Re: blood vs. saliva--Lynn

July 9, 2006

lynn--

thank you for the detailed description. since september (the miscarriage), i

have been trying to figure out what is causing my anxiety and depression and

sometimes panic like states. i thought it might have been the upheaval of

hormones postmiscarriage and just had to wait till they evened out. i also

thought i might have a candida problem (grasping at straws). after a few

months, i started feeling good--anxiety completely went away and did so for

about three months. it then came back in may. i don't know if it's because i

wasn't consistent on the anti-candida diet or if it is my thyroid?? during this

time, i inconsistently took my vitamins because the candida doctor said not to

take B vitamins because of their yeast content. i then took high doses of B

complex for 2 weeks and my B12 level shot up. i'm hoping my ferritin will go up

now with regular iron intake. even though my DHEA is borderline low, i'm not

sure if i should supplement because i read in another

post that it could cause the estrogen and testosterone to increase. and since

both of those are on the higher side, i wouldn't want them to increase. do you

know what can be done about estrogen dominance? now these results are from when

i was still early in my cycle so the progesterone is supposed to be lower at

that time anyway right? it's probably better to test that later in the cycle to

see if it climbs? how do you supplement with iodine? just use iodized sea

salt? or the amount in vitamins is enough?

thanks--palma

Lynn McGaha wrote:

ok, so if my T3 is high in the saliva sample, that means i have too

much of

it in my tissues but since it shows up low in the blood, that means enough

wasn't getting into the tissues? but how do you correct that? it seems

like it would be hard to treat because you don't know what the T3 is doing

day to day.

palma

====================================================================

When you take Armour, it first goes into the bloodstream. The T4 in Armour

must be converted to T3 in order to be taken up by the cells. Most of this

conversion takes place in the liver, although there is also some conversion

in peripheral tissues. T3 must then be taken up by the thyroid hormone

receptors located on cell membranes, and is then used by the mitochondria in

the cells to produce energy. If there are too few hormone receptors, or

there are genetic defects with the receptors, or iron levels are too low, or

cortisol levels are too low, or an imbalance of sex hormones, etc., T3 will

not get taken up by the thyroid hormone receptors and will not get used at

the cellular level.

When T3 levels are high in blood serum samples, it may mean that the T3 is

building up in the blood because it's not getting taken into the cells, for

the reasons listed above, and the person is still hypo. It could also mean

that a person is hyper, but symptoms and temps should help distinguish the

two situations.

Having a high T3 on a saliva sample may mean that the levels in the tissues

are too high. But maybe not. Some researchers do not believe thyroid

hormones can be accurately measured in saliva, because of the nature of

thyroid hormones as compared to sex hormones. That's why symptoms and temps

must be considered along with lab tests. Every lab test for thyroid has a

limitation. Blood tests for thyroid hormone may be more accurate at

measuring the hormones, but it's not as useful to know what's in the blood.

Just like TSH can be measured very accurately in blood, but many of us on

this board think knowing the TSH level is only useful when it's high. Low

levels can be quite misleading.

Your progesterone looks to be near bottom of range, and estrogen near top of

range. You could have estrogen dominance, which impacts thyroid. You had a

miscarriage, which could throw your hormones into a tailspin. Your B12

jumped way up in 6-16-06. Did you start supplementing between March and

June? Your ferritin at 23 is still way low. Estrogen dominance and low

ferritin can cause functional hypothyroidism.

Your results are confusing. For now, I would work at getting your ferritin

up to 70 and balancing out your estrogen and progesterone. With your DHEA

borderline normal, you may want to supplement with DHEA. Get that stuff

fixed, and keep checking your temperatures to see where they're headed.

Iodine is something else you might benefit from. I would suggest you check

out the benefits of iodine supplementation - we've had a lot of discussion

about that on this group, and there is also an Iodine yahoo group with great

resources in their files.

