A long Quote... warning Radical Happiness book

[Guest guest]

I love this book Radical Happiness by Lake

She sounds like KAtie..

page 35

" .....The mind creates the me through thought. Before thought, there

was no egoic self, only the Self . This birth of the me is the cause

of suffering. The two go hand in hand . The me and its story is about

separation, and separation is painful Anytime the focus is on the me,

we suffer, whether the me is being painted positively or negatively.

WE suffer not only because we make ourselves separate from others

but because we make ourselves separate from the SElf. However, this

suffering is not a mistake; it is part of the Selfs plan too.

Suffering is what wakes us up out of the egoic state of consciousness.

It is not only grist for the egoic selfs mill but a prod to awaken us

to our true nature. Suffering Is not a mistake.

(Im reminded of who says she sees the value in suffering )

Suffering is the result of our programming. (scientology calls it

our reactive mind ) WE are programmed with a mind that generates

thoughts ( including the me thought) , which cause suffering. However,

we are also given a way out of suffering. Life is like a puzzle: WE

are being asked to find the solution to suffering. WE look here and we

look there for the way out; is eating the way out? is being busy the

way out? Is having the right relationship the way out? No no, no, no,

and no. WE eventually discover that none of these are the way out.

Then what is?

After looking in all these directions and more, we begin looking

into philosophies and teachings that might have the answer. IS

pscyhcotherapy the way out? (pills ) Is meditation the way out? Is a

vegan diet the way out? IS yoga the way out? are affirmations the way

out? No,no,no,no, and no.

When we are ready, the teacher appears who has found the way out.

" You dont exist, " the teacher says. " IF that's the truth, i dont want

to hear it, " we say and we go back to looking somewhere else. Finally,

we run into the Truth enough times that it cannot be denied .

What a shock. What a blow,. No me. What now? How will life be

lived? You dont know.. You drop all pretense of knowing and just let

yourself not know. Not knowing is the natural state. However, this not

knowing is not a place of never knowing. Knowing happens; it just

doesnt happen ahead of time but in each moment. It unfolds from one

moment to the next . Who knows about the next moment? WE only know

about this one. This is how the life is lived wihout the me very well

thank you. " page 35 -36

page 37

" What a relief to discover that we are not this individual who suffers

and struggles so. We can finally give up the effort to be somebody

special, to know things, to be right, and to get it right. WE were

never satisfied with ourselves or others, no matter what we did or

what they did. It was a no win game. What a relief to give up the

effort to be better, do better, and get more. "

I love this book.

r

[Guest guest]

*****My critique, my two cents, follows. Read it if you dare. :-)

I love this book Radical Happiness by Lake

She sounds like KAtie..

page 35

" .....The mind creates the me through thought. Before thought, there

was no egoic self, only the Self . This birth of the me is the cause

of suffering. The two go hand in hand . The me and its story is about

separation, and separation is painful Anytime the focus is on the me,

we suffer, whether the me is being painted positively or negatively.

*****Absolutely spot on. Basically what Buddha said 2500 years ago.

Any sense of " me, " including the good-feelings associated with me,

carries with it the seed of suffering. Suffering doesn't always

happen......but the potential is there.

WE suffer not only because we make ourselves separate from others

but because we make ourselves separate from the SElf. However, this

suffering is not a mistake; it is part of the Selfs plan too.

*****This is one story about why things are as they are. I like this

story; it resonates with my programming. But one may recognize that

the paragraph above is an overlay, an explanation that is presenting

a meaning for how things are. In actuality, who really knows what

the Self's plan is? Lake? And how is she privy to such ideas?

Ridiculous!

Suffering is what wakes us up out of the egoic state of consciousness.

It is not only grist for the egoic selfs mill but a prod to awaken us

to our true nature. Suffering Is not a mistake.

*****No disagreement. There are no mistakes. However, not all

bodymind mechanisms awaken while in bodymind form. For some, it

takes release from the bodymind form.

(Im reminded of who says she sees the value in suffering )

Suffering is the result of our programming. (scientology calls it

our reactive mind ) WE are programmed with a mind that generates

thoughts ( including the me thought) , which cause suffering.

