Re: Normal Fungal Ecology

[Guest guest]

,

Yes, of course there exists a certain level of biology in our homes. I agree that we are driven as a over-sanitized and a over-scented society that is led to believe we need to have sterile homes filled with toxic fragrances. This is of serious concern to me. However this is not what is of issue here and I believe you know that .

I am speaking in terms of the health issues for occupants living in damp moldy buildings who are most susceptible to becoming ill as a result of these conditions. So no, the health and safety of occupants is not a relative term used here in regard to this subject.

Your desire to change what is considered to be "contamination" as per IIRC's S520 to be "housekeeping issues" with your attempt now to rationalize this with [low dose mycotoxins] being a good thing that will help build healthy immune systems of children, is very sad.

Bobbins, RN, L.Ac, QME

Ms. Bobbins: I am sorry....Did you ask me a question(s)? I’m not sure.Let me ask.....Is your home sterile? Do you never have bread that goes moldy? Have you never have an orange with a big green spot of penicillin? Ever take a swab sample from the bottom of your shoes and have it cultured?Fact is....Our dwellings are not sterile and we have things that get moldy. Moreover, in my opinion, a certain amount of hazardous agents in our environment is beneficial. Do you recall the discussion on IEQuality not so long ago where an article was posted regarding children growing-up in rural (dirty) environments seem to, as a group, have healthier immune systems than children growing-up in a urban/city environment? It was postulated because of low dose exposure to harmful agents. Including mycotoxins. I concur. It is termed Homeopathy; a term which I believe you are familiar with, or at least you should be. Mold spores specifically linked to causing health problems are part of our natural environment; some more and some less. I can accept that fact. I can also accept reasonably anticipated concentrations of these critters in most locations.I have seen some very sad situations where families are living in squalor and filth; much more than I would tolerate. Yet, they seem to show no signs of being sick or unhealthy; and these folks are just happy to have a roof over their heads and food on the table. I have also seen situations where families are living in REALLY clean conditions, much more than I would care to labor over, and they seem sick, have allergies, and have other health issues. I am not trying to make any broad generalities or to say that there should be, or is, any norm. However, the “best interest of the health and safety of the occupant†is a relative term. Similarly is “normal†amounts of mold found in homes. You and I probably differ on what constitutes “acceptable.†That’s OK with me.“Normal†is relative and fluid and changing. Tis why I prefer: anticipated trappings, because it takes into account the characteristics of the circumstance. I am not trying to imply anything, but poor housekeeping is relative. As is REALLY good housekeeping.....and spraying the air with Lysol, and deodorizers plugged into every wall socket, and constant vacuuming of the carpets, and other yucky stuff.I’m not sure.....did I answer a question?On 8/30/07 1:16 PM, "bobbinsbiomedaol" <bobbinsbiomedaol> wrote:

, You want to attribute "contamination" as per IICRC's S520 to be due to "housekeeping issues" and accepted as "normal" amounts of mold found in homes? I am referencing your statement below in your post to mean inclusion of molds with the types of spores more specifically linked to causing health problems. So I ask you, what part of this do you consider to be in the best interest of the health and safety of the occupant? The part that would establish acceptable levels of mycotoxin producing molds to be in homes? Or the part where you imply that these "normal" levels of spores found in homes are due to poor housekeeping skills? As to what is an acceptable amount of "biology" within a home, please do not attempt to casually throw molds into this unknown equation and mix of yours as to what you construe to be "normal." Bobbins, RN, L.Ac, QME In a message dated 8/28/2007 2:58:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time, mgeyeratg1 writes:

I for one, believe that some biology indoors is normal, it should be accepted as normal, and it should be a housekeeping issue – not representative of “contamination†as mentioned in IICRC’s S520. Drawing the line as to what is acceptable in your house, versus my house, versus Doe’s house, is the “crux of the biscuit†(to quote Zappa). Modern society has been lead to believe the Lysol commercials that the home should be free of germs, bacteria and mold, and be made to smell “Lysol fresh.†Choke!...Gasp!.....Yeah right!, and all the chemicals that go along with Lysol too. Does the IICRC do us a favor defining: normal fungal ecology,.....not sure, but it is a start. I sort of like Bob’s idea (it was Bob wasn’t it?), i.e., if it isn’t Condition 2 or Condition 3, then maybe it is: normal. Not perfect, but the idea has merit.For what it is worth....