Lynn

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July 9, 2006

Palma? Have you been graphing your temps? That's going to be the MOST

accurate way to determine your thyroid status--and it gives a preatty

good clue on the adrenals, too! It sounds to me like you have hashi's

kicking in and out .... and the way to make it stop is to take Armour.

Deborah

palma joshi wrote:

> since september (the miscarriage), i have been trying to figure out

> what is causing my anxiety and depression and sometimes panic like

> states. i thought it might have been the upheaval of hormones

> postmiscarriage and just had to wait till they evened out. i also

> thought i might have a candida problem (grasping at straws). after a

> few months, i started feeling good--anxiety completely went away and

> did so for about three months. it then came back in may. i don't know

> if it's because i wasn't consistent on the anti-candida diet or if it

> is my thyroid??

>

July 9, 2006

> thank you for the detailed description.

You're welcome. Sometimes it helps to think about the underlying mechanisms

when trying to figure out conflicting results.

> since september (the miscarriage), i have been trying to figure out what

is causing my anxiety and depression and sometimes panic like states. i

thought it might have been the upheaval of hormones postmiscarriage and just

had to wait till they evened out.

Unbalanced sex hormones can cause anxiety, depression, and panic-like

states. I've know recently menopausal women who were really on edge until

they got supplemental estrogen. You probably have the opposite problem, but

a multitude of hormones can play havoc with our psyche.

Do you have any idea why you miscarried? Perhaps you had an underlying

hormone imbalance that resulted in your miscarriage.

>i also thought i might have a candida problem (grasping at straws). after

a few months, i started feeling good--anxiety completely went away and did

so for about three months. it then came back in may. i don't know if it's

because i wasn't consistent on the anti-candida diet or if it is my

thyroid??

So were you on an anti-candida diet/program while you were feeling well

during this time, and felt worse only when you were less consistent with it?

I think people can get anxiety, depression, and panic from candida, and

getting relief from those symptoms does point to the possibility of candida

as being a problem for you. I don't think it is your thyroid. Your test

results aren't that aberrant. Also, the candida might be responsible for

your continuing low ferritin if you are taking supplemental iron. Parasites

thrive on iron, and sometimes the body maintains low iron levels as a

defense mechanism against the parasite. I would encourage you to go back on

a strict anti-candida program and see if it helps alleviate your anxiety.

>i inconsistently took my vitamins because the candida doctor said not to

take B vitamins because of their yeast content.

I'm not sure that dead yeast, which is what would be in the vitamins,

fosters candida. At least I read one article that said that was hogwash.

Maybe some of the better manufacturers of vitamins make it differently.

I don't think vitamins are as important for fighting candida as are dietary

changes.

> i then took high doses of B complex for 2 weeks and my B12 level shot up.

i'm hoping my ferritin will go up now with regular iron intake. even though

my DHEA is borderline low, i'm not sure if i should supplement because i

read in another

post that it could cause the estrogen and testosterone to increase. and

since both of those are on the higher side, i wouldn't want them to

increase..

I know posted that it won't cause estrogen and testosterone to

increase unless your DHEA level is high. You could also take 7-keto DHEA,

which supposedly doesn't have that happen. DHEA is tied in with your

cortisol production, so taking it would ease the burden on your adrenals.

> do you know what can be done about estrogen dominance?

You can use a bio-identical topical progesterone cream, available OTC or

from a compounding pharmacist with a Rx.

> now these results are from when i was still early in my cycle so the

progesterone is supposed to be lower at that time anyway right? it's

probably better to test that later in the cycle to see if it climbs?

Right, it's lower early in the cycle. Someone just posted recently on the

main NTH group about the best testing being on days 19-21 and 1-3 of the

cycle. I think it was progesterone they were testing, but I'm not sure if

it was saliva or blood. You might be able to search and find that

discussion so you can understand when to test. It probably would be good to

get it tested at the optimal time before you start using progesterone. If

you don't need it, best not to use it.

