Re: observations on physical sensations (called pain) @ ander

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

i'm back for that topic as i have had lot's of enourmous pain during

the last days. not even pills did work. so it's a good time to pick

that up again.

this time it was the other way round. these spasms were so intensive

that i fell asleep really exhausted, not noticing anything during the

sleep and came back to consciousness in the morning for a little

while free of them. then they came back, but less intensive.

wrote: > And in the moment you call it " pain " , you got a

story.

well. i could call it a sting. an inner pull, a spasm. well i am

talking about something i can report about with words. there have

been two days this week when i said to may darling: i'ld like to

discarnate. this time it's more than i can handle. i am talking about

pain. a succession of sensations in this body_mind_organism that is

not plesant but rather aching. again, i need a term, how else could i

communicate with another human being, except from sign language?

so here we go. here is the ache, it's overwhelming. none of the

helpful methods i knew from the past had helped. (i am talking about

experience values, like after roses body had learnt to walk in early

childhood, it didn't unlearn it. usually i draw these experience

values and continue to experiment, this time without noticeable

results compared with " the past " )

>

> > i deeply learned to live with it and have really seldom any not

> > accepting of it. i simply deal with it. i found when it is strong

i

> > withdraw from life. the stronger the pain the smaller my scope

gets.

> > i reach a point of just being without any resistance, or desire.

> > a breathing being riding on waves.

> Sounds beautiful.

*** it is. this time it was different. " i couldn't ride the wave, i

only gave in and let it smash me around " i accepted it, and told my

darling i was willing to die.

> >>>>> Without the thought my head hurts, I have no headache.

> >>>>>> Vivian

> >>> ok. what about the experience that you wake up in the night,

> >>> from deep sleep, cause your body is curled in spasms?

> >>> there was no thought before.

> This is not about the " before " it is about the now. You wake up.

Your

> notice your body is in a certain position, a certain part of your

> muscles is working, and did you wake up because of spasms?

*** here we continue. i have pondered about this. i cannot 100%

surely say that i woke up from the spams. it appeared to me to be

like that, compared with other nights.

i, up to now, had no new chance to check it('s reality).

> I notice you often stop at this part, anyway.

*** tell me more, please.

Find a proof or two,

> and move along.

*** i lost track. what kind of proof do u mean? that i wake up from

spasms or that pain is " pain " ?

Take your time to answer *all* of the four questions.

*** I'll be back for that as soon as it's clear to me what you mean.

> Even if it *was* true, can you see any valid reason to hold onto

it?

> Like on that is not painful? And who would you be without this

story,

> anyway? Experience that.

i will wait for your reply.

lr

>

> Love,

>

[Guest guest]

Am 13.10.2006 um 22:05 schrieb gitoros:

> Hi ,

>

> i'm back for that topic as i have had lot's of enourmous pain during

> the last days.

Is that true? And if that's too ... " spiritual " to ask, it was

enormous, is that really true? Past pain lives only in my memory.

remember how I could not move because of pain, I remember, how I

thought that I have never felt as much pain before. And it was

" enormous " . Is that really true?

how do you feel with that story? Who are you, in the moment you think

the thought, that you have a lot of pain, each whence in a while? How

do you treat people around you? How do you expect *them* to treat

you? What do you do, how do you react, when they don't treat you the

way you think they should?

Do you have any use for this thought that is not stressful? Can you

find one thing that would be better, if you could never believe this

thought again?

who would you be, in this moment, if you could not believe that you

have *ever* had pain before now? How would you live your life,

without the thought that you have had pain in the past? How would

that feel?

Turn it around.

> not even pills did work. so it's a good time to pick that up again.

I hear that the pain has to come, so that you can take care of what's

left. Thank God that you had pain, then.

> this time it was the other way round. these spasms were so intensive

> that i fell asleep really exhausted, not noticing anything during the

> sleep and came back to consciousness in the morning for a little

> while free of them. then they came back, but less intensive.

Yes, that's a shift of consciousness, if the pain becomes too much to

bear. And sometimes we're just tired.

>> wrote: > And in the moment you call it " pain " , you got a

>> story.

> well. i could call it a sting. an inner pull, a spasm. well i am

> talking about something i can report about with words. there have

> been two days this week when i said to may darling: i'ld like to

> discarnate. this time it's more than i can handle. i am talking about

> pain. a succession of sensations in this body_mind_organism that is

> not plesant but rather aching. again, i need a term, how else could i

> communicate with another human being, except from sign language?

And how do you communicate it to yourself? You can go: oh, what's that?

.... There it is! ... And it becomes less and less. ... There it

is! ... And it becomes less and less...

OR, you can go: alright! It's that pain, again, those spasms. Now,

the pain will come... now it ceases, and it will come back right

again. It's so exhausting this time. A little less than last time...

I wish it would stop. There's the pain again... It's overwhelming!

It's never been *this* bad, before!

And so on.

When you are there, notice the thoughts in between, like: " what's for

dinner " . When did he say he would come? What day is today? Oh, great!

Another bill!

and notice where the pain is, in those moments.

> so here we go. here is the ache, it's overwhelming. none of the

> helpful methods i knew from the past had helped. (i am talking about

> experience values, like after roses body had learnt to walk in early

> childhood, it didn't unlearn it. usually i draw these experience

> values and continue to experiment, this time without noticeable

> results compared with " the past " )

Yes, you compare it to what you remember, and it matches. Isn't that

astounding?

>>> i deeply learned to live with it and have really seldom any not

>>> accepting of it. i simply deal with it. i found when it is strong

>>> i

>>> withdraw from life. the stronger the pain the smaller my scope

>>> gets.

>>> i reach a point of just being without any resistance, or desire.

>>> a breathing being riding on waves.

>> Sounds beautiful.

> *** it is. this time it was different. " i couldn't ride the wave, i

> only gave in and let it smash me around " i accepted it, and told my

> darling i was willing to die.

And that's not even necessary. You don't call the odds, anyway.

>>>>>>> Without the thought my head hurts, I have no headache.

>>>>>>>> Vivian

>>>>> ok. what about the experience that you wake up in the night,

>>>>> from deep sleep, cause your body is curled in spasms?

>>>>> there was no thought before.

>> This is not about the " before " it is about the now. You wake up.

>> Your

>> notice your body is in a certain position, a certain part of your

>> muscles is working, and did you wake up because of spasms?

> *** here we continue. i have pondered about this. i cannot 100%

> surely say that i woke up from the spams. it appeared to me to be

> like that, compared with other nights.

> i, up to now, had no new chance to check it('s reality).

Yes, go on... that's a good place. The " I don't know " -position.

Doesn't it feel different, already? Who are you with the thought that

you woke up from the spasms? Who are you if you could not believe

this? If this had never taken place in your life? Would you still be

you? Or would you feel... different, now?

Could the turnaround be *as* true (I woke up from my thoughts)?

>> I notice you often stop at this part, anyway.

> *** tell me more, please.

>

>> Find a proof or two,

>> and move along.

>

> *** i lost track. what kind of proof do u mean? that i wake up from

> spasms or that pain is " pain " ?

>

>> Take your time to answer *all* of the four questions.

>

> *** I'll be back for that as soon as it's clear to me what you mean.

When you have a thought, and you inquire... well, I don't hear you

inquiring. What I hear is: " ... Is it true? Oh, well, I suppose not,

because it's what is... and I hear soandso say this, and heard of

that other thing as well and... " and you make a BIG journey with your

thoughts. I suggest to try to stay with the thought, find the

" proofs " you have, may they seem unreasonable to you now, or not. If

you didn't have *any* proofs, you would not believe the thought in

the first place. So track down your proofs and investigate them.

>> Even if it *was* true, can you see any valid reason to hold onto it?

>> Like one that is not painful? And who would you be without this

>> story, anyway? Experience that.

> i will wait for your reply.

This was for the: " is it true? yes. " -part. No need to stop if the

answer is a " yes " . Good if it's a " yes " . Good if it's a " no " . Good if

it's a " I don't know " . As long as the answer is honest.

Love,

___________________________________________________________

Telefonate ohne weitere Kosten vom PC zum PC: http://messenger.yahoo.de

[Guest guest]

Thanks for responding and hello ,

i just answer this mail, by going through it, not reading the whole

thing and then answering.

so here we go:

> > i'm back for that topic as i have had lot's of enourmous pain

during the last days.

> Is that true?

Well. there are moments when this body doesn't have spasms. and the

other way round. the last ones were immense.

> And if that's too ... " spiritual " to ask, it was

> enormous, is that really true?

well compared with the ones before, yes.

Past pain lives only in my memory.

> remember how I could not move because of pain, I remember, how I

> thought that I have never felt as much pain before. And it was

> " enormous " . Is that really true?

hm. if you talk about yourself (i remember ...) then you are talking

about yourself. (foreign_language " problem " ) if you mean rose's

thinking with it, well it was bla bla. what is the use of repeating

it. it was, what it was, when it was - at the moment it is bearable.

