Re: Wondering aloud and wandering about....Doers and Not-Doers

March 27, 2006

Yeah, I too have wondered why I feel drawn to some people and not

others. And why some I feel so repulsed by.

I wonder if I'd like to be stranded with a duplicate of myself. What

would that be like.

Mostly I wanted to ask you what this means...

- " Obviously she works very hard at it. "

Why do you say that? I find it true, the saying 'if you love what

you do, you'll never have to work another day in your life.'

I wonder if sometimes she wouldn't just rather put her feet up and

watch tv, rather than go speak to large groups.

Anywho, I'll end here, cuz unless it's about Pictionary, I lose

interest purty dern quick.

Not-workin-very-hard-at-it

March 28, 2006

Dear Karin,

these days I don´t care what ´s truth is, or Steve´s or Andy´s

or Tami´s. I want to know, find out for myself. And actually

says: Don´t believe a word I say. Find out for yourself,

That´s a very good asvice I think. Go inside, question your beliefs,

and see what is true for YOU honey! That´s all that matters:)..

Love,

>

> I suppose I should probably save this till tomorrow and try to

edit

> for clarity, but my doer doesn't want to, LOL.

>

> I " m trying to sort of puzzle something out, so that it feels right

to

> me. It has to do with this idea that we're not the doer. I can't

> decide if that is a comforting or disturbing thought. Both,

perhaps.

> And it also has to do with how I'm trying to assimilate the work

into

> my life, and what it means to my life. And I can't help all this

> puzzling, it seems to just be what I do, LOL. But the answer has

to

> feel right in my gut. (there's " an answer " ?) And then, more idly

I'm

> wondering why does what she does,if none of us are the

doers.

> And if we're not, would we have found/embraced the work if it

wasn't

> out there in the world for us to find? Would we have found

the " next

> best thing " ? Personally, I have wandered through various areas of

> psychology and spirituality for many years, and yet the work is

the

> one that really seems to resonate for the last year. And yet

> sometimes it just bothers me--probably when I " m looking at it too

> much with the intellect and not enough with the heart (because

other

> times it seems very simple and peaceful).

>

> Anyway, I was thinking about the work, and how we are all here in

> this forum because we're drawn to it for whatever reason, and we

do

> or don't do our worksheets, perhaps because our organism, mind,

> heart, whatever has the impulse toward action of some kind, and

then

> we say we're doing it. OK, some of that feels right to me, in my

gut

> or heart, that I will just find myself doing something. And I

THINK

> sometimes this is reassuring, because it can take away a lot of

> painful self-judgment (and also some self-pride). But it still

feels

> like there's some choice. Like -- I'm KIND OF the doer (??)

>

> Whatever it is that makes me want to learn about the work and do

the

> work, I can feel THAT as just being part of my makeup, not really

> under my control. I've always been drawn towards asking some of

> the " big questions " about life, interested in hearing other

people's

> answers, and it seems like many of us here feel that way, too. As

> well, there is that common human impulse to learn a way to avoid

pain

> and unhappinness...another reason why we like the work -- or why I

> do, anyway.

>

> So if I was stranded on a desert island, and there was one person

> there who had SOME sort of philospy or psychology of life, I " m

sure

> I " d be drawn to that person (rather than leaving them alone on

their

> side of the island) so that we could converse on these ways of

> understanding ourselves, life, our universe...But the conservative

> fundamentalist I might be interested to talk if her or she was the

> only other inhabitant, but I would like to just talk to them and

> think about what they say, but there'd be no " click. "

>

> So then if there were three other people, let's say, with three

> differing philophies, maybe a Buddhist, and a fundamentalist

> Christian, and .... um, a cognitve therapist, I know I would be

drawn

> more to one over the others. Someone's philospy I might just find

> intersting to discuss during our long days on the island, but

another

> belief system I want to embrace.

>

> So I can imagine which one I'm drawn to is really not my choice,

not

> my doing. There's an innate impulse in me drawn to a certain TYPE

of

> worldview. (no fire and brimstone for me). And I know (can't

really

> know but bear with me) if were there, she would be the one I

> was drawn to most of all. But how does one of these philosphies

> really stick?

>

> OK, and the other thing I wondering. Why does go out and

spread

> the work to a vast number of people? Just wondering, not being in

her

> business particularly ;-) Obviously she works very hard at it. If

> she's not the doer, then she just can't help herself, right? But

> doesn't she (or someone like her )feel like she can REACH someone

out

> there? Like she can motivate them or draw them or attract them in

> some way? And if we're not the doer, we will respond or not

respond

> We have nothing to do with that?. If only a certain number of

people

> will find themselves drawn to it, working with it, dedicating

> themselves to it for at least a time, and some for life...is it a

> numbers kind of thing? Certain people who happen to cross paths

with

> or the work just need to have the right...attraction?

impulse?

> when this certain worldview comes along?

>

> I guess what I " m thinking is that I " m not the doer as far as what

I " m

> attracted to as a philosophy, what happens if just stayed at

> home doing her own thing and none of us had ever heard of her? It

> seems like a lot of us are still " seekers " of some kind. So if the

> work wasn't around, we find ACIM or buddhism or something else?

