more on KOs in relationships

[Guest guest]

Hi posters, hope everyone is well. I have to confront something soon, also

along the

relationship lines, and it's causing me a great deal of grief. I suppose it's

somewhat off-

topic, although my response to it is shaped completely by the verbal abuse from

nada.

I've recently started dating someone, and I've noticed that his little

joke-styled criticisms

of me have become worse. In fact, he's done it so many times now that I am

starting to go

back to the place that nada would put me in when I was a child. I am wondering

how to

tell if there is a real problem, or if I am being hyper-sensitive because of

nada, and he's

truly not abusive.

Here's what was said last night: why did I need a scarf, it wasn't that cold?

Kindof joking.

(He is from a very cold country; I am from a very warm one, so I get COLD.)

What time did

I get up? (He gets up very early for work; I need at least 9 hours of sleep.)

Why did I need

so much sleep? (Implication that I 'shouldn't'.) And when he opened the car

door for me,

which has always been his idea, he said 'jokingly', what, you can't even open

the door for

yourself?

This was nada's technique. I was split black, and also annihilated. Literally

every little

basic thing I did--how I dressed, how I ate, slept, etc--was attacked as stupid,

ugly, and

basically illegitimate. To the extent that what he does smacks of that, it will

re-trigger

me, and then I will feel completely ugly around him, and the angry side of me

will come

out, too. That is no way to start a love affair.

So I am going to talk to him about it tonight and try to convey this, and see

how he

responds. I am wondering how to tell if he is truly abusive, or like nada, or

if he was just

tired/in a bad mood last night so he was picking on me more than usual. Can

such

comments ever be non-toxic, non-intentional? I really, really don't want to

lose this guy;

but I'll be da**ned if I am going to enter into another nada-style relationship

after how

hard I have worked, and all I have faced!

I know I have to talk to him tonight, so any input anyone has would be very

greatly

appreciated!

Best,

Charlie

[Guest guest]

Hi Charlie, Red flag, red flag, red flag. Those questions and 'little

joke-styled criticisms' would set me off. Maybe I am too sensitive

or maybe I just have a good sense of self respect now, but I wouldn't

tolerate them. Just keep both eyes open and don't be blind. ( love is

blind) Also, remember that if this is the beginning of a

relationship, it is probably as good as it gets. In general, people

are on their best behavior early on in a relationship. For me,

whether he was tired or not wouldn't make much difference. I just

don't allow those kinds of judgements on me any more. I especially

would be triggered by the insinuation that I sleep too much. That

really is my business not my husbands or anyone else. I also need

about 8-9 hours of sleep. I deserve it and have earned the right to

take care of myself whatever it takes. Just be careful. Don't give

away your heart until you are sure you are choosing what you want and

need in life to be really happy. Dee

>

> Hi posters, hope everyone is well. I have to confront something

soon, also along the

> relationship lines, and it's causing me a great deal of grief. I

suppose it's somewhat off-

> topic, although my response to it is shaped completely by the verbal

abuse from nada.

>

> I've recently started dating someone, and I've noticed that his

little joke-styled criticisms

> of me have become worse. In fact, he's done it so many times now

that I am starting to go

> back to the place that nada would put me in when I was a child. I

am wondering how to

> tell if there is a real problem, or if I am being hyper-sensitive

because of nada, and he's

> truly not abusive.

>

> Here's what was said last night: why did I need a scarf, it wasn't

that cold? Kindof joking.

> (He is from a very cold country; I am from a very warm one, so I get

COLD.) What time did

> I get up? (He gets up very early for work; I need at least 9 hours

of sleep.) Why did I need

> so much sleep? (Implication that I 'shouldn't'.) And when he

opened the car door for me,

> which has always been his idea, he said 'jokingly', what, you can't

even open the door for

> yourself?

>

> This was nada's technique. I was split black, and also annihilated.

Literally every little

> basic thing I did--how I dressed, how I ate, slept, etc--was

attacked as stupid, ugly, and

> basically illegitimate. To the extent that what he does smacks of

that, it will re-trigger

> me, and then I will feel completely ugly around him, and the angry

side of me will come

> out, too. That is no way to start a love affair.