> how do you feel with that story?

i feel as exposed as i felt when these spasms shot in. i am checking

for passable ways/methods, for this body as well as for rose's thinking.

A: Who are you, in the moment you think the thought, that you have a

lot of pain, each whence in a while?

R: IN the moment the pain was there i was busy coping with it, mainly

with breathing and relaxing. perhaps you have experienced already that

there are moments or experiences in life which are so intensive, there

is no left or right left. you can only " go through it " . like in a fast

rollercoaster. try to step out before it's finished, (little chance

with all this force of gravity). it's like there is a " force of

spasms " (btw. that's what doctors call it)

and - second part of the last question: in the aftermath it is like

described, i'm moving along this path of " is there anything left i

could do to make it less extreme, or to cope " better " with it, the

next time?.

How

> do you treat people around you?

i try to not disturb anyone around. i withdraw if possible. as i am a

rather independend type i do as much as i can on my own.

How do you expect *them* to treat

> you?

i expect them to let me deal with the moment in the way i can. i

expect them to take care for themselves and not to move themselves

into a rescuer role.

What do you do, how do you react, when they don't treat you the

> way you think they should?

i tell them that i need free space to cope/experiment with the

situation. if neccessary i make that really clear.

>

> Do you have any use for this thought that is not stressful?

which thought?

i feel a little lost here.

which thought?

the pain should not be so immense? no that's not my starting point.

my very starting point was, pain is pain. and then vivian's (was it

a?) quote: without the thought, where is the headache?

ok. i returned to it for this bmo (bodymindorganism) experienced

immense pain. so i will take this as my sentence now.

" there was immense pain. "

Can you

> find one thing that would be better, if you could never believe this

> thought again?

hm.

?

well, it is not " here " right now. " but " it was. perhaps if you would

have done an inner filming you could have seen something contracting.

ok. like on the outside if you cut yourself with a knife you see the

limb, the knife, the cut, perhaps blood.

then you say: there was a cut.

if you then come and ask - can you find one thing that would be

better, if you never believe that thought " there was a cut " again,

what will it bring? you may even have a picture.

i tend to believe, that a cut perhaps shows me that i haven't been

careful in my behaving with the knife (or whatever the reason for the

cut was)

a spasm is pain, which can perhaps show me something. i look for that.

>

> who would you be, in this moment, if you could not believe that you

> have *ever* had pain before now?

you know, closing my eyes and let this last sentence sink in, i, fast

as a comet, am in that light space, i mentioned in one other posting.

this is nice.

How would you live your life,

> without the thought that you have had pain in the past?

again, after closing my eyes, the answer is: from that light space.

How would

> that feel?

absolutely wonderful.

>

> Turn it around.

i had immense relief. (yes)

i had no immense pain. (hm, back in the heavy zone)

my body had immense pain. (it's got nothing to do with the light, it,

didn't touch it. it only was like behind a veil)

my thinking had immense pain. (yes. for it lost the lightness)

> > not even pills did work. so it's a good time to pick that up again.

> I hear that the pain has to come, so that you can take care of what's

> left. Thank God that you had pain, then.

*** chuckling here.

> > this time it was the other way round. these spasms were so intensive

> > that i fell asleep really exhausted, not noticing anything during the

> > sleep and came back to consciousness in the morning for a little

> > while free of them. then they came back, but less intensive.

> Yes, that's a shift of consciousness, if the pain becomes too much to

> bear. And sometimes we're just tired.

yes. and sometimes we're (the body) exhausted.

>

> >> wrote: > And in the moment you call it " pain " , you got a

> >> story.

> > well. i could call it a sting. an inner pull, a spasm. well i am

> > talking about something i can report about with words. there have

> > been two days this week when i said to may darling: i'ld like to

> > discarnate. this time it's more than i can handle. i am talking about

> > pain. a succession of sensations in this body_mind_organism that is

> > not plesant but rather aching. again, i need a term, how else could i

> > communicate with another human being, except from sign language?

> And how do you communicate it to yourself? You can go: oh, what's that?

> ... There it is! ... And it becomes less and less. ... There it

> is! ... And it becomes less and less...

> OR, you can go: alright! It's that pain, again, those spasms. Now,

> the pain will come... now it ceases, and it will come back right

> again. It's so exhausting this time. A little less than last time...

> I wish it would stop. There's the pain again... It's overwhelming!

> It's never been *this* bad, before!

>

> And so on.

i tend to the first version. for it is still different in in this

surprising.

>

> When you are there, notice the thoughts in between, like: " what's for

> dinner " . When did he say he would come? What day is today? Oh, great!

> Another bill!

>

> and notice where the pain is, in those moments.

ok. i think this body will give rose a new chance for experiments like

the one you mentioned. thanks btw.

>

>

> > so here we go. here is the ache, it's overwhelming. none of the

> > helpful methods i knew from the past had helped. (i am talking about

> > experience values, like after roses body had learnt to walk in early

> > childhood, it didn't unlearn it. usually i draw these experience

> > values and continue to experiment, this time without noticeable

> > results compared with " the past " )

> Yes, you compare it to what you remember, and it matches. Isn't that

> astounding?

chuckling rose asks amused (and astound!!) alexander - did alexander's

body unlearn to walk? are you astound about it daily?

and if you're not. start with it. that's my joy when i sit and watch

people with fully functioning bodies. it's oh so marvellous. just

" normal " movements. so great!

> >>> i deeply learned to live with it and have really seldom any not

> >>> accepting of it. i simply deal with it. i found when it is strong

> >>> i

> >>> withdraw from life. the stronger the pain the smaller my scope

> >>> gets.

> >>> i reach a point of just being without any resistance, or desire.

> >>> a breathing being riding on waves.

> >> Sounds beautiful.

> > *** it is. this time it was different. " i couldn't ride the wave, i

> > only gave in and let it smash me around " i accepted it, and told

my darling i was willing to die.

> And that's not even necessary. You don't call the odds, anyway.

i could not find out " what call the odds " means.

>

> >>>>>>> Without the thought my head hurts, I have no headache.

> >>>>>>>> Vivian

> >>>>> ok. what about the experience that you wake up in the night,

> >>>>> from deep sleep, cause your body is curled in spasms?

> >>>>> there was no thought before.

> >> This is not about the " before " it is about the now. You wake up.

> >> Your

> >> notice your body is in a certain position, a certain part of your

> >> muscles is working, and did you wake up because of spasms?

> > *** here we continue. i have pondered about this. i cannot 100%

> > surely say that i woke up from the spams. it appeared to me to be

> > like that, compared with other nights.

> > i, up to now, had no new chance to check it('s reality).

> Yes, go on... that's a good place. The " I don't know " -position.

> Doesn't it feel different, already? Who are you with the thought that

> you woke up from the spasms?

***well for sure more fixed and stuck. I'll stick with that

exploration. thanks for your support. : )

Who are you if you could not believe

> this? If this had never taken place in your life? Would you still be

> you? Or would you feel... different, now?

*** aaaaah how truely wonderful! : )

>

> Could the turnaround be *as* true (I woke up from my thoughts)?

*** yes of course!

>

> >> I notice you often stop at this part, anyway.

> > *** tell me more, please.

> >

> >> Find a proof or two,

> >> and move along.

> >

> > *** i lost track. what kind of proof do u mean? that i wake up from

> > spasms or that pain is " pain " ?

> >

> >> Take your time to answer *all* of the four questions.

> >

> > *** I'll be back for that as soon as it's clear to me what you mean.

> When you have a thought, and you inquire... well, I don't hear you

> inquiring. What I hear is: " ... Is it true? Oh, well, I suppose not,

> because it's what is... and I hear soandso say this, and heard of

> that other thing as well and... " and you make a BIG journey with your

> thoughts. I suggest to try to stay with the thought, find the

> " proofs " you have, may they seem unreasonable to you now, or not. If

> you didn't have *any* proofs, you would not believe the thought in

> the first place. So track down your proofs and investigate them.

*** ok. thanks! i'll stick with this.

>

> >> Even if it *was* true, can you see any valid reason to hold onto it?

> >> Like one that is not painful? And who would you be without this

> >> story, anyway? Experience that.

> > i will wait for your reply.

> This was for the: " is it true? yes. " -part. No need to stop if the

> answer is a " yes " . Good if it's a " yes " . Good if it's a " no " . Good if

> it's a " I don't know " . As long as the answer is honest.

yes, i agree. as long as the answer is honest is a very fine last

word.

>

> Love,

>

indeed! rose

not revised

[Guest guest]

> Thanks for responding and hello ,

>

> i just answer this mail, by going through it, not reading the whole

> thing and then answering.

>

> so here we go:

>

>>> i'm back for that topic as i have had lot's of enourmous pain

>>> during the last days.

