Guest guest Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 I agree with Robyn and Sabine. I was finding it a very interesting and useful discussion - to have it cut short in this way is just bizarre! > > I am just utterly appalled. And I really thought nothing could shock me any longer in the medical herbalist field...I don't have a website, and there are plenty of herbalists who don't belong to professional organisations, still nobody else (afaik) was ever struck off this list. > > Sorry, I cannot actually engage with this right now - it is just unbelievable. And no outrage, business as usual, apart from one " Aw, that sucks " . Standing up in this list against the dominant view is a bit like flinging yourself headfirst into a lion's den. Sorry, Robyn, I don't know whether I will take on the army all by myself, have done it for too often, and feel it's a bit of a waste of time at the moment. > > Anyway, will reach for some stress herbs... > > Disillusioned > Sabine > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 > I am just utterly appalled. And I really thought nothing could shock me any > longer in the medical herbalist field...I don't have a website, and there > are plenty of herbalists who don't belong to professional organisations, > still nobody else (afaik) was ever struck off this list. Somebody who honestly seems to think that E. Ernst is a valid scientist, and who dismisses all traditional uses of herbs out of hand, and who seems to think that herbal formulas don't have a leg to stand on ... .... no, I can't wrap my head around somebody like that actually seeing clients as a herbalist. I do believe that she was subscribed for 6 days only. If she supplies proof that yep, she does in fact practise, she'll be resubscribed. If so, you all can continue the discussion. Best, Henriette -- Henriette Kress, AHG Helsinki, Finland Henriette's herbal homepage: http://www.henriettesherbal.com Uusi kirja: http://www.henriettesherbal.com/fi/kayt-laak.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 Really? I mean i have no problem with a robust discussion & i find it very interesting (sometimes illuminating) to have to articulate my own views but...... I found the everything not science is rubbish including you & all your herbs attitude interestingly angry and nastily ( & not interestingly) aggressive. It didn't strike me as a discussion whose purpose was enquiry but one designed to point out all the flaws in everyone else. I'm very pleased that no one has ever before been pushed off this list and i await with interest developments. I'm sure many of us were asking the question: was this person really a qualified herbalist (but were too polite to ask!)? Will we ever find out? Yours with somewhat thwarted curiosity Nathalie > > > > I am just utterly appalled. And I really thought nothing could shock me any longer in the medical herbalist field...I don't have a website, and there are plenty of herbalists who don't belong to professional organisations, still nobody else (afaik) was ever struck off this list. > > > > Sorry, I cannot actually engage with this right now - it is just unbelievable. And no outrage, business as usual, apart from one " Aw, that sucks " . Standing up in this list against the dominant view is a bit like flinging yourself headfirst into a lion's den. Sorry, Robyn, I don't know whether I will take on the army all by myself, have done it for too often, and feel it's a bit of a waste of time at the moment. > > > > Anyway, will reach for some stress herbs... > > > > Disillusioned > > Sabine > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 Hi Henriette, you wrote: > If she supplies proof that yep, she does in fact practise, she'll be > resubscribed. If so, you all can continue the discussion. I was not aware that proof of practice was a requirement for joining this list (it's not in the list rules I have). This new rule will definitely lead to further expulsions from the list, and not only of final year students. Not going to happen, I know. This is not about qualifications and practice, but about ideology and toeing the line, and about being a " real herbalist " . I'll better be careful what I say. Sorry folks, I'm sickened, and have to take a break from this discussion, Regards, Sabine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 A couple of herbalists relentlessly presenting the uncompromising views that Mel holds, plus a couple of committee members with similar views, equals a rather uncertain future post SR for those of us who like to practice in the way that the majority of contributors to current discussions seem to prefer. Best regards, Tim. From: natlychid2000 Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2011 1:14 PM To: ukherbal-list Subject: Re: this list Really? I mean i have no problem with a robust discussion & i find it very interesting (sometimes illuminating) to have to articulate my own views but...... I found the everything not science is rubbish including you & all your herbs attitude interestingly angry and nastily ( & not interestingly) aggressive. It didn't strike me as a discussion whose purpose was enquiry but one designed to point out all the flaws in everyone else. I'm very pleased that no one has ever before been pushed off this list and i await with interest developments. I'm sure many of us were asking the question: was this person really a qualified herbalist (but were too polite to ask!)