>

> So I am going to talk to him about it tonight and try to convey

this, and see how he

> responds. I am wondering how to tell if he is truly abusive, or

like nada, or if he was just

> tired/in a bad mood last night so he was picking on me more than

usual. Can such

> comments ever be non-toxic, non-intentional? I really, really don't

want to lose this guy;

> but I'll be da**ned if I am going to enter into another nada-style

relationship after how

> hard I have worked, and all I have faced!

>

> I know I have to talk to him tonight, so any input anyone has would

be very greatly

> appreciated!

>

> Best,

> Charlie

>

[Guest guest]

Hi, Charlie!

Yeah, I totally agree with you -- you should definitely talk to him about this!

Whether or not you're over-reacting (and for what it's worth, I think this

behavior would've bothered me, too) it's important to let him know if anything

he says or does makes you feel uncomfortable, insecure or (god forbid)

unattractive. Who needs to feel that way when you're supposed to be in the

initial infatuation stage -- ?! If you talk to him about it, you're giving him

the chance to knock it off and be the great guy we all hope he is.

I'd also pay close attention to how he reacts when you bring it up. Ideally,

he'll just apologize and then follow through with not doing it anymore -- or,

catching himself if he does it in the future, and correcting himself on the

spot. I think the most important thing is that he's receptive to what you say

and remains respectful to your point of view, whether or not he agrees with it.

I think a good guy wouldn't want to keep doing something once you tell him it

makes you feel bad!

Anyhow, the reason I stress watching his reaction is that I was married to an

emotionally abusive rageaholic, and a single girlfriend of mine became involved

with one last year. NOT to say this cutie is one of them!! But there are some

red flags to watch for in his response -- as generally, emotional abusers start

out with more subtle, seemingly innocuous behaviors (like veiled criticisms and

put-downs) to test the waters and then gradually escalate to full-out abusive

behavior over time.

So, here's what I'd look for: You don't want him to deny that his behavior

could reasonably be seen as being criticical (however unintentionally) or that

you're " just making it up. " You don't want him to justify why he was being

critical -- it's a huge red flag if he tries to point out that you really DIDN'T

need the scarf, and that he was therefore justified in pointing out this big

scarf-needing flaw of yours, or that in his opinion you DO sleep too much! And,

most importantly, you don't want him to be dismissive or accuse you of

over-reacting or making a mountain out of a molehill. If this guy's a keeper,

he's going to respect your point of view.

Geeze, dating advice is fun! Anyhow, I'd say to give the guy the benefit of the

doubt -- let him know as nicely as possible that this is bothering you and then

pay close attention to his response.

Good luck tonight. Let us know how it goes!

Shana

more on KOs in relationships

To: WTOAdultChildren1

> Hi posters, hope everyone is well. I have to confront

> something soon, also along the

> relationship lines, and it's causing me a great deal of grief.

> I suppose it's somewhat off-

> topic, although my response to it is shaped completely by the

> verbal abuse from nada.

>

> I've recently started dating someone, and I've noticed that his

> little joke-styled criticisms

> of me have become worse. In fact, he's done it so many times

> now that I am starting to go

> back to the place that nada would put me in when I was a child.

> I am wondering how to

> tell if there is a real problem, or if I am being hyper-

> sensitive because of nada, and he's

> truly not abusive.

>

> Here's what was said last night: why did I need a scarf, it

> wasn't that cold? Kindof joking.

> (He is from a very cold country; I am from a very warm one, so I

> get COLD.) What time did

> I get up? (He gets up very early for work; I need at least 9

> hours of sleep.) Why did I need

> so much sleep? (Implication that I 'shouldn't'.) And when he

> opened the car door for me,

> which has always been his idea, he said 'jokingly', what, you

> can't even open the door for

> yourself?

>

> This was nada's technique. I was split black, and also

> annihilated. Literally every little

> basic thing I did--how I dressed, how I ate, slept, etc--was

> attacked as stupid, ugly, and

> basically illegitimate. To the extent that what he does smacks

> of that, it will re-trigger

> me, and then I will feel completely ugly around him, and the

> angry side of me will come

> out, too. That is no way to start a love affair.