*****The above suggests that there is a " me " and " my program " (which

I am programmed with). This misses it. I would say the more

accurate understanding is that we ARE the programming. There isn't

a " me " and " my programming. " What we think of as " me " IS the

programming. And that changes, moment to moment to moment.

And not all the programming/thoughts cause suffering. The " working

mind, " the part of the brain that allows the bodymind mechanism to

function appropriately, does not produce suffering. Like....the mind

says, " I need to go to the store, so I should go outside, put the key

in the car's ignition, turn it, drive the car... " etc. These are

thoughts but not " me " thoughts. They don't produce suffering (unless

one has a phobia about driving! Hahaha!!!).

However, we are also given a way out of suffering. Life is like a

puzzle: WE are being asked to find the solution to suffering. WE look

here and we look there for the way out; is eating the way out? is

being busy the way out? Is having the right relationship the way out?

No no, no, no, and no. WE eventually discover that none of these

are the way out. Then what is?

After looking in all these directions and more, we begin looking

into philosophies and teachings that might have the answer. IS

pscyhcotherapy the way out? (pills ) Is meditation the way out? Is a

vegan diet the way out? IS yoga the way out? are affirmations the way

out? No,no,no,no, and no.

When we are ready, the teacher appears who has found the way out.

" You dont exist, " the teacher says. " IF that's the truth, i dont want

to hear it, " we say and we go back to looking somewhere else. Finally,

we run into the Truth enough times that it cannot be denied .

What a shock. What a blow,. No me. What now? How will life be lived?

You dont know.. You drop all pretense of knowing and just let

yourself not know. Not knowing is the natural state. However, this not

knowing is not a place of never knowing. Knowing happens; it just

doesnt happen ahead of time but in each moment. It unfolds from one

moment to the next . Who knows about the next moment? WE only know

about this one. This is how the life is lived wihout the me very well

thank you.

" What a relief to discover that we are not this individual who suffers

and struggles so. We can finally give up the effort to be somebody

special, to know things, to be right, and to get it right. WE were

never satisfied with ourselves or others, no matter what we did or

what they did. It was a no win game. What a relief to give up the

effort to be better, do better, and get more. "

*****Here is where I radically part company with Ms. Lake. I don't

disagree with what she's said. But she's only covered half the

story. There is another half, the relative half, the part that deals

with the fact that -- even with the insights discussed above -- there

is no escape (other than death) from the bodymind mechanism and the

programming which defines it. The sages of old never disavowed that

they feel cold, feel joy, feel sadness, feel the heat of summer,

haves likes and dislikes. Awakening does not mean becoming a tabula

rasa.

Even the awakened don't escape phenomenality (while alive). In one

sense, yes, we are not this individual who suffers and struggles so.

But again, that is only half the story. And, in another sense, we

are.

A zen poem, " The Identity of the Relative and Absolute, " makes this

point sharply: " To be attached to things is illusion " (the

relative), " To encounter the absolute is not yet enlightenment " (the

absolute). It's not one OR the other. It's BOTH, simultaneously.

This Understanding requires holding two contradictory notions at the

same time, and not getting confused. One is able to do it when one

is able to do it.

Awakening (to the insight discussed by Ms Lake) does not, absolutely

does not, dissolve the innate conditioning-in-the-moment. It simply

adds another, very useful and suffering-relieving dimension to it.

The transcendence (Identification as the Absolute) is never

absolute. There is always, also, immanence (until the bodymind

mechanism expires). And while the immanence is, essentially,

illusory, even sages are not immune to it.

Being awake, in its simplest understanding, does not mean immunity or

escape from phenomenality. All it means is that those who are awake

are aware -- more often than not -- of their own delusions. It is

not that they don't experience delusions. That is the nature of

having (or being) a conditioned entity, that is the result of there

being thoughts.

There is no escape from it. However....having some connection with

the insights discussed above allows the awakened to see that this

phenomenal existence is only part of the story. They see how this

game is played. Even so, from time to time, they too are caught up

in it, are duped into playing it. And they are acutely aware of how

painful it is to play the game if one doesn't realize what one is

doing. If, however, the realization is there, then there is no

suffering. But the game doesn't end because of the presence of the

realization.