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Bob

A majority of our cooling is by perspiration and only a small amount by heat conduction.

I have been in houses in Florida (my parents spent 6 months a year for almost two decades there) where people had their temperature set at 68 F but the Relative Humidity was close to 90% (sometimes over). They felt both cold and clammy at the same time. When I told them that they could be really comfortable at 75 F and 55 % RH they said I was stupid (sometimes in those very words) and what did Canadians know about heat anyway.

A Canadian builder who moved to Florida built a modified R2000 home there (vapor barrier near the outside) and ran his house at 75 & 55 and it was really comfortable. Neighbours said his instruments were wrong (they were not) but did agree that his indoor environment was comfortable. When he told them about his electricity bills (only a bit more in a year than theirs in a month) they said he was lying.

It will be necessary to do a lot of education to get the new ideas over, even to the manufacturers who have not properly understood ASHRAE in this area. Hell, the energy conservation fanatics have not bothered to read and understand ASHRAE either; hence air conditioners that do not remove enough water.

Jim H. White SSC

Re: Normal Fungal Ecology

Steve:I too believe that there is a normal biological ecology in all structures; some more, some less. Take for example the hot humid Southeast, e.g., east Texas, Mississippi, and Georgia. Mold growth on surfaces in not uncommon and it can be very normal. Mitigating mold growth in bathrooms is a significant housekeeping chore in the southeast. Some folks are better at it than others, and some are fastidious about cleanliness. And what does it take to keep the mold a bay?.....lots and lots of caustic and potentially harmful chemicals! So which is worse and which is doing more harm? (A rhetorical question that does not warrant an answer.) Why not accept that some ecology is going to happen? Also, take for example the Pacific Northwest where leather goods (jackets, handbags, belts, etc.), will mold in your closet (nice white and green colonies too!); because closets typically have inadequate air flow and the air is cool and humid. Not much AC use in these climates. Normal is where normal is.I for one, believe that some biology indoors is normal, it should be accepted as normal, and it should be a housekeeping issue – not representative of “contamination” as mentioned in IICRC’s S520. Drawing the line as to what is acceptable in your house, versus my house, versus Doe’s house, is the “crux of the biscuit” (to quote Zappa). Modern society has been lead to believe the Lysol commercials that the home should be free of germs, bacteria and mold, and be made to smell “Lysol fresh.” Choke!...Gasp!.....Yeah right!, and all the chemicals that go along with Lysol too. Does the IICRC do us a favor defining: normal fungal ecology,.....not sure, but it is a start. I sort of like Bob’s idea (it was Bob wasn’t it?), i.e., if it isn’t Condition 2 or Condition 3, then maybe it is: normal. Not perfect, but the idea has merit.For what it is worth....On 8/27/07 2:34 PM, "AirwaysEnvcs" <AirwaysEnvcs> wrote:

Bob s wrote: "So is mold growth normal in a home? I would say, yes. Mold growth is a fact of the natural ecosystem.Unless one manufacturers an artificial environment that consumes tons of energy to reduce moisture in all building materials, all the time, you will have some mold growth in a building-because that this the natural normal ecology.ei normal fungal ecology."Bob,I understand very well what you are saying and have no disagreement with the fact that mold can and does grow indoors and on building materials when there is moisture present. I also don't disagree that it is "normal" in a statistical sense for any given house to have indoor mold growth occurring somewhere.The problem I have is with the IICRC definition (or lack thereof) of their term "normal fungal ecology" in the context of an environmental assessment and how decisions are to be made by an IEP based on their term "Conditon 1". It essentially means that, for those "normal" indoor growth issues you raised, no remediation would be indicated because it is normal. Or worse, the definition of Condition 1 can be used to say that the levels of spores are "normal", therefore further remediation is not necessary.I am not arguing that it isn't normal for some mold growth to occur in a given structure at some point in time. Or that potted plants, or dogs going in and out, don't contribute to mold spores being present indoors normally. I'm saying that indoor mold growth does not meet the strict definition of fungal ecology (organisms competing against one another in their ecological niches as Shane discussed) unless the house is composting. And I am saying that it is not REALLY "normal", since visible mold growth in indoor environments is unacceptable and is an indication of a moisture problem.So, even if I agree in principle that normal fungal ecology exists in an indoor environment to the extent that it is normal for it to get wet (where that might be normal), I still don't agree that it should be considered Condition 1 for decision-making purposes. If you can identify how and why mold growth occurs indoors for the reasons you listed, and many others, why isn't this indoor growth considered Condition 3 or Condition 2? And if it is Condition 3 or Condition 2, it isn't normal fungal ecology by IICRC definition.It is the IICRC definition of "normal fungal ecology" and Condition 1 that is confusing, not that mold grows in buildings for the reasons you have discussed. Normal implies acceptable. Indoor fungal growth should only be considered normal if it is acceptable. It is hard to make the case that indoor growth is acceptable, no matter how normal it might be.Steve TemesIn a message dated 8/27/2007 10:52:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time, BobBsafety-epa writes:

