Re: Learned Helplessness and ACT

[Guest guest]

HiI'm not 100% sure what you really mean, perhaps you can say a little more?Take care xSubject: Learned Helplessness and ACTTo: ACT_for_the_Public Date: Sunday, 9 January, 2011, 18:52

One of the problems with learned helplessness as I see it, is that you don't recognize it in yourself.

How can ACT help with this?

[Guest guest]

Hi g,

My guess is that " learned helplessness " in the ACT model would be seen as fusion

with a particular set of recurrent self-defeating thoughts (like " there's

nothing I can do about this " ). And as such, becoming aware of the thoughts as

thoughts and defusing them with the usual ACT methods (supported by the rest of

the hexaflex) would be helpful.

As says, an example would be really helpful.

best,

bb

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> One of the problems with learned helplessness as I see it, is that you don't

recognize it in yourself.

> How can ACT help with this?

>

[Guest guest]

That's one of the great things about our brains (and minds). We can become aware of what we were previously unaware of! Animals (non-human variety) don't have that reasoning capability; thus, when a rat in an experiment learns to associate getting painful shocks with eating yummy food, they will refuse to eat the food even when the shocks are withdrawn, to the point of starvation. The great thing about ACT is that it helps us to become aware of what is going on in our minds--without having to buy into the content of our thoughts and feelings. We can know when we are being fooled by "learned helplessness" and turn the supposed helplessness into actions that will prevent emotional (social, etc.) starvation.

Helena

Re: Learned Helplessness and ACT

Hi and bb...thanks for replying.I found this explanation of learned helplessness on the web. When a person is suffering from learned helplessness, he or she is not even aware of his or her state. When confronted with a situation which requires an act on the part of an individual, and this individual does not act accordingly, this is not because of a feeling of helplessness. It is because he even cannot think that he should act or he does not know that he can act.I agree that awareness is the starting point. I am having difficulty seeing how ACT will help other than with the residual anxiety and depression. I'm probably over thinking this (as usual). g> >> > One of the problems with learned helplessness as I see it, is that you don't recognize it in yourself.> > How can ACT help with this?> >>

[Guest guest]

g,I thought this was what you were asking.  I read Seligman's book several years ago.  I certainly have a lot of learned helplessness.   How I know?  You are right, at time I don't really know this is what is going on.  I feel helpless about something and don't think it's worth doing anything about it - either I'm too incompetent to act on it or if I do the result will still be negative.   But at times I have tried doing something or the circumstances forced me to have to act and I end up very surprised that I was 1) able to act and 2) it was effective.

Growing up, the frequent criticism I got from parents and teachers and peers and family including extended family was quite sever.  I was labeled slow, stupid, incompetent, lazy, bad.  In some areas more than others.  And now as adult, I am much worse at learned helplessness in certain areas or about certain things.

So, I'm not sure what to suggest about using ACT.  I am very interested in what others have to say.Thanks,

 

Hi and bb...thanks for replying.

I found this explanation of learned helplessness on the web. When a person is suffering from learned helplessness, he or she is not even aware of his or her state. When confronted with a situation which requires an act on the part of an individual, and this individual does not act accordingly, this is not because of a feeling of helplessness. It is because he even cannot think that he should act or he does not know that he can act.

I agree that awareness is the starting point. I am having difficulty seeing how ACT will help other than with the residual anxiety and depression. I'm probably over thinking this (as usual).

g

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[Guest guest]

Well said, Helena! Sometimes it seems (to me) that the mind gets a lot of

criticism from ACT. But this example shows what an amazingly useful faculty it

can be too.

bb

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[Guest guest]

I was just re-listening to an interview of on iTunes U on way to work this morning.  He started the interview talking about how there are some things that humans struggle with that other animals like cats don't.  So it works both ways. 

I want to say something here since this tread is titled Learned Helplessness.  I was quite disturbed and angered when I read Marin Seligman's book called Learned Helplessness.  He claims that people who blame things that go wrong on things outside of themselves, even if it's their fault, perform better.   " The sun got in my eyes " .  " You distracted me " .  They didn't get the report to me on time " .  I don't like this and don't like working with people like this.  I worked with someone like this for the last few years.  He just transfered to another group at end of December.  I'm very happy about that.  I don't care to work around people like this at all.  When it's convenient these people blame me for things they do wrong.

Seligman seems sort of delighted by all this.  It comes to values it what it is.  I value taking responsibility for my actions and will up front admit my mistakes.  But according to Seligman and it appears to his delight, I will lose more often and the people who don't take responsibility win.  I have seldom been much disturbed by what I read in a psychology book, but this book really angered me.