The practice of awakening involves, on a daily basis (actually on a

momentary basis), acquainting ourselves with how quickly we are

tricked, how easily we are sucked into our own ideas about reality,

and how tightly we're bound up in our petty likes and dislikes, our

fears and prejudices. Since ideas/thoughts are endless, this

practice is endless; one of the greatest zen teachers, Dogen Zenji

referred to it as " ceaseless practice. "

[Guest guest]

--I dont know what tabula rosa means..

But if you read the whole book you would see there is no

disagreement.. but im out of quoting right now. And this group isnt

suppose to be about books..

I do think suffering is what prods us to search for a spiritual

practice .. but of course no one knows the SElfs plan and she doesnt

pretend too.

Like she says the dont know mind is best.

She would agree what the me is- is the programming. And of course not

all of it is bad.

I take it back i will key one quote.. and leave it at that.. because

it gets to be too much keying

page 4 " Many think that problems will disappear after awakening, and

some do. But the usual probelms of being human remain- bodies still

get sick, loved ones die and accidents happen.. only now, these are

not seen as problems but just what is. "

VEry katie like quote..

Well enough of this ...

love, r

- In Loving-what-is , " Andy " wrote:

>

>

>

>

> *****My critique, my two cents, follows. Read it if you dare. :-)

>

>

> I love this book Radical Happiness by Lake

>

> She sounds like KAtie..

>

> page 35

> " .....The mind creates the me through thought. Before thought, there

> was no egoic self, only the Self . This birth of the me is the cause

> of suffering. The two go hand in hand . The me and its story is about

> separation, and separation is painful Anytime the focus is on the me,

> we suffer, whether the me is being painted positively or negatively.

>

>

> *****Absolutely spot on. Basically what Buddha said 2500 years ago.

> Any sense of " me, " including the good-feelings associated with me,

> carries with it the seed of suffering. Suffering doesn't always

> happen......but the potential is there.

>

>

>

> WE suffer not only because we make ourselves separate from others

> but because we make ourselves separate from the SElf. However, this

> suffering is not a mistake; it is part of the Selfs plan too.

>

>

> *****This is one story about why things are as they are. I like this

> story; it resonates with my programming. But one may recognize that

> the paragraph above is an overlay, an explanation that is presenting

> a meaning for how things are. In actuality, who really knows what

> the Self's plan is? Lake? And how is she privy to such ideas?

> Ridiculous!

>

>

>

> Suffering is what wakes us up out of the egoic state of consciousness.

> It is not only grist for the egoic selfs mill but a prod to awaken us

> to our true nature. Suffering Is not a mistake.

>

>

> *****No disagreement. There are no mistakes. However, not all

> bodymind mechanisms awaken while in bodymind form. For some, it

> takes release from the bodymind form.

>

>

> (Im reminded of who says she sees the value in suffering )

> Suffering is the result of our programming. (scientology calls it

> our reactive mind ) WE are programmed with a mind that generates

> thoughts ( including the me thought) , which cause suffering.

>

>

> *****The above suggests that there is a " me " and " my program " (which

> I am programmed with). This misses it. I would say the more

> accurate understanding is that we ARE the programming. There isn't

> a " me " and " my programming. " What we think of as " me " IS the

> programming. And that changes, moment to moment to moment.

>

> And not all the programming/thoughts cause suffering. The " working

> mind, " the part of the brain that allows the bodymind mechanism to

> function appropriately, does not produce suffering. Like....the mind

> says, " I need to go to the store, so I should go outside, put the key

> in the car's ignition, turn it, drive the car... " etc. These are

> thoughts but not " me " thoughts. They don't produce suffering (unless

> one has a phobia about driving! Hahaha!!!).

>

>

> However, we are also given a way out of suffering. Life is like a

> puzzle: WE are being asked to find the solution to suffering. WE look

> here and we look there for the way out; is eating the way out? is

> being busy the way out? Is having the right relationship the way out?

> No no, no, no, and no. WE eventually discover that none of these

> are the way out. Then what is?

>

> After looking in all these directions and more, we begin looking

> into philosophies and teachings that might have the answer. IS

> pscyhcotherapy the way out? (pills ) Is meditation the way out? Is a

> vegan diet the way out? IS yoga the way out? are affirmations the way

> out? No,no,no,no, and no.

