Re: about being old and about dying

[Guest guest]

Hi Rosemarie ~

A few thoughts....

I am old.

Is that true? Yes! (end of the worksheet !!!!!!)

***** " Old " is a relative term.

My cat died.

Well, my cat died and - maybe - it was my fault...!

(Because one night I got up and in the dark I unconsciously

stepped my foot on her where she was lying on the carpet in the

middle of the room, which I didn´t know, but anyhow ...)

*****The absence of a dear, close friend is accompanied by a vaccum

of energy that was previously present in physical form: your cat.

There is a void now and you notice that. Feeling sorrow, grief, a

sense of loss, is perfectly normal. Whether or not your foot

precipitated the cat's passing you will never know for certain, so

why beat yourself up over it? It was neither intentional nor

planned. You miss your friend. Is there any need to complicate

matters beyond that at this point?

C) One of my plants died.

The one I have been cherishing for a number of years.

I always was concerned about how to treat her well.

Now the leaves began to fall and it seemed that the plant was

suffering. I took advice from a gardener who suggested to put the

plant into another pot, which I did.

And this was the end.

*****Another passing which it sounds like you did your utmost to

avoid. What you may want to examine is whether " you " Rosemarie have

actually any " say " in these passings (as well as any " comings " that

appear in your life). Perhaps you are not the author of the script

called " Rosemaire's Life " ? What then?

I feel disappointed, sad, also a little angry, worried and confused

and somehow guilty because my plant died, my cat died,

and I feel confused and worried because - after all :-) - I´ve got a

young lover (which is great!!!) but only he is young and I am not!!!

(See above!)

He assures me that he doesn´t care about the difference in age,

but - you know - I give a damn on what he is saying. And, finally,

if HE doesn´t care I do :-)

*****Yes, that is the bottom line. There is some investment

(a " mental program " that is running in Rosemarie's mind). As you

note below the investment is in things being different than they are

( " I don't want to feel grief, anger, sadness, disappointment " .....if

you fight these things, instead of letting them have their say, they

persist beyond their " natural " lifetimes....as the old psychology

adage goes: whatever one resists, persists).

Until there is acceptance of what is, there can be no genuine peace.

And within that acceptance there is room for the grieving of lost

friends, plants, pets. The grieving just doesn't overwhelm. And

there is far, far less confusion and upset. And yet, there can be

grieving.

Story: a young monk was walking in the monastery garden when he

heard sobbing. He came upon the monastery's zen master,

crying. " What is the matter, master? " the young monk inquires. The

old abbot holds up a sheet of paper, saying, " I just received this

letter; my dearest nephew died an untimely death. " And he begins

sobbing again. " But master, " the young monk persists, " didn't you

repeatedly teach us that death is just an illusion? " At that, the

zen master swats the boy's head with the letter, saying, " Of course

it is an illusion, you young fool! But it is the most painful

illusion. "

[Guest guest]

Hi Rosemarie

>I ´ve got three problems presently:

TA Only three!?

When the thought is a statement of fact, it may help to add

" (Fact)------- and that means ___________________________. "

This will give you the beliefs to work -

So if I do this one, it would be " I am old " and that means that

1 My lover will leave me

2 I'm going to die

3 I'll get sick and helpless

4 I'll never find another lover

5 I'll always be alone

6 I'll end up like my mother

7

8

Ask the 4 questions and find the turnarounds.

This is rich!

> My cat died.

And that means that _____________

Is it true?

Can you absolutely know that it's true

etc

> C) One of my plants died.

Ditto

Or

I looked after my plant really well and it still died, and that means

________________

> D he is young and I am not!!!

And that means _______________________ (find the beliefs)

Or even " I am old " Is it true? Can I absolutely know that it is true?

How do I react when I believe the thought I am old? Where do I feel it

in my body? How do I behave? What do I say and do? How do I live my

life when I believe I am old? etc.

Who or what would I be (living my life, with my lover, with my hair)

without the thought " I am old " ?

>I´m trying to wish reality to be something different than it is !

