold issue which outweighs the benefit of draft prevention". Has anyone heard of this? WhitesellMMTS Environmental Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 , Sorry I'm not going to directly answer your question, but here is a good list of green building and building science resources so that your friend can do some homework to be an educated consumer. He could also check out HADD (Homeowners Against Deficient Dwellings) and see if there have been many complaints against Toll Bros. - http://www.hadd.com/ Hope it helps! The NAHB has “green building guidelines” which you can download for free from their site: http://www.nahb.org/publication_details.aspx?publicationID=1994 & sectionID=155 The American Lung Assoc. Health House Program also has great builder guidelines: http://www.healthhouse.org/build/04HHBuilderGuidelines.pdf He should also do some research on some of the green and building science sites such as: http://www.buildingscience.com/ http://www.wbdg.org/ http://www.eeba.org/ http://www.cwc.ca/design/building_science/ http://www.buildingenvelopes.org/ http://www.ashrae.org/ http://www.nbec.net/ http://www.nrdc.org/buildinggreen/ http://www.usgbc.org Stacey Champion Owner/Consultant Champion Indoor Environmental Services PO Box 3332 Cottonwood, AZ 86326 Tel. Fax sc@... " Dedicated to the mission of assisting in the creation of healthy indoor environments! " Tyvek on homes I have a friend who was recently looking at buying a Toll Bros. home in the Philly area. He asked if Tyvek wrap came standard. He was told that " they [toll bros.] no longer do tyvek as it is starting to show up as creating a mold issue which outweighs the benefit of draft prevention " . Has anyone heard of this? Whitesell MMTS Environmental FAIR USE NOTICE: This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 Why sorry? Tyvek on homes I have a friend who was recently looking at buying a Toll Bros. home in the Philly area. He asked if Tyvek wrap came standard. He was told that " they [toll bros.] no longer do tyvek as it is starting to show up as creating a mold issue which outweighs the benefit of draft prevention " . Has anyone heard of this? Whitesell MMTS Environmental FAIR USE NOTICE: This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 Yes Bob - good point. One must understand that somehow, someway, water is GOING to get into the wall cavity, so it MUST be given a way to get out i.e. capillary breaks, building for the proper climate, etc. S.C. Re: Tyvek on homes , You raise an interesting issue that has been talked about in legal circles. In many cases of mold growth in walls due to a transient water infiltration event, had the tyvek not been there, like in older homes, a mold problem would not have occurred. In such cases, what really was the mode of failure? The water leak or the inability of the wall to dry out - or tolerate a little water (as a wall should be able to do)? This question was posed in the SE US EFIS cases. I would have your friend ask water exterior water protection layer is used? Did they go back to tar paper? Do they use something else? Bob FAIR USE NOTICE: This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 I sometimes forget that intonation, inflection, and sometimes intention are not conveyed perfectly in email. The following would be a better wording: No need to be sorry, your response contained excellent information. Tyvek on homes I have a friend who was recently looking at buying a Toll Bros. home in the Philly area. He asked if Tyvek wrap came standard. He was told that " they [toll bros.] no longer do tyvek as it is starting to show up as creating a mold issue which outweighs the benefit of draft prevention " . Has anyone heard of this? Whitesell MMTS Environmental FAIR USE NOTICE: This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 – Why, thank you! LOL! -S.C. From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of O. Whitesell Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2006 11:12 AM To: iequality Subject: RE: Tyvek on homes I sometimes forget that intonation, inflection, and sometimes intention are not conveyed perfectly in email. The following would be a better wording: No need to be sorry, your response contained excellent information. Tyvek on homes I have a friend who was recently looking at buying a Toll Bros. home in the Philly area. He asked if Tyvek wrap came standard. He was told that " they [toll bros.] no longer do tyvek as it is starting to show up as creating a mold issue which outweighs the benefit of draft prevention " . Has anyone heard of this? Whitesell MMTS Environmental FAIR USE NOTICE: This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 I suspect that the housewrap is simply getting a bad " rap " when the blame should really fall on poor construction technique. I was stunned many years ago to learn that local building codes don't require any type of moisture barrier as protection for OSB sheathing. This after observing many homes being built with the masonry exterior in direct contact with the OSB. Be nice to hear from Jim White, Terry Brennan, and/or Joe Lstiburek on this subject... Curtis Redington, RS Environmental Quality