Guest guest Posted June 26, 2006 Report Share Posted June 26, 2006 Thank you, Jim!!! All of the minutae here lately has been making my brain hurt, which is why I've been quiet, and therefore, well behaved. IMHO, simple issues have been made way too complicated on this board. " Real World " is where we should be concentrating. Are there so many of us that are so starved for buisness, real projects to perform, and real people to help that we feel the need to become arm- chair research chemists?? KISS = Keep It Simple Stupid Cheers & KISS to all, Simple-mindedly, Chuck Reaney, CIAQetc. To: <iequality > Date sent: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 16:53:39 -0400 Subject: Inhaled Mycotoxins Send reply to: iequality This is my day for saying enough is enough!! The whole discussion (and lousy research upon which it was based) on inhaled mycotoxins seems to ignore, or worse still be unaware of, the delivery mechanisms of most SVOC and other low vapor pressure toxins such as pesticides. They come into our lungs and thence into our blood stream and bodies (without first going through or liver and kidneys to be detoxified) when they are absorbed into and adsorbed onto fine particulate that gets deep into our lungs. By the time our clearance mechanisms have removed these fine particles, virtually all of the toxin has been absorbed into the lung fluids, some of which are fats that can hold fat-soluble compounds. SVOC and lower vapor pressure compounds do not enter the body via the volatile, gas route but piggy-backed on particles. Surely this is self-evident! Any study that tries to expose animals (including humans) with low vapor pressure pollutants using gas-only routes is, of course, going to show low exposures, doses and risk factors. Since that is not a real world exposure route one can only assume that the study was purposefully flawed, and that thinking people would not see through it. Maybe, of course, there are few thinking people left. The real world is; all the rest is opinion (and flim-flam). Jim H. White System Science Consulting 2. Re: STUDY FINDS HIGH MOLD LEVELS IN POST-KATRINA NEW ORLEANS... Posted by: " snk1955@... " snk1955@... snk1955 Date: Sat Jun 24, 2006 7:28 am (PDT) In a message dated 6/23/2006 11:12:59 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, steve.carlson@... writes: I have stated that a human cannot inhale enough mycotoxins to cause a toxic reaction, Hey Steve, Every idea has an origin of concept. Can you cite for me when and upon what scientific evidence you came to understand 'a human cannot inhale enough mycotoxins to cause a toxic reaction " ? I will give you a hint to maybe jar your memory, it was in the year 2000. What I am trying to tell you all is that what you believe to be true regarding the above statement is based solely on one review piece, authored by expert witnesses for the defense in mold litigation, and it is only based upon rodent studies with math applied to come the above conclusion. One single review piece. That's it. It is not science to take a rodent study, apply math and deduce all human illness is not plausible. If I am wrong, then please cite for me any other study that makes this conclusion, without referencing this review piece for its source. This is not science. It is marketing. Do you all understand it? Other scientists do. Sharon _____________________________________________ Alpha Environmental, Inc. Indoor Air Quality & Environmental Consulting 624 W. St. s Dr. Media, PA 19063 Phone: Fax: _____________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 26, 2006 Report Share Posted June 26, 2006 Jim White wrote: > The real world is; all the rest is opinion (and flim-flam). Is that another way of saying that science may describe but does not determine the real world? Carl Grimes Healthy Habitats LLC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 26, 2006 Report Share Posted June 26, 2006 Animal studies have shown that inhalation is actually a very efficient method of getting mycotoxins into the body, much more so than, say, ingestion. And several recent studies have made it very clear that the bulk of mycotoxins in the air of mold-contaminated buildings are on the tiniest particles.. particles too small to be indentified as fungal fragments microscopically. However, they DO clearly (in the case of stachybotrys-contaminated spaces) inhibit protein synthesis strongly. From everything that I have read, they also cause massive, systemic inflammation (and often, apoptopsis) in every animal ( i.e. also human) tissue they come into contact with. (including ones that they reach through the bloodstream)If anyone can give me an example where that has not proven to be the case I would be very surprised. When you have toxins this strong, there should not be a question about whether they are damaging.. its a given.. People who claim that mycotoxins are not toxic have never lived with them. I have and I have a list of what must be at least fifty to a hundred different symptoms that I had, some have gone away since leaving but some have lasted.. These symptoms are not unlike the symptoms many other people have who have been in moldy buildings for too long.. like ringing in the ears and a burning feeling in the throat, clouding of my vision, both destruction of my sense of smell and extreme sensitivity (and nausea at) some smells, holes in my visual field, numbness and sometimes, pain in extremities, headaches, forgetting things, confusion, pain in my kidneys/liver, etc, People who have been there understand.. You are never, ever the same after this.. It ages you prematurely on a massive scale.