>

> I feel like the attraction is something that I don't control, but

> there still is a " I like this " / " don't like this & I'm going to

keep

> looking " feeling where I AM the doer/chooser. I seem to find this

> idea reassuring.

>

> /end of pondering

> Want to do something fun now... Lite? Pictionary?

>

March 28, 2006

Oh, Karin, this is a great!

Thank you that you posted this ! It is almost exactly the same

things I´ve been pondering about these days ....

since a question of mine had provoked all that decision-maker-

stuff. Responsibility , " I´m not the doer " ...

But now I need to have a break

I want to go out to get some airing for my head !!!

See you later,

thanks,

R.

>

> I suppose I should probably save this till tomorrow and try to

edit

> for clarity, but my doer doesn't want to, LOL.

>

> I " m trying to sort of puzzle something out, so that it feels right to

> me. It has to do with this idea that we're not the doer. I can't

> decide if that is a comforting or disturbing thought. Both,

perhaps.

> And it also has to do with how I'm trying to assimilate the work

into

> my life, and what it means to my life. And I can't help all this

> puzzling, it seems to just be what I do, LOL. But the answer

has to

> feel right in my gut. (there's " an answer " ?) And then, more idly

I'm

> wondering why does what she does,if none of us are the

doers.

> And if we're not, would we have found/embraced the work if it

wasn't

> out there in the world for us to find? Would we have found the

" next

> best thing " ? Personally, I have wandered through various

areas of

> psychology and spirituality for many years, and yet the work is

the

> one that really seems to resonate for the last year. And yet

> sometimes it just bothers me--probably when I " m looking at it

too

> much with the intellect and not enough with the heart (because

other

> times it seems very simple and peaceful).

>

> Anyway, I was thinking about the work, and how we are all here

in

> this forum because we're drawn to it for whatever reason, and

we do

> or don't do our worksheets, perhaps because our organism,

mind,

> heart, whatever has the impulse toward action of some kind,

and then

> we say we're doing it. OK, some of that feels right to me, in my

gut

> or heart, that I will just find myself doing something. And I

THINK

> sometimes this is reassuring, because it can take away a lot

of

> painful self-judgment (and also some self-pride). But it still

feels

> like there's some choice. Like -- I'm KIND OF the doer (??)

>

> Whatever it is that makes me want to learn about the work and

do the

> work, I can feel THAT as just being part of my makeup, not

really

> under my control. I've always been drawn towards asking

some of

> the " big questions " about life, interested in hearing other

people's

> answers, and it seems like many of us here feel that way, too.

As

> well, there is that common human impulse to learn a way to

avoid pain

> and unhappinness...another reason why we like the work -- or

why I

> do, anyway.

>

> So if I was stranded on a desert island, and there was one

person

> there who had SOME sort of philospy or psychology of life, I " m

sure

> I " d be drawn to that person (rather than leaving them alone on

their

> side of the island) so that we could converse on these ways of

> understanding ourselves, life, our universe...But the

conservative

> fundamentalist I might be interested to talk if her or she was

the

> only other inhabitant, but I would like to just talk to them and

> think about what they say, but there'd be no " click. "

>

> So then if there were three other people, let's say, with three

> differing philophies, maybe a Buddhist, and a fundamentalist

> Christian, and .... um, a cognitve therapist, I know I would be

drawn

> more to one over the others. Someone's philospy I might just

find

> intersting to discuss during our long days on the island, but

another

> belief system I want to embrace.

>

> So I can imagine which one I'm drawn to is really not my

choice, not

> my doing. There's an innate impulse in me drawn to a certain

TYPE of

> worldview. (no fire and brimstone for me). And I know (can't

really

> know but bear with me) if were there, she would be the

one I

> was drawn to most of all. But how does one of these

philosphies

> really stick?

>

> OK, and the other thing I wondering. Why does go out

and spread

> the work to a vast number of people? Just wondering, not

being in her

> business particularly ;-) Obviously she works very hard at it. If

> she's not the doer, then she just can't help herself, right? But

> doesn't she (or someone like her )feel like she can REACH

someone out

> there? Like she can motivate them or draw them or attract

them in

> some way? And if we're not the doer, we will respond or not

respond

> We have nothing to do with that?. If only a certain number of

people

> will find themselves drawn to it, working with it, dedicating

> themselves to it for at least a time, and some for life...is it a

> numbers kind of thing? Certain people who happen to cross

paths with

> or the work just need to have the right...attraction?

impulse?

> when this certain worldview comes along?

>

> I guess what I " m thinking is that I " m not the doer as far as what

I " m

> attracted to as a philosophy, what happens if just stayed

at

> home doing her own thing and none of us had ever heard of

her? It

> seems like a lot of us are still " seekers " of some kind. So if the

> work wasn't around, we find ACIM or buddhism or something

else?

>

> I feel like the attraction is something that I don't control, but

> there still is a " I like this " / " don't like this & I'm going to keep

> looking " feeling where I AM the doer/chooser. I seem to find

this

> idea reassuring.

