Re: dissociation problem...heeelp!

January 23, 2006

Flea, be sure that you tell him, reassure him, that 'curious' kids are the

BEST KIND. He is ok...just the way he is. Carol C.

In a message dated 1/23/2006 10:21:54 PM Eastern Standard Time,

fleabitten_ko@... writes:

Hi,all,

I'm having a KO-related problem, but it requires some explanation, please

bear with me! ;-)

Some of you might remember, my 11-year-old son has severe ADHD. He is on

meds, but lately the meds have not been working like they used to. As kids

grow, it's my understanding that sometimes the dose or the med itself has to

be changed. His doc is aware of this, and we are trying to resolve this.

It's hit and miss, and the process can take months.

When he's properly medicated, he's this lovely, funny, interesting,

enjoyable, appreciative, kind, caring, creative, energetic, friendly, outgoing

person. He's got friends, he's got hobbies--he's just a happy " normal " kid.

When he's NOT properly medicated, he has this horrible Jekyll and Hyde

behavior--happy (or his regular " normal " self) one minute, raging the next. He

doesn't seem to care about consequences when he's not medicated--he'll lie,

try to get out of chores, blame everyone else for his problems, yell at

everyone with no provocation (except interestingly, his baby sister, who

somehow

he is always good to, no matter how " crazed " he is)-- he'll also throw

things, growl like an animal, you name it. Needless to say, he's not able to

concentrate on (or complete) his schoolwork or normal tasks. He's agitated.

It's like he can't even hear you in that state, much less think enough to

change his behavior.

Jekyll and Hyde!

I swear, you wouldn't believe it's the same child. And a lot of the ADHD

characteristics are similar to BPD--the impulsivity, the lying, the raging, th

e black-and-white thinking, the blaming of everyone else for problems that

he's created. It's relly horrible for all of us (including him) to live with.

Now the doc has told me, and I've read books that tell me yes, having a kid

with severe ADHD is like having any other " special needs child " ... this is

a very " real " disorder--even if some people just think he must be a brat or

poorly disciplined--and trying to reason with him while he's not properly

medicated is like trying to reason with an unmedicated bipolar person or an

unmedicated schizophrenic.

So, I know I just have to hang in there till the medicine problem gets

resolved. MEANWHILE here's my problem.

I find that the older he gets, the more...abusive....it " feels " to me, when

he is doing his bad ADHD behaviors. He's bigger, he's louder, and the rage

just triggers me--esp cause the ADHD behaviors can be very similar to BPD

behaviors..

And so I find that I am doing what I did as a child in an abusive situation

with nada or stepfada, which is to " go numb " and basically tune out

everything around me and virtually stop talking or showing any emotion or

doing

much of anything! I just shut down.

When this happens to me, I'm aware of it, but no matter how hard I try to

" snap out of it " I can't do it! It's NOT very adaptive, cuz I still have

these kids to take care of all day long, and a house to take care of, and

errands to run, and meals to prepare, and bills to pay, and calls to return,

and

work to do (I work at night) etc. It lasts for a good 24 hours, give or take.

I'm virtually a zombie, doing nothing, ignoring everyone and everything

around me.

I literally have a very hard time even attending to anyone talking to

me--my son will say something and I just don't process it, and I have to ask

him

to repeat himself, maybe even twice. Even with great effort to the contrary,

I'm really tuned out to everything.

For some reason, this response wasn't a problem when he was

younger--possibly because in young kids, ADHD behaviors are not all that

different from a

kid-having-a-really-bad-day (except... he had that every day, ugh). But now

if it's coming out while he's older, it seems so inappropriate for his age

and " feels " abusive, even though I know when he is properly medicated he will

not do this--that's not the person he is.

Moreover, he can switch Jekyll and Hyde several times a day. So, say he has

been horrid Mr Hyde in the morning. As soon as he gets control of himself,

he's really sorry. When I'm in this zombie state, all I want is for him to

get away from me (not just him, but anyone). He wants to hug and I don't want

anyone touching me when I'm like this and am unable to hide that fact

completely.

And, we're a very " huggy " family, so it's very hard for him, if I respond

with a minimal hug. The other day he even said to me, " When you're like this,

I almost feel like you dont love me or something. " That made me so sad.

I've tried to explain to him--but he's just 11 years old!-- " Son, I do love you

and I know you're sorry for what you did. Sometimes your behavior upsets me

so badly that it takes me a whole day to get over it. It's an unusual thing,

and it's my problem, and it doesn't mean I don't love you. Tomorrow I'll

feel better again. " <<<And you better believe, to make a huge speech like

that while I'm zombified takes a lot of effort.