Seligman went on to found positive psychology.  There may be some good things about positive psychology, but more than most any other psychology it buys into and tries to sell the shallow feel good stuff that is so prevalent in our society.

So there are some good things about the concept of Learned Helplessness and that has been helpful to me.  But I reject most of everything else that Seligman did and wrote about.I'm attracted to ACT because it deals with living a significant value based life and is not about blaming others for your faults.

 

Well said, Helena! Sometimes it seems (to me) that the mind gets a lot of criticism from ACT. But this example shows what an amazingly useful faculty it can be too.

bb

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[Guest guest]

The problem with blaming others -- even when it is their fault -- is that doing so is unlikely to help you in the short or long term. Real solutions to our problems require a different approach.Regards,Detlef> > > > >> > > > > One of the problems with learned helplessness as I see it, is that> > you don't recognize it in yourself.> > > > > How can ACT help with this?> > > > >> > > >> > >> >> > > >>

[Guest guest]

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[Guest guest]

Yes!  Brave New World!  I never put that together, but yes it IS a bit like Brave New World.

 

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[Guest guest]

Oh, and absolutely, our brains are such awesome things.  And yes we should point out and stand up for the good stuff our amazing brains can do.  And most ACT material that I have read does give some mention of this but of course in the context of ACT the focus is more on the " tricky aspects " of the mind.

So thanks for pointing out one way our brains do good, Helena, and for standing up for it, bb.

 

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[Guest guest]

Unless you're the blamee's boss and want to hold him/her accountable. Still, sugar attracts more flies than vinegar. I wish my boss realized that. She has blamed me for several things in the past 1-1/2 years that were NOT my fault, and when I told her the situation (via email), she did not respond--not even an apology! Nor do I ever get an acknowledgement when I go "above and beyond" to accomplish a task on time or exceptionally well. Oh well.......good thing I like her anyway!

Sorry; didn't mean to go off on a minor rant there!Helena

Re: Learned Helplessness and ACT

The problem with blaming others -- even when it is their fault -- is that doing so is unlikely to help you in the short or long term. Real solutions to our problems require a different approach.Regards,Detlef> > > > >> > > > > One of the problems with learned helplessness as I see it, is that> > you don't recognize it in yourself.> > > > > How can ACT help with this?> > > > >> > > >> > >> >> > > >>

[Guest guest]

So, g, did we answer your question?  I'll refrain from any more rants for a while.

 

Unless you're the blamee's boss and want to hold him/her accountable.  Still, sugar attracts more flies than vinegar.  I wish my boss realized that.  She has blamed me for several things in the past 1-1/2 years that were NOT my fault, and when I told her the situation (via email), she did not respond--not even an apology!  Nor do I ever get an acknowledgement when I go " above and beyond " to accomplish a task on time or exceptionally well.  Oh well.......good thing I like her anyway!

 

Sorry; didn't mean to go off on a minor rant there!Helena

 

 

Re: Learned Helplessness and ACT

 

The problem with blaming others -- even when it is their fault -- is that doing so is unlikely to help you in the short or long term. Real solutions to our problems require a different approach.

Regards,Detlef> > > > >> > > > > One of the problems with learned helplessness as I see it, is that> > you don't recognize it in yourself.> > > > > How can ACT help with this?

> > > > >> > > >> > >> >> > > >>

[Guest guest]

Me, too! But , I thought your "rant" was helpful.

Helena

Re: Learned Helplessness and ACT

The problem with blaming others -- even when it is their fault -- is that doing so is unlikely to help you in the short or long term. Real solutions to our problems require a different approach.Regards,Detlef> > > > >> > > > > One of the problems with learned helplessness as I see it, is that> > you don't recognize it in yourself.> > > > > How can ACT help with this?> > > > >> > > >> > >> >> > > >>

[Guest guest]

Well I guess I can put out here what I think are ways to apply ACT to discerning when you are in a learned helpless mode at the time or in real time.I think to start off, when you are in a learned helpless state, you are feeling hopeless or helpless about something.  Some kind of checking in with your emotions periodically is required.  Then when you detect the hopeless emotion, you can bring focus to your thoughts and emotions in this present moment and use defusion on the thoughts and acceptance on the emotions.  I think acceptance comes in the checking in with your emotions too because if you don't allow yourself to feel hopeless - that is if your natural reaction is try to avoid that feeling - then you may end up never detecting the hopeless emotion and when you are in learned helpless mode. 

And then when you do detect the hopeless or helpless emotions, acceptance is still very important as you focus on this emotion and the thoughts associciated with this emotions.  If you have some resistance to this emotion and the thoughts, then it will make the defusion from thoughts much harder.