>

> /end of pondering

> Want to do something fun now... Lite? Pictionary?

>

March 28, 2006

Dear Karin,

Would you like to make a list for proofs that you are not the doer?

And would you make a list for proofs that you are the doer?

You asked these things about being with someone on an island. What I

hear is that you would want to learn more from some people than from

others. You are more interested in the people you are attracted to.

And those seem the ones you share stories with.

Find out about your own choices before you give yourself a hard time

about other people's choices.

Love,

Am 28.03.2006 um 06:26 schrieb Karin:

> I suppose I should probably save this till tomorrow and try to edit

> for clarity, but my doer doesn't want to, LOL.

>

> I " m trying to sort of puzzle something out, so that it feels right to

> me. It has to do with this idea that we're not the doer. I can't

> decide if that is a comforting or disturbing thought. Both, perhaps.

> And it also has to do with how I'm trying to assimilate the work into

> my life, and what it means to my life. And I can't help all this

> puzzling, it seems to just be what I do, LOL. But the answer has to

> feel right in my gut. (there's " an answer " ?) And then, more idly I'm

> wondering why does what she does,if none of us are the doers.

> And if we're not, would we have found/embraced the work if it wasn't

> out there in the world for us to find? Would we have found the " next

> best thing " ? Personally, I have wandered through various areas of

> psychology and spirituality for many years, and yet the work is the

> one that really seems to resonate for the last year. And yet

> sometimes it just bothers me--probably when I " m looking at it too

> much with the intellect and not enough with the heart (because other

> times it seems very simple and peaceful).

>

> Anyway, I was thinking about the work, and how we are all here in

> this forum because we're drawn to it for whatever reason, and we do

> or don't do our worksheets, perhaps because our organism, mind,

> heart, whatever has the impulse toward action of some kind, and then

> we say we're doing it. OK, some of that feels right to me, in my gut

> or heart, that I will just find myself doing something. And I THINK

> sometimes this is reassuring, because it can take away a lot of

> painful self-judgment (and also some self-pride). But it still feels

> like there's some choice. Like -- I'm KIND OF the doer (??)

>

> Whatever it is that makes me want to learn about the work and do the

> work, I can feel THAT as just being part of my makeup, not really

> under my control. I've always been drawn towards asking some of

> the " big questions " about life, interested in hearing other people's

> answers, and it seems like many of us here feel that way, too. As

> well, there is that common human impulse to learn a way to avoid pain

> and unhappinness...another reason why we like the work -- or why I

> do, anyway.

>

> So if I was stranded on a desert island, and there was one person

> there who had SOME sort of philospy or psychology of life, I " m sure

> I " d be drawn to that person (rather than leaving them alone on their

> side of the island) so that we could converse on these ways of

> understanding ourselves, life, our universe...But the conservative

> fundamentalist I might be interested to talk if her or she was the

> only other inhabitant, but I would like to just talk to them and

> think about what they say, but there'd be no " click. "

>

> So then if there were three other people, let's say, with three

> differing philophies, maybe a Buddhist, and a fundamentalist

> Christian, and .... um, a cognitve therapist, I know I would be drawn

> more to one over the others. Someone's philospy I might just find

> intersting to discuss during our long days on the island, but another

> belief system I want to embrace.

>

> So I can imagine which one I'm drawn to is really not my choice, not

> my doing. There's an innate impulse in me drawn to a certain TYPE of

> worldview. (no fire and brimstone for me). And I know (can't really

> know but bear with me) if were there, she would be the one I

> was drawn to most of all. But how does one of these philosphies

> really stick?

>

> OK, and the other thing I wondering. Why does go out and spread

> the work to a vast number of people? Just wondering, not being in her

> business particularly ;-) Obviously she works very hard at it. If

> she's not the doer, then she just can't help herself, right? But

> doesn't she (or someone like her )feel like she can REACH someone out

> there? Like she can motivate them or draw them or attract them in

> some way? And if we're not the doer, we will respond or not respond

> We have nothing to do with that?. If only a certain number of people

> will find themselves drawn to it, working with it, dedicating

> themselves to it for at least a time, and some for life...is it a

> numbers kind of thing? Certain people who happen to cross paths with

> or the work just need to have the right...attraction? impulse?

> when this certain worldview comes along?

>

> I guess what I " m thinking is that I " m not the doer as far as what I " m

> attracted to as a philosophy, what happens if just stayed at

> home doing her own thing and none of us had ever heard of her? It

> seems like a lot of us are still " seekers " of some kind. So if the

> work wasn't around, we find ACIM or buddhism or something else?

>

> I feel like the attraction is something that I don't control, but

> there still is a " I like this " / " don't like this & I'm going to keep

> looking " feeling where I AM the doer/chooser. I seem to find this

> idea reassuring.

>

> /end of pondering

> Want to do something fun now... Lite? Pictionary?

>

March 28, 2006

I " m trying to sort of puzzle something out, so that it feels right to

me. It has to do with this idea that we're not the doer. I can't

decide if that is a comforting or disturbing thought. Both, perhaps.