? Will we ever find out? Yours with somewhat thwarted curiosity Nathalie > > > > I am just utterly appalled. And I really thought nothing could shock me any longer in the medical herbalist field...I don't have a website, and there are plenty of herbalists who don't belong to professional organisations, still nobody else (afaik) was ever struck off this list. > > > > Sorry, I cannot actually engage with this right now - it is just unbelievable. And no outrage, business as usual, apart from one " Aw, that sucks " . Standing up in this list against the dominant view is a bit like flinging yourself headfirst into a lion's den. Sorry, Robyn, I don't know whether I will take on the army all by myself, have done it for too often, and feel it's a bit of a waste of time at the moment. > > > > Anyway, will reach for some stress herbs... > > > > Disillusioned > > Sabine > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 i agree, I know I was Nathalie!!  Lynda ________________________________ To: ukherbal-list Sent: Thu, 24 March, 2011 13:14:24 Subject: Re: this list  Really? I mean i have no problem with a robust discussion & i find it very interesting (sometimes illuminating) to have to articulate my own views but...... I found the everything not science is rubbish including you & all your herbs attitude interestingly angry and nastily ( & not interestingly) aggressive. It didn't strike me as a discussion whose purpose was enquiry but one designed to point out all the flaws in everyone else. I'm very pleased that no one has ever before been pushed off this list and i await with interest developments. I'm sure many of us were asking the question: was this person really a qualified herbalist (but were too polite to ask!)? Will we ever find out? Yours with somewhat thwarted curiosity Nathalie > > > > I am just utterly appalled. And I really thought nothing could shock me any >longer in the medical herbalist field...I don't have a website, and there are >plenty of herbalists who don't belong to professional organisations, still >nobody else (afaik) was ever struck off this list. > > > > > Sorry, I cannot actually engage with this right now - it is just >unbelievable. And no outrage, business as usual, apart from one " Aw, that >sucks " . Standing up in this list against the dominant view is a bit like >flinging yourself headfirst into a lion's den. Sorry, Robyn, I don't know >whether I will take on the army all by myself, have done it for too often, and >feel it's a bit of a waste of time at the moment. > > > > > Anyway, will reach for some stress herbs... > > > > Disillusioned > > Sabine > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 Absolutely true, Tim. Which is one reason for ensuring that we keep remembering such voices are out there. Robyn > > > A couple of herbalists relentlessly presenting the uncompromising views > that Mel holds, plus a couple of committee members with similar views, > equals a rather uncertain future post SR for those of us who like to > practice in the way that the majority of contributors to current discussions > seem to prefer. > > Best regards, > Tim. > > From: natlychid2000 > Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2011 1:14 PM > To: ukherbal-list > Subject: Re: this list > > > Really? > I mean i have no problem with a robust discussion & i find it very > interesting (sometimes illuminating) to have to articulate my own views > but...... > I found the everything not science is rubbish including you & all your > herbs attitude interestingly angry and nastily ( & not interestingly) > aggressive. > It didn't strike me as a discussion whose purpose was enquiry but one > designed to point out all the flaws in everyone else. > > I'm very pleased that no one has ever before been pushed off this list and > i await with interest developments. I'm sure many of us were asking the > question: was this person really a qualified herbalist (but were too polite > to ask!)? Will we ever find out? > > Yours with somewhat thwarted curiosity > Nathalie > > > > > > > > I am just utterly appalled. And I really thought nothing could shock me > any longer in the medical herbalist field...I don't have a website, and > there are plenty of herbalists who don't belong to professional > organisations, still nobody else (afaik) was ever struck off this list. > > > > > > Sorry, I cannot actually engage with this right now - it is just > unbelievable. And no outrage, business as usual, apart from one " Aw, that > sucks " . Standing up in this list against the dominant view is a bit like > flinging yourself headfirst into a lion's den. Sorry, Robyn, I don't know > whether I will take on the army all by myself, have done it for too often, > and feel it's a bit of a waste of time at the moment. > > > > > > Anyway, will reach for some stress herbs... > > > > > > Disillusioned > > > Sabine > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 I think we need to remember why we are herbalists - it is about the patients, isn't it? Or am I being naive? J Fidler, MCPP, (RH) AHG Herbalist Re: this list > > > Really? > I mean i have no problem with a robust discussion & i find it very > interesting (sometimes illuminating) to have to articulate my own views > but...... > I found the everything not science is rubbish including you & all your > herbs attitude interestingly angry and nastily ( & not interestingly) > aggressive. > It didn't strike me as a discussion whose purpose was enquiry but one > designed to point out all the flaws in everyone else. > > I'm very pleased that no one has ever before been pushed off this list and > i await with interest developments. I'm sure many of us were asking the > question: was this person really a qualified herbalist (but were too polite > to ask!)