Doing this requires some kind of stepping back from yourself to watch and monitor your emotions and thoughts etc.  This is what I think the self as context part is about.Then of course it's important to find your values and get your feet moving in your value direction.

So, g, did we answer your question?  I'll refrain from any more rants for a while.

 

Unless you're the blamee's boss and want to hold him/her accountable.  Still, sugar attracts more flies than vinegar.  I wish my boss realized that.  She has blamed me for several things in the past 1-1/2 years that were NOT my fault, and when I told her the situation (via email), she did not respond--not even an apology!  Nor do I ever get an acknowledgement when I go " above and beyond " to accomplish a task on time or exceptionally well.  Oh well.......good thing I like her anyway!

 

Sorry; didn't mean to go off on a minor rant there!Helena

 

 

Re: Learned Helplessness and ACT

 

The problem with blaming others -- even when it is their fault -- is that doing so is unlikely to help you in the short or long term. Real solutions to our problems require a different approach.

Regards,Detlef> > > > >> > > > > One of the problems with learned helplessness as I see it, is that> > you don't recognize it in yourself.> > > > > How can ACT help with this?

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[Guest guest]

Oh, I'm glad it was helpful.  But once I start ranting, I sometimes find it hard to stop.  Then my mind starts tossing out other thoughts to rant about and I guess I fuse with all these thoughts.OK, I'm having a serious problem at work I'll tell you all about later.

 

Me, too!  But , I thought your " rant " was helpful.

 

Helena

Re: Learned Helplessness and ACT 

The problem with blaming others -- even when it is their fault -- is that doing so is unlikely to help you in the short or long term. Real solutions to our problems require a different approach.

Regards,Detlef> > > > >> > > > > One of the problems with learned helplessness as I see it, is that> > you don't recognize it in yourself.> > > > > How can ACT help with this?

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[Guest guest]

Hi g,

I should clarify that I think the post about not blaming other people did not directly pertain to your initial question so may not have been helpful in that regard; what I meant is that it was helpful to me because I was thinking of reading that book, so I appreciated 's take on it. I'm sorry if we got off track from your question with that side trip, but I don't think anyone meant to imply that you were blaming other people.

Here's what I think: Although someone may not realize that they are reacting to situations in a helpless kind of way, they can become aware of that (by self reflection, therapy, etc.), but I'm not sure that direct awareness is even necessary to undo that learning--practicing ACT may be enough. Learned helplessness would probably elicit a lot of anxiety or depression, or both, and we know how ACT teaches us to deal with those devils by acceptance/defusion/expansion, etc., and moving toward our values. Identifying your values and moving toward them does not really allow room for a helpless response to anything, whether you are aware that you have learned the helpless response or not. That's my take on it anyway, for what it's worth.

Helena

Re: Learned Helplessness and ACT

This is not about blaming other people. Just for the record, that is the last thing that I do. Just the opposite - in spite of the abuse in my life, I feel that much of it was my fault, and is up to only me to deal with. My understanding is that learned helplessness is about a learned behavior that leads someone to basically give up. It is a behavior that one doesn't even realize they have. > >> > > > > >> >> > > > > > One of the problems with learned helplessness as I see it, is> >> that> >> > > you don't recognize it in yourself.> >> > > > > > How can ACT help with this?> >> > > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >>> >> > > >>

[Guest guest]

Hi g,

I hope you've read my more recent post in which I apologized for getting off track. I did attempt to give an appropriate response ... hope it was helpful. It was certainly an interesting question and perhaps the experts could jump in if you still have questions.

Helena

Re: Learned Helplessness and ACT

I'm sorry Helena, but what does this have to do with my question? Maybe it is an unrelated "sidebar"...that's what I am guessing. > > > > > > > > > > > > One of the problems with learned helplessness as I see it, is that > > > you don't recognize it in yourself. > > > > > > How can ACT help with this? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>

[Guest guest]

g,I think we have miscommunicated some.  I sort of went off taking about a particular book that initiated this concept learned helplessness.  This book is by Seligman and is called Learned Helplessness.  If you are interested in this, then I think you should get this book and read it.  He explains how he came upon this concept by chance and the research he has done etc. and so you might find it interesting and insightful.

Anyway I think I made some comments about this particular book and unless others have read it, they won't really understand my remarks.  But in this book, it really turns out that when things go wrong or a team loses a game or there is some kind of failure, an optimistic person will much more likely give some reason or excuse for it.  They will say things like " the other team got a lucky break and a lot of cheap hits " - referring to a optimistic baseball team.  Or " I didn't receive the data in time from the other guys to do a good job on the report " .  This kind of thing.  They don't blame themselves.  They point out other circumstances or put blame on other people.