Specialist City of Wichita Dept. of Environmental Health Wichita Kansas Re: Tyvek on homes , You raise an interesting issue that has been talked about in legal circles. In many cases of mold growth in walls due to a transient water infiltration event, had the tyvek not been there, like in older homes, a mold problem would not have occurred. In such cases, what really was the mode of failure? The water leak or the inability of the wall to dry out - or tolerate a little water (as a wall should be able to do)? This question was posed in the SE US EFIS cases. I would have your friend ask water exterior water protection layer is used? Did they go back to tar paper? Do they use something else? Bob FAIR USE NOTICE: This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2006 Report Share Posted February 21, 2006 I have not heard of problems with Tyvek. There are builders that do not use a polyolefin (tyvek) wrap or a weather barier - which is bad for several reasons. It should not create a problem if properly installed as the perm ratings are in the range of 35-40 which allows a lot of water vapor to move through but stops air and droplet water. If you have enry behind the wrap (due to bad design or instalation) then it can trap moisture inside the wall cavity. Tony Tyvek on homes > >I have a friend who was recently looking at buying a Toll Bros. home >in the Philly area. He asked if Tyvek wrap came standard. He was >told that " they [toll bros.] no longer do tyvek as it is starting to >show up as creating a mold issue which outweighs the benefit of draft >prevention " . Has anyone heard of this? > > Whitesell >MMTS Environmental > > > > > > > >FAIR USE NOTICE: > >This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 I believe you will find the recommendation of the two layers is to attempt to effectively create a drainage plane between the two sheets for a better flow of water that incidentally intrudes or overwhelms the first layer, I believe Joe Lstiburek's details have long referenced two layers of 15 # felt when using stucco on frame. Tyvec was originally concepted as an air barrier not as a drainage plane. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong. If by chance a plastic backed or paper backed lath is placed against the Tyvec, then you may have the start of the concept of the drainage plane (the double layer) that was trying to be created by the two layers of felt. The chemical stability of the two materials against each other may need to be checked (backing of lath and the Tyvec) to assure they will not affect each other. Ron www.themoldmanual.com B. , PE Engineering Corporation 880 Jupiter Park Drive, Suite 5 Jupiter, Florida 33458 Work- Fax- Cell From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of Stacey ChampionSent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 12:11 PMTo: iequality Subject: RE: Re: Tyvek on homes I have heard Tooley and Yost say the same thing in presentations. I’ll see if I can dig up some references this afternoon. Terry – should the 2-layer wrap be the norm (given that it’s built correctly), or would it only apply to certain climate regions? Stacey Champion From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of AirwaysEnv@...Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 9:35 AMTo: iequality Subject: Re: Re: Tyvek on homes Jeff,In a recent presentation by Joe L., he pointed out that when Tyvek house wrap is "stressed" (my term, not his) similar to a stress point on, or running your finger with pressure on, a canvas tent, it loses its ability to repel water. The pores in the "weave" (or sheet of heat-extruded spun polyolefin fibers) enlarge. I'm sure there are all sorts of surface tension factors, etc., that come into play.My recollection is that he suggested that a second layer of house wrap not subject to the same contact and stress points would help ensure that the drainage plane function of the material is preserved.I'm not sure if this what you were referring to. And I think I have it right, but someone please correct me if I'm wrong about what Joe is teaching regarding the second layer of Tyvek or add to my attempt at explaining it.Regards,Steve Temes Some years ago I was in the company of Steve Listibrurek, I can’t quote him but I am quite sure he said , Tyveck up against OSB and ply generally stopped some moisture but more importantly activated surfactants or soaps within the wood board, there either from manufacturing process or naturally. Once the soap was activated the surface tension of the water was reduced and readily passed through both ways by capillary action. P.S. Steve sorry if I wrongly attributed this to you, these thoughts were far too smart for me to have originated.Jeff Charltonwww.disasteradviceLondon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2006 Report Share Posted February 22, 2006 Group, While we perform Building Diagnostics on residential and commercial properties we have seen both good and poor Tyvek installations. When installed properly and according to the manufacturers recommendations, Tyvek does appear to perform well. Infact, most good products installed improperly will not perform well. Tyvek