? Will we ever find out? > > Yours with somewhat thwarted curiosity > Nathalie > > > > > > > > I am just utterly appalled. And I really thought nothing could shock me > any longer in the medical herbalist field...I don't have a website, and > there are plenty of herbalists who don't belong to professional > organisations, still nobody else (afaik) was ever struck off this list. > > > > > > Sorry, I cannot actually engage with this right now - it is just > unbelievable. And no outrage, business as usual, apart from one " Aw, that > sucks " . Standing up in this list against the dominant view is a bit like > flinging yourself headfirst into a lion's den. Sorry, Robyn, I don't know > whether I will take on the army all by myself, have done it for too often, > and feel it's a bit of a waste of time at the moment. > > > > > > Anyway, will reach for some stress herbs... > > > > > > Disillusioned > > > Sabine > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 Hi everyone, Has anyone had experience of using gingko biloba in Downs syndrome. I have a patient who is 3 years old with Downs and the mum is interested in using it to help with concentration and focus. I was also wondering about gota cola. His thyroid function is within normal limits, but only just and it he has been hypothyroid in the past, but not treated for it - mum would like herbs to help maintain thyroid function what would you all suggest - bearing in mind is 3. He is very healthy otherwise and has an excellent diet, multivitamin and mineral supplement and omega oils. Thanks Sally MNIMH Dr. Sally Moorcroft The Natural Health Clinic, Pigeon Cote Farm, Stallingborough Grimsby, NE Lincolnshire DN41 8AJ www.thenaturalhealthclinic.info www.drsallymoorcroft.co.uk To: ukherbal-list From: jones.lynda@... Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 14:22:34 +0000 Subject: Re: Re: this list i agree, I know I was Nathalie!! Lynda ________________________________ To: ukherbal-list Sent: Thu, 24 March, 2011 13:14:24 Subject: Re: this list Really? I mean i have no problem with a robust discussion & i find it very interesting (sometimes illuminating) to have to articulate my own views but...... I found the everything not science is rubbish including you & all your herbs attitude interestingly angry and nastily ( & not interestingly) aggressive. It didn't strike me as a discussion whose purpose was enquiry but one designed to point out all the flaws in everyone else. I'm very pleased that no one has ever before been pushed off this list and i await with interest developments. I'm sure many of us were asking the question: was this person really a qualified herbalist (but were too polite to ask!)? Will we ever find out? Yours with somewhat thwarted curiosity Nathalie > > > > I am just utterly appalled. And I really thought nothing could shock me any >longer in the medical herbalist field...I don't have a website, and there are >plenty of herbalists who don't belong to professional organisations, still >nobody else (afaik) was ever struck off this list. > > > > > Sorry, I cannot actually engage with this right now - it is just >unbelievable. And no outrage, business as usual, apart from one " Aw, that >sucks " . Standing up in this list against the dominant view is a bit like >flinging yourself headfirst into a lion's den. Sorry, Robyn, I don't know >whether I will take on the army all by myself, have done it for too often, and >feel it's a bit of a waste of time at the moment. > > > > > Anyway, will reach for some stress herbs... > > > > Disillusioned > > Sabine > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 Of course it is about our patients. But if we are restricted to a very few herbs for which there is a strong evidence base, if we are prevented from using compound formulae, or any dietary advice where no strong evidence base exists, what benefit to our patients is that? Best regards, Tim. From: susan fidler Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2011 3:07 PM To: ukherbal-list Subject: Re: Re: this list I think we need to remember why we are herbalists - it is about the patients, isn't it? Or am I being naive? J Fidler, MCPP, (RH) AHG Herbalist Re: this list > > > Really? > I mean i have no problem with a robust discussion & i find it very > interesting (sometimes illuminating) to have to articulate my own views > but...... > I found the everything not science is rubbish including you & all your > herbs attitude interestingly angry and nastily ( & not interestingly) > aggressive. > It didn't strike me as a discussion whose purpose was enquiry but one > designed to point out all the flaws in everyone else. > > I'm very pleased that no one has ever before been pushed off this list and > i await with interest developments. I'm sure many of us were asking the > question: was this person really a qualified herbalist (but were too polite > to ask!)