Re: post natal insomnia and anxiety

[Guest guest]

Could this be post traumatic stress rather than/instead of post natal

depression? I can¹t remember where I read it, but it is starting to be

accepted that a difficult labour can result in post traumatic stress, which

almost invariably gets diagnosed as PND but needs a different approach.

Post traumatic stress tends to give flashbacks, PND doesn¹t.

Poor lady ­ no sleep for 5 months.

Best wishes to both of you!

Natalia

--

natalia@...

Reply-To: <ukherbal-list >

Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 06:40:35 +0100 (BST)

To: <ukherbal-list >

Subject: post natal insomnia and anxiety

Hi folks,

Can anyone help with experience or ideas for treating a 37 year old lady

who had her first baby 2 weeks ago. About 3 days after the birth she started

to feel anxious and weepy and when I visited her struck me as someone in a

state of 'shock'. She had a long and difficult labour with no sleep for

three days and lots of medication (AB's, oxytocin drip, pethedine) and now

21/2 weeks post partum she has had almost no sleep since the birth. She is

extremely anxious and is having panic attacks. Her anxiety is worse at night

and when she's alone. She feels unwell and unable to cope. She is

breastfeeding and this seems to be going well.

The baby is the result of fertility treatment (she had very high prolactin

levels and they had donor insemination due to previous cancer making husband

infertile) and was desperately wanted for many years.

At day 3 I gave her some Passiflora drops 20- 30 gtt prn max qid as she

was having trouble sleeping. A couple of days later we added some Citrus

flos 20 gtt as above and this seemed tio work quite well and when I visited

her the next day she seemed calmer. We then had a full consultation and I

prescribed a mix of Avena 30, Scutellaria 15, Verbena 20, Withania 70 and

Carduus 15 - 7.5ml cum aq cal tds. Things then deteriorated and I think she

only had one dose of the main mix as she became so anxious she was too

worried to take it in case it made her feel ill. She then contacted the GP

who prescribed a tranquilllizer so she could get a night's sleep and

arranged someopne to look after the baby during the night, but again she was

too anxious to take the medication. Her husbadnd is very supportive but

starting to feel angry and confused. She's also taking fish oils and a

multivit

Any thoughts?

Vitex?

Anyone have experience of treating PND with this severe anxiety?

Thanks

Mandy

[Guest guest]

sorry natalie, that was 2 and a half weeks not 21!

Natalia Kerkham wrote: Could this be post traumatic

stress rather than/instead of post natal

depression? I can¹t remember where I read it, but it is starting to be

accepted that a difficult labour can result in post traumatic stress, which

almost invariably gets diagnosed as PND but needs a different approach.

Post traumatic stress tends to give flashbacks, PND doesn¹t.

Poor lady & shy; no sleep for 5 months.

Best wishes to both of you!

Natalia

--

natalia@...

From: AMANDA DEAN

Reply-To:

Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 06:40:35 +0100 (BST)

To:

Subject: post natal insomnia and anxiety

Hi folks,

Can anyone help with experience or ideas for treating a 37 year old lady

who had her first baby 2 weeks ago. About 3 days after the birth she started

to feel anxious and weepy and when I visited her struck me as someone in a

state of 'shock'. She had a long and difficult labour with no sleep for

three days and lots of medication (AB's, oxytocin drip, pethedine) and now

21/2 weeks post partum she has had almost no sleep since the birth. She is

extremely anxious and is having panic attacks. Her anxiety is worse at night

and when she's alone. She feels unwell and unable to cope. She is

breastfeeding and this seems to be going well.

The baby is the result of fertility treatment (she had very high prolactin

levels and they had donor insemination due to previous cancer making husband

infertile) and was desperately wanted for many years.