A pessimistic person will blame himself first even if not his fault.  A learned helplessness person will feel that much of everything is his fault.So, what I'm saying here is that people who are optimistic and NON-learned-helpless will be more likely to put blame on something else, the situation or someone else.  A learned helpless person will blame himself for even things that are not his fault.

So what you wrote here seems to indicate you fall into the learned helpless bin.Go get Seligman's book and read it.  I was critizing one small part of it.  Overall it is good book to read on this subject.  Now, it is a bit more part of the old CBT tradition and so some things about it are a bit counter to ACT.  He talks about changing your life my changing your mind.  So read that to get better idea of this concept, learned helplessness and then come back here for ACT alternatives to what Seligman recommends for treatment.

 

This is not about blaming other people. Just for the record, that is the last thing that I do. Just the opposite - in spite of the abuse in my life, I feel that much of it was my fault, and is up to only me to deal with. My understanding is that learned helplessness is about a learned behavior that leads someone to basically give up. It is a behavior that one doesn't even realize they have.

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[Guest guest]

Thanks for clarifying this . I'll admit I was getting a bit lost with this thread, before your helpful post! x

This is not about blaming other people. Just for the record, that is the last thing that I do. Just the opposite - in spite of the abuse in my life, I feel that much of it was my fault, and is up to only me to deal with. My understanding is that learned helplessness is about a learned behavior that leads someone to basically give up. It is a behavior that one doesn't even realize they have.

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[Guest guest]

,Yeah, sorry about the confusion.  Also I'd like to add that in Seligman's book he has test for pessimism vs. optimism and even breaks it down into I think 4 different kinds.  For example in one kind, performance in one area may affect performance in other areas for some pessimist people while not doing so for others.  So, a baseball player in a batting slump may let that affect his fielding if he has this kind of pessimism and otherwise not affect it. 

Another kind is one that affects you over time.  A pessimist like this will experience a setback of some kind and then in her mind think this will always happen no matter what she does.  Eeyore of Winnie-the-Pooh suffered from this.

Anyway, people concerned that they may have been conditioned in certain ways to feel helpless or hopeless should consult with Seligman's book.

 

Thanks for clarifying this .  I'll admit I was getting a bit lost with this thread, before your helpful post!

x

 

This is not about blaming other people. Just for the record, that is the last thing that I do. Just the opposite - in spite of the abuse in my life, I feel that much of it was my fault, and is up to only me to deal with. My understanding is that learned helplessness is about a learned behavior that leads someone to basically give up. It is a behavior that one doesn't even realize they have.

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[Guest guest]

Is there anything in ACT published that addresses this kind of thing - learned helplessness or pessimism?  Perhaps The Confidence Gap by Russ .  That book hasn't been released in North America yet.  But I have found places online to buy it - shipping is about same price as book.  I think August is the scheduled release for this book in North America.

 

,Yeah, sorry about the confusion.  Also I'd like to add that in Seligman's book he has test for pessimism vs. optimism and even breaks it down into I think 4 different kinds.  For example in one kind, performance in one area may affect performance in other areas for some pessimist people while not doing so for others.  So, a baseball player in a batting slump may let that affect his fielding if he has this kind of pessimism and otherwise not affect it. 

Another kind is one that affects you over time.  A pessimist like this will experience a setback of some kind and then in her mind think this will always happen no matter what she does.  Eeyore of Winnie-the-Pooh suffered from this.

Anyway, people concerned that they may have been conditioned in certain ways to feel helpless or hopeless should consult with Seligman's book.

 

Thanks for clarifying this .  I'll admit I was getting a bit lost with this thread, before your helpful post!

x

 

This is not about blaming other people. Just for the record, that is the last thing that I do. Just the opposite - in spite of the abuse in my life, I feel that much of it was my fault, and is up to only me to deal with. My understanding is that learned helplessness is about a learned behavior that leads someone to basically give up. It is a behavior that one doesn't even realize they have.

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[Guest guest]

As I recall from reading some of Seligman's other work, in order to produce

learned helplessness, an adverse situation or emotional state must be viewed as

ALL 3 of the following: personal, pervasive and permanent.

Therefore, " who's responsible for this adversity? " (answer: Me, and me alone) is

just one side of the attribution triangle. The other two are " how long will it

last? " (answer: forever and ever) and " what else does it adversely affect? "

(answer:absolutely everything; nothing in my life will be spared). That means

you can admit a mature level of responsibility for situations where the fault

WAS yours but if you don't believe the bad results that follow from the

situation are permanent and all-pervasive, you won't succumb to learned

helplessness.