*****But a useful insight, perhaps?

And then, more idly I'm wondering why does what she does,if

none of us are the doers.

***** is too far removed to be of use. Consider what Karin does

and what is done by Karin. Go the the source, the root, not the limb.

And if we're not, would we have found/embraced the work if it wasn't

out there in the world for us to find? Would we have found the " next

best thing " ? Personally, I have wandered through various areas of

psychology and spirituality for many years, and yet the work is the

one that really seems to resonate for the last year. And yet

sometimes it just bothers me--probably when I " m looking at it too

much with the intellect and not enough with the heart (because other

times it seems very simple and peaceful).

*****You can ONLY do what you are guided to do. You ARE the doer

through whom doing happens. You are not the Author of the script,

however, which dictates what doing will happen.

Anyway, I was thinking about the work, and how we are all here in

this forum because we're drawn to it for whatever reason, and we do

or don't do our worksheets, perhaps because our organism, mind,

heart, whatever has the impulse toward action of some kind, and then

we say we're doing it. OK, some of that feels right to me, in my gut

or heart, that I will just find myself doing something. And I THINK

sometimes this is reassuring, because it can take away a lot of

painful self-judgment (and also some self-pride). But it still feels

like there's some choice. Like -- I'm KIND OF the doer (??)

*****Sure you ARE the doer! When your butt itches, YOU scatch it,

you don't get andy or steve or maria to scratch it for you. Again:

doing happens through apparent bodymind organisms....instruments...of

Totality. However, what is to be done is not up to the bodymind

organism. That is directed by the Author, the One which penned the

script.

Whatever it is that makes me want to learn about the work and do the

work, I can feel THAT as just being part of my makeup, not really

under my control.

*****First level of realization: nothing is under your control.

Ultimate level of awakening: there is no 'you' here to have ever had

control. The 'you' we refer to is a " useful fiction. " An effective

tool of communication. And, like a mirage, although it can be seen,

when examined closely, it just doesn't, and never did, exist.

I've always been drawn towards asking some of the " big questions "

about life, interested in hearing other people's

answers, and it seems like many of us here feel that way, too. As

well, there is that common human impulse to learn a way to avoid pain

and unhappinness...another reason why we like the work -- or why I

do, anyway.

*****Another illusion dashed. :-)) There are plenty of people who do

the work and DON'T experience relief from their suffering (just as

there are many who don't experience success with meditation,

psychotherapy, prayer, ... whatever). The Work " works " when it is

supposed to. But not always nor for everyone. In this, as in all

other things, there is much individuality.

So if I was stranded on a desert island, and there was one person

there who had SOME sort of philospy or psychology of life, I " m sure

I " d be drawn to that person (rather than leaving them alone on their

side of the island) so that we could converse on these ways of

understanding ourselves, life, our universe...But the conservative

fundamentalist I might be interested to talk if her or she was the

only other inhabitant, but I would like to just talk to them and

think about what they say, but there'd be no " click. "

So then if there were three other people, let's say, with three

differing philophies, maybe a Buddhist, and a fundamentalist

Christian, and .... um, a cognitve therapist, I know I would be drawn

more to one over the others. Someone's philospy I might just find

intersting to discuss during our long days on the island, but another

belief system I want to embrace.

So I can imagine which one I'm drawn to is really not my choice, not

my doing. There's an innate impulse in me drawn to a certain TYPE of

worldview. (no fire and brimstone for me). And I know (can't really

know but bear with me) if were there, she would be the one I

was drawn to most of all. But how does one of these philosphies

really stick?

OK, and the other thing I wondering. Why does go out and spread

the work to a vast number of people?

*****She, like you, like me, like ALL bodymind organisms....has NO

choice. When a thought -- which is too compelling to resist --

arises, action happens through the bodymind organism. It is really

that simple. (To check this out, you find it useful to try the test

which is supplied by Byron in " I Need Your Love? Is This

True. " )

Just wondering, not being in her business particularly ;-) Obviously

she works very hard at it. If she's not the doer, then she just can't

help herself, right? But doesn't she (or someone like her )feel like

she can REACH someone out there? Like she can motivate them or draw

them or attract them in some way?

*****Gone astry there. Motivation can happen. But to ascribe it to

a motivator is confusion.

And if we're not the doer, we will respond or not respond

We have nothing to do with that?. If only a certain number of people

will find themselves drawn to it, working with it, dedicating

themselves to it for at least a time, and some for life...is it a

numbers kind of thing? Certain people who happen to cross paths with

or the work just need to have the right...attraction? impulse?

when this certain worldview comes along?

*****Yes. As in all things it is simply a function of resonance. It

depends on the time, place, and circumstance. Not your intentions,

good will, or wants/wishes. None of it is yours.

I guess what I " m thinking is that I " m not the doer as far as what I " m

attracted to as a philosophy, what happens if just stayed at

home doing her own thing and none of us had ever heard of her? It

seems like a lot of us are still " seekers " of some kind. So if the

work wasn't around, we find ACIM or buddhism or something else?