At day 3 I gave her some Passiflora drops 20- 30 gtt prn max qid as she

was having trouble sleeping. A couple of days later we added some Citrus

flos 20 gtt as above and this seemed tio work quite well and when I visited

her the next day she seemed calmer. We then had a full consultation and I

prescribed a mix of Avena 30, Scutellaria 15, Verbena 20, Withania 70 and

Carduus 15 - 7.5ml cum aq cal tds. Things then deteriorated and I think she

only had one dose of the main mix as she became so anxious she was too

worried to take it in case it made her feel ill. She then contacted the GP

who prescribed a tranquilllizer so she could get a night's sleep and

arranged someopne to look after the baby during the night, but again she was

too anxious to take the medication. Her husbadnd is very supportive but

starting to feel angry and confused. She's also taking fish oils and a

multivit

Any thoughts?

Vitex?

Anyone have experience of treating PND with this severe anxiety?

Thanks

Mandy

[Guest guest]

Hi , motherwort is good for panick attacks and also after childbirth

to regulate hormones. Also hawthorn is very good. Maybe withania was too

heavy, and small doses of bitters have been known to work for PND. Marilena.

>

>Reply-To: ukherbal-list

>To: ukherbal-list

>Subject: post natal insomnia and anxiety

>Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 06:40:35 +0100 (BST)

>

>Hi folks,

> Can anyone help with experience or ideas for treating a 37 year old lady

>who had her first baby 2 weeks ago. About 3 days after the birth she

>started to feel anxious and weepy and when I visited her struck me as

>someone in a state of 'shock'. She had a long and difficult labour with no

>sleep for three days and lots of medication (AB's, oxytocin drip,

>pethedine) and now 21/2 weeks post partum she has had almost no sleep since

>the birth. She is extremely anxious and is having panic attacks. Her

>anxiety is worse at night and when she's alone. She feels unwell and unable

>to cope. She is breastfeeding and this seems to be going well.

> The baby is the result of fertility treatment (she had very high

>prolactin levels and they had donor insemination due to previous cancer

>making husband infertile) and was desperately wanted for many years.

> At day 3 I gave her some Passiflora drops 20- 30 gtt prn max qid as she

>was having trouble sleeping. A couple of days later we added some Citrus

>flos 20 gtt as above and this seemed tio work quite well and when I visited

>her the next day she seemed calmer. We then had a full consultation and I

>prescribed a mix of Avena 30, Scutellaria 15, Verbena 20, Withania 70 and

>Carduus 15 - 7.5ml cum aq cal tds. Things then deteriorated and I think she

>only had one dose of the main mix as she became so anxious she was too

>worried to take it in case it made her feel ill. She then contacted the GP

>who prescribed a tranquilllizer so she could get a night's sleep and

>arranged someopne to look after the baby during the night, but again she

>was too anxious to take the medication. Her husbadnd is very supportive but

>starting to feel angry and confused. She's also taking fish oils and a

>multivit

> Any thoughts?

> Vitex?

> Anyone have experience of treating PND with this severe anxiety?

> Thanks

> Mandy

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi

Given the history (fertility treatment, difficult labour etc etc) it would

be more surprising if this poor lady DIDN'T have any post natal problems!

Her health visitor should be in there giving her lots of support, but it's

sadly the case that many new parents think their HVs are there to 'police'

their care of the baby, and they consequently don't tell the HV how awful

they're feeling. Could you gently probe to see what sort of relationship

this lady has with her HV, and if it seems okay, perhaps you and HV could do

some collaborative work, with you supplying nice restorative herbs, and HV

supplying shoulder to cry on/advice/practical help? Extreme weepiness 3 days

after birth is normal, persisting for several weeks isn't, but after

difficult birth etc, PND is much more likely. I agree with whoever said

there are elements of PTSD in here, but labels are not necessarily helpful

in such cases, everyone is individual and needs treating so. I think your

prescription sounds good, and probably needs more time to really have

effect, but expert help with post natal stresses is essential here as well.