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2006 Report Share Posted June 27, 2006 Greetings from the ASHRAE Annual Meeting in Quebec (a truly beautiful city!): (1) from the " IAQ Info Center " at our **NEW** website: Bruce Jarvis, Ph.D., University of land Mycotoxins are readily absorbed by the intestinal lining, airways and skin Can cause flu-like symptoms; act to suppress immune system response " Chemistry and Toxicology of Molds Isolated from Water-Damaged Buildings " , presented at the 220th National Meeting of the American Chemical Society, August 20-24, 2000 (2) from my research in this matter, but NOT on our website: S. Gravesen, et al, Danish Building Research Institute " …it has been experimentally documented that the toxic effects of mycotoxin T-2 toxin were 10 to 20 times stronger by inhalation than by ingestion. " " Microfungal Contamination of Damp Buildings – Examples of Risk Constructions and Risk Materials " , Environmental Health Perspectives, Vol 107, Supp 3, June 1999 I hope this is helpful. Wane <><><><><><><><><><><> Wane A. Baker, P.E., CIH Division Manager, Indoor Air Quality MICHAELS ENGINEERING " Real Professionals. Real Solutions " Phone , ext. 484 Cell Fax mailto:wab@... On the web at: http://www.michaelsengineering.com " To love what you do and feel that it matters - how could anything be more fun? " - Graham > > " Animal studies have shown that inhalation is actually a very efficient > method of getting mycotoxins into the body, much more so than, say, > ingestion. " > > > > Livesimply - > > > > Can you please cite this source, as the majority of research out there on > mycotoxins deals directly with ingestion as far as I am aware. > > > > There are so many unknowns about mycotoxins as it is. Also, just because a > certain species has the ability to produce mycotoxins, does not mean that it > always is/does. There is much work to be done in this arena for sure. > Also, it is important to remember that there are many other contributing > factors to poor indoor environmental quality, especially in chronically damp > buildings, etc. Endotoxins, insects, volatile organic compounds - all of > these things play a major role in the health of a building and its > occupants. It is, nor should be, a big surprise to anyone that living or > working in damp, moldy places is not healthy. This seems like common sense > to me. But to say that the only thing affecting people's health in these > spaces is mycotoxins is simply preposterous. I have no doubt that this may > piss some of you off, but it's reality. > > > > I too am sensitized to different things and can't walk down the cleaning > aisle of a grocery store without sneezing, etc. I am good about wearing PPE > while out in the field, but have gone into a store unaware, felt a physical > reaction, then looked up to see a large patch of mold on the ceiling. Can I > say with utmost certainty that it is only mycotoxins causing these > reactions? No. > > > > > > Best Regards, > > > > Stacey Champion > > > > > > > > _____ > > From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf > Of LiveSimply > Sent: Monday, June 26, 2006 6:50 PM > To: iequality > Subject: Re: Inhaled Mycotoxins > > > > Animal studies have shown that inhalation is actually a very efficient > method of getting mycotoxins into the body, much more so than, say, > ingestion. And several recent studies have made it very clear that the bulk > of mycotoxins in the air of mold-contaminated buildings are on the tiniest > particles.. particles too small to be indentified as fungal fragments > microscopically. However, they DO clearly (in the case of > stachybotrys-contaminated spaces) inhibit protein synthesis strongly. From > everything that I have read, they also cause massive, systemic inflammation > (and often, apoptopsis) in every animal ( i.e. also human) tissue they come > into contact with. (including ones that they reach through the bloodstream) > > If anyone can give me an example where that has not proven to be the case I > would be very surprised. When you have toxins this strong, there should not > be a question about whether they are damaging.. its a given.. > > People who claim that mycotoxins are not toxic have never lived with them. I > have and I have a list of what must be at least fifty to a hundred different > symptoms that I had, some have gone away since leaving but some have > lasted.. > > These symptoms are not unlike the symptoms many other people have who have > been in moldy buildings for too long.. like ringing in the ears and a > burning feeling in the throat, clouding of my vision, both destruction of my > sense of smell and extreme sensitivity (and nausea at) some smells, holes in > my visual field, numbness and sometimes, pain in extremities, headaches, > forgetting things, confusion, pain in my kidneys/liver, etc, > > People who have been there understand.. You are never, ever the same after > this.. It ages you prematurely on a massive scale.. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2006 Report Share Posted June 27, 2006 Wane, In your studies on airborne (inhaled) mycotoxins, what sampling procedures and media did you use? Moffett Re: Inhaled Mycotoxins > > > > Animal studies have shown that inhalation is actually a very efficient > method of getting mycotoxins into the body, much more so than, say, > ingestion. And several recent studies have made it very clear that the bulk > of mycotoxins in the air of mold-contaminated buildings are on the tiniest > particles.. particles too small to be indentified as fungal fragments > microscopically. However, they DO clearly (in the case of > stachybotrys-contaminated spaces) inhibit protein synthesis strongly. From > everything that I have read, they also cause massive, systemic inflammation > (and often, apoptopsis) in every animal ( i.e. also human) tissue they come > into contact with. (including ones that they reach through the bloodstream) > > If anyone can give me an example where that has not proven to be the case I > would be very surprised. When you have toxins this strong, there should not > be a question about whether they are damaging.. its a given.. > > People who claim that mycotoxins are not toxic have never lived with them. I > have and I have a list of what must be at least fifty to a hundred different > symptoms that I had, some have gone away since leaving but some have > lasted.. > > These symptoms are not unlike the symptoms many other people have who have > been in moldy buildings for too long.. like ringing in the ears and a > burning feeling in the throat, clouding of my vision, both destruction of my > sense of smell and extreme sensitivity (and nausea at) some smells, holes in > my visual field, numbness and sometimes, pain in extremities, headaches, > forgetting things, confusion, pain in my kidneys/liver, etc, > > People who have been there understand.. You are never, ever the same after > this.. It ages you prematurely on a massive scale.. > FAIR USE NOTICE: This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2006 Report Share Posted June 28, 2006 Thanks for the references, Wane. What a guy!!! Who says those guys in Badger Country don't know their stuff? Miles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2006 Report Share Posted June 28, 2006 Hi : sorry if my message was unclear. I didn't intend to imply that I had conducted some type of academic research. as is generally the case, my " research " consists of a review of the relevant literature. specifically, I was responding to Stacey's question: " Can you please cite this source, as the majority of research out there on mycotoxins deals directly with ingestion as far as I am aware. " I think the references I provided were responsive to her query. regards, Wane > > > > " Animal studies have shown that inhalation is actually a very > efficient > > method of getting mycotoxins into the body, much more so than, say, > > ingestion. " > > > > > > > > Livesimply - > > > > > > > > Can you please cite this source, as the majority of research out > there on > > mycotoxins deals directly with ingestion as far as I am aware. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2006 Report Share Posted June 28, 2006 Wane, I understand, but since you are a literature junkie like me, what sources do you have that talk about air sampling of mycotoxins, since inhalation of mycotoxins are becoming more of an exposure issue? Thanks, Re: Inhaled Mycotoxins Hi : sorry if my message was unclear. I didn't intend to imply that I had conducted some type of academic research. as is generally the case, my " research " consists of a review of the relevant literature. specifically, I was responding to Stacey's question: " Can you please cite this source, as the majority of research out there on mycotoxins deals directly with ingestion as far as I am aware. " I think the references I provided were responsive to her query. regards, Wane > > > > " Animal studies have shown that inhalation is actually a very > efficient > > method of getting mycotoxins into the body, much more so than, say, > > ingestion. " > > > > > > > > Livesimply - > > > > > > > > Can you please cite this source, as the majority of research out > there on > > mycotoxins deals directly with ingestion as far as I am aware. > > > > > > FAIR USE NOTICE: This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 29, 2006 Report Share Posted June 29, 2006 Does anyone know how much air a person breathes per day? (in volume)Its quite a bit. And lungs catch the tiniest particles - only...Even if the amount of mycotoxins like the macrocyclic trichothecenes found in stachybotrys particles - is very small, chronic, low level inhalation of those toxins, day after day, week after week, and even year after year, can cause profound changes in a person's life. Afrer all, 50 milligrams of some of these toxins at once, can kill. (and they have proven to be synergistic, so who is to say what the effect was of taking say, 1 milligram of satratoxin g, 1 milligram of satratoxin H, 2 milligrams of roridin A, etc, every 24 hours.. over the period of say, a year.. two years, five years.. Nomatter what it was, or is, it wasn't good...We already have some good ideas about what inhibition of protein synthesis does to children.. Certainly, there are parallel issues in adults, particularly where the brain is involved.. If the body can't repair itself, or properly integrate new information, physical or emotional.. where does that leave any of us, in this world in which lifelong learning is crucial to survival and economic progress? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 2006 Report Share Posted June 30, 2006 A paper I read recently showed that stachybotrys toxins changes the ability of the lungs to synthesize the fluid it uses to coat (and protect) the lining of the lungs, which is based on CDP choline, from what I gather. Perhaps this explains some of the phramaco-dynamics of lung injury? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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