>> Is that true?

> Well. there are moments when this body doesn't have spasms. and the

> other way round. the last ones were immense.

>> And if that's too ... " spiritual " to ask, it was

>> enormous, is that really true?

> well compared with the ones before, yes.

>> Past pain lives only in my memory.

>> remember how I could not move because of pain, I remember, how I

>> thought that I have never felt as much pain before. And it was

>> " enormous " . Is that really true?

> hm. if you talk about yourself (i remember ...) then you are talking

> about yourself. (foreign_language " problem " ) if you mean rose's

> thinking with it, well it was bla bla. what is the use of repeating

> it. it was, what it was, when it was - at the moment it is bearable.

Rose, Rose, Rose...

Answer the question.

They were " enormous " . Is that really true?

how do you live, NOW, when you think you had enourmous spasm THEN?

Do you notice a difference in your life, NOW, whether you identify

yourself with the woman that HAD enormous spasms, compared to the

woman that never had ENOURMOUS spasms?

>> how do you feel with that story?

> i feel as exposed as i felt when these spasms shot in. i am checking

> for passable ways/methods, for this body as well as for rose's

> thinking.

>

> A: Who are you, in the moment you think the thought, that you have a

> lot of pain, each whence in a while?

>

> R: IN the moment the pain was there i was busy coping with it, mainly

> with breathing and relaxing. perhaps you have experienced already that

> there are moments or experiences in life which are so intensive, there

> is no left or right left. you can only " go through it " . like in a fast

> rollercoaster. try to step out before it's finished, (little chance

> with all this force of gravity). it's like there is a " force of

> spasms " (btw. that's what doctors call it)

> and - second part of the last question: in the aftermath it is like

> described, i'm moving along this path of " is there anything left i

> could do to make it less extreme, or to cope " better " with it, the

> next time?.

Ok, I don't care for the moment the pain was there, because that's

past. It's taken care of, already. It's OVER.

I care for now. You see how you could cope " better " with it, next

time...

How does that feel?

>> How do you treat people around you?

> i try to not disturb anyone around. i withdraw if possible. as i am a

> rather independend type i do as much as i can on my own.

Rose, is it possible that you treat them ANY different, as you would,

if you never had spasms, or pain?

>> How do you expect *them* to treat you?

> i expect them to let me deal with the moment in the way i can. i

> expect them to take care for themselves and not to move themselves

> into a rescuer role.

Well, what if they do move in a rescuer role? This is a different

thought.

>> What do you do, how do you react, when they don't treat you the

>> way you think they should?

> i tell them that i need free space to cope/experiment with the

> situation. if neccessary i make that really clear.

How do you do that, how does it feel, what if that doesn't work?

>> Do you have any use for this thought that is not stressful?

> which thought?

> i feel a little lost here.

> which thought?

> the pain should not be so immense? no that's not my starting point.

> my very starting point was, pain is pain. and then vivian's (was it

> a?) quote: without the thought, where is the headache?

>

> ok. i returned to it for this bmo (bodymindorganism) experienced

> immense pain. so i will take this as my sentence now.

> " there was immense pain. "

yes, enourmous pain. That's the thought.

>> Can you

>> find one thing that would be better, if you could never believe this

>> thought again?

>

> hm.

> ?

> well, it is not " here " right now. " but " it was. perhaps if you would

> have done an inner filming you could have seen something contracting.

> ok. like on the outside if you cut yourself with a knife you see the

> limb, the knife, the cut, perhaps blood.

> then you say: there was a cut.

> if you then come and ask - can you find one thing that would be

> better, if you never believe that thought " there was a cut " again,

> what will it bring? you may even have a picture.

> i tend to believe, that a cut perhaps shows me that i haven't been

> careful in my behaving with the knife (or whatever the reason for the

> cut was)

> a spasm is pain, which can perhaps show me something. i look for that.

Rose, are you interested in investigating?

>> Can you

>> find one thing that would be better, if you could never believe this

>> thought again?

This is about your THOUGHTs on the pain, not about the pain, not at all!

Are the thougths there, even when the pain is not? What does that

make you? What if those thought were NEVER there, ever again?

>> who would you be, in this moment, if you could not believe that you

>> have *ever* had pain before now?

> you know, closing my eyes and let this last sentence sink in, i, fast

> as a comet, am in that light space, i mentioned in one other posting.

> this is nice.

Ok. This sounds peaceful.

>> How would you live your life,

>> without the thought that you have had pain in the past?

> again, after closing my eyes, the answer is: from that light space.

>

>> How would that feel?

> absolutely wonderful.

So, this is who you would be NOW, if you could not believe that you

have ever had pain.

>> Turn it around.

>

> i had immense relief. (yes)

>

> i had no immense pain. (hm, back in the heavy zone)

> my body had immense pain. (it's got nothing to do with the light, it,

> didn't touch it. it only was like behind a veil)

>

> my thinking had immense pain. (yes. for it lost the lightness)

Ok, the direct turnaround that comes to me is: I did NOT have immense

pain.

For all you know, now, could that be as true, or even truer?

What about: I had immense thinking?

Didn't all of your thoughts deal with the pain?

>>> not even pills did work. so it's a good time to pick that up again.

>> I hear that the pain has to come, so that you can take care of what's

>> left. Thank God that you had pain, then.

> *** chuckling here.

>

>>> this time it was the other way round. these spasms were so intensive

>>> that i fell asleep really exhausted, not noticing anything during

>>> the

>>> sleep and came back to consciousness in the morning for a little

>>> while free of them. then they came back, but less intensive.

>> Yes, that's a shift of consciousness, if the pain becomes too much to

>> bear. And sometimes we're just tired.

> yes. and sometimes we're (the body) exhausted.

>>>> wrote: > And in the moment you call it " pain " , you got a

>>>> story.

>>> well. i could call it a sting. an inner pull, a spasm. well i am

>>> talking about something i can report about with words. there have

>>> been two days this week when i said to may darling: i'ld like to

>>> discarnate. this time it's more than i can handle. i am talking

>>> about

>>> pain. a succession of sensations in this body_mind_organism that is

>>> not plesant but rather aching. again, i need a term, how else

>>> could i

>>> communicate with another human being, except from sign language?

>> And how do you communicate it to yourself? You can go: oh, what's

>> that?

>> ... There it is! ... And it becomes less and less. ... There it

>> is! ... And it becomes less and less...

>> OR, you can go: alright! It's that pain, again, those spasms. Now,

>> the pain will come... now it ceases, and it will come back right

>> again. It's so exhausting this time. A little less than last time...

>> I wish it would stop. There's the pain again... It's overwhelming!

>> It's never been *this* bad, before!

>> And so on.

> i tend to the first version. for it is still different in in this

> surprising.

>>

>> When you are there, notice the thoughts in between, like: " what's for

>> dinner " . When did he say he would come? What day is today? Oh, great!

>> Another bill!

>>

>> and notice where the pain is, in those moments.

>

> ok. i think this body will give rose a new chance for experiments like

> the one you mentioned. thanks btw.

Good!

So now you can welcome the pain!

>>> so here we go. here is the ache, it's overwhelming. none of the

>>> helpful methods i knew from the past had helped. (i am talking about

>>> experience values, like after roses body had learnt to walk in early

>>> childhood, it didn't unlearn it. usually i draw these experience

>>> values and continue to experiment, this time without noticeable

>>> results compared with " the past " )

>> Yes, you compare it to what you remember, and it matches. Isn't that

>> astounding?

> chuckling rose asks amused (and astound!!) alexander - did alexander's

> body unlearn to walk? are you astound about it daily?

Unfortunately, not yet! ;-)

I am dealing with pain, now.

> and if you're not. start with it. that's my joy when i sit and watch

> people with fully functioning bodies. it's oh so marvellous. just

> " normal " movements. so great!

Yes, I believe you do.

>>>>> i deeply learned to live with it and have really seldom any not

>>>>> accepting of it. i simply deal with it. i found when it is strong

>>>>> i

>>>>> withdraw from life. the stronger the pain the smaller my scope

>>>>> gets.

>>>>> i reach a point of just being without any resistance, or desire.

>>>>> a breathing being riding on waves.

>>>> Sounds beautiful.

>>> *** it is. this time it was different. " i couldn't ride the wave, i

>>> only gave in and let it smash me around " i accepted it, and told

>>> my darling i was willing to die.

>> And that's not even necessary. You don't call the odds, anyway.

> i could not find out " what call the odds " means.

Death doesn't wait for you to be " d'accord " . It just comes and takes

what's rightfully his.

>>>>>>>>> Without the thought my head hurts, I have no headache.

>>>>>>>>>> Vivian

>>>>>>> ok. what about the experience that you wake up in the night,

>>>>>>> from deep sleep, cause your body is curled in spasms?

>>>>>>> there was no thought before.

>>>> This is not about the " before " it is about the now. You wake up.