Yes dear one, hopeless, and good that you can see it!

> Have you guys got any suggestions ?

Thank you so much for giving me this gift, Rosemarie. Very meaningful

for me.

> Love, Rosemarie

Love from Tamara

[Guest guest]

R

I have a secret to tell you, promise not to tell anyone?

The secret is:

In the end, we will all die, even Byron ... (I think)

Who is business when we die?

My story: it doesn't matter anymore when you are gone.

We live until we don't end of story.

And I cannot wait to die, sound exciting, new experience.

In the meanwhile, until I die

I will just go to Berlin.

T

-- about being old and about dying

Hi, group,

my hair is showing me that I´m not young any more.

- Actually, it must be " I am old "

instead of ... " not young any more " :-))))) -

So let me see, I ´ve got three problems presently:

A)

I am old.

Is that true? Yes! (end of the worksheet !!!!!!)

My cat died.

Well, my cat died and - maybe - it was my fault...!

(Because one night I got up and in the dark I unconsciously

stepped my foot on her where she was lying on the carpet in the

middle of the room, which I didn´t know, but anyhow ...)

C) One of my plants died.

The one I have been cherishing for a number of years.

I always was concerned about how to treat her well.

Now the leaves began to fall and it seemed that the plant was

suffering. I took advice from a gardener who suggested to put the

plant into another pot, which I did.

And this was the end.

I feel disappointed, sad, also a little angry, worried and confused

and somehow guilty

because my plant died, my cat died,

and I feel confused and worried because - after all :-) - I´ve got a

young lover (which is great!!!) but only he is young and I am not!!!

(See above!)

He assures me that he doesn´t care about the difference in age,

but - you know - I give a damn on what he is saying. And, finally,

if HE doesn´t care I do :-)

I tried the worksheet but - to tell you the truth - I didn´t really try.

Of course I already can see that I ´m trying to wish reality to be

something different than it is !

Have you guys got any suggestions ?

Love, Rosemarie

[Guest guest]

Dear Tamara,

thanks a lot for what you wrote for me!

To put it that way " ------------------ , and this means .............. "

when there is a statement of fact, seems to be really helpful!

I felt more at peace for the rest of the day after I had read your

post - as well as that of Andy - even before doing the whole

work!

It was not easy for me to post this one.

Couple of weeks went bye and I was still hesitating.

Now I can see it´s good to do it!

Loving what is,

Rosemarie

>

> Hi Rosemarie

>

> >I ´ve got three problems presently:

>

> TA Only three!?

>

> When the thought is a statement of fact, it may help to add

> " (Fact)------- and that means

___________________________. "

>

> This will give you the beliefs to work -

>

> So if I do this one, it would be " I am old " and that means that

> 1 My lover will leave me

> 2 I'm going to die

> 3 I'll get sick and helpless

> 4 I'll never find another lover

> 5 I'll always be alone

> 6 I'll end up like my mother

> 7

> 8

> Ask the 4 questions and find the turnarounds.

> This is rich!

>

>

> > My cat died.

> And that means that _____________

> Is it true?

> Can you absolutely know that it's true

> etc

>

> > C) One of my plants died.

>

> Ditto

> Or

> I looked after my plant really well and it still died, and that

means

> ________________

>

> > D he is young and I am not!!!

> And that means _______________________ (find the

beliefs)

>

> Or even " I am old " Is it true? Can I absolutely know that it is

true?

> How do I react when I believe the thought I am old? Where do I

feel it

> in my body? How do I behave? What do I say and do? How do

I live my

> life when I believe I am old? etc.

> Who or what would I be (living my life, with my lover, with my

hair)

> without the thought " I am old " ?

>

> >I´m trying to wish reality to be something different than it is !

>

> Yes dear one, hopeless, and good that you can see it!

>

> > Have you guys got any suggestions ?

>

> Thank you so much for giving me this gift, Rosemarie. Very

meaningful

> for me.

>

> > Love, Rosemarie

>

> Love from Tamara

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Andy,

thanks for your thoughts!