is designed to keep liquid (bulk) water away from building materials and yet allow the migration of water vapor through. Traditional building papers tend to absorb the water and allow it to migrate in or out depending upon the current climatic conditions. I don't believe that traditional building papers do as good of a job as Tyvek at protecting from bulk water intrusion from the exterior. Typically, wood siding manufacturers prefer to have asphalt building paper installed behind their siding products. Bulk water is absorbed by the paper instead of being re-directed into the back of the wood siding by Tyvek or similar wraps. In Minnesota, it is required to install two layers of a building paper behind traditional Portland cement stucco. Reason being, the first layer typically bonds to the stucco tightly and affects its moisture resistance characteristics, hence the need for the second layer. And, I agree with that too often the laborer in the field typically does not install building paper, or for that matter, most house wrap correctly. These materials must be installed correctly or issues may result. Therefore, the alternative is to do a better job of installing proper materials to keep bulk water out of the cavities while allowing the cavities to breath correctly. This is particularly difficult in our area where temperatures vary from minus 20 to over 100 degreesF. However, based upon data from our investigations, moisture in the form of vapor transmission does not appear to be as large of an issue as the intrusion of bulk water. Back to whether or not Tyvek should be used. It depends upon how and with which siding product it is installed. when applied correctly, with a compatible siding product, it should perform as designed. It is only one part of a system that is dependent upon the proper design, correct installation of the entire system, followed by applicable maintenance. Ignore any one part of the system and it can and usually will fail. Wayne Shellabarger Principal/Engineer Acuity Engineers, Inc. RE: Tyvek on homes I believe you will find the recommendation of the two layers is to attempt to effectively create a drainage plane between the two sheets for a better flow of water that incidentally intrudes or overwhelms the first layer, I believe Joe Lstiburek's details have long referenced two layers of 15 # felt when using stucco on frame. Tyvec was originally concepted as an air barrier not as a drainage plane. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong. If by chance a plastic backed or paper backed lath is placed against the Tyvec, then you may have the start of the concept of the drainage plane (the double layer) that was trying to be created by the two layers of felt. The chemical stability of the two materials against each other may need to be checked (backing of lath and the Tyvec) to assure they will not affect each other. Ron www.themoldmanual.com B. , PE Engineering Corporation 880 Jupiter Park Drive, Suite 5 Jupiter, Florida 33458 Work- Fax- Cell From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of Stacey ChampionSent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 12:11 PMTo: iequality Subject: RE: Re: Tyvek on homes I have heard Tooley and Yost say the same thing in presentations. I’ll see if I can dig up some references this afternoon. Terry – should the 2-layer wrap be the norm (given that it’s built correctly), or would it only apply to certain climate regions? Stacey Champion From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of AirwaysEnv@...Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 9:35 AMTo: iequality Subject: Re: Re: Tyvek on homes Jeff,In a recent presentation by Joe L., he pointed out that when Tyvek house wrap is "stressed" (my term, not his) similar to a stress point on, or running your finger with pressure on, a canvas tent, it loses its ability to repel water. The pores in the "weave" (or sheet of heat-extruded spun polyolefin fibers) enlarge. I'm sure there are all sorts of surface tension factors, etc., that come into play.My recollection is that he suggested that a second layer of house wrap not subject to the same contact and stress points would help ensure that the drainage plane function of the material is preserved.I'm not sure if this what you were referring to. And I think I have it right, but someone please correct me if I'm wrong about what Joe is teaching regarding the second layer of Tyvek or add to my attempt at explaining it.Regards,Steve Temes Some years ago I was in the company of Steve Listibrurek, I can’t quote him but I am quite sure he said , Tyveck up against OSB and ply generally stopped some moisture but more importantly activated surfactants or soaps within the wood board, there either from manufacturing process or naturally. Once the soap was activated the surface tension of the water was reduced and readily passed through both ways by capillary action. P.S. Steve sorry if I wrongly attributed this to you, these thoughts were far too smart for me to have originated.Jeff Charltonwww.disasteradviceLondon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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