>>>> Your

>>>> notice your body is in a certain position, a certain part of your

>>>> muscles is working, and did you wake up because of spasms?

>>> *** here we continue. i have pondered about this. i cannot 100%

>>> surely say that i woke up from the spams. it appeared to me to be

>>> like that, compared with other nights.

>>> i, up to now, had no new chance to check it('s reality).

>> Yes, go on... that's a good place. The " I don't know " -position.

>> Doesn't it feel different, already? Who are you with the thought that

>> you woke up from the spasms?

> ***well for sure more fixed and stuck. I'll stick with that

> exploration. thanks for your support. : )

>

>> Who are you if you could not believe

>> this? If this had never taken place in your life? Would you still be

>> you? Or would you feel... different, now?

> *** aaaaah how truely wonderful! : )

So, whatever happened, happened. It's over. When you stick to the

memory, you are the one that gives it birth, again. As long as you

don't remember, it never tool place. As far as you are concerned in

THIS moment.

>> Could the turnaround be *as* true (I woke up from my thoughts)?

> *** yes of course!

Good! How does THAT feel?

>>>> I notice you often stop at this part, anyway.

>>> *** tell me more, please.

>>>

>>>> Find a proof or two,

>>>> and move along.

>>>

>>> *** i lost track. what kind of proof do u mean? that i wake up from

>>> spasms or that pain is " pain " ?

>>>

>>>> Take your time to answer *all* of the four questions.

>>>

>>> *** I'll be back for that as soon as it's clear to me what you mean.

>> When you have a thought, and you inquire... well, I don't hear you

>> inquiring. What I hear is: " ... Is it true? Oh, well, I suppose not,

>> because it's what is... and I hear soandso say this, and heard of

>> that other thing as well and... " and you make a BIG journey with your

>> thoughts. I suggest to try to stay with the thought, find the

>> " proofs " you have, may they seem unreasonable to you now, or not. If

>> you didn't have *any* proofs, you would not believe the thought in

>> the first place. So track down your proofs and investigate them.

> *** ok. thanks! i'll stick with this.

>>>> Even if it *was* true, can you see any valid reason to hold onto

>>>> it?

>>>> Like one that is not painful? And who would you be without this

>>>> story, anyway? Experience that.

>>> i will wait for your reply.

>> This was for the: " is it true? yes. " -part. No need to stop if the

>> answer is a " yes " . Good if it's a " yes " . Good if it's a " no " . Good if

>> it's a " I don't know " . As long as the answer is honest.

> yes, i agree. as long as the answer is honest is a very fine last

> word.

Ok, you seem to get going, watch out for the times you just want to

prove your point.

Love,

___________________________________________________________

Telefonate ohne weitere Kosten vom PC zum PC: http://messenger.yahoo.de

[Guest guest]

Hi,

It seems to me if you say something such as:

I have tremendous pain.

or, I have had huge spasms recently

Nothing wrong with those. Just statements of fact and you aren't attaching to

them.

If, on the other hand, you said,

I shouldn't have any spasms.

or, My spasms don't allow me to do anything

then you would have issues that you could inquire about because you were

attaching a story to the spasms.

It's quite understandable to notice you are having painful spasms, and it would

be wonderful if you did not.

Vivian

Re: Re: observations on physical sensations (called

pain) @

> Thanks for responding and hello ,

>

> i just answer this mail, by going through it, not reading the whole

> thing and then answering.

>

> so here we go:

>

>>> i'm back for that topic as i have had lot's of enourmous pain

>>> during the last days.

>> Is that true?

> Well. there are moments when this body doesn't have spasms. and the

> other way round. the last ones were immense.

>> And if that's too ... " spiritual " to ask, it was

>> enormous, is that really true?

> well compared with the ones before, yes.

>> Past pain lives only in my memory.

>> remember how I could not move because of pain, I remember, how I

>> thought that I have never felt as much pain before. And it was

>> " enormous " . Is that really true?

> hm. if you talk about yourself (i remember ...) then you are talking

> about yourself. (foreign_language " problem " ) if you mean rose's

> thinking with it, well it was bla bla. what is the use of repeating

> it. it was, what it was, when it was - at the moment it is bearable.

Rose, Rose, Rose...

Answer the question.

They were " enormous " . Is that really true?

how do you live, NOW, when you think you had enourmous spasm THEN?

Do you notice a difference in your life, NOW, whether you identify

yourself with the woman that HAD enormous spasms, compared to the

woman that never had ENOURMOUS spasms?

>> how do you feel with that story?

> i feel as exposed as i felt when these spasms shot in. i am checking

> for passable ways/methods, for this body as well as for rose's

> thinking.

>

> A: Who are you, in the moment you think the thought, that you have a

> lot of pain, each whence in a while?

>

> R: IN the moment the pain was there i was busy coping with it, mainly

> with breathing and relaxing. perhaps you have experienced already that

> there are moments or experiences in life which are so intensive, there

> is no left or right left. you can only " go through it " . like in a fast

> rollercoaster. try to step out before it's finished, (little chance

> with all this force of gravity). it's like there is a " force of

> spasms " (btw. that's what doctors call it)

> and - second part of the last question: in the aftermath it is like

> described, i'm moving along this path of " is there anything left i

> could do to make it less extreme, or to cope " better " with it, the

> next time?.

Ok, I don't care for the moment the pain was there, because that's

past. It's taken care of, already. It's OVER.

I care for now. You see how you could cope " better " with it, next

time...

How does that feel?

>> How do you treat people around you?

> i try to not disturb anyone around. i withdraw if possible. as i am a

> rather independend type i do as much as i can on my own.

Rose, is it possible that you treat them ANY different, as you would,

if you never had spasms, or pain?

>> How do you expect *them* to treat you?

> i expect them to let me deal with the moment in the way i can. i

> expect them to take care for themselves and not to move themselves

> into a rescuer role.

Well, what if they do move in a rescuer role? This is a different

thought.

>> What do you do, how do you react, when they don't treat you the

>> way you think they should?

> i tell them that i need free space to cope/experiment with the

> situation. if neccessary i make that really clear.

How do you do that, how does it feel, what if that doesn't work?

>> Do you have any use for this thought that is not stressful?

> which thought?

> i feel a little lost here.

> which thought?

> the pain should not be so immense? no that's not my starting point.

> my very starting point was, pain is pain. and then vivian's (was it

> a?) quote: without the thought, where is the headache?

>

> ok. i returned to it for this bmo (bodymindorganism) experienced

> immense pain. so i will take this as my sentence now.

> " there was immense pain. "

yes, enourmous pain. That's the thought.

>> Can you

>> find one thing that would be better, if you could never believe this

>> thought again?

>

> hm.

> ?

> well, it is not " here " right now. " but " it was. perhaps if you would

> have done an inner filming you could have seen something contracting.

> ok. like on the outside if you cut yourself with a knife you see the

> limb, the knife, the cut, perhaps blood.

> then you say: there was a cut.

> if you then come and ask - can you find one thing that would be

> better, if you never believe that thought " there was a cut " again,

> what will it bring? you may even have a picture.

> i tend to believe, that a cut perhaps shows me that i haven't been

> careful in my behaving with the knife (or whatever the reason for the

> cut was)

> a spasm is pain, which can perhaps show me something. i look for that.

Rose, are you interested in investigating?

>> Can you

>> find one thing that would be better, if you could never believe this

>> thought again?

This is about your THOUGHTs on the pain, not about the pain, not at all!

Are the thougths there, even when the pain is not? What does that

make you? What if those thought were NEVER there, ever again?

>> who would you be, in this moment, if you could not believe that you

>> have *ever* had pain before now?

> you know, closing my eyes and let this last sentence sink in, i, fast

> as a comet, am in that light space, i mentioned in one other posting.

> this is nice.

Ok. This sounds peaceful.

>> How would you live your life,

>> without the thought that you have had pain in the past?

> again, after closing my eyes, the answer is: from that light space.

>

>> How would that feel?

> absolutely wonderful.

So, this is who you would be NOW, if you could not believe that you

have ever had pain.

>> Turn it around.

>

> i had immense relief. (yes)

>

> i had no immense pain. (hm, back in the heavy zone)

> my body had immense pain. (it's got nothing to do with the light, it,

> didn't touch it. it only was like behind a veil)

>

> my thinking had immense pain. (yes. for it lost the lightness)

Ok, the direct turnaround that comes to me is: I did NOT have immense

pain.

For all you know, now, could that be as true, or even truer?

What about: I had immense thinking?

Didn't all of your thoughts deal with the pain?

>>> not even pills did work. so it's a good time to pick that up again.

>> I hear that the pain has to come, so that you can take care of what's

>> left. Thank God that you had pain, then.

> *** chuckling here.

>

>>> this time it was the other way round. these spasms were so intensive

>>> that i fell asleep really exhausted, not noticing anything during

>>> the

>>> sleep and came back to consciousness in the morning for a little

>>> while free of them. then they came back, but less intensive.