? Will we ever find out? > > Yours with somewhat thwarted curiosity > Nathalie > > > > > > > > I am just utterly appalled. And I really thought nothing could shock me > any longer in the medical herbalist field...I don't have a website, and > there are plenty of herbalists who don't belong to professional > organisations, still nobody else (afaik) was ever struck off this list. > > > > > > Sorry, I cannot actually engage with this right now - it is just > unbelievable. And no outrage, business as usual, apart from one " Aw, that > sucks " . Standing up in this list against the dominant view is a bit like > flinging yourself headfirst into a lion's den. Sorry, Robyn, I don't know > whether I will take on the army all by myself, have done it for too often, > and feel it's a bit of a waste of time at the moment. > > > > > > Anyway, will reach for some stress herbs... > > > > > > Disillusioned > > > Sabine > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 The ukherblist is for practising medical herbalists, its always been that, although as Graham has pointed out before - list owners can do anything they like: it's a benign dictatorship Sometimes lists do need moderation, as I have found sometimes list owners have to step in and take action if they feel that it is required, i think its a great testament to the users of this list that this rarely happens here, usually a word or two is enough. I think if the focus of this list was about 'correct' ideology & toeing the line i (and a few others) would probably been pushed off ages ago! Nathalie > > > If she supplies proof that yep, she does in fact practise, she'll be > > resubscribed. If so, you all can continue the discussion. > > > I was not aware that proof of practice was a requirement for joining this > list (it's not in the list rules I have). > > This new rule will definitely lead to further expulsions from the list, and > not only of final year students. > > Not going to happen, I know. This is not about qualifications and practice, > but about ideology and toeing the line, and about being a " real herbalist " . > > I'll better be careful what I say. > > Sorry folks, I'm sickened, and have to take a break from this discussion, > > Regards, > Sabine > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 Hi Sally I don't have any experience of treating Downs (yet!) but have worked with people with D S, and I would definitely think of crataegus to support the heart, as this is nearly always a problem for them in early adulthood, and tends to lower life expectancy. Supporting so early in life might perhaps have potential to ameliorate this tendency? I use Withania in adults to support the thyroid, but haven't had call to use it in children. Bone says it is used for non thriving children to aid weight gain, not sure if he specifies age range or not. bon chance ;-) Sally MNIMH ;-) > > Hi everyone, > > Has anyone had experience of using gingko biloba in Downs syndrome. > I have a patient who is 3 years old with Downs and the mum is > interested in using it to help with concentration and focus. I was > also wondering about gota cola. > > His thyroid function is within normal limits, but only just and it > he has been hypothyroid in the past, but not treated for it - mum > would like herbs to help maintain thyroid function what would you > all suggest - bearing in mind is 3. He is very healthy otherwise and > has an excellent diet, multivitamin and mineral supplement and omega > oils. > > Thanks > Sally MNIMH > > Dr. Sally Moorcroft > The Natural Health Clinic, > Pigeon Cote Farm, Stallingborough > Grimsby, NE Lincolnshire > DN41 8AJ > > www.thenaturalhealthclinic.info > www.drsallymoorcroft.co.uk > > > > > > > To: ukherbal-list > From: jones.lynda@... > Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 14:22:34 +0000 > Subject: Re: Re: this list > > > > > > > i agree, I know I was Nathalie!! > > Lynda > > ________________________________ > > To: ukherbal-list > Sent: Thu, 24 March, 2011 13:14:24 > Subject: Re: this list > > > Really? > I mean i have no problem with a robust discussion & i find it very > interesting > (sometimes illuminating) to have to articulate my own views but...... > I found the everything not science is rubbish including you & all > your herbs > attitude interestingly angry and nastily ( & not interestingly) > aggressive. > > It didn't strike me as a discussion whose purpose was enquiry but > one designed > to point out all the flaws in everyone else. > > I'm very pleased that no one has ever before been pushed off this > list and i > await with interest developments. I'm sure many of us were asking > the question: > was this person really a qualified herbalist (but were too polite to > ask!)? Will > we ever find out? > > Yours with somewhat thwarted curiosity > Nathalie > > >>> >>> I am just utterly appalled. And I really thought nothing could >>> shock me any >> longer in the medical herbalist field...I don't have a website, and >> there are >> plenty of herbalists who don't belong to professional >> organisations, still >> nobody else (afaik) was ever struck off this list. >> >>> >>> Sorry, I cannot actually engage with this right now - it is just >> unbelievable. And no outrage, business as usual, apart from one >> " Aw, that >> sucks " . Standing up in this list against the dominant view is a bit >> like >> flinging yourself headfirst into a lion's den. Sorry, Robyn, I >> don't know >> whether I will take on the army all by myself, have done it for too >> often, and >> feel it's a bit of a waste of time at the moment. >> >>> >>> Anyway, will reach for some stress herbs... >>> >>> Disillusioned >>> Sabine >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 I dont believe mel s removal is anything to do with her presenting a different viewpoint but many of the things she said seemed to be so unlike any herbalists views - to be unconvinced that liquid herbal prescriptions offer any evidence of efficacy just because its anecdotal ??!!