Together you could probably keep her off the

anti-depressants/tranquillisers. (When I was a health visitor, such a client

would have had at least weekly, if not twice or thrice weekly visits, as

needed, until she had built up her confidence and strength.)

Good luck to you both

Alison (Morton)

>

>Reply-To: ukherbal-list

>To: ukherbal-list

>Subject: post natal insomnia and anxiety

>Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 06:40:35 +0100 (BST)

>

>Hi folks,

> Can anyone help with experience or ideas for treating a 37 year old lady

>who had her first baby 2 weeks ago. About 3 days after the birth she

>started to feel anxious and weepy and when I visited her struck me as

>someone in a state of 'shock'. She had a long and difficult labour with no

>sleep for three days and lots of medication (AB's, oxytocin drip,

>pethedine) and now 21/2 weeks post partum she has had almost no sleep since

>the birth. She is extremely anxious and is having panic attacks. Her

>anxiety is worse at night and when she's alone. She feels unwell and unable

>to cope. She is breastfeeding and this seems to be going well.

> The baby is the result of fertility treatment (she had very high

>prolactin levels and they had donor insemination due to previous cancer

>making husband infertile) and was desperately wanted for many years.

> At day 3 I gave her some Passiflora drops 20- 30 gtt prn max qid as she

>was having trouble sleeping. A couple of days later we added some Citrus

>flos 20 gtt as above and this seemed tio work quite well and when I visited

>her the next day she seemed calmer. We then had a full consultation and I

>prescribed a mix of Avena 30, Scutellaria 15, Verbena 20, Withania 70 and

>Carduus 15 - 7.5ml cum aq cal tds. Things then deteriorated and I think she

>only had one dose of the main mix as she became so anxious she was too

>worried to take it in case it made her feel ill. She then contacted the GP

>who prescribed a tranquilllizer so she could get a night's sleep and

>arranged someopne to look after the baby during the night, but again she

>was too anxious to take the medication. Her husbadnd is very supportive but

>starting to feel angry and confused. She's also taking fish oils and a

>multivit

> Any thoughts?

> Vitex?

> Anyone have experience of treating PND with this severe anxiety?

> Thanks

> Mandy

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi , You also perhaps could help by making sure she is taking good all

round vitamin and mineral suitable for pregnancy and breastfeeding plus

EFA's Breast- feeding especially when birth etc. very traumatic is very

depleting. Also may need iron supplement and encouraging eating plenty. Many

women if anxious and struggling don't realize they are not eating or

drinking properly. They then become dehydrated, tired, disorientated and

this then leads to symptoms which would be difficult to distinguish from

PND, indeed possibly all part and parcel. Insomnia too can be a consequence

of this scenario.

One way to get nutrition up as quickly as possible is to encourage lady to

use juices - buy bottles organic rather than faff about with a juicer.

Up to 4-5 a day may be necessary to help restore nutritional status. This

will also help breast milk.

Carrot and apple equal pasts, should be organic. Green juice would be good

too but may not be possible without juicer.

Also lots of easily digested food, soups etc. because with the anxiety

ability to eat a problem.

Also is she aware of the pattern in the early days for breastfeeding. How

accurate is the information she is getting?

Many mothers think they are failing and panic because baby maybe demand

feeding as often as every 20 minutes or think there is something wrong if

baby won't go 3-4 hours between feeds. A short interval is normal and

necessary to establish proper feeding. Also using one breast at a time.

A lot of this information seems to be freely available in some parts of the

country but not others. Down here in Essex mothers simply don't breast feed

so they have little idea of what to do and the older women don't either. Or

what to expect as normal.

Hope this adds to bank of information for your patient.

Allshorn

RE: post natal insomnia and anxiety

[Guest guest]

Dear Mandy,

Perhaps it would be a good idea to use calming essential oils together

with your formula. Burners in her bedroom and massage. Most definitely a

good massage with warm sesame oil (she can do it herself) before a bath.

