Re: Wrong turns...

[Guest guest]

I'd consider concentrating on the " right " turns, not on the " wrong "

ones.

Love,

Am 09.11.2006 um 13:15 schrieb garyniemen:

> Hi there,

> I have been using the The Work as my preferred tool for growth and

> realisation for 3 or 4 years now. So, I am quite experienced. However,

> over the years I would say that, if it is possible to take 'wrong

> turns' with The Work, then I have taken most of them. For example,

> having a desired outcome, being too cerebral, not going deep enough,

> not following the simple instructions, and so on. BK talks about all

> of these. I would be really interested to hear about other's 'wrong

> turns'. What I want to do is compile a list of these 'wrong turns' and

> write something about each with an example. I want to do this for

> myself but I could imagine it could be useful for others too. So, if

> you fancy, please tell me about your so-called 'wrong turns'. And yes

> I know: In reality, there are no 'wrong turns'.

> Thanks

> Niemen

___________________________________________________________

Der frühe Vogel fängt den Wurm. Hier gelangen Sie zum neuen Yahoo! Mail:

http://mail.yahoo.de

[Guest guest]

>

> What I want to do is compile a list of these 'wrong turns' and

> write something about each with an example. I want to do this for

> myself but I could imagine it could be useful for others too. So, if

> you fancy, please tell me about your so-called 'wrong turns'. And

> yes I know: In reality, there are no 'wrong turns'.

Hi ,

A common criticism of the Work is that it is too simple. At first I

disagreed with this statement, but like yourself after years and years

of experience with the Work I now find that it is true. For example,

simply asking whether a stressful statement is true or not, is way too

simplistic. To truly understand whether any statement is " true "

requires an understanding of the common cognitive distortions the mind

engages in. Dr. Burns identifies ten such distortions eg.

fortune telling, personalization, all or nothing thinking etc.

often references all these types of distortions, but because she has

not researched what is really going on, the Work becomes a very weak

cognitive tool for effecting any deep personal transformation.

Consider a depressed person who truly believes the thought that they

are worthless. When asked whether it is true, their answer would have

to be " yes " . Even when asked if they can absolutely know it is true,

their answer would have to be " yes " , because they are trapped in

emotional reasoning. To see that it was not true they would have to

have some realization of the types of cognitive distortions they were

believing and how they were not true. The third question allows them

to see how painful holding the distorted thought can be, but since

they have no real reason to believe that it is not true, they continue

to hold on to it. The turn-around " I am not wothless " or " I am

valuable " has little impact, because the depressed person has NOT

realized that the original thought is a distortion of reality.

So for me the first " wrong turn " most people make with the Work is to

try to use it without a sound grounding in current cognitive

psychology. With a strong theoretical background in cognitive

psychology the Work becomes a very powerful tool, without that it is

far too simplistic to be of any real value. Bottom line, find a good

cognitive psychologist who is familiar with the Work, or get a few

good books on cognitive psychology and start reading!

" There's nothing between you and love but unquestioned concepts. "

Byron

[Guest guest]

Hi,

Liked your mail - very interesting. As it happens, I am currently

reading a number of books in the area of Cognitive Psychology. I am

particularly impressed with Windy Dryden - he is so clear. There are

many parallels between what Windy says and what says.

It is good to hear somebody else's opinion in this area. I thought I

would get lots of " there are no mistakes " type responses. I still

might. However, I am very interested in these 'wrong turns'

or 'pitfalls'.

Another aspect to this subject is that I have found over the years

that I have used The Work and it has, kind of, led me in the 'wrong'

direction. I'll try and explain with an example. For me, in my life,

it was really important that I gathered the courage to stand up to

my mother - I needed to confront her about certain issues. And,

eventually, I managed and the results in my life have been very

positive. However, for quite a while, I used The Work to avoid this

confrontation. I used The Work to try and solve everything

internally. So, what I am saying here is that I have often, over the

years, 'mis-used' or is it 'abused' The Work. I have used it in the

same way that I might have used other 'self-harming behaviour' in

the past. So, The Work becomes my drug. And BK talks about it being

the final addiction I think - but I am not sure this is what she

means.