>> Yes, that's a shift of consciousness, if the pain becomes too much to

>> bear. And sometimes we're just tired.

> yes. and sometimes we're (the body) exhausted.

>>>> wrote: > And in the moment you call it " pain " , you got a

>>>> story.

>>> well. i could call it a sting. an inner pull, a spasm. well i am

>>> talking about something i can report about with words. there have

>>> been two days this week when i said to may darling: i'ld like to

>>> discarnate. this time it's more than i can handle. i am talking

>>> about

>>> pain. a succession of sensations in this body_mind_organism that is

>>> not plesant but rather aching. again, i need a term, how else

>>> could i

>>> communicate with another human being, except from sign language?

>> And how do you communicate it to yourself? You can go: oh, what's

>> that?

>> ... There it is! ... And it becomes less and less. ... There it

>> is! ... And it becomes less and less...

>> OR, you can go: alright! It's that pain, again, those spasms. Now,

>> the pain will come... now it ceases, and it will come back right

>> again. It's so exhausting this time. A little less than last time...

>> I wish it would stop. There's the pain again... It's overwhelming!

>> It's never been *this* bad, before!

>> And so on.

> i tend to the first version. for it is still different in in this

> surprising.

>>

>> When you are there, notice the thoughts in between, like: " what's for

>> dinner " . When did he say he would come? What day is today? Oh, great!

>> Another bill!

>>

>> and notice where the pain is, in those moments.

>

> ok. i think this body will give rose a new chance for experiments like

> the one you mentioned. thanks btw.

Good!

So now you can welcome the pain!

>>> so here we go. here is the ache, it's overwhelming. none of the

>>> helpful methods i knew from the past had helped. (i am talking about

>>> experience values, like after roses body had learnt to walk in early

>>> childhood, it didn't unlearn it. usually i draw these experience

>>> values and continue to experiment, this time without noticeable

>>> results compared with " the past " )

>> Yes, you compare it to what you remember, and it matches. Isn't that

>> astounding?

> chuckling rose asks amused (and astound!!) alexander - did alexander's

> body unlearn to walk? are you astound about it daily?

Unfortunately, not yet! ;-)

I am dealing with pain, now.

> and if you're not. start with it. that's my joy when i sit and watch

> people with fully functioning bodies. it's oh so marvellous. just

> " normal " movements. so great!

Yes, I believe you do.

>>>>> i deeply learned to live with it and have really seldom any not

>>>>> accepting of it. i simply deal with it. i found when it is strong

>>>>> i

>>>>> withdraw from life. the stronger the pain the smaller my scope

>>>>> gets.

>>>>> i reach a point of just being without any resistance, or desire.

>>>>> a breathing being riding on waves.

>>>> Sounds beautiful.

>>> *** it is. this time it was different. " i couldn't ride the wave, i

>>> only gave in and let it smash me around " i accepted it, and told

>>> my darling i was willing to die.

>> And that's not even necessary. You don't call the odds, anyway.

> i could not find out " what call the odds " means.

Death doesn't wait for you to be " d'accord " . It just comes and takes

what's rightfully his.

>>>>>>>>> Without the thought my head hurts, I have no headache.

>>>>>>>>>> Vivian

>>>>>>> ok. what about the experience that you wake up in the night,

>>>>>>> from deep sleep, cause your body is curled in spasms?

>>>>>>> there was no thought before.

>>>> This is not about the " before " it is about the now. You wake up.

>>>> Your

>>>> notice your body is in a certain position, a certain part of your

>>>> muscles is working, and did you wake up because of spasms?

>>> *** here we continue. i have pondered about this. i cannot 100%

>>> surely say that i woke up from the spams. it appeared to me to be

>>> like that, compared with other nights.

>>> i, up to now, had no new chance to check it('s reality).

>> Yes, go on... that's a good place. The " I don't know " -position.

>> Doesn't it feel different, already? Who are you with the thought that

>> you woke up from the spasms?

> ***well for sure more fixed and stuck. I'll stick with that

> exploration. thanks for your support. : )

>

>> Who are you if you could not believe

>> this? If this had never taken place in your life? Would you still be

>> you? Or would you feel... different, now?

> *** aaaaah how truely wonderful! : )

So, whatever happened, happened. It's over. When you stick to the

memory, you are the one that gives it birth, again. As long as you

don't remember, it never tool place. As far as you are concerned in

THIS moment.

>> Could the turnaround be *as* true (I woke up from my thoughts)?

> *** yes of course!

Good! How does THAT feel?

>>>> I notice you often stop at this part, anyway.

>>> *** tell me more, please.

>>>

>>>> Find a proof or two,

>>>> and move along.

>>>

>>> *** i lost track. what kind of proof do u mean? that i wake up from

>>> spasms or that pain is " pain " ?

>>>

>>>> Take your time to answer *all* of the four questions.

>>>

>>> *** I'll be back for that as soon as it's clear to me what you mean.

>> When you have a thought, and you inquire... well, I don't hear you

>> inquiring. What I hear is: " ... Is it true? Oh, well, I suppose not,

>> because it's what is... and I hear soandso say this, and heard of

>> that other thing as well and... " and you make a BIG journey with your

>> thoughts. I suggest to try to stay with the thought, find the

>> " proofs " you have, may they seem unreasonable to you now, or not. If

>> you didn't have *any* proofs, you would not believe the thought in

>> the first place. So track down your proofs and investigate them.

> *** ok. thanks! i'll stick with this.

>>>> Even if it *was* true, can you see any valid reason to hold onto

>>>> it?

>>>> Like one that is not painful? And who would you be without this

>>>> story, anyway? Experience that.

>>> i will wait for your reply.

>> This was for the: " is it true? yes. " -part. No need to stop if the

>> answer is a " yes " . Good if it's a " yes " . Good if it's a " no " . Good if

>> it's a " I don't know " . As long as the answer is honest.

> yes, i agree. as long as the answer is honest is a very fine last

> word.

Ok, you seem to get going, watch out for the times you just want to

prove your point.

Love,

__________________________________________________________

Telefonate ohne weitere Kosten vom PC zum PC: http://messenger.yahoo.de

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

gonna cut out as much as possible, quite bulky now, this posting.

> They were " enormous " . Is that really true?

>

> how do you live, NOW, when you think you had enourmous spasm THEN?

in a kind of pulled sidewards. out of balance, out of lightness.

> Do you notice a difference in your life, NOW, whether you identify

yourself with the woman that HAD enormous spasms, compared to the

> woman that never had ENOURMOUS spasms?

yes i do.

> Ok, I don't care for the moment the pain was there, because

that's

> past. It's taken care of, already. It's OVER.

i agree.

>

> I care for now. You see how you could cope " better " with it, next

> time...

> How does that feel?

right in this moment, reading your last line, i sense tension in my

head.

>

> >> How do you treat people around you?

> > i try to not disturb anyone around. i withdraw if possible. as i

am a

> > rather independend type i do as much as i can on my own.

> Rose, is it possible that you treat them ANY different, as you

would, if you never had spasms, or pain?

i cannot say that for sure. i don't know. i would have to watch this.

>

> >> How do you expect *them* to treat you?

> > i expect them to let me deal with the moment in the way i can. i

> > expect them to take care for themselves and not to move

themselves

> > into a rescuer role.

> Well, what if they do move in a rescuer role?

i'll take it or refuse it (it is their helpoffering)

> This is a different

> thought.

do you mean for a new work? (the more independend i am the better

for me and all those around me. i still can receive help if i want

to have it easier, and i do ask for it. but to have my own muscles

and as much equipent as possible/neccessary within reach,

makes/leaves both sides freer.)

> >> What do you do, how do you react, when they don't treat you the

> >> way you think they should?

> > i tell them that i need free space to cope/experiment with the

> > situation. if neccessary i make that really clear.

> How do you do that, how does it feel, what if that doesn't work?

well, it usually works.

i really have to think hard, about times when it doesn't work.

and i notice in this hard thinking that it has always worked around

the spasm setting.

outside of the spasm setting it has happend that people tried

to " help " me in a way i didn't want it. but that would bring up a

new framework here, so i leave it aside to not spread this work.

(not to avoit looking at something. ok? well ok for me at this

moment)

> yes, enourmous pain. That's the thought.

> Rose, are you interested in investigating?

>

> >> Can you

> >> find one thing that would be better, if you could never believe

this

> >> thought again?

> This is about your THOUGHTs on the pain, not about the pain, not

at all!

i see and agree.

> Are the thougths there, even when the pain is not?

well. at the moment i'm going through this work and do not think

about pain. before there have been thoughts about pain, without

having it at that specific moment.

> What does that

> make you?

in the now - i feel fine.

in the " past " i felt ...

hm.

interesting. can't quite remember in this moment. could invent a

story, but it would be a " fantasielike " story. so i'll drop that.

ok?

again. ok, for me.