*****Possibly. Who knows? And, more to the point, WHO cares? (A

classic Advaita pointer) You can keep asking hypothetical questions

all your life. As a zen master has said about some of his more

quizzical students (me -- Hahaha!!!)): " They want to know

everything. Where are we going? Where are we coming from? That way

you can keep on asking all your life. " (At least at some point,

here, that lesson was learned.)

I feel like the attraction is something that I don't control, but

there still is a " I like this " / " don't like this & I'm going to keep

looking " feeling where I AM the doer/chooser. I seem to find this

idea reassuring.

*****Sure. The 'sense of self' is the last thing to go. You didn't

create it -- you can't uncreate it. As said,

" The world doesn't exist and we just come to see that clearly. It's

all an illusion. It never did exist. There is no way it can exist-

it's all the reflection of a concept attached to inside. There is No

One and Nothing. It's literal. Are you ready to live without a world?

Is that what you really want? Are you willing to lose the moon? "

Most bodymind mechanisms are so wired as to prefer (not of their own

volition, by the way)...to prefer upset, dis-ease, suffering, ...

to " losing the moon. "

You may find it interesting to consider the words of a contemporary

British nondual teacher, Tony Parsons,

" What we all have is a deep longing and a deep fear of the discovery

of what we are, and the mind devises any way it can to avoid this

discovering. The most effective way it avoids awakening is to seek

it...You just need to see that you cannot do anything to be what

you already are; just open your eyes and see that this is it. Even

your question is the answer to your question. "

March 28, 2006

I dont get it where did she give anyone a hard time about their

choices. ???

I didnt read that into it.

I think we are attracted to people on the same level. We're on a path

and whatever path is best for us at the time we take.

love, roslyn

-- In Loving-what-is , wrote:

>

> Dear Karin,

>

> Would you like to make a list for proofs that you are not the doer?

> And would you make a list for proofs that you are the doer?

>

> You asked these things about being with someone on an island. What I

> hear is that you would want to learn more from some people than from

> others. You are more interested in the people you are attracted to.

> And those seem the ones you share stories with.

>

> Find out about your own choices before you give yourself a hard time

> about other people's choices.

>

> Love,

>

> Am 28.03.2006 um 06:26 schrieb Karin:

>

> > I suppose I should probably save this till tomorrow and try to edit

> > for clarity, but my doer doesn't want to, LOL.

> >

> > I " m trying to sort of puzzle something out, so that it feels right to

> > me. It has to do with this idea that we're not the doer. I can't

> > decide if that is a comforting or disturbing thought. Both, perhaps.

> > And it also has to do with how I'm trying to assimilate the work into

> > my life, and what it means to my life. And I can't help all this

> > puzzling, it seems to just be what I do, LOL. But the answer has to

> > feel right in my gut. (there's " an answer " ?) And then, more idly I'm

> > wondering why does what she does,if none of us are the doers.

> > And if we're not, would we have found/embraced the work if it wasn't

> > out there in the world for us to find? Would we have found the " next

> > best thing " ? Personally, I have wandered through various areas of

> > psychology and spirituality for many years, and yet the work is the

> > one that really seems to resonate for the last year. And yet

> > sometimes it just bothers me--probably when I " m looking at it too

> > much with the intellect and not enough with the heart (because other

> > times it seems very simple and peaceful).

> >

> > Anyway, I was thinking about the work, and how we are all here in

> > this forum because we're drawn to it for whatever reason, and we do

> > or don't do our worksheets, perhaps because our organism, mind,

> > heart, whatever has the impulse toward action of some kind, and then

> > we say we're doing it. OK, some of that feels right to me, in my gut

> > or heart, that I will just find myself doing something. And I THINK

> > sometimes this is reassuring, because it can take away a lot of

> > painful self-judgment (and also some self-pride). But it still feels

> > like there's some choice. Like -- I'm KIND OF the doer (??)

> >

> > Whatever it is that makes me want to learn about the work and do the

> > work, I can feel THAT as just being part of my makeup, not really

> > under my control. I've always been drawn towards asking some of

> > the " big questions " about life, interested in hearing other people's

> > answers, and it seems like many of us here feel that way, too. As

> > well, there is that common human impulse to learn a way to avoid pain

> > and unhappinness...another reason why we like the work -- or why I

> > do, anyway.

> >

> > So if I was stranded on a desert island, and there was one person

> > there who had SOME sort of philospy or psychology of life, I " m sure

> > I " d be drawn to that person (rather than leaving them alone on their

> > side of the island) so that we could converse on these ways of

> > understanding ourselves, life, our universe...But the conservative

> > fundamentalist I might be interested to talk if her or she was the

> > only other inhabitant, but I would like to just talk to them and

> > think about what they say, but there'd be no " click. "

> >

> > So then if there were three other people, let's say, with three

> > differing philophies, maybe a Buddhist, and a fundamentalist

> > Christian, and .... um, a cognitve therapist, I know I would be drawn

> > more to one over the others. Someone's philospy I might just find

> > intersting to discuss during our long days on the island, but another

> > belief system I want to embrace.