To balance all this, I just want to say as well that I when I

first 'met' The Work I fell in love with it - I went crazy about it

for about a year.I have used it regularly for 3 or 4 years. I have

also been to The School and on an intensive as well as having

monthly sessions with a The Work therapist for 15 months or so. I

have had many marvelous times with it, many insights. And it has

helped me in my life immensely. And, it has been tricky sometimes

and there have been these 'wrong turns' or 'pitfalls' or 'mis-uses?

So, any more 'wrong turns' or 'pitfalls' or 'mis-uses? Anybody? Any

other comments?

Niemen

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I'm thinking about your topic, as it touches several aspects i was

pondering about (myself) already.

Love, Rose

> Hi,

>

> Liked your mail - very interesting. As it happens, I am currently

> reading a number of books in the area of Cognitive Psychology. I am

> particularly impressed with Windy Dryden - he is so clear. There

are

> many parallels between what Windy says and what says.

> It is good to hear somebody else's opinion in this area. I thought

I

> would get lots of " there are no mistakes " type responses. I still

> might. However, I am very interested in these 'wrong turns'

> or 'pitfalls'.

>

> Another aspect to this subject is that I have found over the years

> that I have used The Work and it has, kind of, led me in

the 'wrong'

> direction. I'll try and explain with an example. For me, in my

life,

> it was really important that I gathered the courage to stand up to

> my mother - I needed to confront her about certain issues. And,

> eventually, I managed and the results in my life have been very

> positive. However, for quite a while, I used The Work to avoid this

> confrontation. I used The Work to try and solve everything

> internally. So, what I am saying here is that I have often, over

the

> years, 'mis-used' or is it 'abused' The Work. I have used it in the

> same way that I might have used other 'self-harming behaviour' in

> the past. So, The Work becomes my drug. And BK talks about it being

> the final addiction I think - but I am not sure this is what she

> means.

>

> To balance all this, I just want to say as well that I when I

> first 'met' The Work I fell in love with it - I went crazy about it

> for about a year.I have used it regularly for 3 or 4 years. I have

> also been to The School and on an intensive as well as having

> monthly sessions with a The Work therapist for 15 months or so. I

> have had many marvelous times with it, many insights. And it has

> helped me in my life immensely. And, it has been tricky sometimes

> and there have been these 'wrong turns' or 'pitfalls' or 'mis-uses?

>

> So, any more 'wrong turns' or 'pitfalls' or 'mis-uses? Anybody? Any

> other comments?

>

> Niemen

>

[Guest guest]

hi gary,,, i usually want a desired outcome.. and when my husband

tries to

facilitate me with the work.. i go into my story so much..

i usually quit in disgust-

so he doesnt like the work and i feel bad about that.

i would love to read your list and examples.. sometime.. if you would

be willing to post it.. just to notice what i am doing wrong.

I also believe .. i dont do the work good enough. As i have had not

good enough issues on everything all my life.

i suppose i have expectations. and you cant go beyond your evolution.

also i dont go deep .. i tend to answer with a quick answer.

But i keep trying because i have had a few realizations with it.

thanks roslyn

-- In Loving-what-is , " garyniemen "

wrote:

>

> Hi there,

> I have been using the The Work as my preferred tool for growth and

> realisation for 3 or 4 years now. So, I am quite experienced.

However,

> over the years I would say that, if it is possible to take 'wrong

> turns' with The Work, then I have taken most of them. For example,

> having a desired outcome, being too cerebral, not going deep

enough,

> not following the simple instructions, and so on. BK talks about

all

> of these. I would be really interested to hear about other's 'wrong

> turns'. What I want to do is compile a list of these 'wrong turns'

and

> write something about each with an example. I want to do this for

> myself but I could imagine it could be useful for others too. So,

if

> you fancy, please tell me about your so-called 'wrong turns'. And

yes

> I know: In reality, there are no 'wrong turns'.

> Thanks

> Niemen

>

[Guest guest]

Hi all again,

So, thanks all for your posts so far - most interesting.

I will continue with this 'wrong turn' topic. I am a member of the

Parlour and I wrote this to a few months ago. No reply yet

unfortunately. There are 3 specific examples in the note from my life

- where I feel the Work hasn't worked or where I have (perhaps)

mis-used The Work. Comments most welcome.