>

> When we are ready, the teacher appears who has found the way out.

> " You dont exist, " the teacher says. " IF that's the truth, i dont want

> to hear it, " we say and we go back to looking somewhere else. Finally,

> we run into the Truth enough times that it cannot be denied .

>

> What a shock. What a blow,. No me. What now? How will life be lived?

> You dont know.. You drop all pretense of knowing and just let

> yourself not know. Not knowing is the natural state. However, this not

> knowing is not a place of never knowing. Knowing happens; it just

> doesnt happen ahead of time but in each moment. It unfolds from one

> moment to the next . Who knows about the next moment? WE only know

> about this one. This is how the life is lived wihout the me very well

> thank you.

>

> " What a relief to discover that we are not this individual who suffers

> and struggles so. We can finally give up the effort to be somebody

> special, to know things, to be right, and to get it right. WE were

> never satisfied with ourselves or others, no matter what we did or

> what they did. It was a no win game. What a relief to give up the

> effort to be better, do better, and get more. "

>

>

> *****Here is where I radically part company with Ms. Lake. I don't

> disagree with what she's said. But she's only covered half the

> story. There is another half, the relative half, the part that deals

> with the fact that -- even with the insights discussed above -- there

> is no escape (other than death) from the bodymind mechanism and the

> programming which defines it. The sages of old never disavowed that

> they feel cold, feel joy, feel sadness, feel the heat of summer,

> haves likes and dislikes. Awakening does not mean becoming a tabula

> rasa.

>

> Even the awakened don't escape phenomenality (while alive). In one

> sense, yes, we are not this individual who suffers and struggles so.

> But again, that is only half the story. And, in another sense, we

> are.

>

> A zen poem, " The Identity of the Relative and Absolute, " makes this

> point sharply: " To be attached to things is illusion " (the

> relative), " To encounter the absolute is not yet enlightenment " (the

> absolute). It's not one OR the other. It's BOTH, simultaneously.

> This Understanding requires holding two contradictory notions at the

> same time, and not getting confused. One is able to do it when one

> is able to do it.

>

> Awakening (to the insight discussed by Ms Lake) does not, absolutely

> does not, dissolve the innate conditioning-in-the-moment. It simply

> adds another, very useful and suffering-relieving dimension to it.

> The transcendence (Identification as the Absolute) is never

> absolute. There is always, also, immanence (until the bodymind

> mechanism expires). And while the immanence is, essentially,

> illusory, even sages are not immune to it.

>

> Being awake, in its simplest understanding, does not mean immunity or

> escape from phenomenality. All it means is that those who are awake

> are aware -- more often than not -- of their own delusions. It is

> not that they don't experience delusions. That is the nature of

> having (or being) a conditioned entity, that is the result of there

> being thoughts.

>

> There is no escape from it. However....having some connection with

> the insights discussed above allows the awakened to see that this

> phenomenal existence is only part of the story. They see how this

> game is played. Even so, from time to time, they too are caught up

> in it, are duped into playing it. And they are acutely aware of how

> painful it is to play the game if one doesn't realize what one is

> doing. If, however, the realization is there, then there is no

> suffering. But the game doesn't end because of the presence of the

> realization.

>

> The practice of awakening involves, on a daily basis (actually on a

> momentary basis), acquainting ourselves with how quickly we are

> tricked, how easily we are sucked into our own ideas about reality,

> and how tightly we're bound up in our petty likes and dislikes, our

> fears and prejudices. Since ideas/thoughts are endless, this

> practice is endless; one of the greatest zen teachers, Dogen Zenji

> referred to it as " ceaseless practice. "

>

[Guest guest]

My understanding of " tabula rasa " is " blank slate " .

And I don't know?

Steve D.

> >

> >

> > *****My critique, my two cents, follows. Read it if you dare. :-)

> >

> >

> > I love this book Radical Happiness by Lake

> >

> > She sounds like KAtie..