I mean, it's the best version of the truth that I can come up with, for an

11-year-old, but I can't say I think it makes a whole lot of sense to him.

Plus, when I'm zombified, it's a flat (probably unconvincing) zombie

voice--not a " mom voice " --so it probably isn't very comforting to him, you

know?

QUESTION: Anyone had an dissociation problem affect their parenting or

other relationshps? Are there any ways to " snap out of it " ? Are there any meds

that might work on me? (I'm not big on taking meds, but this is hopefully a

short-term problem till he gets HIS meds straightened out, and in the

meantime, this zombie response is disabling.) Any good ideas on what worked,

in

terms of what to tell the kids? Once he's medicated again, and every day isn't

a living h*** around here, I think the problem will resolve itself. In the

meantime, I'm struggling with this out-of-control child, and struggling with

guilt over my less-than-ideal response.

Thanks for reading a long post.

Flea

January 23, 2006

Flea, I never thought of that happening as a parent. I do not have kids but

I've had that

happen with my husband before. It's never lasted that long for me, but I know

the feeling:

it's like going into a black hole where you can't really take in input from

outside like

before. I can't focus on what anyone is saying. Most of the time, I think to

myself, " there's

no reason to be this upset, this doesn't make any sense, this is probably a

total

misunderstanding. . . " but I cannot talk myself out of it. Sometimes I feel

physically

incapacitated: just have to lie down until it goes away. I remember doing this

as a small

child, just curling up in a closet and waiting it all out.

Are you going to therapy? I talked to my therapist about this and he told me

it's a good

idea to try to figure out what your thoughts are right before that happens.

THEN--instead

of trying to talk myself out of it when I was already upset, I would figure out

what I needed

to say to myself to counter these thoughts--they were mainly irrational either

overly

fearfull(afraid my husband was going to try to hurt me or was hurting me on

purpose) or

overly self-critical (afraid that my husband's percieved mistreatment of me was

because

I'm just no good etc.). I figured out some good affirmations to counter the

destructive

thinking patterns that came up the most and then said them to myself or wrote

them to

myself every day--not waiting until things " hit the fan. " I used to have these

episodes

every 3-4 weeks and now I can't even remember the last time--it's been months.

Also, I sat my husband down and explained to him that I thought I had a problem,

that I

was doing everything I could to resolve it. I explained to him that I know it's

not his fault,

that he didn't mean to upset me that when I'm like that I know there's something

wrong, I

want to snap out of it, but I can't just snap out just because I want to.

Maybe understanding how it works would be helpful for your son--and knowing that

you're doing everything you can to help the situation might help too.

Also, just wondering. If the behavior seems " abusive, " it might be a good idea

to make

sure that you really feel safe. If he's screaming at you and invading your

space while

doing it, that could feel quite threatening--and it's something you should try

to protect

yourself from. You could try to set some boundaries with him on that. It might

actually

be worth working with a therapist to put those boundaries in place. I don't

have kids but

I'm a high school teacher and I've seen some parents make amazing progress with

thier

kids through drugs AND help to get boundaries in place.

Just some thoughts. I hope they help!

Trish

>

> Hi,all,

>

> I'm having a KO-related problem, but it requires some explanation, please

bear with

me! ;-)

>

> Some of you might remember, my 11-year-old son has severe ADHD. He is on

meds,

but lately the meds have not been working like they used to. As kids grow, it's

my

understanding that sometimes the dose or the med itself has to be changed. His

doc is

aware of this, and we are trying to resolve this. It's hit and miss, and the

process can take

months.

>

> When he's properly medicated, he's this lovely, funny, interesting,

enjoyable,

appreciative, kind, caring, creative, energetic, friendly, outgoing person.

He's got friends,

he's got hobbies--he's just a happy " normal " kid.

>

> When he's NOT properly medicated, he has this horrible Jekyll and Hyde

behavior--

happy (or his regular " normal " self) one minute, raging the next. He doesn't

seem to care

about consequences when he's not medicated--he'll lie, try to get out of

chores, blame

everyone else for his problems, yell at everyone with no provocation (except

interestingly, his baby sister, who somehow he is always good to, no matter how

" crazed "

he is)-- he'll also throw things, growl like an animal, you name it. Needless

to say, he's

not able to concentrate on (or complete) his schoolwork or normal tasks. He's

agitated.