N

**********************

Dear ,

Basic background: I am male, 40 years old, English origin but live and

work in Sweden. (Is all that true?)

I love The Work and have used it as a tool for growth and

understanding for the best part of 4 years - this has included a hefty

amount of self-enquiry, a year-long series of sessions with a Work

facilitator, a 2-day intensive in Stockholm, and the 9-day school in

Germany. However, I have found over the years that some of the

elements of The Work lead me back into old destructive patterns and

confusion instead of towards peace and understanding.

Here is an example: What has been really important for me in my

struggle to find peace in this life is to get in touch with my

feelings and live authentically from that instead of operating from

some kind of false self. I can't really explain what this false self

is apart from that it feels like I am living a lie and is a very

fragile place from which to live. I have suffered from depression (or

is it anger turned inwards) for many years, which is perhaps because

of this so-called false self. In summary, I find it hard to get in

touch and stay in touch with my feelings. The Work has helped me with

this of course but what I have discovered is that, much of the time,

instead of using The Work to reach my truth, my feelings - I tend to

use The Work (or more specifically, the 4 questions and turnaround) to

deny my feelings. In other words, The Work becomes another way for me

to avoid myself. I have discovered that I use The Work in the same way

that I have used many other things in the past. The Work becomes my

drug - what I use to avoid my feelings.

Here is another example: I have a tendency to self-hate. I have

struggled with this for years. It is very easy for me to slip into the

groove of self hate. When I use The Work I follow the simple

instructions - judge your neighbour, write it down, ask 4 questions,

and turn it around. But the turn around often leads to phrases and

sentences that the self-hater in me just loves to take on board - a

bit too easily! And the self hate leads to depression. So, again, I am

using The Work in a way that reinforces old destructive patterns. More

confusion is created and very little peace (or joy).

And a final example: I have had a difficult relationship with my

mother for most of my life. In broad terms, she has bullied me for

most of my life and up until very recently I have been scared of her.

It has been really important for me to stand up for myself and stand

up to her. I have now done this. However, for a couple of years I used

The Work to try and avoid standing up to her. I tried to sort the

problem out entirely in my own mind - and, therefore, avoid speaking

up and facing her. I was scared of what I think was the necessary

conflict and tried to sort it all out in my own head - without her

even knowing. So, this it seems, is another way that I misused The Work.

There was a six month period - around the time I first discovered The

Work - when I, kind of, fell in love with it. I wonder now if this

falling in love wasn't just me picking an unsuitable 'relationship'

because the mind saw that the 'object of love' (The Work in this

instance) could easily be used to reinforce old destructive patterns.

Can you comment on what I have written here - and also, more

specifically, help me by suggesting ways that I can ensure that I use

The Work to move towards peace and understanding instead of using it

to run away from true feelings, reinforce habits of self hate, and

avoid necessary confrontations.

With love

Niemen

*********************

> >

> > Hi there,

> > I have been using the The Work as my preferred tool for growth and

> > realisation for 3 or 4 years now. So, I am quite experienced.

> However,

> > over the years I would say that, if it is possible to take 'wrong

> > turns' with The Work, then I have taken most of them. For example,

> > having a desired outcome, being too cerebral, not going deep

> enough,

> > not following the simple instructions, and so on. BK talks about

> all

> > of these. I would be really interested to hear about other's 'wrong

> > turns'. What I want to do is compile a list of these 'wrong turns'

> and

> > write something about each with an example. I want to do this for

> > myself but I could imagine it could be useful for others too. So,

> if

> > you fancy, please tell me about your so-called 'wrong turns'. And

> yes

> > I know: In reality, there are no 'wrong turns'.

> > Thanks

> > Niemen

> >

>

[Guest guest]

gary i feel like i could of written your email.except i have never

been scared of my mother.. although i felt i should do things she

wanted me to and i failed at them.. as i had no interest.

I guess i was scared of telling her the truth that i had no interest

and scared to express my real feelings. ..

And when i go to visit her and my brother i go into a deep

depression.. which i really dont understand..