Especially the story about the zen master I love very much!

It gave me great insight, obviously ....

Today I noticed for the first time that I could look on the dead

plant without the feelings of grief and pity ....

Strange, isn´t it?

Before I had learned about your story I " tried " not to be sad

because I thought I " should " accept reality.

When there is *permission* to mourning and being sad, then -

it´s done! .... This was my today`s experience!

Love,

Rosemarie

>

> Hi Rosemarie ~

>

>

> A few thoughts....

>

>

>

> I am old.

> Is that true? Yes! (end of the worksheet !!!!!!)

>

>

> ***** " Old " is a relative term.

>

>

>

> My cat died.

> Well, my cat died and - maybe - it was my fault...!

> (Because one night I got up and in the dark I unconsciously

> stepped my foot on her where she was lying on the carpet in

the

> middle of the room, which I didn´t know, but anyhow ...)

>

>

> *****The absence of a dear, close friend is accompanied by a

vaccum

> of energy that was previously present in physical form: your cat.

> There is a void now and you notice that. Feeling sorrow, grief,

a

> sense of loss, is perfectly normal. Whether or not your foot

> precipitated the cat's passing you will never know for certain,

so

> why beat yourself up over it? It was neither intentional nor

> planned. You miss your friend. Is there any need to

complicate

> matters beyond that at this point?

>

>

> C) One of my plants died.

> The one I have been cherishing for a number of years.

> I always was concerned about how to treat her well.

> Now the leaves began to fall and it seemed that the plant was

> suffering. I took advice from a gardener who suggested to put

the

> plant into another pot, which I did.

> And this was the end.

>

>

> *****Another passing which it sounds like you did your utmost

to

> avoid. What you may want to examine is whether " you "

Rosemarie have

> actually any " say " in these passings (as well as any " comings "

that

> appear in your life). Perhaps you are not the author of the

script

> called " Rosemaire's Life " ? What then?

>

>

>

> I feel disappointed, sad, also a little angry, worried and

confused

> and somehow guilty because my plant died, my cat died,

> and I feel confused and worried because - after all :-) - I´ve got

a

> young lover (which is great!!!) but only he is young and I am

not!!!

> (See above!)

> He assures me that he doesn´t care about the difference in

age,

> but - you know - I give a damn on what he is saying. And,

finally,

> if HE doesn´t care I do :-)

>

>

> *****Yes, that is the bottom line. There is some investment

> (a " mental program " that is running in Rosemarie's mind). As

you

> note below the investment is in things being different than they

are

> ( " I don't want to feel grief, anger, sadness, disappointment " .....if

> you fight these things, instead of letting them have their say,

they

> persist beyond their " natural " lifetimes....as the old psychology

> adage goes: whatever one resists, persists).

>

> Until there is acceptance of what is, there can be no genuine

peace.

> And within that acceptance there is room for the grieving of lost

> friends, plants, pets. The grieving just doesn't overwhelm. And

> there is far, far less confusion and upset. And yet, there can be

> grieving.

>

> Story: a young monk was walking in the monastery garden

when he

> heard sobbing. He came upon the monastery's zen master,

> crying. " What is the matter, master? " the young monk inquires.

The

> old abbot holds up a sheet of paper, saying, " I just received

this

> letter; my dearest nephew died an untimely death. " And he

begins

> sobbing again. " But master, " the young monk persists, " didn't

you

> repeatedly teach us that death is just an illusion? " At that, the

> zen master swats the boy's head with the letter, saying, " Of

course

> it is an illusion, you young fool! But it is the most painful

> illusion. "

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Rosemarie ~

You wrote, " Strange, isn´t it? Before I had learned about your story

I " tried " not to be sad because I thought I " should " accept reality.

When there is *permission* to mourning and being sad, then -

it´s done! .... This was my today`s experience! "

*****It's a curious split, isn't it? " Accept " reality, but only when

the reality is not grief, or anger, or any hurtful emotion. In that

case, do NOT accept it. I have learned to accept what I get, both

the pleasant and unpleasant.