Of course hypothyroidism can also contribute to estrogen dominance. Taking

your temps will really help you to sort out if you are at all hypo now.

Follow the procedure at http://www.drrind.com/tempgraph.asp#intro.

>how do you supplement with iodine? just use iodized sea salt? or the

amount in vitamins is enough? thanks--palma

Iodine deficiency can cause functional hypothyroidism, but iodine-deficient

people will often feel worse when taking thyroid. Course people often do so

many things wrong when they start to take thyroid, usually just following

doctor's orders, that without knowing the details it's hard to know exactly

what the problem is. But a number of conditions cause functional

hypothyroidism and taking thyroid isn't necessarily helpful in all cases.

There is some iodine in unprocessed sea salt, but not enough. Any salt that

is iodized has been processed and should be avoided because it's toxic.

Kelp is a good source, but the amount of iodine/iodide can be highly

variable. Iodoral (tablet of 12.5 mg of iodine/iodide) and Lugol's solution

(a liquid form of Iodoral) are what is recommended for iodine deficiency,

because the iodine/iodide amounts are known.

The RDA for iodine is less than 150 mcg. The Japanese, just about the

healthiest population in the developed world, consume about 13 mg. of

iodine/iodine a day. Chlorine, fluorine, and bromine deplete the body's

iodine and contribute to our lack of iodine from our diets. Iodine also

helps sanitize the body. Might help you with candida too.

This is a hugh topic in itself, so I strongly recommend you go to

www.iodine4health.com and look at the resources there.

Lynn

July 9, 2006

Deborah brings up a good point about you might have Hashi's kicking in and

out. Your antithyroglobulin antibodies of 10/13/05 was <20, and the

reference range is <20. You might want to have the Antithyroglobulin

antibodies test repeated.

Lynn

Re: blood vs. saliva--Lynn

> Palma? Have you been graphing your temps? That's going to be the MOST

> accurate way to determine your thyroid status--and it gives a preatty

> good clue on the adrenals, too! It sounds to me like you have hashi's

> kicking in and out .... and the way to make it stop is to take Armour.

>

> Deborah

>

> palma joshi wrote:

>

> > since september (the miscarriage), i have been trying to figure out

> > what is causing my anxiety and depression and sometimes panic like

> > states. i thought it might have been the upheaval of hormones

> > postmiscarriage and just had to wait till they evened out. i also

> > thought i might have a candida problem (grasping at straws). after a

> > few months, i started feeling good--anxiety completely went away and

> > did so for about three months. it then came back in may. i don't know

> > if it's because i wasn't consistent on the anti-candida diet or if it

> > is my thyroid??

> >

>

July 14, 2006

thanks lynn--

again, i'm not sure if i've already replied to this, it's hard for me to keep

track. i've gotten alot of different takes on my situation. i wasn't tested

after the miscarriage. testing that was done months before i got pregnant

showed normal levels of the sex hormones. my gyno. did say that she would test

the progesterone level the next time i get pregnant. i started thinking that it

may have been thyroid related and that's why i had started thyroid meds 2 weeks

after the miscarriage. 3 weeks after that is when the panic attacks started. i

only took the meds for 9 days. i then thought i didn't have thyroid issues and

probably went hyper. but even after all the meds were out of my system, i

still had symptoms. so i then thought it was post partum depression and

anxiety; and it did go away after a few months so i thought that was it for

sure. but now it's back. again, though, i'm doing better?!?! so i don't know

what's going on. i'll be ok for a few months

and then slide back and then come right back up. i'm not sure if the candida

diet helped. i did feel better the first time around but was never strict.

then i tried the diet and medication (for yeast) again recently and actually

felt worse in terms of panic. so then i started eating the way i always do

(much more carbs) and started feeling better. go figure!! so i don't know.

i'm thinking of taking my blood and saliva results to my doctor with some of the

suggestions i've gotten from you and others and see what he says.