I wish KAtie had answered it.. --

oh well

maybe someone else will..

thanks roslyn

- In Loving-what-is , " garyniemen "

wrote:

>

> Hi all again,

> So, thanks all for your posts so far - most interesting.

> I will continue with this 'wrong turn' topic. I am a member of the

> Parlour and I wrote this to a few months ago. No reply yet

> unfortunately. There are 3 specific examples in the note from my

life

> - where I feel the Work hasn't worked or where I have (perhaps)

> mis-used The Work. Comments most welcome.

> N

>

> **********************

> Dear ,

>

> Basic background: I am male, 40 years old, English origin but live

and

> work in Sweden. (Is all that true?)

>

> I love The Work and have used it as a tool for growth and

> understanding for the best part of 4 years - this has included a

hefty

> amount of self-enquiry, a year-long series of sessions with a Work

> facilitator, a 2-day intensive in Stockholm, and the 9-day school in

> Germany. However, I have found over the years that some of the

> elements of The Work lead me back into old destructive patterns and

> confusion instead of towards peace and understanding.

>

> Here is an example: What has been really important for me in my

> struggle to find peace in this life is to get in touch with my

> feelings and live authentically from that instead of operating from

> some kind of false self. I can't really explain what this false self

> is apart from that it feels like I am living a lie and is a very

> fragile place from which to live. I have suffered from depression

(or

> is it anger turned inwards) for many years, which is perhaps because

> of this so-called false self. In summary, I find it hard to get in

> touch and stay in touch with my feelings. The Work has helped me

with

> this of course but what I have discovered is that, much of the time,

> instead of using The Work to reach my truth, my feelings - I tend to

> use The Work (or more specifically, the 4 questions and turnaround)

to

> deny my feelings. In other words, The Work becomes another way for

me

> to avoid myself. I have discovered that I use The Work in the same

way

> that I have used many other things in the past. The Work becomes my

> drug - what I use to avoid my feelings.

>

> Here is another example: I have a tendency to self-hate. I have

> struggled with this for years. It is very easy for me to slip into

the

> groove of self hate. When I use The Work I follow the simple

> instructions - judge your neighbour, write it down, ask 4 questions,

> and turn it around. But the turn around often leads to phrases and

> sentences that the self-hater in me just loves to take on board - a

> bit too easily! And the self hate leads to depression. So, again, I

am

> using The Work in a way that reinforces old destructive patterns.

More

> confusion is created and very little peace (or joy).

>

> And a final example: I have had a difficult relationship with my

> mother for most of my life. In broad terms, she has bullied me for

> most of my life and up until very recently I have been scared of

her.

> It has been really important for me to stand up for myself and stand

> up to her. I have now done this. However, for a couple of years I

used

> The Work to try and avoid standing up to her. I tried to sort the

> problem out entirely in my own mind - and, therefore, avoid speaking

> up and facing her. I was scared of what I think was the necessary

> conflict and tried to sort it all out in my own head - without her

> even knowing. So, this it seems, is another way that I misused The

Work.

>

> There was a six month period - around the time I first discovered

The

> Work - when I, kind of, fell in love with it. I wonder now if this

> falling in love wasn't just me picking an unsuitable 'relationship'

> because the mind saw that the 'object of love' (The Work in this

> instance) could easily be used to reinforce old destructive

patterns.

>

> Can you comment on what I have written here - and also, more

> specifically, help me by suggesting ways that I can ensure that I

use

> The Work to move towards peace and understanding instead of using it

> to run away from true feelings, reinforce habits of self hate, and

> avoid necessary confrontations.

>

> With love

> Niemen

> *********************

>

>

> > >

> > > Hi there,

> > > I have been using the The Work as my preferred tool for growth

and

> > > realisation for 3 or 4 years now. So, I am quite experienced.

> > However,

> > > over the years I would say that, if it is possible to

take 'wrong

> > > turns' with The Work, then I have taken most of them. For

example,

> > > having a desired outcome, being too cerebral, not going deep

> > enough,

> > > not following the simple instructions, and so on. BK talks

about

> > all

> > > of these. I would be really interested to hear about

other's 'wrong

> > > turns'. What I want to do is compile a list of these 'wrong

turns'

> > and

> > > write something about each with an example. I want to do this

for

> > > myself but I could imagine it could be useful for others too.