This Wikipedia entry says basically the same thing:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness

Personally, I've found that disputing the " 3 P's " (or even just one or two of

them) is a useful exercise for breaking the momentum of a negative thought

pattern. And hey, I like ACT but will do anything that helps.

Jim

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[Guest guest]

What you say, Jim, makes sense.  I read several of Seligman's works but don't recall what you are saying here but it does make sense.  I was going by just memory of reading Learned Helplessness and remember there was a test and it had I think 4 subscores - so a person might score high on the pervasive helplessness portion and maybe not as high on another kind of helplessness.  But, anyway I'll look at the wikipedia article now.

 

As I recall from reading some of Seligman's other work, in order to produce learned helplessness, an adverse situation or emotional state must be viewed as ALL 3 of the following: personal, pervasive and permanent.

Therefore, " who's responsible for this adversity? " (answer: Me, and me alone) is just one side of the attribution triangle. The other two are " how long will it last? " (answer: forever and ever) and " what else does it adversely affect? " (answer:absolutely everything; nothing in my life will be spared). That means you can admit a mature level of responsibility for situations where the fault WAS yours but if you don't believe the bad results that follow from the situation are permanent and all-pervasive, you won't succumb to learned helplessness.

This Wikipedia entry says basically the same thing:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness

Personally, I've found that disputing the " 3 P's " (or even just one or two of them) is a useful exercise for breaking the momentum of a negative thought pattern. And hey, I like ACT but will do anything that helps.

Jim

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[Guest guest]

g,Great.  I remember one story Seligman gives in the book.  A grad student was expelled from her graduate program.  But she was basically innocent.  I don't remember the details.  But, she simply just took the blame and left the school quietly and never stood up and fought for herself.  I thought of that when I read your email.

 

Hi -

Thanks for clarifying. Very interesting stuff. I am taking your suggestion and getting a copy of Seligman's book.

g

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[Guest guest]

This discussion reminds me of how I

have been being with « sad and lonely »; maybe you'll

find enough parallels in it for showing yet another way of being with

« learned helplesness ».

I refer below the the « passengers

in the bus » metaphor, one of my favorites.

Because I'm not sure if this is in

« Get out of your mind ...» or 'The Happiness Trap »,

here's a link where you'll find more:

http://www.goodmedicine.org.uk/stressedtozest/2009/01/bus-driver-metaphor

I have been « openly » sad

and lonely for large parts of my childhood, and later on it was still

there, but I had « better ways » of hiding it and making

up for it: good student, good sportsman, good worker, you get the

idea. But then also easily devastated (and often very angry

afterwards) when other people didn't see me as so good and let me

know it.

I tried many different therapeutic ways

to « overcome it », and much of it has been about

building better façades... I can see that now, I didn't at the

time...

Then came ACT, and I more clearly began

to see « sad and lonely » as a « part of me »

instead of keeping with more official psychological labels that it

has been given. « Part of me, not all of me », « the

sad and lonely boy in me ».

I hugged it first, then put a loving

hand on my upper chest (which seemed to be his « home »),

in the way Russ has written about it, and other things that

seemed to be « being a good father for him ». This became

a good and regular practice for me.

I also listened a lot to Neil Young...

(BTW, I found it much easier to be a

good and caring father to my real son than to this « sad and

lonely boy »).

And since then I play with the « bus

and it's passengers » metaphor.

As « the driver in the bus »,

I pick him (« sad and lonely ») up for school, welcome

him in my bus with a gentle smile, and invite him to sit on the first

chair on the right, behind me. And whenever I stop before a

traffic-light, I turn to look at him. Often he doesn't seem to

notice, he's slumped in his chair. But I do think he notices

something... Anyway, no pushing, no cheering him up... Just being

showing him for a second that I care for him. When arrived at school,

it is nothing out of the ordinary to get out of the chair and say bye

and good luck to the kids that get out, every one at the time. This,

the « sad and lonely » boy can better see, and take in

for a second.

And then I go on with my bus, heading

to other destinations for the day, my heart at times a bit heavy, but

especially caring, and imagining that at times it is sending some

light to the boy, as he sits in his class, slumped most of the time.

And I like to imagine that he remembers those moments that our eyes

met, and that he saw my smile for him. I think he does.

And so I wonder: would it be helpful

for you to do something similar to « learned helplesness »

as a passenger in your bus?

Take care,

Maarten