Guest guest Posted March 21, 2006 Report Share Posted March 21, 2006 - WEll my definition is someone in tune with Spirit and egoless who is loving what is. And God works through them. Like KAtie, Yogananda , Ron Hubbard , lee Skarin, Gandhi and probably others. And i know some people probably dont agree, especially about Ron Hubbard. oh well. yoganada, Ron Hubbard and lee Skarin all consciously left their bodies.. at least thats my story I cant know it I cant believe you dont like chocolate. ARe you sure? love,roslyn -- In Loving-what-is , Tami wrote: > > I agree too > > I am a master too (what the hell is a master?) > And trust me I can feel sadness over death, or even over smaller things > Like: when I wake up in the morning and just feel sad, Dah! ;-) > > THE MORE I WRITE HERE THE MORE I SEE HOW AMAZING I AM > > T > > -- Re: Andy's Zen story > > Andy, I agree that a master could still feel sadness over death or > their own death.. > I dont have any exact quote but i remember in having read > Autobiography of a Yogi that Yogananda was sad about his death becaues > he was worried how his disciples would handle it. (i think) and was > upset with his gurus death momentarily. > Of course his guru came to him eventually and spoke with him. and he > was able to communicate with disciples. STill I think the thought of > losing the form is still upsetting due to the attachment to the body.. > despite being realized. > Yogananda consciously left his body after giving a speech at the > Biltmore hotel in LA. in a room which is now the lobby. > The lobby has a peacefulness to it still. > love, roslyn > > > > > > > -- In Loving-what-is , " Andy " <endofthedream@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Story: a young monk was walking in the monastery garden when he > > > heard sobbing. He came upon the monastery's zen master, > > > crying. " What is the matter, master? " the young monk inquires. The > > > old abbot holds up a sheet of paper, saying, " I just received this > > > letter; my dearest nephew died an untimely death. " And he begins > > > sobbing again. " But master, " the young monk persists, " didn't you > > > repeatedly teach us that death is just an illusion? " At that, the > > > zen master swats the boy's head with the letter, saying, " Of course > > > it is an illusion, you young fool! But it is the most painful > > > illusion. " > > > > > > Sounds like a cool story, if you want to justify emotions such as > > grief etc. Would a Zen master really be upset over death? I really > > don't think so. > > > > > > > > *****You don't THINK so. Yes, I get that. But do you have any > > firsthand, personal experience? Have you actually examined any > > evidence (i.e., conversed with a " real live living zen master " )? Or > > is this simply thought speaking? Speculation? If you want to be > > taken serious, find one. Ask him or her. Then come back and tell us. > > > > > > *****As I've said before, I have been in close, personal touch with > > about six " professional " sages (zen, Advaita, etc.) over the past 25 > > years. Some were Japanese, some Indian, some American. I can only > > speak from those experiences. None of the sages I know personally > > have EVER denied the place of emotion in their lives. I have never > > personally met a living human being (sage or otherwise) who has > > asserted that they NEVER, EVER experience any upsetting emotions. > > I'm not sure that Byron has said that about herself. All of > > the sages I've discussed this with point out that we have no control > > over the appearance, the intial arising of the emotions. What the > > awakened say is this: once the emotional state becomes apparent (that > > is we experience it in consciousness...for example, we notice > > that " there is sadness, " or " there is fear " ), at THAT point (and not > > before) one can aim to cut off the horizontal involvement in the > > emotional state (i.e., see it as the thought that it is). Until then > > (the moment that the emotion enters conscious awareness), we can't do > > a thing. > > > > > > > > > > How could anyone be sad over death if they truly had realized that > > the ONLY place anyone really lives is in our thoughts? > > > > > > *****Yes, I understand that you can't see this. It's not there for > > you yet. You don't get, apparently that sadness over death also > > lives in our thoughts. It's ALL thought (including the emotion born > > of thought). Yes, ultimately, then, it is a dream and one need not > > fret about any of it. But still, regardless of this insight, > > thoughts arise and emotions follow, the plow following the path of > > the ox. > > > > > > Nope ... this is not a story about the clarity of Zen masters, but the > > confusion of an over active ego. > > > > > > *****The initial *arising* of a painful emotion is not under our > > control. Previously you have noted that the teaching here is > > thought ---> emotion ---> action. I used to dispute this with you. > > I now agree. But where does that initial thought come from? > > Do " you " have any control over it? As BK has said, repeatedly, " You > > can't drop a thought because you didn't create it in the first > > place. " So....thoughts arise, and some thoughts provoke painful > > emotions. Now, WHEN that is seen, by thought, the validity of it can > > be questioned (using some " tool, " e.g. The Work or meditaiton or > > prayer of cognitive psychology, all of which, ultimately aim at > > creating a dissociation between " me " and " thought, " allow the " me " to > > see that I am ultimately NOT thought). But this process of undoing > > painful thoughts only starts ONCE the painful emotion happens, is > > felt, and is recognized. It can't be undone until it appears. > > > > > > > > Lets pursue the " happy dream " and have no more of this rubbish > > > > > > *****This can only happen when, and more importantly, IF the desire > > (which is thought) arises to provoke the pursuit. Until then, no > > movement towards it. > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2006 Report Share Posted March 21, 2006 R I don't like chocolate cause it is too sweet for me (I am sweet enough). Do you think lovethework will answer me? T -- Re: Andy's Zen story > > Andy, I agree that a master could still feel sadness over death or > their own death.. > I dont have any exact quote but i remember in having read > Autobiography of a Yogi that Yogananda was sad about his death becaues > he was worried how his disciples would handle it. (i think) and was > upset with his gurus death momentarily. > Of course his guru came to him eventually and spoke with him. and he > was able to communicate with disciples. STill I think the thought of > losing the form is still upsetting due to the attachment to the body.. > despite being realized. > Yogananda consciously left his body after giving a speech at the > Biltmore hotel in LA. in a room which is now the lobby. > The lobby has a peacefulness to it still. > love, roslyn > > > > > > > -- In Loving-what-is , " Andy " <endofthedream@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Story: a young monk was walking in the monastery garden when he > > > heard sobbing. He came upon the monastery's zen master, > > > crying. " What is the matter, master? " the young monk inquires. The > > > old abbot holds up a sheet of paper, saying, " I just received this > > > letter; my dearest nephew died an untimely death. " And he begins > > > sobbing again. " But master, " the young monk persists, " didn't you > > > repeatedly teach us that death is just an illusion? " At that, the > > > zen master swats the boy's head with the letter, saying, " Of course > > > it is an illusion, you young fool! But it is the most painful > > > illusion. " > > > > > > Sounds like a cool story, if you want to justify emotions such as > > grief etc. Would a Zen master really be upset over death? I really > > don't think so. > > > > > > > > *****You don't THINK so. Yes, I get that. But do you have any > > firsthand, personal experience? Have you actually examined any > > evidence (i.e., conversed with a " real live living zen master " )? Or > > is this simply thought speaking? Speculation? If you want to be > > taken serious, find one. Ask him or her. Then come back and tell us. > > > > > > *****As I've said before, I have been in close, personal touch with > > about six " professional " sages (zen, Advaita, etc.) over the past 25 > > years. Some were Japanese, some Indian, some American. I can only > > speak from those experiences. None of the sages I know personally > > have EVER denied the place of emotion in their lives. I have never > > personally met a living human being (sage or otherwise) who has > > asserted that they NEVER, EVER experience any upsetting emotions. > > I'm not sure that Byron has said that about herself. All of > > the sages I've discussed this with point out that we have no control > > over the appearance, the intial arising of the emotions. What the > > awakened say is this: once the emotional state becomes apparent (that > > is we experience it in consciousness...for example, we notice > > that " there is sadness, " or " there is fear " ), at THAT point (and not > > before) one can aim to cut off the horizontal involvement in the > > emotional state (i.e., see it as the thought that it is). Until then > > (the moment that the emotion enters conscious awareness), we can't do > > a thing. > > > > > > > > > > How could anyone be sad over death if they truly had realized that > > the ONLY place anyone really lives is in our thoughts? > > > > > > *****Yes, I understand that you can't see this. It's not there for > > you yet. You don't get, apparently that sadness over death also > > lives in our thoughts. It's ALL thought (including the emotion born > > of thought). Yes, ultimately, then, it is a dream and one need not > > fret about any of it. But still, regardless of this insight, > > thoughts arise and emotions follow, the plow following the path of > > the ox. > > > > > > Nope ... this is not a story about the clarity of Zen masters, but the > > confusion of an over active ego. > > > > > > *****The initial *arising* of a painful emotion is not under our > > control. Previously you have noted that the teaching here is > > thought ---> emotion ---> action. I used to dispute this with you. > > I now agree. But where does that initial thought come from? > > Do " you " have any control over it? As BK has said, repeatedly, " You > > can't drop a thought because you didn't create it in the first > > place. " So....thoughts arise, and some thoughts provoke painful > > emotions. Now, WHEN that is seen, by thought, the validity of it can > > be questioned (using some " tool, " e.g. The Work or meditaiton or > > prayer of cognitive psychology, all of which, ultimately aim at > > creating a dissociation between " me " and " thought, " allow the " me " to > > see that I am ultimately NOT thought). But this process of undoing > > painful thoughts only starts ONCE the painful emotion happens, is > > felt, and is recognized. It can't be undone until it appears. > > > > > > > > Lets pursue the " happy dream " and have no more of this rubbish > > > > > > *****This can only happen when, and more importantly, IF the desire > > (which is thought) arises to provoke the pursuit. Until then, no > > movement towards it. > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2006 Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 T Nope, i dont think lovethework will answer you. maybe he prefers men. IN regard to