- why exactly did mel train to be a herbalist and how could she practise with an attitude that herbs can only be used if they have scientific evidence behind them?! Its like an acupunturist stating they dont believe in meridiens and the movement of chi because theres no scientific proof. ok if you need absolute rigorous scientific trials on every herb but dont practise herbal medicine - be a doctor instead - but there again .....! annette Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 Dear , you said: " Whether she is a practising herbalist is still not clear. " The list rules I have say the list is for medical herbalists, so no stipulation about actually running a practice. However, according to the website this list is " For practicing medical herbalists in the UK " . If we go by this rule, quite a number of current members should be removed: all students, all those qualified herbalists not fully practising for health or family reasons, plus all those residing in Ireland, Australia, New Zealand, Finland, USA, etc. Students don't even need a qualification to join, but Mel has to show proof she is practicing (proof of qualification is not enough). Best regards Sabine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 Dear A few clarifications (though it's pathetic that Mel can't do it herself) " Like Henrietta, I couldn't possibly see how someone could completely dismiss the effectiveness of all herbal medicines yet practice herbalism. It just doesn't make sense. " Mel did not dismiss all herbs, quote from her post 23.03.11: " (I don't think that is true, BTW, that there is no evidence for herbal medicine). " " When she comes back having proven she is an herbalist then the conversation will continue I'm sure. " Did you have to hand in your BSc to join this list? I didn't. Anyway, her having qualifications isn't enough. She has to show proof of 'practice'. Does any of us have to submit how many patients we see each week? No. Best regards Sabine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 Dear Annette, You said: " " I dont believe mel s removal is anything to do with her presenting a different viewpoint but many of the things she said seemed to be so unlike any herbalists views " Yes, exactly what I said - it's because her views are different (i.e. different viewpoint) that she was removed. " why exactly did mel train to be a herbalist and how could she practise with an attitude that herbs can only be used if they have scientific evidence behind them?! " " Well, Mel was chucked off this list so she can't answer that question. But what happened to the " Broad Church " approach, we're all so proud of, that your practice can't be guided by an evidence-based approach anymore? best wishes Sabine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 Dear Nathalie and all, As you can see, I have recovered a little bit from the shock of not only the expulsion, but also the lack of outrage to it (though very relieved to see Craig's post! There's hope yet!). Nathalie said: " i think its a great testament to the users of this list that this rarely happens here, usually a word or two is enough. " Was Mel given a warning? I don't think so! And on what grounds would one have been given? Why did the " list owners have to step in and take action " ? Because of doubts of her qualifications? A one minute search online will provide evidence of her having been at Westminster, giving talks and walks etc. I doubt that the actual piece of paper (BSc) was the real concern. The problem was her point of view, the position she was taking, as can be seen by the messages posted since. Best regards, Sabine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 Dear Sabien the problem with e mail is you dont hear where the emphasis in a sentence is " many of the things she said seemed to be so unlike any herbalists views " the emphasis is on herbalist as mels views seem so contrary to what a person who believes in the value and efficacy of herbs and more like what the orthodox medical profession continually tell us. To say you do not believe in a liquid polyherbal prescription would seem to deny a large part of being a herbalist or at least make it very reductionist . as i said its like an acupuncturist not believing in the existence of meridiens through lack of scientific evidence. nobody is saying your practice cant be guided ( emphasis on guided) by an evidence based approach but from what mel was saying this was the only approach and everything else was mumbo jumbo , magical and wishful thinking - wheres the broad church there? regards ,annette Re: this list Dear Annette, You said: " " I dont believe mel s removal is anything to do with her presenting a different viewpoint but many of the things she said seemed to be so unlike any herbalists views " Yes, exactly what I said - it's because her views are different (i.e. different viewpoint) that she was removed. " why exactly did mel train to be a herbalist and how could she practise with an attitude that herbs can only be used if they have scientific evidence behind them?! " " Well, Mel was chucked off this list so she can't answer that question. But what happened to the " Broad Church " approach, we're all so proud of, that your practice can't be guided by an evidence-based approach anymore? best wishes Sabine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 Dear Annette, you said: " mels views seem so contrary to what a person who believes in the value and efficacy of herbs and more like what the orthodox