> What if those thought were NEVER there, ever again?

very fine!

>

> >> who would you be, in this moment, if you could not believe that

you have *ever* had pain before now?

> > you know, closing my eyes and let this last sentence sink in, i,

fast as a comet, am in that light space, i mentioned in one other

posting.

> > this is nice.

> Ok. This sounds peaceful.

yes! it is.

> >> How would you live your life,

> >> without the thought that you have had pain in the past?

> > again, after closing my eyes, the answer is: from that light

space.

> >

> >> How would that feel?

> > absolutely wonderful.

> So, this is who you would be NOW, if you could not believe that

you have ever had pain.

yes i agree. it feels very good (to me).

> >> Turn it around.

> >

> > i had immense relief. (yes)

> >

> > i had no immense pain. (hm, back in the heavy zone)

> > my body had immense pain. (it's got nothing to do with the

light, it,

> > didn't touch it. it only was like behind a veil)

> >

> > my thinking had immense pain. (yes. for it lost the lightness)

> Ok, the direct turnaround that comes to me is: I did NOT have

immense pain.

> For all you know, now, could that be as true, or even truer?

hoo. after closing my eyes and being with what you wrote i can state

this:

i " have " (had) memories of these " spasm shots " , and me dealing with

them. like seen from the outside. like memories of a movie.

if i don't connect with the term " pain " in my mind i stay in that

light space. even while watching that " movie " .

from that space, i find, i have no connection to that pain in this

NOW.

>

> What about: I had immense thinking?

>

> Didn't all of your thoughts deal with the pain?

i can't really say that for sure. i would have to really be in

that " past " moment again. in this now i cannot answer it.

> So now you can welcome the pain!

yes.

> chuckling rose asks amused (and astound!!) alexander - did

alexander's body unlearn to walk? are you astound about it daily?

> Unfortunately, not yet! ;-)

: )

> I am dealing with pain, now.

??? your's or mine?

> >> And that's not even necessary. You don't call the odds, anyway.

> > i could not find out " what call the odds " means.

> Death doesn't wait for you to be " d'accord " . It just comes and

takes what's rightfully his.

oh.

>> Who are you if you could not believe

> >> this? If this had never taken place in your life? Would you

still be you? Or would you feel... different, now?

> > *** aaaaah how truely wonderful! : )

> So, whatever happened, happened. It's over. When you stick to the

> memory, you are the one that gives it birth, again.

i agree.

ha ha. it's " to me " like an " unneccessary habit " now. too funny. ;~\

As long as you don't remember, it never tool place. As far as you

are concerned in THIS moment.

yes. according to the experience of this work, yes. .

> >> Could the turnaround be *as* true (I woke up from my thoughts)?

> > *** yes of course!

> Good! How does THAT feel?

free.

> Ok, you seem to get going, watch out for the times you just want

to prove your point.

ok. i will watch out for times when my mind just wants to prove it's

point.

and do you see that my mind differentiates between investigation and

proving a point?

> Love,

>

Love, r

not revised

[Guest guest]

there is something interesting about this.

this " being blanc " (in my mind) as i experienced it during that work

several times was something i used to consider as an indicator for

something that is " supressed " or hidden. like unresolved stuff.

well - this time i sensed it rather differently. have a little

difficulties in finding matching terms.

cannot really find them.

anyway it was - is - very fine.

thanks alexander! lr

[Guest guest]

Dear r,

>> They were " enormous " . Is that really true?

>> how do you live, NOW, when you think you had enourmous spasm THEN?

> in a kind of pulled sidewards. out of balance, out of lightness.

>

>> Do you notice a difference in your life, NOW, whether you identify

>> yourself with the woman that HAD enormous spasms, compared to the

>> woman that never had ENOURMOUS spasms?

> yes i do.

Ok, what we see is that the actual spasms don't have anything to do

with this difference.

>> Ok, I don't care for the moment the pain was there, because

>> that's past. It's taken care of, already. It's OVER.

> i agree.

>> I care for now. You see how you could cope " better " with it, next

>> time... How does that feel?

> right in this moment, reading your last line, i sense tension in my

> head.

Good. This is what the thought does.

It is important to differentiate between the spasms, the coping with

the spasms and the *thoughts* about the spasms and the coping with

the spasms.

Sometimes, I'd rather hold onto the thought, because I fear change

that could take place, if I questioned it. So I restrain from

investigating.

Whenever I *don't* question a thought it might be worth taking a

closer look.

>>>> How do you treat people around you?

>>> i try to not disturb anyone around. i withdraw if possible. as i

>>> am a

>>> rather independend type i do as much as i can on my own.

>> Rose, is it possible that you treat them ANY different, as you

>> would, if you never had spasms, or pain?

> i cannot say that for sure. i don't know. i would have to watch this.

Yes, do that.

>>>> How do you expect *them* to treat you?

>>> i expect them to let me deal with the moment in the way i can. i

>>> expect them to take care for themselves and not to move

>>> themselves

>>> into a rescuer role.

>> Well, what if they do move in a rescuer role?

> i'll take it or refuse it (it is their help offering)

I was thinking of people who don't just " offer " . Take my mother: she

asks if I want something, and if I say " no, thanks " she gives it to

me, anyway. Sometimes it is salt, sometimes a pullover, sometimes

something else I don't want.

>> This is a different

>> thought.

> do you mean for a new work? (the more independend i am the better

> for me and all those around me. i still can receive help if i want

> to have it easier, and i do ask for it. but to have my own muscles

> and as much equipent as possible/neccessary within reach,

> makes/leaves both sides freer.)

Well, it's another story you are running. You could inquire, or not.

It does not investigate your former thought, it's an explanation or a

justification.

For me it is a moving away from the current investigation.

>>>> What do you do, how do you react, when they don't treat you the

>>>> way you think they should?

>>> i tell them that i need free space to cope/experiment with the

>>> situation. if neccessary i make that really clear.

>> How do you do that, how does it feel, what if that doesn't work?

> well, it usually works.

> i really have to think hard, about times when it doesn't work.

> and i notice in this hard thinking that it has always worked around

> the spasm setting.

> outside of the spasm setting it has happend that people tried

> to " help " me in a way i didn't want it. but that would bring up a

> new framework here, so i leave it aside to not spread this work.

> (not to avoit looking at something. ok? well ok for me at this

> moment)

Yes, if it's ok for you...

It's about how you react around people who want to " help " you, and

*could* have to do with your identification. Like: if they didn't

know you had spasms, they might not be as helpful. How do you talk

about your spasms? Even if you don't have them? I am not saying this

is the case with you, but for me it could help getting attention or

affection, wich I could be afraid of loosing.

>>> yes, enourmous pain. That's the thought.

>

>> Rose, are you interested in investigating?

>>

>>>> Can you

>>>> find one thing that would be better, if you could never believe

>>>> this

>>>> thought again?

>> This is about your THOUGHTs on the pain, not about the pain, not

>> at all!

> i see and agree.

>

>> Are the thougths there, even when the pain is not?

> well. at the moment i'm going through this work and do not think

> about pain. before there have been thoughts about pain, without

> having it at that specific moment.

Ok, could that be a reason to let the thought go?

>> What does that

>> make you?

> in the now - i feel fine.

> in the " past " i felt ...

> hm.

> interesting. can't quite remember in this moment. could invent a

> story, but it would be a " fantasielike " story. so i'll drop that.

> ok?

> again. ok, for me.

Good! If it works for you!

>> What if those thought were NEVER there, ever again?

> very fine!

Interesting!

>>>> who would you be, in this moment, if you could not believe that

>>>> you have *ever* had pain before now?

> you know, closing my eyes and let this last sentence sink in, i,

> fast as a comet, am in that light space, i mentioned in one other

> posting.

Yes

>>> this is nice.

>> Ok. This sounds peaceful.

> yes! it is.

>

>>>> How would you live your life,

>>>> without the thought that you have had pain in the past?

>>> again, after closing my eyes, the answer is: from that light

>>> space.

>>>> How would that feel?

>>> absolutely wonderful.

>> So, this is who you would be NOW, if you could not believe that

>> you have ever had pain.

> yes i agree. it feels very good (to me).

>

>>>> Turn it around.

>>> i had immense relief. (yes)

>>> i had no immense pain. (hm, back in the heavy zone)

>>> my body had immense pain. (it's got nothing to do with the

>>> light, it,

>>> didn't touch it. it only was like behind a veil)

>>> my thinking had immense pain. (yes. for it lost the lightness)

>> Ok, the direct turnaround that comes to me is: I did NOT have

>> immense pain.

>

>> For all you know, now, could that be as true, or even truer?

> hoo. after closing my eyes and being with what you wrote i can state

> this:

> i " have " (had) memories of these " spasm shots " , and me dealing with

> them. like seen from the outside. like memories of a movie.