>

> So I am going to talk to him about it tonight and try to convey

> this, and see how he

> responds. I am wondering how to tell if he is truly abusive, or

> like nada, or if he was just

> tired/in a bad mood last night so he was picking on me more than

> usual. Can such

> comments ever be non-toxic, non-intentional? I really, really

> don't want to lose this guy;

> but I'll be da**ned if I am going to enter into another nada-

> style relationship after how

> hard I have worked, and all I have faced!

>

> I know I have to talk to him tonight, so any input anyone has

> would be very greatly

> appreciated!

>

> Best,

> Charlie

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hey Charlie,

It seems like as you heal you become less hypersensitive and more in

tune with your true feelings and for me these days it seems I always

question them. I figured out that I need to push forward even if I'm

in the wrong, just so I can gain that confidence in my intuition. I

don't think you're over reacting, I think your simply questioning

whether or not this guy treats you good. That's my take on it.

>

> Hi posters, hope everyone is well. I have to confront something

soon, also along the

> relationship lines, and it's causing me a great deal of grief. I

suppose it's somewhat off-

> topic, although my response to it is shaped completely by the verbal

abuse from nada.

>

> I've recently started dating someone, and I've noticed that his

little joke-styled criticisms

> of me have become worse. In fact, he's done it so many times now

that I am starting to go

> back to the place that nada would put me in when I was a child. I

am wondering how to

> tell if there is a real problem, or if I am being hyper-sensitive

because of nada, and he's

> truly not abusive.

>

> Here's what was said last night: why did I need a scarf, it wasn't

that cold? Kindof joking.

> (He is from a very cold country; I am from a very warm one, so I get

COLD.) What time did

> I get up? (He gets up very early for work; I need at least 9 hours

of sleep.) Why did I need

> so much sleep? (Implication that I 'shouldn't'.) And when he

opened the car door for me,

> which has always been his idea, he said 'jokingly', what, you can't

even open the door for

> yourself?

>

> This was nada's technique. I was split black, and also annihilated.

Literally every little

> basic thing I did--how I dressed, how I ate, slept, etc--was

attacked as stupid, ugly, and

> basically illegitimate. To the extent that what he does smacks of

that, it will re-trigger

> me, and then I will feel completely ugly around him, and the angry

side of me will come

> out, too. That is no way to start a love affair.

>

> So I am going to talk to him about it tonight and try to convey

this, and see how he

> responds. I am wondering how to tell if he is truly abusive, or

like nada, or if he was just

> tired/in a bad mood last night so he was picking on me more than

usual. Can such

> comments ever be non-toxic, non-intentional? I really, really don't

want to lose this guy;

> but I'll be da**ned if I am going to enter into another nada-style

relationship after how

> hard I have worked, and all I have faced!

>

> I know I have to talk to him tonight, so any input anyone has would

be very greatly

> appreciated!

>

> Best,

> Charlie

>

[Guest guest]

Charlie,

Shana touched on what I was going to share. If you confront him and

he blows it off, then that's another red flag.

***Whether you are sensitive or not, he should be sensitive to your

needs!***

We have to teach people how we want to be treated. Let him know it's

not ok.

a

[Guest guest]

Hey Charlie,

First - good for you for dealing with this right away. I do not

think you are being hypersensitive. I think you will learn alot

about him from the way he handles this discussion. So sooner is

better than later.

Here is somehing that set off a red flag for me. You said his joke-

style criticisms are getting worse. Since this is the beginning of

a relationship, I am wondering if he is does this type of joking

when he should be on his best behavior (beginning of a

relationship), just how bad might it get when he feels real

comfortable? I personally don't enjoy this kind of joking at all,

especially in a love relationship. And maybe, like you, it is

because I also had a nada who would focus on imperfections. (Give me

the guy who truly realizes what a wonderful person I am and

considers it his good fortune to have me in his life!)

I would consider him abusive, if, after you have explained yourself

to him, he minimizes your feelings, or berates you for them, makes a

joke about them, discounts them, or returns to the same behavior,

and feigns oblivion to what he is doing etc.

Good for you in setting this boundary.

Sylvia

>

> Hi posters, hope everyone is well. I have to confront something

soon, also along the

> relationship lines, and it's causing me a great deal of grief. I

suppose it's somewhat off-

> topic, although my response to it is shaped completely by the

verbal abuse from nada.