So,

> > if

> > > you fancy, please tell me about your so-called 'wrong turns'.

And

> > yes

> > > I know: In reality, there are no 'wrong turns'.

> > > Thanks

> > > Niemen

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hello ,

I love the questions you ask.

First, questionning The Work:

The Work is about questionning everything, so why not question The Work?

For me I believe it os OK.

> But the turn around often leads to phrases and

> sentences that the self-hater in me just loves to take on board - a

> bit too easily! And the self hate leads to depression. So, again, I am

> using The Work in a way that reinforces old destructive patterns. More

> confusion is created and very little peace (or joy).

No one ever said (nor B. ) that the turnarounds must be true or truer.

On top of it, you seem to be conscious that you allow the " self-hater " to " drive

your car " .

I would say that you have here a nice chinck of consciousness. You are not 100%

blieving

unconsciously that " you are bad etc... " (the self hatred thoughts), thare is a

part of you that

is observing this self)hater behaviour and is conscious of it.

Who is this part. Eckhart Tolle calles it " the silent watcher " that observe the

" pain body " . If

a negative thoughts ends up appearing in one of your turnarounds, could it be

that you

are believing that it is true?

In the exemple of having pain by cinfrontation with a parent, you might find a

way which is

neither submitting nor retaliating => setting boundaries. And acting from that

place.

E. Tolle says: " Wherever you are, be there totally. If you find your here and

now intolerable

and it makes you unhappy, you have three options: remove yourself from the

situation,

change it, or accept it totally. " .

In that aspect I personnaly find that The Work is a process of Openning issues

by posing

questions, and that, in fact, there are no posed or fixed answers. The is just

an openning

to the possibilities. And that might also be a reason for having sometimes

frustrationn of

not having " down to earth recepies " from doing the work.

N.

>

> Hi all again,

> So, thanks all for your posts so far - most interesting.

> I will continue with this 'wrong turn' topic. I am a member of the

> Parlour and I wrote this to a few months ago. No reply yet

> unfortunately. There are 3 specific examples in the note from my life

> - where I feel the Work hasn't worked or where I have (perhaps)

> mis-used The Work. Comments most welcome.

> N

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks for all that - good stuff. I have also read some of Eckart

Tolle and find him inspiring and clear. As this discussion

progresses, I begin to see the importance of 'balance' when doing

The Work. Do I throw myself in to it totally? Do I stand back from

it totally? Probably somewhere in between. I also see the importance

of 'expectations'. What do I expect from The Work? Will it give me

total peace? Will it totally ruin my life? Probably somewhere in

between. This discussion has been very good for me - thank you all.

Best wishes

N

> >

> > Hi all again,

> > So, thanks all for your posts so far - most interesting.

> > I will continue with this 'wrong turn' topic. I am a member of

the

> > Parlour and I wrote this to a few months ago. No reply yet

> > unfortunately. There are 3 specific examples in the note from my

life

> > - where I feel the Work hasn't worked or where I have (perhaps)

> > mis-used The Work. Comments most welcome.

> > N

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

> I will continue with this 'wrong turn' topic. I am a member of the

> Parlour and I wrote this to a few months ago. No reply yet

> unfortunately. There are 3 specific examples in the note from my life

> - where I feel the Work hasn't worked or where I have (perhaps)

> mis-used The Work. Comments most welcome.

> N

>

> **********************

> Dear ,

>

> Basic background: I am male, 40 years old, English origin but live and

> work in Sweden. (Is all that true?)

Is this a question to her?

And is it true for you?

> I love The Work and have used it as a tool for growth and

> understanding for the best part of 4 years - this has included a hefty

> amount of self-enquiry, a year-long series of sessions with a Work

> facilitator, a 2-day intensive in Stockholm, and the 9-day school in

> Germany. However, I have found over the years that some of the

> elements of The Work lead me back into old destructive patterns and

> confusion instead of towards peace and understanding.

" some elements of the work leads me back into old destructive

patterns " - I find it difficult to relate to that.

And I hear you want to go towards peace an understanding.

So, where is it, you are now?