> >

> > So I can imagine which one I'm drawn to is really not my choice, not

> > my doing. There's an innate impulse in me drawn to a certain TYPE of

> > worldview. (no fire and brimstone for me). And I know (can't really

> > know but bear with me) if were there, she would be the one I

> > was drawn to most of all. But how does one of these philosphies

> > really stick?

> >

> > OK, and the other thing I wondering. Why does go out and spread

> > the work to a vast number of people? Just wondering, not being in her

> > business particularly ;-) Obviously she works very hard at it. If

> > she's not the doer, then she just can't help herself, right? But

> > doesn't she (or someone like her )feel like she can REACH someone out

> > there? Like she can motivate them or draw them or attract them in

> > some way? And if we're not the doer, we will respond or not respond

> > We have nothing to do with that?. If only a certain number of people

> > will find themselves drawn to it, working with it, dedicating

> > themselves to it for at least a time, and some for life...is it a

> > numbers kind of thing? Certain people who happen to cross paths with

> > or the work just need to have the right...attraction? impulse?

> > when this certain worldview comes along?

> >

> > I guess what I " m thinking is that I " m not the doer as far as what I " m

> > attracted to as a philosophy, what happens if just stayed at

> > home doing her own thing and none of us had ever heard of her? It

> > seems like a lot of us are still " seekers " of some kind. So if the

> > work wasn't around, we find ACIM or buddhism or something else?

> >

> > I feel like the attraction is something that I don't control, but

> > there still is a " I like this " / " don't like this & I'm going to keep

> > looking " feeling where I AM the doer/chooser. I seem to find this

> > idea reassuring.

> >

> > /end of pondering

> > Want to do something fun now... Lite? Pictionary?

> >

March 28, 2006

Hi R,

I think he meant I give MYSELF a hard time about other people's

choices. And thanks for thinking of me :-)

K

> >

> > Dear Karin,

> >

> > Would you like to make a list for proofs that you are not the

doer?

> > And would you make a list for proofs that you are the doer?

> >

> > You asked these things about being with someone on an island.

What I

> > hear is that you would want to learn more from some people than

from

> > others. You are more interested in the people you are attracted

to.

> > And those seem the ones you share stories with.

> >

> > Find out about your own choices before you give yourself a hard

time

> > about other people's choices.

> >

> > Love,

> >

> > Am 28.03.2006 um 06:26 schrieb Karin:

> >

> > > I suppose I should probably save this till tomorrow and try to

edit

> > > for clarity, but my doer doesn't want to, LOL.

> > >

> > > I " m trying to sort of puzzle something out, so that it feels

right to

> > > me. It has to do with this idea that we're not the doer. I

can't

> > > decide if that is a comforting or disturbing thought. Both,

perhaps.

> > > And it also has to do with how I'm trying to assimilate the

work into

> > > my life, and what it means to my life. And I can't help all this

> > > puzzling, it seems to just be what I do, LOL. But the answer

has to

> > > feel right in my gut. (there's " an answer " ?) And then, more

idly I'm

> > > wondering why does what she does,if none of us are the

doers.

> > > And if we're not, would we have found/embraced the work if it

wasn't

> > > out there in the world for us to find? Would we have found

the " next

> > > best thing " ? Personally, I have wandered through various areas

of

> > > psychology and spirituality for many years, and yet the work is

the

> > > one that really seems to resonate for the last year. And yet

> > > sometimes it just bothers me--probably when I " m looking at it

too

> > > much with the intellect and not enough with the heart (because

other

> > > times it seems very simple and peaceful).

> > >

> > > Anyway, I was thinking about the work, and how we are all here

in

> > > this forum because we're drawn to it for whatever reason, and

we do

> > > or don't do our worksheets, perhaps because our organism, mind,

> > > heart, whatever has the impulse toward action of some kind, and

then

> > > we say we're doing it. OK, some of that feels right to me, in

my gut

> > > or heart, that I will just find myself doing something. And I

THINK

> > > sometimes this is reassuring, because it can take away a lot of

> > > painful self-judgment (and also some self-pride). But it still

feels

> > > like there's some choice. Like -- I'm KIND OF the doer (??)

> > >

> > > Whatever it is that makes me want to learn about the work and

do the

> > > work, I can feel THAT as just being part of my makeup, not

really

> > > under my control. I've always been drawn towards asking some of

> > > the " big questions " about life, interested in hearing other

people's

> > > answers, and it seems like many of us here feel that way, too.

As

> > > well, there is that common human impulse to learn a way to

avoid pain

> > > and unhappinness...another reason why we like the work -- or

why I

> > > do, anyway.

> > >

> > > So if I was stranded on a desert island, and there was one

person

> > > there who had SOME sort of philospy or psychology of life, I " m

sure

> > > I " d be drawn to that person (rather than leaving them alone on

their

> > > side of the island) so that we could converse on these ways of

> > > understanding ourselves, life, our universe...But the

conservative

> > > fundamentalist I might be interested to talk if her or she was

the

> > > only other inhabitant, but I would like to just talk to them and

> > > think about what they say, but there'd be no " click. "

> > >

> > > So then if there were three other people, let's say, with three

> > > differing philophies, maybe a Buddhist, and a fundamentalist

> > > Christian, and .... um, a cognitve therapist, I know I would be

drawn

> > > more to one over the others. Someone's philospy I might just

find

> > > intersting to discuss during our long days on the island, but

another

> > > belief system I want to embrace.