> if i don't connect with the term " pain " in my mind i stay in that

> light space. even while watching that " movie " .

> from that space, i find, i have no connection to that pain in this

> NOW.

Good! And you know what? As soon as pain happens, it IS memory!

>> What about: I had immense thinking?

>>

>> Didn't all of your thoughts deal with the pain?

> i can't really say that for sure. i would have to really be in

> that " past " moment again. in this now i cannot answer it.

Sounds *very* Good!

>> So now you can welcome the pain!

> yes.

>

>>> chuckling rose asks amused (and astound!!) alexander - did

>>> alexander's body unlearn to walk? are you astound about it daily?

>> Unfortunately, not yet! ;-)

> : )

>

>> I am dealing with pain, now.

> ??? your's or mine?

Mine. It's interesting observing how it leaves...

And how thoughts about pain hurt more than pain itself.

>>>> And that's not even necessary. You don't call the odds, anyway.

>>> i could not find out " what call the odds " means.

>> Death doesn't wait for you to be " d'accord " . It just comes and

>> takes what's rightfully his.

> oh.

great news, huh? ;-)

>>>> Who are you if you could not believe

>>>> this? If this had never taken place in your life? Would you

>>>> still be you? Or would you feel... different, now?

>>> *** aaaaah how truely wonderful! : )

>> So, whatever happened, happened. It's over. When you stick to the

>> memory, you are the one that gives it birth, again.

> i agree.

> ha ha. it's " to me " like an " unneccessary habit " now. too funny. ;~\

>

>> As long as you don't remember, it never tool place. As far as you

>> are concerned in THIS moment.

> yes. according to the experience of this work, yes.

>

>>>> Could the turnaround be *as* true (I woke up from my thoughts)?

>>> *** yes of course!

>> Good! How does THAT feel?

> free.

>

>> Ok, you seem to get going, watch out for the times you just want

>> to prove your point.

> ok. i will watch out for times when my mind just wants to prove it's

> point.

>

> and do you see that my mind differentiates between investigation and

> proving a point?

How could I see your mind??

Love,

___________________________________________________________

Telefonate ohne weitere Kosten vom PC zum PC: http://messenger.yahoo.de

[Guest guest]

--dear rose

when i have a charlie horse type spasm in my leg it helps to

get up and walk.. and i realize you cant.. so i wonder if someone

were to rub your leg.. would that help or make it worse.

I would think it would not be a bother to help you..

that much..Your giving someone an opportunity to help..

love, roslyn

- In Loving-what-is , " gitoros " wrote:

>

> Hi ,

>

> gonna cut out as much as possible, quite bulky now, this posting.

>

> > They were " enormous " . Is that really true?

> >

> > how do you live, NOW, when you think you had enourmous spasm THEN?

>

> in a kind of pulled sidewards. out of balance, out of lightness.

>

> > Do you notice a difference in your life, NOW, whether you

identify

> yourself with the woman that HAD enormous spasms, compared to the

> > woman that never had ENOURMOUS spasms?

>

> yes i do.

>

>

> > Ok, I don't care for the moment the pain was there, because

> that's

> > past. It's taken care of, already. It's OVER.

>

> i agree.

> >

> > I care for now. You see how you could cope " better " with it,

next

> > time...

> > How does that feel?

>

> right in this moment, reading your last line, i sense tension in my

> head.

> >

> > >> How do you treat people around you?

> > > i try to not disturb anyone around. i withdraw if possible. as

i

> am a

> > > rather independend type i do as much as i can on my own.

> > Rose, is it possible that you treat them ANY different, as you

> would, if you never had spasms, or pain?

>

> i cannot say that for sure. i don't know. i would have to watch

this.

> >

> > >> How do you expect *them* to treat you?

> > > i expect them to let me deal with the moment in the way i can. i

> > > expect them to take care for themselves and not to move

> themselves

> > > into a rescuer role.

> > Well, what if they do move in a rescuer role?

>

> i'll take it or refuse it (it is their helpoffering)

>

> > This is a different

> > thought.

>

> do you mean for a new work? (the more independend i am the better

> for me and all those around me. i still can receive help if i want

> to have it easier, and i do ask for it. but to have my own muscles

> and as much equipent as possible/neccessary within reach,

> makes/leaves both sides freer.)

>

>

> > >> What do you do, how do you react, when they don't treat you the

> > >> way you think they should?

> > > i tell them that i need free space to cope/experiment with the

> > > situation. if neccessary i make that really clear.

> > How do you do that, how does it feel, what if that doesn't work?

>

> well, it usually works.

> i really have to think hard, about times when it doesn't work.

> and i notice in this hard thinking that it has always worked around

> the spasm setting.

> outside of the spasm setting it has happend that people tried

> to " help " me in a way i didn't want it. but that would bring up a

> new framework here, so i leave it aside to not spread this work.

> (not to avoit looking at something. ok? well ok for me at this

> moment)

>

> > yes, enourmous pain. That's the thought.

>

> > Rose, are you interested in investigating?

> >

> > >> Can you

> > >> find one thing that would be better, if you could never

believe

> this

> > >> thought again?

> > This is about your THOUGHTs on the pain, not about the pain, not

> at all!

>

> i see and agree.

>

> > Are the thougths there, even when the pain is not?

>

> well. at the moment i'm going through this work and do not think

> about pain. before there have been thoughts about pain, without

> having it at that specific moment.

>

> > What does that

> > make you?

>

> in the now - i feel fine.

> in the " past " i felt ...

> hm.

> interesting. can't quite remember in this moment. could invent a

> story, but it would be a " fantasielike " story. so i'll drop that.

> ok?

> again. ok, for me.

>

>

> > What if those thought were NEVER there, ever again?

>

> very fine!

>

>

> >

> > >> who would you be, in this moment, if you could not believe

that

> you have *ever* had pain before now?

> > > you know, closing my eyes and let this last sentence sink in,

i,

> fast as a comet, am in that light space, i mentioned in one other

> posting.

> > > this is nice.

> > Ok. This sounds peaceful.

>

> yes! it is.

>

> > >> How would you live your life,

> > >> without the thought that you have had pain in the past?

> > > again, after closing my eyes, the answer is: from that light

> space.

> > >

> > >> How would that feel?

> > > absolutely wonderful.

> > So, this is who you would be NOW, if you could not believe that

> you have ever had pain.

>

> yes i agree. it feels very good (to me).

>

> > >> Turn it around.

> > >

> > > i had immense relief. (yes)

> > >

> > > i had no immense pain. (hm, back in the heavy zone)

> > > my body had immense pain. (it's got nothing to do with the

> light, it,

> > > didn't touch it. it only was like behind a veil)

> > >

> > > my thinking had immense pain. (yes. for it lost the lightness)

> > Ok, the direct turnaround that comes to me is: I did NOT have

> immense pain.

>

> > For all you know, now, could that be as true, or even truer?

>

> hoo. after closing my eyes and being with what you wrote i can

state

> this:

> i " have " (had) memories of these " spasm shots " , and me dealing with

> them. like seen from the outside. like memories of a movie.

> if i don't connect with the term " pain " in my mind i stay in that

> light space. even while watching that " movie " .

> from that space, i find, i have no connection to that pain in this

> NOW.

>

> >

> > What about: I had immense thinking?

> >

> > Didn't all of your thoughts deal with the pain?

>

> i can't really say that for sure. i would have to really be in

> that " past " moment again. in this now i cannot answer it.

>

>

> > So now you can welcome the pain!

>

> yes.

>

> > chuckling rose asks amused (and astound!!) alexander - did

> alexander's body unlearn to walk? are you astound about it daily?

> > Unfortunately, not yet! ;-)

>

> : )

>

> > I am dealing with pain, now.

>

> ??? your's or mine?

>

> > >> And that's not even necessary. You don't call the odds, anyway.

> > > i could not find out " what call the odds " means.

> > Death doesn't wait for you to be " d'accord " . It just comes and

> takes what's rightfully his.

>

> oh.

>

> >> Who are you if you could not believe

> > >> this? If this had never taken place in your life? Would you

> still be you? Or would you feel... different, now?

> > > *** aaaaah how truely wonderful! : )

> > So, whatever happened, happened. It's over. When you stick to

the

> > memory, you are the one that gives it birth, again.

>

> i agree.

> ha ha. it's " to me " like an " unneccessary habit " now. too funny. ;~\

>

> As long as you don't remember, it never tool place. As far as you

> are concerned in THIS moment.

>

> yes. according to the experience of this work, yes. .

>

>

>

> > >> Could the turnaround be *as* true (I woke up from my thoughts)?

> > > *** yes of course!

> > Good! How does THAT feel?

>

> free.

>

> > Ok, you seem to get going, watch out for the times you just want

> to prove your point.

>

> ok. i will watch out for times when my mind just wants to prove

it's

> point.