Steve,You bring up a good question as to whether it is normal to have some mold growth in a home?The answer to this question, in most respects, is dependent upon what are the climatic norms for the location of the home and what is the home made of?For example, in warm southern climates and the tropics, you will find relative humidity levels that are above 80% RH for extended periods of time. We are not talking hours here, we are talking about days, weeks, or many months.If you present wood, paper, drywall, etc to these climatic conditions, they will grow mold. The growth may be very slow and in many cases may not be visible for a few years, but it will be there.The spanish knew this problem and hence built their buildings out of stone with plaster (lime) finishes. (also note the high pH that would minimize mold growth, but only until it got dirty.)As you move to northerly climates, the time that this level of humidity is present decreases, but it does not go away until you get to either deserts or extreme arctic condition. (Summers are very humid up in Canada and so is the wet soil.)During these climate conditions, normal mold growth, will occur in a building.Sure we can try to air condition, and dry out the interior portions, to minimize elevated RH, but we do not condition every surface of the exterior walls. Hence, some growth will eventually occur in the exterior walls. Just look at old buildings. Even 100 year old stone exteriors, will have some mold on the old 2 x 4 wall studs.A more recent area of the home where extend elevated moisture levels are now found are showers. Years ago, when buildings leaked more, you did not build up as much RH in bathrooms. But today, with much less air infiltration, and people who don't use their bath exhaust fans, you get mold in showers. The number of mold 'killing' bathroom chemicals has significantly increased in the last 10 years.This is another normal area where mold and other microbes can always be found growing in homes. This area is the drain pipes right above the P traps and inside of garbage disposals and in the overflow space in sinks. (Yes, I have smelled a few sink over flow holes in my days-that have turned out to be the problem.) Sometimes you can actually smell this mold and bacteria growth in poor ventilated bathrooms.Lastly, basements have a very high potential for elevated RH. There has been considerable discussion about crawl spaces (on the list) recently and what to do with them. Basements are tall crawl spaces with concrete floors. The water vapor below the concrete (w/o a vapor retarder or a disintegrated VB) will diffuse into the basement concrete floor and present elevated moisture levels - below tile or any other moisture barrier on the floor. (except in deserts-most of the time). Put carpeting on these concrete floors and you grow mold, bacteria etc. (putting in radon type sub slab ventilation can really minimize this problem.- but at an energy cost.)So is mold growth normal in a home? I would say, yes. Mold growth is a fact of the natural ecosystem.Unless one manufacturers an artificial environment that consumes tons of energy to reduce moisture in all building materials, all the time, you will have some mold growth in a building-because that this the natural normal ecology.ei normal fungal ecology.Bob

[Guest guest]

Some great points! My similar points follow:

1 Way back in 1983 a fellow CMHC researcher, , asked us if we really knew that a very clean indoor environment was ALL good; we thought he was joking but he wasn't.

2 Many of the houses that I get called into because occupants are sick used to have more serious mold problems that they did when I got there; but the occupants were sicker and so was I sick before I left. The houses were loaded with toxic cleaners and air fresheners used almost every day. One lady got withdrawal symptoms when she quite using her toxic cleaners.

3 The human body has many control systems for its many functions; not something taught to doctors or nurses. Some of ours have to be taught/programmed, however, by exposure to our environments. Inadequate exposure leads to inappropriate responses. I wonder if the medical community will ever even study this effect? Some new fighter aircraft are statically and dynamically unstable and are flyable only because the control systems are instructed in such a way that the net system is stable. I have often wondered if our bodies are only fully functional because of the 'control' systems in our immune system and organs make them so.