To be sure that you have not reached your goal yet, and you are not

exactly where you want to be, you must have a reference point. And

you must also know that the reference point (where you are now, or

better: your story about where you are now) is *not* where you want

to be. And you have to have a story about how the place you want to

get to looks like. Inquire into that. What if you are at your

destination already, and you just did not realize it, because you

thought it would look a specific way? You just were not aware that it

does not look like what you thought it would look like?

What if there had been a misunderstanding in how " peace " looks like?

Or, if you prefer, in other words: who would you be without your

story that you are led into destructive patterns, instead towards peace?

Let's look at your example.

> Here is an example: What has been really important for me in my

> struggle to find peace in this life is to get in touch with my

> feelings and live authentically from that instead of operating from

> some kind of false self. I can't really explain what this false self

> is apart from that it feels like I am living a lie and is a very

> fragile place from which to live. I have suffered from depression (or

> is it anger turned inwards)

describe anger. How does it work?

> for many years, which is perhaps because

> of this so-called false self. In summary, I find it hard to get in

> touch and stay in touch with my feelings. The Work has helped me with

> this of course but what I have discovered is that, much of the time,

> instead of using The Work to reach my truth, my feelings - I tend to

> use The Work (or more specifically, the 4 questions and turnaround) to

> deny my feelings. In other words, The Work becomes another way for me

> to avoid myself. I have discovered that I use The Work in the same way

> that I have used many other things in the past. The Work becomes my

> drug - what I use to avoid my feelings.

ok, so give us one example. One where you use the work to avoid your

feelings. Be specific.

> Here is another example: I have a tendency to self-hate. I have

> struggled with this for years. It is very easy for me to slip into the

> groove of self hate. When I use The Work I follow the simple

> instructions - judge your neighbour, write it down, ask 4 questions,

> and turn it around. But the turn around often leads to phrases and

> sentences that the self-hater in me just loves to take on board - a

> bit too easily! And the self hate leads to depression. So, again, I am

> using The Work in a way that reinforces old destructive patterns. More

> confusion is created and very little peace (or joy).

Yes. Again, give a specific example.

You see, you seem to be the neighbour you are so willingly judging. I

don't hear you judge the others, but you judge yourself, instead.

This is where you don't inquire.

We are advised not to do the work on ourselves, but on our

neighbours. This is, because some people, when they do the work on

themselves, especially in the beginning, do the work to make " the

work " change themselves. They do the work with a motive. And when you

do the work with a motive, you don't wait for the answer to arise.

You are not still.

That is not inquiry. Or, it is not inquiry for the sake of truth.

> And a final example: I have had a difficult relationship with my

> mother for most of my life. In broad terms, she has bullied me for

> most of my life and up until very recently I have been scared of her.

> It has been really important for me to stand up for myself and stand

> up to her. I have now done this. However, for a couple of years I used

> The Work to try and avoid standing up to her. I tried to sort the

> problem out entirely in my own mind - and, therefore, avoid speaking

> up and facing her. I was scared of what I think was the necessary

> conflict and tried to sort it all out in my own head - without her

> even knowing. So, this it seems, is another way that I misused The

> Work.

Ok. How long have you avoided standing up to her before you knew the

work?

Was that longer than avoiding it *with* having the work?

So, what worked better, at last? Using the work, or not using the work?

You see, once I am free, I don't care how long it took me to get

free. And I don't care *what* it took me.

> There was a six month period - around the time I first discovered The

> Work - when I, kind of, fell in love with it. I wonder now if this

> falling in love wasn't just me picking an unsuitable 'relationship'

> because the mind saw that the 'object of love' (The Work in this

> instance) could easily be used to reinforce old destructive patterns.

Yes.

> Can you comment on what I have written here - and also, more

> specifically, help me by suggesting ways that I can ensure that I use

> The Work to move towards peace and understanding instead of using it

> to run away from true feelings, reinforce habits of self hate, and

> avoid necessary confrontations.

I'll start with commenting, now.

I hear you got out of your old destructive patterns.

And that you reinforced them, before getting out of them.

To me that sounds like you had to have them reinforced to get out of

them.

Because I hear that that is what happened.

> With love

> Niemen

Love,

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