>

> I've recently started dating someone, and I've noticed that his

little joke-styled criticisms

> of me have become worse. In fact, he's done it so many times now

that I am starting to go

> back to the place that nada would put me in when I was a child. I

am wondering how to

> tell if there is a real problem, or if I am being hyper-sensitive

because of nada, and he's

> truly not abusive.

>

> Here's what was said last night: why did I need a scarf, it

wasn't that cold? Kindof joking.

> (He is from a very cold country; I am from a very warm one, so I

get COLD.) What time did

> I get up? (He gets up very early for work; I need at least 9

hours of sleep.) Why did I need

> so much sleep? (Implication that I 'shouldn't'.) And when he

opened the car door for me,

> which has always been his idea, he said 'jokingly', what, you

can't even open the door for

> yourself?

>

> This was nada's technique. I was split black, and also

annihilated. Literally every little

> basic thing I did--how I dressed, how I ate, slept, etc--was

attacked as stupid, ugly, and

> basically illegitimate. To the extent that what he does smacks of

that, it will re-trigger

> me, and then I will feel completely ugly around him, and the angry

side of me will come

> out, too. That is no way to start a love affair.

>

> So I am going to talk to him about it tonight and try to convey

this, and see how he

> responds. I am wondering how to tell if he is truly abusive, or

like nada, or if he was just

> tired/in a bad mood last night so he was picking on me more than

usual. Can such

> comments ever be non-toxic, non-intentional? I really, really

don't want to lose this guy;

> but I'll be da**ned if I am going to enter into another nada-style

relationship after how

> hard I have worked, and all I have faced!

>

> I know I have to talk to him tonight, so any input anyone has

would be very greatly

> appreciated!

>

> Best,

> Charlie

>

[Guest guest]

Charlie,

Hmm... red flags go off to me, because I dated guys like that.

Bossy, condescending, controlling. I only dated a couple of them,

but it only got worse.

My DH is not like that. If he says something snappy, I usually call

him on it, and he either apologizes or we argue for a minute until

he apologizes and then explains he was stuck in traffic, had a long

day, and was in a bad mood.

I think that us KO's are drawn to partners that are like our

parents. Most girls want to marry a guy like their dad, guys want to

find a girl like their mom, etc. More or less, this seems to be the

theory I've heard. This can also be applied to girls finding a guy

who treats them the way they are used to being treated by their

nadas... for me, it was what I was used to. It was familiar. I

trusted nada at that point in my life, and I trusted the guys who

acted like her. It was sick.

Talk to him. I'd say if he apologizes, listens to you, and explains

that he was kidding (inappropriately... the door comment was REALLY

belittling to you!) then he may be ok, but if he gets defensive or

puts you down, pay attention to that.

I hope this works out for you. Relationships can be dangerous ground

for us KO's... keep us posted.

Grace

>

> Hi posters, hope everyone is well. I have to confront something

soon, also along the

> relationship lines, and it's causing me a great deal of grief. I

suppose it's somewhat off-

> topic, although my response to it is shaped completely by the

verbal abuse from nada.

>

> I've recently started dating someone, and I've noticed that his

little joke-styled criticisms

> of me have become worse. In fact, he's done it so many times now

that I am starting to go

> back to the place that nada would put me in when I was a child. I

am wondering how to

> tell if there is a real problem, or if I am being hyper-sensitive

because of nada, and he's

> truly not abusive.

>

> Here's what was said last night: why did I need a scarf, it

wasn't that cold? Kindof joking.

> (He is from a very cold country; I am from a very warm one, so I

get COLD.) What time did

> I get up? (He gets up very early for work; I need at least 9

hours of sleep.) Why did I need

> so much sleep? (Implication that I 'shouldn't'.) And when he

opened the car door for me,

> which has always been his idea, he said 'jokingly', what, you

can't even open the door for

> yourself?

>

> This was nada's technique. I was split black, and also

annihilated. Literally every little

> basic thing I did--how I dressed, how I ate, slept, etc--was

attacked as stupid, ugly, and

> basically illegitimate. To the extent that what he does smacks of

that, it will re-trigger

> me, and then I will feel completely ugly around him, and the angry

side of me will come

> out, too. That is no way to start a love affair.