masters, i suppose we are all masters most of us just believe the lie that we are not. R -- In Loving-what-is , Tami wrote: > > R > > I don't like chocolate cause it is too sweet for me > (I am sweet enough). > > Do you think lovethework will answer me? > > T > > -- Re: Andy's Zen story > > > > Andy, I agree that a master could still feel sadness over death or > > their own death.. > > I dont have any exact quote but i remember in having read > > Autobiography of a Yogi that Yogananda was sad about his death becaues > > he was worried how his disciples would handle it. (i think) and was > > upset with his gurus death momentarily. > > Of course his guru came to him eventually and spoke with him. and he > > was able to communicate with disciples. STill I think the thought of > > losing the form is still upsetting due to the attachment to the body.. > > despite being realized. > > Yogananda consciously left his body after giving a speech at the > > Biltmore hotel in LA. in a room which is now the lobby. > > The lobby has a peacefulness to it still. > > love, roslyn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- In Loving-what-is , " Andy " <endofthedream@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Story: a young monk was walking in the monastery garden when he > > > > heard sobbing. He came upon the monastery's zen master, > > > > crying. " What is the matter, master? " the young monk inquires. The > > > > old abbot holds up a sheet of paper, saying, " I just received this > > > > letter; my dearest nephew died an untimely death. " And he begins > > > > sobbing again. " But master, " the young monk persists, " didn't you > > > > repeatedly teach us that death is just an illusion? " At that, the > > > > zen master swats the boy's head with the letter, saying, " Of course > > > > it is an illusion, you young fool! But it is the most painful > > > > illusion. " > > > > > > > > > Sounds like a cool story, if you want to justify emotions such as > > > grief etc. Would a Zen master really be upset over death? I really > > > don't think so. > > > > > > > > > > > > *****You don't THINK so. Yes, I get that. But do you have any > > > firsthand, personal experience? Have you actually examined any > > > evidence (i.e., conversed with a " real live living zen master " )? Or > > > is this simply thought speaking? Speculation? If you want to be > > > taken serious, find one. Ask him or her. Then come back and tell us. > > > > > > > > > *****As I've said before, I have been in close, personal touch with > > > about six " professional " sages (zen, Advaita, etc.) over the past 25 > > > years. Some were Japanese, some Indian, some American. I can only > > > speak from those experiences. None of the sages I know personally > > > have EVER denied the place of emotion in their lives. I have never > > > personally met a living human being (sage or otherwise) who has > > > asserted that they NEVER, EVER experience any upsetting emotions. > > > I'm not sure that Byron has said that about herself. All of > > > the sages I've discussed this with point out that we have no control > > > over the appearance, the intial arising of the emotions. What the > > > awakened say is this: once the emotional state becomes apparent (that > > > is we experience it in consciousness...for example, we notice > > > that " there is sadness, " or " there is fear " ), at THAT point (and not > > > before) one can aim to cut off the horizontal involvement in the > > > emotional state (i.e., see it as the thought that it is). Until then > > > (the moment that the emotion enters conscious awareness), we can't do > > > a thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How could anyone be sad over death if they truly had realized that > > > the ONLY place anyone really lives is in our thoughts? > > > > > > > > > *****Yes, I understand that you can't see this. It's not there for > > > you yet. You don't get, apparently that sadness over death also > > > lives in our thoughts. It's ALL thought (including the emotion born > > > of thought). Yes, ultimately, then, it is a dream and one need not > > > fret about any of it. But still, regardless of this insight, > > > thoughts arise and emotions follow, the plow following the path of > > > the ox. > > > > > > > > > Nope ... this is not a story about the clarity of Zen masters, but the > > > confusion of an over active ego. > > > > > > > > > *****The initial *arising* of a painful emotion is not under our > > > control. Previously you have noted that the teaching here is > > > thought ---> emotion ---> action. I used to dispute this with you. > > > I now agree. But where does that initial thought come from? > > > Do " you " have any control over it? As BK has said, repeatedly, " You > > > can't drop a thought because you didn't create it in the first > > > place. " So....thoughts arise, and some thoughts provoke painful > > > emotions. Now, WHEN that is seen, by thought, the validity of it can > > > be questioned (using some " tool, " e.g. The Work or meditaiton or > > > prayer of cognitive psychology, all of which, ultimately aim at > > > creating a dissociation between " me " and " thought, " allow the " me " to > > > see that I am ultimately NOT thought). But this process of undoing > > > painful thoughts only starts ONCE the painful emotion happens, is > > > felt, and is recognized. It can't be undone until it appears. > > > > > > > > > > > > Lets pursue the " happy dream " and have no more of this rubbish > > > > > > > > > *****This can only happen when, and more importantly, IF the desire > > > (which is thought) arises to provoke the pursuit. Until then, no > > > movement towards it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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