> >

> > page 35

> > " .....The mind creates the me through thought. Before thought,

there

> > was no egoic self, only the Self . This birth of the me is the

cause

> > of suffering. The two go hand in hand . The me and its story is

about

> > separation, and separation is painful Anytime the focus is on

the me,

> > we suffer, whether the me is being painted positively or

negatively.

> >

> >

> > *****Absolutely spot on. Basically what Buddha said 2500 years

ago.

> > Any sense of " me, " including the good-feelings associated with

me,

> > carries with it the seed of suffering. Suffering doesn't always

> > happen......but the potential is there.

> >

> >

> >

> > WE suffer not only because we make ourselves separate from others

> > but because we make ourselves separate from the SElf. However,

this

> > suffering is not a mistake; it is part of the Selfs plan too.

> >

> >

> > *****This is one story about why things are as they are. I like

this

> > story; it resonates with my programming. But one may recognize

that

> > the paragraph above is an overlay, an explanation that is

presenting

> > a meaning for how things are. In actuality, who really knows

what

> > the Self's plan is? Lake? And how is she privy to such

ideas?

> > Ridiculous!

> >

> >

> >

> > Suffering is what wakes us up out of the egoic state of

consciousness.

> > It is not only grist for the egoic selfs mill but a prod to

awaken us

> > to our true nature. Suffering Is not a mistake.

> >

> >

> > *****No disagreement. There are no mistakes. However, not all

> > bodymind mechanisms awaken while in bodymind form. For some, it

> > takes release from the bodymind form.

> >

> >

> > (Im reminded of who says she sees the value in suffering )

> > Suffering is the result of our programming. (scientology calls it

> > our reactive mind ) WE are programmed with a mind that generates

> > thoughts ( including the me thought) , which cause suffering.

> >

> >

> > *****The above suggests that there is a " me " and " my program "

(which

> > I am programmed with). This misses it. I would say the more

> > accurate understanding is that we ARE the programming. There

isn't

> > a " me " and " my programming. " What we think of as " me " IS the

> > programming. And that changes, moment to moment to moment.

> >

> > And not all the programming/thoughts cause suffering.

The " working

> > mind, " the part of the brain that allows the bodymind mechanism

to

> > function appropriately, does not produce suffering. Like....the

mind

> > says, " I need to go to the store, so I should go outside, put the

key

> > in the car's ignition, turn it, drive the car... " etc. These are

> > thoughts but not " me " thoughts. They don't produce suffering

(unless

> > one has a phobia about driving! Hahaha!!!).

> >

> >

> > However, we are also given a way out of suffering. Life is like a

> > puzzle: WE are being asked to find the solution to suffering. WE

look

> > here and we look there for the way out; is eating the way out? is

> > being busy the way out? Is having the right relationship the way

out?

> > No no, no, no, and no. WE eventually discover that none of

these

> > are the way out. Then what is?

> >

> > After looking in all these directions and more, we begin looking

> > into philosophies and teachings that might have the answer. IS

> > pscyhcotherapy the way out? (pills ) Is meditation the way out?

Is a

> > vegan diet the way out? IS yoga the way out? are affirmations the

way

> > out? No,no,no,no, and no.

> >

> > When we are ready, the teacher appears who has found the way out.

> > " You dont exist, " the teacher says. " IF that's the truth, i dont

want

> > to hear it, " we say and we go back to looking somewhere else.

Finally,

> > we run into the Truth enough times that it cannot be denied .

> >

> > What a shock. What a blow,. No me. What now? How will life be

lived?

> > You dont know.. You drop all pretense of knowing and just let

> > yourself not know. Not knowing is the natural state. However,

this not

> > knowing is not a place of never knowing. Knowing happens; it just

> > doesnt happen ahead of time but in each moment. It unfolds from

one

> > moment to the next . Who knows about the next moment? WE only

know

> > about this one. This is how the life is lived wihout the me very

well

> > thank you.