>

> So I am going to talk to him about it tonight and try to convey

this, and see how he

> responds. I am wondering how to tell if he is truly abusive, or

like nada, or if he was just

> tired/in a bad mood last night so he was picking on me more than

usual. Can such

> comments ever be non-toxic, non-intentional? I really, really

don't want to lose this guy;

> but I'll be da**ned if I am going to enter into another nada-style

relationship after how

> hard I have worked, and all I have faced!

>

> I know I have to talk to him tonight, so any input anyone has

would be very greatly

> appreciated!

>

> Best,

> Charlie

>

[Guest guest]

Instinctive reaction: even assuming this guy has no bad intentions --

that he grew up with a healthy version of this kind of humor in his

family, and it's his way of expressing closeness -- the effect of

the behavior on you is unacceptable. It's like trying to start a

relationship with a peanut farmer when you have a life-threatening

peanut allergy. He just isn't safe to be around.

If he is -- consciously or unconsciously -- trying to undermine you,

that's a whole other level of bad. But it seems like even the best-

case interpretation of the behavior is still a major, major

problem.

The question is, what about changing this? Is it something

essential to his personality, or is it just a surface-level habit?

And if he can change it, can he change it without resenting you for

making him change it? And if he can do that, will he?

I once dated a guy who had been raised in a noisy family. Their

physical environment was just always loud -- TV and radio both on,

dog barking, electric kids' cars with sirens, everyone yelling to be

heard over all of the above. He was very calm and professional in

his demeanor at work (where I met him) but when he walked in the

door of his house his voice went to eleven. He didn't even know he

was doing it -- it was just his unconscious way of feeling he was at

home and could, as it were, let his hair down.

Now I, for reasons probably familiar to many KOs, simply cannot deal

with raised voices. If I lived with a loud-voiced person I would

never feel safe. I would never feel at home. And I know -- because

I've tried for years to be less sensitive about this, just in order

to deal with, say, noisy people on the bus -- that I can't change

this about myself. So we broke up. We're still good friends, we

love each other. But we can't be partners.

Your situation may be different, of course. I'm just suggesting

that you should take this seriously. The fact that it's somehow

presented as humor does not make it insignificant.

[Guest guest]

Charlie and All,

What a great response! Isn't it interesting how

similar all our responses are?

I see red flags waving, too. For me, generally, I've

had more problems by ignoring or minimizing the red

flags' existance than by leaving and going in another

direction. Of course, it was always harder than more

emotionally invested I was. (A guy with an emotional

investment! Ladies, take note! )

Thanks, Charlie, for bringing this up and asking for

help, and thanks to all for the responses.

One Non-BP Recovering Man

--- smhtrain2 wrote:

> Hey Charlie,

>

> First - good for you for dealing with this right

> away. I do not

> think you are being hypersensitive. I think you

> will learn alot

> about him from the way he handles this discussion.

> So sooner is

> better than later.

>

> Here is somehing that set off a red flag for me.

> You said his joke-

> style criticisms are getting worse. Since this is

> the beginning of

> a relationship, I am wondering if he is does this

> type of joking

> when he should be on his best behavior (beginning of

> a

> relationship), just how bad might it get when he

> feels real

> comfortable? I personally don't enjoy this kind of

> joking at all,

> especially in a love relationship. And maybe, like

> you, it is

> because I also had a nada who would focus on

> imperfections. (Give me

> the guy who truly realizes what a wonderful person I

> am and

> considers it his good fortune to have me in his

> life!)

>

> I would consider him abusive, if, after you have

> explained yourself

> to him, he minimizes your feelings, or berates you

> for them, makes a

> joke about them, discounts them, or returns to the

> same behavior,

> and feigns oblivion to what he is doing etc.

>

> Good for you in setting this boundary.

>

> Sylvia

>

>

>

> >

> > Hi posters, hope everyone is well. I have to

> confront something

> soon, also along the

> > relationship lines, and it's causing me a great

> deal of grief. I

> suppose it's somewhat off-

> > topic, although my response to it is shaped

> completely by the

> verbal abuse from nada.