Peace

Jim H. White SSC

Re: Normal Fungal Ecology

Ms. Bobbins:I am sorry....Did you ask me a question(s)? I’m not sure.Let me ask.....Is your home sterile? Do you never have bread that goes moldy? Have you never have an orange with a big green spot of penicillin? Ever take a swab sample from the bottom of your shoes and have it cultured?Fact is....Our dwellings are not sterile and we have things that get moldy. Moreover, in my opinion, a certain amount of hazardous agents in our environment is beneficial. Do you recall the discussion on IEQuality not so long ago where an article was posted regarding children growing-up in rural (dirty) environments seem to, as a group, have healthier immune systems than children growing-up in a urban/city environment? It was postulated because of low dose exposure to harmful agents. Including mycotoxins. I concur. It is termed Homeopathy; a term which I believe you are familiar with, or at least you should be. Mold spores specifically linked to causing health problems are part of our natural environment; some more and some less. I can accept that fact. I can also accept reasonably anticipated concentrations of these critters in most locations.I have seen some very sad situations where families are living in squalor and filth; much more than I would tolerate. Yet, they seem to show no signs of being sick or unhealthy; and these folks are just happy to have a roof over their heads and food on the table. I have also seen situations where families are living in REALLY clean conditions, much more than I would care to labor over, and they seem sick, have allergies, and have other health issues. I am not trying to make any broad generalities or to say that there should be, or is, any norm. However, the “best interest of the health and safety of the occupant” is a relative term. Similarly is “normal” amounts of mold found in homes. You and I probably differ on what constitutes “acceptable.” That’s OK with me.“Normal” is relative and fluid and changing. Tis why I prefer: anticipated trappings, because it takes into account the characteristics of the circumstance. I am not trying to imply anything, but poor housekeeping is relative. As is REALLY good housekeeping.....and spraying the air with Lysol, and deodorizers plugged into every wall socket, and constant vacuuming of the carpets, and other yucky stuff.I’m not sure.....did I answer a question?On 8/30/07 1:16 PM, "bobbinsbiomedaol" <bobbinsbiomedaol> wrote:

, You want to attribute "contamination" as per IICRC's S520 to be due to "housekeeping issues" and accepted as "normal" amounts of mold found in homes? I am referencing your statement below in your post to mean inclusion of molds with the types of spores more specifically linked to causing health problems. So I ask you, what part of this do you consider to be in the best interest of the health and safety of the occupant? The part that would establish acceptable levels of mycotoxin producing molds to be in homes? Or the part where you imply that these "normal" levels of spores found in homes are due to poor housekeeping skills? As to what is an acceptable amount of "biology" within a home, please do not attempt to casually throw molds into this unknown equation and mix of yours as to what you construe to be "normal." Bobbins, RN, L.Ac, QME In a message dated 8/28/2007 2:58:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time, mgeyeratg1 writes:

I for one, believe that some biology indoors is normal, it should be accepted as normal, and it should be a housekeeping issue – not representative of “contamination” as mentioned in IICRC’s S520. Drawing the line as to what is acceptable in your house, versus my house, versus Doe’s house, is the “crux of the biscuit” (to quote Zappa). Modern society has been lead to believe the Lysol commercials that the home should be free of germs, bacteria and mold, and be made to smell “Lysol fresh.” Choke!...Gasp!.....Yeah right!, and all the chemicals that go along with Lysol too. Does the IICRC do us a favor defining: normal fungal ecology,.....not sure, but it is a start. I sort of like Bob’s idea (it was Bob wasn’t it?), i.e., if it isn’t Condition 2 or Condition 3, then maybe it is: normal. Not perfect, but the idea has merit.For what it is worth....

Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com <http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour/?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000982> .

[Guest guest]

What is normal?

Well, if we look at the studies about reduced incidence of asthma with

dirtier houses and the existence of pets, and living on farms,

Maybe,

Our normal mold levels are too low?

Or are they the wrong species?

Or maybe we keep kids too clean or not exposed to the " right " types of

mold early on, so they don't over

react to them.

The implications is that some mold may be a good thing.

Bob

[Guest guest]

What is normal?

Well, if we look at the studies about reduced incidence of asthma with

dirtier houses and the existence of pets, and living on farms,

Maybe,

Our normal mold levels are too low?

Or are they the wrong species?

Or maybe we keep kids too clean or not exposed to the " right " types of

mold early on, so they don't over

react to them.

The implications is that some mold may be a good thing.

Bob