>

> and do you see that my mind differentiates between investigation

and

> proving a point?

>

> > Love,

> >

>

> Love, r

>

> not revised

>

[Guest guest]

dear roslyn

thanks for caring and sharing. these spasms are a sideeffect of the

injury. i can't rule them somewhat with medication and food,

squeezing the body or hot waterbottles. it's not a problem for me to

ask for help.

it's just, e.g. in the middle of the night, i willnot ask my darling

to get up and get me a hot water bottle. i want him to have his sleep

and refreshment from it, so i am as quiet as possible.

my people are helping me as much as nesseccary. We're making a lot of

jokes about that cumbersomenly kind of living. ; )

lr

> --dear rose

> when i have a charlie horse type spasm in my leg it helps to

> get up and walk.. and i realize you cant.. so i wonder if someone

> were to rub your leg.. would that help or make it worse.

> I would think it would not be a bother to help you..

> that much..Your giving someone an opportunity to help..

> love, roslyn

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

A: > >> Do you notice a difference in your life, NOW, whether you

identify yourself with the woman that HAD enormous spasms, compared

to the woman that never had ENOURMOUS spasms?

R: > > yes i do.

>

A: > Ok, what we see is that the actual spasms don't have anything

to do with this difference.

R: these spasms are there, no matter with " whom " " i " identify.

>

> >> Ok, I don't care for the moment the pain was there, because

> >> that's past. It's taken care of, already. It's OVER.

> > i agree.

>

> >> I care for now. You see how you could cope " better " with it,

next

> >> time... How does that feel?

> > right in this moment, reading your last line, i sense tension in

my

> > head.

> Good. This is what the thought does.

***yes

>

> It is important to differentiate between the spasms, the coping

with the spasms and the *thoughts* about the spasms and the coping

with the spasms.

*** i agree. it is useful for clear inquiry.

>

> Sometimes, I'd rather hold onto the thought, because I fear change

> that could take place, if I questioned it. So I restrain from

> investigating.

> Whenever I *don't* question a thought it might be worth taking a

> closer look.

*** i agree.

> >>>> How do you treat people around you?

> >>> i try to not disturb anyone around. i withdraw if possible. as

i am a rather independend type i do as much as i can on my own.

> >> Rose, is it possible that you treat them ANY different, as you

> >> would, if you never had spasms, or pain?

> > i cannot say that for sure. i don't know. i would have to watch

this.

> Yes, do that.

*** well i haven't had the chance to observe it in the meantime.

when i tune into it, i can state that i (generally spoken) have

noticed a big difference in the interaction with people

in " situations " when i came from sheer being, compared to " coming

from this thought or that thought " .

> >>>> How do you expect *them* to treat you?

> >>> i expect them to let me deal with the moment in the way i can.

i

> >>> expect them to take care for themselves and not to move

> >>> themselves

> >>> into a rescuer role.

> >> Well, what if they do move in a rescuer role?

> > i'll take it or refuse it (it is their help offering)

> I was thinking of people who don't just " offer " .

*** you didn't say that

Take my mother: she asks if I want something, and if I say " no,

thanks " she gives it to me, anyway. Sometimes it is salt, sometimes

a pullover, sometimes something else I don't want.

***ok.

do you mean people which don't listen to my words, or signals?

staying in the example you have given: well, there is a trashbox or

compost on this property, for things i don't want. there are people

which need that food/pullover, so i pass it on to them. if it is

words, they give, i sometimes listen, sometimes not.

in the hospital the nurse stuff still was - as far as i could

observe it - reliefed to have a selfsufficient patient.

i met four people in the stuff, which were " overwhelming " and being

with them, i was feeling more or less exposed. two i had no choice

to change, or controll anything. that was on the intensive care unit.

one nurse was in the next after that " level " unit. and one was the

leader of the unit where i did my reha-process. there i was able to

avoid getting nursed by her. that's what i did. to the three of

before, i was just as less vivid as possible.

you know, when a mother comes and gives you a sweater you don't

want, that's a different thing compared to a doctor that want to

give you an injection you definetly don't want. his reasons might be

very different to the ones of your mother. my behaviour is depending

on the motivation.

if my mother want's to be motherly, because it makes her

feel " needed " or " a nice person " or ... . that is a different game,

compared to a doctor that want's to make money by injekting you.

>

> >> This is a different

> >> thought.

> > do you mean for a new work? (the more independend i am the better

> > for me and all those around me. i still can receive help if i

want

> > to have it easier, and i do ask for it. but to have my own

muscles

> > and as much equipent as possible/neccessary within reach,

> > makes/leaves both sides freer.)

> Well, it's another story you are running. You could inquire, or

not.

***come on boy. imagine your kids would always have stayed babies.

not walking, not able to dress themselves ...

if you could chose, would you like them to stay babies, or

pedestrians?

that's what i'm talking about.

i don't need people around me which are running the game of: i need

you to be in need to feel needed/important myself.

> It does not investigate your former thought, it's an explanation

or a justification.

*** right. i will go back to the former thought.

> For me it is a moving away from the current investigation.

*** yep. i am an autodidact with the work. i still believe sometimes

that some additions would make the thing easier to " comprehend " that

believe is getting thin and thinner. so! there's " hope " )

>

> It's about how you react around people who want to " help " you, and

> *could* have to do with your identification.

*** you mean the identification of being a woman in spasms?

Like: if they didn't

> know you had spasms, they might not be as helpful.

*** well, if i need help i ask for it. it will be given or not. for

whatever reasons (on the side of the " helper " )

How do you talk

> about your spasms?

*** in a reporting way. (at least that's what i believe to do,

or/and aspire.)

Even if you don't have them? I am not saying this

> is the case with you, but for me it could help getting attention

or

> affection, wich I could be afraid of loosing.

*** are you talking about the game of " oh i am such a poor darling,

give me your attention? " that's not a game i am into.

i ask for help, if i NEED it. when i get it fine. sometimes i am

offered help, i could even use for this body. but if i sense,

the " offerer " is already rather loaded, i don't take it. i tend to

love the people around me. and i am aware that it could be of more

help to let them run their programm and finally one day sense what

it does, but i also sense love in the offer of my end to say the

offerer: what about taking a closer look, is it really good for you -

wanting me to help, as exhausted as you already are?

[...]

> >> Are the thougths there, even when the pain is not?

> > well. at the moment i'm going through this work and do not think

> > about pain. before there have been thoughts about pain, without

> > having it at that specific moment.

> Ok, could that be a reason to let the thought go?

*** yes.

> >> What does that

> >> make you?

> > in the now - i feel fine.

> > in the " past " i felt ...

> > hm.

> > interesting. can't quite remember in this moment. could invent a

> > story, but it would be a " fantasielike " story. so i'll drop that.

> > ok?

> > again. ok, for me.

> Good! If it works for you!

*** : )

>

> >> What if those thought were NEVER there, ever again?

> > very fine!

> Interesting!

*** :-) yes.

> >>>> who would you be, in this moment, if you could not believe

that

> >>>> you have *ever* had pain before now?

> > you know, closing my eyes and let this last sentence sink in, i,

> > fast as a comet, am in that light space, i mentioned in one other

> > posting.

> Yes

*** yes

>

[...]

> >> For all you know, now, could that be as true, or even truer?

> > hoo. after closing my eyes and being with what you wrote i can >

> > state this: i " have " (had) memories of these " spasm shots " , and

> > me dealing with them. like seen from the outside. like memories

> > of a movie.

> > if i don't connect with the term " pain " in my mind i stay in that

> > light space. even while watching that " movie " .

> > from that space, i find, i have no connection to that pain in

> > this NOW.

> Good! And you know what? As soon as pain happens, it IS memory!

ok. i hear that. would you like to say some more words about that?

or, let me ask, did you have brain science in the back of your mind,

while writing this?

> >> What about: I had immense thinking?

> >>

> >> Didn't all of your thoughts deal with the pain?

> > i can't really say that for sure. i would have to really be in

> > that " past " moment again. in this now i cannot answer it.

> Sounds *very* Good!

*** yes!

[...]

A: > >> I am dealing with pain, now.

R: > > ??? your's or mine?

A: > Mine. It's interesting observing how it leaves...

>

> And how thoughts about pain hurt more than pain itself.

*** I'll try to observe that, in case there comes an opportunity.

>

> >>>> And that's not even necessary. You don't call the odds,

anyway.

> >>> i could not find out " what call the odds " means.

> >> Death doesn't wait for you to be " d'accord " . It just comes and

> >> takes what's rightfully his.

> > oh.

> great news, huh? ;-)

*** well! sounds like great philosophy )

*** " death " and dying is familiar to me.

> > and do you see that my mind differentiates between investigation

and proving a point?

> How could I see your mind??

*** well i was asking about your mind not your mind on my mind.

thank you for working with me. i receive/d your gift.

love, r

not revised