> >

> > I've recently started dating someone, and I've

> noticed that his

> little joke-styled criticisms

> > of me have become worse. In fact, he's done it so

> many times now

> that I am starting to go

> > back to the place that nada would put me in when I

> was a child. I

> am wondering how to

> > tell if there is a real problem, or if I am being

> hyper-sensitive

> because of nada, and he's

> > truly not abusive.

> >

> > Here's what was said last night: why did I need a

> scarf, it

> wasn't that cold? Kindof joking.

> > (He is from a very cold country; I am from a very

> warm one, so I

> get COLD.) What time did

> > I get up? (He gets up very early for work; I need

> at least 9

> hours of sleep.) Why did I need

> > so much sleep? (Implication that I 'shouldn't'.)

> And when he

> opened the car door for me,

> > which has always been his idea, he said

> 'jokingly', what, you

> can't even open the door for

> > yourself?

> >

> > This was nada's technique. I was split black, and

> also

> annihilated. Literally every little

> > basic thing I did--how I dressed, how I ate,

> slept, etc--was

> attacked as stupid, ugly, and

> > basically illegitimate. To the extent that what

> he does smacks of

> that, it will re-trigger

> > me, and then I will feel completely ugly around

> him, and the angry

> side of me will come

> > out, too. That is no way to start a love affair.

> >

> > So I am going to talk to him about it tonight and

> try to convey

> this, and see how he

> > responds. I am wondering how to tell if he is

> truly abusive, or

> like nada, or if he was just

> > tired/in a bad mood last night so he was picking

> on me more than

> usual. Can such

> > comments ever be non-toxic, non-intentional? I

> really, really

> don't want to lose this guy;

> > but I'll be da**ned if I am going to enter into

> another nada-style

> relationship after how

> > hard I have worked, and all I have faced!

> >

> > I know I have to talk to him tonight, so any input

> anyone has

> would be very greatly

> > appreciated!

> >

> > Best,

> > Charlie

> >

>

>

>

________________________________________________________________________________\

____

Any questions? Get answers on any topic at www.Answers.yahoo.com. Try it now.

[Guest guest]

Charlie,

If you can't trust your instints on this one, I think you can still

trust yourself - to assess the situation and make the best decision

you can based on what you know at the time. It is always in your

best interests to keep yourself safe, and I know you will do that.

Sylvia

> >

> > Instinctive reaction: even assuming this guy has no bad

intentions --

> > that he grew up with a healthy version of this kind of humor in

his

> > family, and it's his way of expressing closeness -- the effect

of

> > the behavior on you is unacceptable. It's like trying to start

a

> > relationship with a peanut farmer when you have a life-

threatening

> > peanut allergy. He just isn't safe to be around.

> >

> > If he is -- consciously or unconsciously -- trying to undermine

you,

> > that's a whole other level of bad. But it seems like even the

best-

> > case interpretation of the behavior is still a major, major

> > problem.

> >

> > The question is, what about changing this? Is it something

> > essential to his personality, or is it just a surface-level

habit?

> > And if he can change it, can he change it without resenting you

for

> > making him change it? And if he can do that, will he?

> >

> > I once dated a guy who had been raised in a noisy family. Their

> > physical environment was just always loud -- TV and radio both

on,

> > dog barking, electric kids' cars with sirens, everyone yelling

to be

> > heard over all of the above. He was very calm and professional

in

> > his demeanor at work (where I met him) but when he walked in the

> > door of his house his voice went to eleven. He didn't even know

he

> > was doing it -- it was just his unconscious way of feeling he

was at

> > home and could, as it were, let his hair down.

> >

> > Now I, for reasons probably familiar to many KOs, simply cannot

deal

> > with raised voices. If I lived with a loud-voiced person I

would

> > never feel safe. I would never feel at home. And I know --

because

> > I've tried for years to be less sensitive about this, just in

order

> > to deal with, say, noisy people on the bus -- that I can't

change

> > this about myself. So we broke up. We're still good friends,

we

> > love each other. But we can't be partners.

> >

> > Your situation may be different, of course. I'm just suggesting

> > that you should take this seriously. The fact that it's somehow

> > presented as humor does not make it insignificant.

> >

>