> > >

> > > So I can imagine which one I'm drawn to is really not my

choice, not

> > > my doing. There's an innate impulse in me drawn to a certain

TYPE of

> > > worldview. (no fire and brimstone for me). And I know (can't

really

> > > know but bear with me) if were there, she would be the

one I

> > > was drawn to most of all. But how does one of these philosphies

> > > really stick?

> > >

> > > OK, and the other thing I wondering. Why does go out and

spread

> > > the work to a vast number of people? Just wondering, not being

in her

> > > business particularly ;-) Obviously she works very hard at it.

If

> > > she's not the doer, then she just can't help herself, right? But

> > > doesn't she (or someone like her )feel like she can REACH

someone out

> > > there? Like she can motivate them or draw them or attract them

in

> > > some way? And if we're not the doer, we will respond or not

respond

> > > We have nothing to do with that?. If only a certain number of

people

> > > will find themselves drawn to it, working with it, dedicating

> > > themselves to it for at least a time, and some for life...is it

a

> > > numbers kind of thing? Certain people who happen to cross paths

with

> > > or the work just need to have the right...attraction?

impulse?

> > > when this certain worldview comes along?

> > >

> > > I guess what I " m thinking is that I " m not the doer as far as

what I " m

> > > attracted to as a philosophy, what happens if just stayed

at

> > > home doing her own thing and none of us had ever heard of her?

It

> > > seems like a lot of us are still " seekers " of some kind. So if

the

> > > work wasn't around, we find ACIM or buddhism or something else?

> > >

> > > I feel like the attraction is something that I don't control,

but

> > > there still is a " I like this " / " don't like this & I'm going to

keep

> > > looking " feeling where I AM the doer/chooser. I seem to find

this

> > > idea reassuring.

> > >

> > > /end of pondering

> > > Want to do something fun now... Lite? Pictionary?

> > >

March 28, 2006

oh ok.. i do that too actually.

My kids should read.....

thanks r.

-- In Loving-what-is , " Karin " wrote:

>

> Hi R,

> I think he meant I give MYSELF a hard time about other people's

> choices. And thanks for thinking of me :-)

> K

>

> > >

> > > Dear Karin,

> > >

> > > Would you like to make a list for proofs that you are not the

> doer?

> > > And would you make a list for proofs that you are the doer?

> > >

> > > You asked these things about being with someone on an island.

> What I

> > > hear is that you would want to learn more from some people than

> from

> > > others. You are more interested in the people you are attracted

> to.

> > > And those seem the ones you share stories with.

> > >

> > > Find out about your own choices before you give yourself a hard

> time

> > > about other people's choices.

> > >

> > > Love,

> > >

> > > Am 28.03.2006 um 06:26 schrieb Karin:

> > >

> > > > I suppose I should probably save this till tomorrow and try to

> edit

> > > > for clarity, but my doer doesn't want to, LOL.

> > > >

> > > > I " m trying to sort of puzzle something out, so that it feels

> right to

> > > > me. It has to do with this idea that we're not the doer. I

> can't

> > > > decide if that is a comforting or disturbing thought. Both,

> perhaps.

> > > > And it also has to do with how I'm trying to assimilate the

> work into

> > > > my life, and what it means to my life. And I can't help all this

> > > > puzzling, it seems to just be what I do, LOL. But the answer

> has to

> > > > feel right in my gut. (there's " an answer " ?) And then, more

> idly I'm

> > > > wondering why does what she does,if none of us are the

> doers.

> > > > And if we're not, would we have found/embraced the work if it

> wasn't

> > > > out there in the world for us to find? Would we have found

> the " next

> > > > best thing " ? Personally, I have wandered through various areas

> of

> > > > psychology and spirituality for many years, and yet the work is

> the

> > > > one that really seems to resonate for the last year. And yet

> > > > sometimes it just bothers me--probably when I " m looking at it

> too

> > > > much with the intellect and not enough with the heart (because

> other

> > > > times it seems very simple and peaceful).

> > > >

> > > > Anyway, I was thinking about the work, and how we are all here

> in

> > > > this forum because we're drawn to it for whatever reason, and

> we do

> > > > or don't do our worksheets, perhaps because our organism, mind,

> > > > heart, whatever has the impulse toward action of some kind, and

> then

> > > > we say we're doing it. OK, some of that feels right to me, in

> my gut

> > > > or heart, that I will just find myself doing something. And I

> THINK

> > > > sometimes this is reassuring, because it can take away a lot of

> > > > painful self-judgment (and also some self-pride). But it still

> feels

> > > > like there's some choice. Like -- I'm KIND OF the doer (??)

> > > >

> > > > Whatever it is that makes me want to learn about the work and

> do the

> > > > work, I can feel THAT as just being part of my makeup, not

> really

> > > > under my control. I've always been drawn towards asking some of

> > > > the " big questions " about life, interested in hearing other

> people's

> > > > answers, and it seems like many of us here feel that way, too.