Massage the whole body including the head leave it for 10 minutes then

have a nice relaxing warm bath with some calming essential oils. Shatavari

powder is highly recommended (1 teaspoonful in a cup of warm milk in the

morning and evening with a bit of honey.

Good luck

Good luck

Iria Schiller

> Hi folks,

> Can anyone help with experience or ideas for treating a 37 year old

> lady who had her first baby 2 weeks ago. About 3 days after the birth

> she started to feel anxious and weepy and when I visited her struck me

> as someone in a state of 'shock'. She had a long and difficult labour

> with no sleep for three days and lots of medication (AB's, oxytocin

> drip, pethedine) and now 21/2 weeks post partum she has had almost no

> sleep since the birth. She is extremely anxious and is having panic

> attacks. Her anxiety is worse at night and when she's alone. She feels

> unwell and unable to cope. She is breastfeeding and this seems to be

> going well.

> The baby is the result of fertility treatment (she had very high

> prolactin levels and they had donor insemination due to previous cancer

> making husband infertile) and was desperately wanted for many years.

> At day 3 I gave her some Passiflora drops 20- 30 gtt prn max qid as she

> was having trouble sleeping. A couple of days later we added some

> Citrus flos 20 gtt as above and this seemed tio work quite well and

> when I visited her the next day she seemed calmer. We then had a full

> consultation and I prescribed a mix of Avena 30, Scutellaria 15,

> Verbena 20, Withania 70 and Carduus 15 - 7.5ml cum aq cal tds. Things

> then deteriorated and I think she only had one dose of the main mix as

> she became so anxious she was too worried to take it in case it made

> her feel ill. She then contacted the GP who prescribed a tranquilllizer

> so she could get a night's sleep and arranged someopne to look after

> the baby during the night, but again she was too anxious to take the

> medication. Her husbadnd is very supportive but starting to feel angry

> and confused. She's also taking fish oils and a multivit

> Any thoughts?

> Vitex?

> Anyone have experience of treating PND with this severe anxiety?

> Thanks

> Mandy

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

What about Shatavari tincture - would that do ?_ I have some. The massage idea

is good - simple but effective I'll try suggesting it. Thanks

iria@... wrote: Dear Mandy,

Perhaps it would be a good idea to use calming essential oils together

with your formula. Burners in her bedroom and massage. Most definitely a

good massage with warm sesame oil (she can do it herself) before a bath.

Massage the whole body including the head leave it for 10 minutes then

have a nice relaxing warm bath with some calming essential oils. Shatavari

powder is highly recommended (1 teaspoonful in a cup of warm milk in the

morning and evening with a bit of honey.

Good luck

Good luck

Iria Schiller

> Hi folks,

> Can anyone help with experience or ideas for treating a 37 year old

> lady who had her first baby 2 weeks ago. About 3 days after the birth

> she started to feel anxious and weepy and when I visited her struck me

> as someone in a state of 'shock'. She had a long and difficult labour

> with no sleep for three days and lots of medication (AB's, oxytocin

> drip, pethedine) and now 21/2 weeks post partum she has had almost no

> sleep since the birth. She is extremely anxious and is having panic

> attacks. Her anxiety is worse at night and when she's alone. She feels

> unwell and unable to cope. She is breastfeeding and this seems to be

> going well.

> The baby is the result of fertility treatment (she had very high

> prolactin levels and they had donor insemination due to previous cancer

> making husband infertile) and was desperately wanted for many years.

> At day 3 I gave her some Passiflora drops 20- 30 gtt prn max qid as she

> was having trouble sleeping. A couple of days later we added some

> Citrus flos 20 gtt as above and this seemed tio work quite well and

> when I visited her the next day she seemed calmer. We then had a full

> consultation and I prescribed a mix of Avena 30, Scutellaria 15,

> Verbena 20, Withania 70 and Carduus 15 - 7.5ml cum aq cal tds. Things

> then deteriorated and I think she only had one dose of the main mix as

> she became so anxious she was too worried to take it in case it made

> her feel ill. She then contacted the GP who prescribed a tranquilllizer

> so she could get a night's sleep and arranged someopne to look after

> the baby during the night, but again she was too anxious to take the

> medication. Her husbadnd is very supportive but starting to feel angry

> and confused. She's also taking fish oils and a multivit

> Any thoughts?