medical profession continually tell us. To say you do not believe in a liquid polyherbal prescription would seem to deny a large part of being a herbalist or at least make it very reductionist " I think a herbalist could work with simples, if that is what they feel most comfortable with, using those that have scientific evidence behind them (according to whatever exclusion criteria they choose), and prescribe them as part of a completely patient-centred approach, placing great emphasis on the therapeutic relationship, looking at the whole person, lifestyle factors, social set-up, etc. Nothing " reductionist " about that, I would think. You'd get all the non-specific effects that Robyn was talking about, plus the actions of whatever herb/s you chose. Sounds like an ok option to me, and not a reason to be evicted from the list. Wood works, if not with simples, then with just 2 or 3 herbs at a time. " mel was saying this was the only approach and everything else was mumbo jumbo , magical and wishful thinking - wheres the broad church there? " 'Broad church' refers to the idea that under the umbrella of Western herbal medicine a variety of approaches to diagnosis and prescription co-exist: e.g. vitalistic approaches including physiomedicalism, humoral medicine, dowsing, applying TCM and Ayurvedic thinking, and last (and probably least) a scientific, evidence-based approach. Broad church does not mean you have to apply every one of these! best wishes Sabine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 Hello Sabine, There have been a few posts which reference research, that counters the strong EBM argument as the only appropriate approach to herbal medicine. It is entirely possible to cherry pick research to prove an argument or opinion. So I stand by what I have said; a one-sided argument which is relentlessly pursued runs the risk of limiting the scope of practice of many herbalists. it is my opinion, after having looked at various blogs, articles and web sites to see that there is a wish by some to terminate the activities of herbalists, and I think that there is a strong possibility that they will continue with this agenda for some time to come. this isn’t paranoia, this isn’t vilification of the minority, or casting them in the role of the oppressor, it is a simple act of observation. How you came to the conclusion that I was supporting Mel’s expulsion, as I have made absolutely no comment at all, actual or implied, either way on that subject, remains unclear to me. As for the domain you want me to name, I am hard pressed to; so many people and organisations currently seem to have their own agenda that primarily serves vested interests. Best regards, Tim. From: Sabine Hiller Sent: Friday, March 25, 2011 5:00 PM To: ukherbal-list Subject: Re: Re: this list (another post quickly, before I'm expelled;-) Dear Tim, I should have given it in your own words - here it is: " A couple of herbalists relentlessly presenting the uncompromising views that Mel holds, plus a couple of committee members with similar views, equals a rather uncertain future post SR for those of us who like to practice in the way that the majority of contributors to current discussions seem to prefer. " To me that sounded like you think that a couple of vocal herbalists (plus others) are responsible for jeopardising the future practice of the majority. As a response to my dismay at Mel's expulsion, it sounded (at least to me) like an approval of that act. But I am glad to hear that you think " she has a right to express her views as much as others have to express theirs " , even though unfortunately she has lost that right now. " politics rarely, and indeed science only sometimes, follows a path of logic and objectivity " What domain do you suggest does the best job at following a path of logic and objectivity? Best regards Sabine Re: this list (another post quickly, before I'm expelled;-) Hi all, Why do some people need to be expelled from the list? As somebody said, we need a space in which we can all trust each other. A space where you can talk freely, without a potential " hey, that doesn't make sense " looming over you. A place where you can affirm each other in what you believe. As Fiona said, you feel the strength that comes from being part of a big bundle of sticks (fasces), that all hold together. Also, we know how to spot the minority sticks. Those minority sticks, that, as Tim says, are responsible for our uncertain future. Those who have shown their untrustworthiness by fraternising with the enemies of the profession. Not only untrustworthy, they are not real herbalists anyway. So, let's enjoy our unity and banish serious dissent, and not only that, let us create the belief that this dissenting minority does in fact oppress us. You may say that I am paranoid due to my German background, but the image of the fasces, the casting of the minority into the role of oppressor, the suppression of dissent, the encouragement of irrationality and the exaltation of tradition and authority - it is hard not to be struck by the paralells. One thing is for sure, this latest episode means that serious dissent on this list is unlikely to happen again. Once you have learned what view or position is unacceptable to the 'benign dictators', you will toe the line, because they have the power to expel you. Best regards, Sabine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2011 Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 Hi, A simple Google search does not reveal Mel is