> As

> > > > well, there is that common human impulse to learn a way to

> avoid pain

> > > > and unhappinness...another reason why we like the work -- or

> why I

> > > > do, anyway.

> > > >

> > > > So if I was stranded on a desert island, and there was one

> person

> > > > there who had SOME sort of philospy or psychology of life, I " m

> sure

> > > > I " d be drawn to that person (rather than leaving them alone on

> their

> > > > side of the island) so that we could converse on these ways of

> > > > understanding ourselves, life, our universe...But the

> conservative

> > > > fundamentalist I might be interested to talk if her or she was

> the

> > > > only other inhabitant, but I would like to just talk to them and

> > > > think about what they say, but there'd be no " click. "

> > > >

> > > > So then if there were three other people, let's say, with three

> > > > differing philophies, maybe a Buddhist, and a fundamentalist

> > > > Christian, and .... um, a cognitve therapist, I know I would be

> drawn

> > > > more to one over the others. Someone's philospy I might just

> find

> > > > intersting to discuss during our long days on the island, but

> another

> > > > belief system I want to embrace.

> > > >

> > > > So I can imagine which one I'm drawn to is really not my

> choice, not

> > > > my doing. There's an innate impulse in me drawn to a certain

> TYPE of

> > > > worldview. (no fire and brimstone for me). And I know (can't

> really

> > > > know but bear with me) if were there, she would be the

> one I

> > > > was drawn to most of all. But how does one of these philosphies

> > > > really stick?

> > > >

> > > > OK, and the other thing I wondering. Why does go out and

> spread

> > > > the work to a vast number of people? Just wondering, not being

> in her

> > > > business particularly ;-) Obviously she works very hard at it.

> If

> > > > she's not the doer, then she just can't help herself, right? But

> > > > doesn't she (or someone like her )feel like she can REACH

> someone out

> > > > there? Like she can motivate them or draw them or attract them

> in

> > > > some way? And if we're not the doer, we will respond or not

> respond

> > > > We have nothing to do with that?. If only a certain number of

> people

> > > > will find themselves drawn to it, working with it, dedicating

> > > > themselves to it for at least a time, and some for life...is it

> a

> > > > numbers kind of thing? Certain people who happen to cross paths

> with

> > > > or the work just need to have the right...attraction?

> impulse?

> > > > when this certain worldview comes along?

> > > >

> > > > I guess what I " m thinking is that I " m not the doer as far as

> what I " m

> > > > attracted to as a philosophy, what happens if just stayed

> at

> > > > home doing her own thing and none of us had ever heard of her?

> It

> > > > seems like a lot of us are still " seekers " of some kind. So if

> the

> > > > work wasn't around, we find ACIM or buddhism or something else?

> > > >

> > > > I feel like the attraction is something that I don't control,

> but

> > > > there still is a " I like this " / " don't like this & I'm going to

> keep

> > > > looking " feeling where I AM the doer/chooser. I seem to find

> this

> > > > idea reassuring.

> > > >

> > > > /end of pondering

> > > > Want to do something fun now... Lite? Pictionary?

> > > >

March 28, 2006

Hi Andy,

Thanks for your long response and attention.

I will mull that over. I liked the part about the students and their

eternal questions, ha ha! I agree with much of what you wrote, but

some doesn't resonate.

On one hand I hear you saying that each of us our individuals who

find our own way. On the other hand, it seems like you are saying

there is a " right " space to reach -- and that right space is

believing that we are not the doer.

Isn't it possible that this is true for you and others, but not true

for me?

Or really, I'm thinking of what said, which had the most

resonance of anything said the last few days, which was " If I feel

peaceful, does it matter what I believe? " I'm drawn to the pure

simplicity of that.

Hm, so that tells me that the answer to the question " Am I the doer? "

is: Karin, does it stress you? If so, do the work.

And by the way, I'm pretty sure or Steve would scratch my ass

if I asked them to! ;-)

Anyway, thanks again for the discussion.

>

> I " m trying to sort of puzzle something out, so that it feels right

to

> me. It has to do with this idea that we're not the doer. I can't

> decide if that is a comforting or disturbing thought. Both, perhaps.

>

> *****But a useful insight, perhaps?

>

> And then, more idly I'm wondering why does what she does,if

> none of us are the doers.

>

> ***** is too far removed to be of use. Consider what Karin

does

> and what is done by Karin. Go the the source, the root, not the

limb.

>

> And if we're not, would we have found/embraced the work if it wasn't

> out there in the world for us to find? Would we have found the " next

> best thing " ? Personally, I have wandered through various areas of

> psychology and spirituality for many years, and yet the work is the

> one that really seems to resonate for the last year. And yet

> sometimes it just bothers me--probably when I " m looking at it too

> much with the intellect and not enough with the heart (because other

> times it seems very simple and peaceful).

>

> *****You can ONLY do what you are guided to do. You ARE the doer

> through whom doing happens. You are not the Author of the script,

> however, which dictates what doing will happen.