> >

> > " What a relief to discover that we are not this individual who

suffers

> > and struggles so. We can finally give up the effort to be somebody

> > special, to know things, to be right, and to get it right. WE were

> > never satisfied with ourselves or others, no matter what we did

or

> > what they did. It was a no win game. What a relief to give up the

> > effort to be better, do better, and get more. "

> >

> >

> > *****Here is where I radically part company with Ms. Lake. I

don't

> > disagree with what she's said. But she's only covered half the

> > story. There is another half, the relative half, the part that

deals

> > with the fact that -- even with the insights discussed above --

there

> > is no escape (other than death) from the bodymind mechanism and

the

> > programming which defines it. The sages of old never disavowed

that

> > they feel cold, feel joy, feel sadness, feel the heat of summer,

> > haves likes and dislikes. Awakening does not mean becoming a

tabula

> > rasa.

> >

> > Even the awakened don't escape phenomenality (while alive). In

one

> > sense, yes, we are not this individual who suffers and struggles

so.

> > But again, that is only half the story. And, in another sense,

we

> > are.

> >

> > A zen poem, " The Identity of the Relative and Absolute, " makes

this

> > point sharply: " To be attached to things is illusion " (the

> > relative), " To encounter the absolute is not yet enlightenment "

(the

> > absolute). It's not one OR the other. It's BOTH,

simultaneously.

> > This Understanding requires holding two contradictory notions at

the

> > same time, and not getting confused. One is able to do it when

one

> > is able to do it.

> >

> > Awakening (to the insight discussed by Ms Lake) does not,

absolutely

> > does not, dissolve the innate conditioning-in-the-moment. It

simply

> > adds another, very useful and suffering-relieving dimension to

it.

> > The transcendence (Identification as the Absolute) is never

> > absolute. There is always, also, immanence (until the bodymind

> > mechanism expires). And while the immanence is, essentially,

> > illusory, even sages are not immune to it.

> >

> > Being awake, in its simplest understanding, does not mean

immunity or

> > escape from phenomenality. All it means is that those who are

awake

> > are aware -- more often than not -- of their own delusions. It

is

> > not that they don't experience delusions. That is the nature of

> > having (or being) a conditioned entity, that is the result of

there

> > being thoughts.

> >

> > There is no escape from it. However....having some connection

with

> > the insights discussed above allows the awakened to see that this

> > phenomenal existence is only part of the story. They see how

this

> > game is played. Even so, from time to time, they too are caught

up

> > in it, are duped into playing it. And they are acutely aware of

how

> > painful it is to play the game if one doesn't realize what one is

> > doing. If, however, the realization is there, then there is no

> > suffering. But the game doesn't end because of the presence of

the

> > realization.

> >

> > The practice of awakening involves, on a daily basis (actually on

a

> > momentary basis), acquainting ourselves with how quickly we are

> > tricked, how easily we are sucked into our own ideas about

reality,

> > and how tightly we're bound up in our petty likes and dislikes,

our

> > fears and prejudices. Since ideas/thoughts are endless, this

> > practice is endless; one of the greatest zen teachers, Dogen

Zenji

> > referred to it as " ceaseless practice. "

> >

>

[Guest guest]

> --I dont know what tabula rosa means..

*****It was a phrase coined by the 16th century philosopher

Locke, who taught that at birth, the human being is a " tabula rasa, "

a " blank slate, " with nothing imprinted on it. Life's experiences

thus created " the person " (the personality). Locke didn't know much

about genetics ~ at that time nobody did. So he missed the " innate "

part: that all living beings are born with PREbirth dispositions,

some are genetic leanings, others are learned in the womb.

You wrote, " She would agree what the me is- is the programming. And

of course not all of it is bad. I take it back i will key one quote..

and leave it at that.. because it gets to be too much keying

page 4 "

" Many think that problems will disappear after awakening, and

some do. But the usual probelms of being human remain- bodies still

get sick, loved ones die and accidents happen.. only now, these are

not seen as problems but just what is. "

*****Yes, ultimately, that is the best one can hope for: a

recognition, acquiesence, capitulation, to What IS. And sometimes,

What IS means being sad, lonely, nervous, as well as joyful, loving,

and relaxed. What no longer operates is the long-term aversion to

the first or the clinging to the other. Feelings (born of thought)

arises, are felt, and pass through. Like the clouds. In the moment

they may felt lousy (a violent rain show), or they may feel wonderful

(warm sunlight caressing one's shoulders). But they pass.

Everything passes. Nothing persists. That is the ultimate

realization: the futility of attempting to keep that which is not

able to be kept.