a herbalist. It is not clear, to me at least, whether she is practising as such. I agree with others that a clarification of rules for being on this list would be helpful. Regards Gascoigne > > Hi Charlotte > > No please don¹t go! I do not see any reason for you not to continue > being on > the forum. > > This list is for herbalists and EVERY herbalist is a practising herbalist > even if the only person in their practice is themselves! > > Once a herbalist, always a herbalist  whether you are making your income > from being a herbalist is irrelevant! > > My understanding is that Mel was coming out with such un-herbalist-like > comments and communicating them in an unusually aggressive way which > ruffled > some feathers. This led to genuine confusion as to whether she was > actually > a herbalist or not. Of course as it turned out, a simple google search > showed that she was  but whilst this was being verified she was > temporarily > suspended from the list. > > Anyway the occaisional bit of feather-ruffling is a good thing in my > opinion > and always offers an opportunity to get to know yourself even better  > which > is of course what the whole game of healing is actually about! > > Best wishes to all > > Shakeela > -- > > Fiona Shakeela Burns > > Medical Herbalist, Advanced PSYCH-K, Matrix Reimprinting and EFT > facilitator > > http://www.natureworx.com > http://www.cancerucan.co.uk > > You're never going to get to any final place. And so, we want to > remind you > to relax and start having fun on the way. > --- Abraham > > On 27/3/11 00:05, " Charlotte Stedman " <charlotte.stedman@... > <mailto:charlotte.stedman%40hotmail.co.uk>> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Graham and all > > > > I am please that Mel has been reinstated to the list as I felt her > expulsion > > was more about censorship than whether or not she was a practicing > herbalist . > > I have enjoyed being a member of this list since it's origins in > about 1999 > > and like the fact that there are contributions that offer a range of > views - > > even if they are challenging or in direct opposition to my own view > of the > > world. It is a great reminder that there are many different > approaches to > > healthcare. I also like the fact that there are people on the > herbal-list who > > have expertise in areas other than herbalism, that can enrich our > discussions. > > > > Having said that, I have to declare that I am no longer a practicing > herbalist > > as I am currently working as an allergy dietitian in the NHS. > However, I still > > have a keen interest in herbal medicine and still have a small herbal > > dispensary for my own use. I like to read the herbal-list as it > keeps me in > > touch with what is going on in the herbal world and I find myself often > > defending herbalists or dispelling myths when the subject comes up > at work. > > > > So, according to the rules....I suppose I should be expelled from > the list? > > > > Bye, it's been fun! > > > > Charlotte Stedman > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2011 Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 Hi Charlotte No please don¹t go! I do not see any reason for you not to continue being on the forum. This list is for herbalists and EVERY herbalist is a practising herbalist even if the only person in their practice is themselves! Once a herbalist, always a herbalist  whether you are making your income from being a herbalist is irrelevant! My understanding is that Mel was coming out with such un-herbalist-like comments and communicating them in an unusually aggressive way which ruffled some feathers. This led to genuine confusion as to whether she was actually a herbalist or not. Of course as it turned out, a simple google search showed that she was  but whilst this was being verified she was temporarily suspended from the list. Anyway the occaisional bit of feather-ruffling is a good thing in my opinion and always offers an opportunity to get to know yourself even better  which is of course what the whole game of healing is actually about! Best wishes to all Shakeela -- Fiona Shakeela Burns Medical Herbalist, Advanced PSYCH-K, Matrix Reimprinting and EFT facilitator http://www.natureworx.com http://www.cancerucan.co.uk You're never going to get to any final place. And so, we want to remind you to relax and start having fun on the way. --- Abraham On 27/3/11 00:05, " Charlotte Stedman " wrote: > > > > > > Hi Graham and all > > I am please that Mel has been reinstated to the list as I felt her expulsion > was more about censorship than whether or not she was a practicing herbalist . > I have enjoyed being a member of this list since it's origins in about 1999 > and like the fact that there are contributions that offer a range of views - > even if they are challenging or in direct opposition to my own view of the > world. It is a great reminder that there are many different approaches to > healthcare. I also like the fact that there are people on the herbal-list who > have expertise in areas other than herbalism, that can enrich our discussions. > > Having said that, I have to declare that I am no longer a practicing herbalist > as I am currently working as an allergy dietitian in the NHS. However, I still > have a keen interest in herbal medicine and still have a small herbal > dispensary for my own use. I like to read the herbal-list as it keeps me in > touch with what is going on in the herbal world and I find myself often > defending herbalists or dispelling myths