> Vitex?

> Anyone have experience of treating PND with this severe anxiety?

> Thanks

> Mandy

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

The tincture should be fine, however not as effective. Shatavary powder is

very nourishing and is a great VATA pacyfing herb. Her symptoms seem to be

extreme VATA and shatavary powder is the Queen of herbs for that. Apart

from that I would use other warming and nourishing herbs.

What about Shatavari tincture - would that do ?_ I have some. The

> massage idea is good - simple but effective I'll try suggesting it.

> Thanks

>

> iria@... wrote: Dear Mandy,

>

> Perhaps it would be a good idea to use calming essential oils together

> with your formula. Burners in her bedroom and massage. Most definitely a

> good massage with warm sesame oil (she can do it herself) before a bath.

> Massage the whole body including the head leave it for 10 minutes then

> have a nice relaxing warm bath with some calming essential oils.

> Shatavari

> powder is highly recommended (1 teaspoonful in a cup of warm milk in the

> morning and evening with a bit of honey.

>

> Good luck

>

> Good luck

>

> Iria Schiller

>

> > Hi folks,

> > Can anyone help with experience or ideas for treating a 37 year old

> > lady who had her first baby 2 weeks ago. About 3 days after the birth

> > she started to feel anxious and weepy and when I visited her struck me

> > as someone in a state of 'shock'. She had a long and difficult labour

> > with no sleep for three days and lots of medication (AB's, oxytocin

> > drip, pethedine) and now 21/2 weeks post partum she has had almost no

> > sleep since the birth. She is extremely anxious and is having panic

> > attacks. Her anxiety is worse at night and when she's alone. She feels

> > unwell and unable to cope. She is breastfeeding and this seems to be

> > going well.

> > The baby is the result of fertility treatment (she had very high

> > prolactin levels and they had donor insemination due to previous cancer

> > making husband infertile) and was desperately wanted for many years.

> > At day 3 I gave her some Passiflora drops 20- 30 gtt prn max qid as she

> > was having trouble sleeping. A couple of days later we added some

> > Citrus flos 20 gtt as above and this seemed tio work quite well and

> > when I visited her the next day she seemed calmer. We then had a full

> > consultation and I prescribed a mix of Avena 30, Scutellaria 15,

> > Verbena 20, Withania 70 and Carduus 15 - 7.5ml cum aq cal tds. Things

> > then deteriorated and I think she only had one dose of the main mix as

> > she became so anxious she was too worried to take it in case it made

> > her feel ill. She then contacted the GP who prescribed a tranquilllizer

> > so she could get a night's sleep and arranged someopne to look after

> > the baby during the night, but again she was too anxious to take the

> > medication. Her husbadnd is very supportive but starting to feel angry

> > and confused. She's also taking fish oils and a multivit

> > Any thoughts?

> > Vitex?

> > Anyone have experience of treating PND with this severe anxiety?

> > Thanks

> > Mandy

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Hello all,

I've treated post-natal depression with herbs, hypnotherapy and

neuro-linguistic programming (NLP). This wasn't in quite the same case as

now, being much later after the birth, and not involving so much anxiety.

With the lady in question, the NLP would be extremely useful for finding out

the reasons behind not wanting to take the medicine, and addressing them -

this would then enable your prescription to work its magic. As herbalists,

our hands can be tied if patients leave the medicine in the bottle! I'm

sure you'll find ways of talking this over with the lady,

Hayley x

RE: post natal insomnia and anxiety

>

>

>

>

> List Owner: Graham White, MNIMH

>