None of this is an issue when the sense of self is entirely

eradicated. Perhaps there are people like that. I know of none.

Even the sages whom I personally know experience feelings, both

pleasant and unpleasant. The only difference is that they are not

invested in it being any other way. In short, they accept what is,

whatever " what " turns out to be. And, like any intelligence, if they

are in pain, most of them will take steps to lessen or remove the

pain. But pain, physical and emotional, ...... happens. The " trick "

is not to perpetuate it into suffering, which occurs when there is a

projecting of it, via thought, into an imagined future.

[Guest guest]

>

>

> *****It's a curious split, isn't it? " Accept " reality, but only

> when the reality is not grief, or anger, or any hurtful emotion.

> In that case, do NOT accept it. I have learned to accept what I

> get, both the pleasant and unpleasant.

>

My 2 cents worth

If I experience grief or anger it is ONLY because I have not been

vigilant enough to question the thought(s) which caused it. As

and many others have said " SUFFERING IS OPTIONAL " . What I know is

that if I experience grief or anger I have fallen asleep, I didn't

see and question the thought causing the grief or anger so now I

suffer. It certainly was NOT necessary for me to suffer, it was

simply the result of my lack of attention. Next time I will remember

to be more vigilant and avoid the pain. The whole message of the

Work is that it shows the way to the END OF SUFFERING and this can

be realized NOW! The goal of the Work and other disciplines like

ACIM is the " happy dream " which is characterised by NO SUFFERING. I

will leave you with a quote from which I think should be taken

very literally.

" Sanity doesn't suffer, ever . . . ever! Sanity doesn't suffer,

ever, ever! Isn't that lovely? " Byron

Have a beautiful day in this happy dream

[Guest guest]

If I experience grief or anger it is ONLY because I have not been

vigilant enough to question the thought(s) which caused it.

*****And why is that? You know, very well, how effective and useful

The Work is. Why does lack of vigilance happen?

What I know is that if I experience grief or anger I have fallen

asleep, I didn't see and question the thought causing the grief or

anger so now I suffer.

*****Yes. Once the painful feeling/emotion arises in consciousness,

THEN it can be questioned, and possibly undone. But first, prior to

that, one must be consciousness of it.

It certainly was NOT necessary for me to suffer, it was simply the

result of my lack of attention.

*****With all you know about The Work, why the lack of attention? I

would suggest, to quote you in a later post, the reason for the lack

of attention is because " we have NO control over the thoughts which

arise. " Doing The Work entails using thought (and non-thought also;

that's the " meditative " part of it). But if, as you say, we have " NO

control over the thoughts which arise, " then we have NO control over

when we do (or don't do) The Work. It seems entirely out of our

hands, eh? I'm not questioning the effectiveness of The Work; just

our ability to choose to employ it.

[Guest guest]

>

>

> *****With all you know about The Work, why the lack of attention?

> I would suggest, to quote you in a later post, the reason for the

> lack of attention is because " we have NO control over the thoughts

> which arise. " Doing The Work entails using thought (and non-

> thought also; that's the " meditative " part of it). But if, as you

> say, we have " NO control over the thoughts which arise, " then we

> have NO control over when we do (or don't do) The Work. It seems

> entirely out of our hands, eh? I'm not questioning the

> effectiveness of The Work; just our ability to choose to employ it.

>

LOL ... yes, love moves, then " I " get to tell the story about

how " I " did it. But the thing I love about the Work and ACIM is that

it IS NOT necessary to realize that there is no " I " . We get to keep

our imaginary " I " for as long as it makes us happy, and it's okay to

continue to believe that " I " am doing the Work. All " I " need to do

is question the nightmare until it becomes a " happy dream " , and from

there God does the rest. Even though the truth is that " I " am not

doing anything at all!

Have a beautiful day

" Eventually, every Band-Aid stops working, and our painful thoughts

ooze out. Only the truth can set us free, only the truth can stop

the pain, and only with the truth can we be truly intimate. " Byron