when the subject comes up at work. > > So, according to the rules....I suppose I should be expelled from the list? > > Bye, it's been fun! > > Charlotte Stedman > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2011 Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 I can confirm that Mel was a year behind me in the Herbal Med course at Westminster. I graduated in 2008. I believe she finished the course, but don't know for sure as we weren't personally acquainted. Deborah McDonnell, MCPP, MNIMH H O L I S T I C H E R B A L 14 Leyborne Park Richmond TW9 3HA <http://www.holisticherbal.co.uk/> http://www.holisticherbal.co.uk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2011 Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 Hi Charlotte  Nah, you count as one of our non-herbalist experts:-)  To clarify this list was set up to enable practising herbalists to stay in touch, especially ones that weren't members of any professional organisation, but over time it has been useful to have people on the list who either are no longer or never were practising herbalists because of their individual expertise in various areas that are of interest to practitioners, Charlotte, Witton, Chenery all spring to mind.  What myself, Henriette and others found odd in Mel's case is that she purported to be a herbalist and then espoused a reductionist and extremely narrowly defined concept of proof and efficacy which, to my mind, would actually make it impossible for her to treat any real live patients. When asked about this she evaded the question, which is why Henriette temporarily unsubbed her.  BTW when asked about safety of herbal medicine and its practitioners, especially by people in the health field, I simply tell them how much my insurance costs - actuaries are never wrong!  Cheers Graham White, B.Sc. (Herb. Med.) Medical Herbalist -------------------------------- Phone: 01279 305793 Mobile: 07740 766335 www.gcwhite.co.uk Subject: Re: this list To: ukherbal-list Date: Sunday, 27 March, 2011, 0:05  Hi Graham and all I am please that Mel has been reinstated to the list as I felt her expulsion was more about censorship than whether or not she was a practicing herbalist . I have enjoyed being a member of this list since it's origins in about 1999 and like the fact that there are contributions that offer a range of views - even if they are challenging or in direct opposition to my own view of the world. It is a great reminder that there are many different approaches to healthcare. I also like the fact that there are people on the herbal-list who have expertise in areas other than herbalism, that can enrich our discussions. Having said that, I have to declare that I am no longer a practicing herbalist as I am currently working as an allergy dietitian in the NHS. However, I still have a keen interest in herbal medicine and still have a small herbal dispensary for my own use. I like to read the herbal-list as it keeps me in touch with what is going on in the herbal world and I find myself often defending herbalists or dispelling myths when the subject comes up at work. So, according to the rules....I suppose I should be expelled from the list? Bye, it's been fun! Charlotte Stedman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2011 Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 When I last ventured onto Bad Science, there was a herbal student posting there complaining about magical thinking etc, and being sympathised with and accepted into the " posse " I wonder if this was Mel? I have no way of telling as they posted under a pseudonym as do all except Ben. It gives them the option as to whom they reveal their identity to. I gave up posting there as I sensed that they were trying to draw me out in order to spend the time, they obviously have so much of, looking for arguments that would superficially appear to rubbish mine. My only concern with Mel's reinstatement is that this may be her intention. There is no way of checking this, as there is a private " activism " forum, to which I am not subscribed. Our responses to Mel have been very polite, compared to the reception received by anybody foolish enough to venture onto Bad Science and speak of any CAM therapist in a manner other than dismissive. (I would be very happy to be proven wrong in this.........) However, if one speaks of fascism to counter an argument, one is accused of invoking Godwin's Law and are deemed to have lost the argument, I must go, I have seedlings to water, Sally Owen The activism board is for planning campaigns against us dangerous quacks (amongst other things I presume, but attacking complementary medicine seems to have brought Ben G a high profile, which he, as would most people, obviously enjoys. * We are an easy target to attack and thereby build a media profile.) * I'd love to be on the News quiz with Hardy, etc, wouldn't you?, and it grieves me to see his fine mind being poisoned by the anti complementary medicine prejudice so apparent now in the intelligent satire field) > I can confirm that Mel was a year behind me in the Herbal Med course > at > Westminster. I graduated in 2008. I believe she finished the course, > but > don't know for sure as we weren't personally acquainted. > > > > Deborah McDonnell, MCPP, MNIMH > > H O L I S T I C H E R B A L > > 14 Leyborne Park > > Richmond TW9 3HA > > <http://www.holisticherbal.co.uk/> http://www.holisticherbal.co.uk > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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