It's like he can't even hear you in that state, much less think enough to

change his

behavior.

>

> Jekyll and Hyde!

>

> I swear, you wouldn't believe it's the same child. And a lot of the ADHD

characteristics

are similar to BPD--the impulsivity, the lying, the raging, the black-and-white

thinking,

the blaming of everyone else for problems that he's created. It's relly

horrible for all of us

(including him) to live with.

>

> Now the doc has told me, and I've read books that tell me yes, having a kid

with

severe ADHD is like having any other " special needs child " ... this is a very

" real " disorder--

even if some people just think he must be a brat or poorly disciplined--and

trying to

reason with him while he's not properly medicated is like trying to reason with

an

unmedicated bipolar person or an unmedicated schizophrenic.

>

> So, I know I just have to hang in there till the medicine problem gets

resolved.

MEANWHILE here's my problem.

>

> I find that the older he gets, the more...abusive....it " feels " to me, when

he is doing his

bad ADHD behaviors. He's bigger, he's louder, and the rage just triggers

me--esp cause

the ADHD behaviors can be very similar to BPD behaviors..

>

> And so I find that I am doing what I did as a child in an abusive situation

with nada or

stepfada, which is to " go numb " and basically tune out everything around me and

virtually

stop talking or showing any emotion or doing much of anything! I just shut

down.

>

> When this happens to me, I'm aware of it, but no matter how hard I try to

" snap out of

it " I can't do it! It's NOT very adaptive, cuz I still have these kids to take

care of all day

long, and a house to take care of, and errands to run, and meals to prepare,

and bills to

pay, and calls to return, and work to do (I work at night) etc. It lasts for a

good 24 hours,

give or take. I'm virtually a zombie, doing nothing, ignoring everyone and

everything

around me.

>

> I literally have a very hard time even attending to anyone talking to

me--my son will

say something and I just don't process it, and I have to ask him to repeat

himself, maybe

even twice. Even with great effort to the contrary, I'm really tuned out to

everything.

>

> For some reason, this response wasn't a problem when he was

younger--possibly

because in young kids, ADHD behaviors are not all that different from a

kid-having-a-

really-bad-day (except... he had that every day, ugh). But now if it's coming

out while he's

older, it seems so inappropriate for his age and " feels " abusive, even though I

know when

he is properly medicated he will not do this--that's not the person he is.

>

> Moreover, he can switch Jekyll and Hyde several times a day. So, say he has

been

horrid Mr Hyde in the morning. As soon as he gets control of himself, he's

really sorry.

When I'm in this zombie state, all I want is for him to get away from me (not

just him, but

anyone). He wants to hug and I don't want anyone touching me when I'm like this

and am

unable to hide that fact completely.

>

> And, we're a very " huggy " family, so it's very hard for him, if I respond

with a minimal

hug. The other day he even said to me, " When you're like this, I almost feel

like you dont

love me or something. " That made me so sad. I've tried to explain to him--but

he's just

11 years old!-- " Son, I do love you and I know you're sorry for what you did.

Sometimes

your behavior upsets me so badly that it takes me a whole day to get over it.

It's an

unusual thing, and it's my problem, and it doesn't mean I don't love you.

Tomorrow I'll

feel better again. " <<<And you better believe, to make a huge speech like that

while I'm

zombified takes a lot of effort.

>

> I mean, it's the best version of the truth that I can come up with, for an

11-year-old,

but I can't say I think it makes a whole lot of sense to him. Plus, when I'm

zombified, it's a

flat (probably unconvincing) zombie voice--not a " mom voice " --so it probably

isn't very

comforting to him, you know?

>

> QUESTION: Anyone had an dissociation problem affect their parenting or

other

relationshps? Are there any ways to " snap out of it " ? Are there any meds that

might work

on me? (I'm not big on taking meds, but this is hopefully a short-term problem

till he gets

HIS meds straightened out, and in the meantime, this zombie response is

disabling.) Any

good ideas on what worked, in terms of what to tell the kids? Once he's

medicated again,

and every day isn't a living h*** around here, I think the problem will resolve

itself. In the

meantime, I'm struggling with this out-of-control child, and struggling with

guilt over my

less-than-ideal response.

>

> Thanks for reading a long post.

> Flea

>

> ---------------------------------

> Yahoo! Photos

> Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays,

whatever.

>

January 23, 2006

Trish wrote:

just curling up in a closet and waiting it all out.

________________________________

So did I... Hiding seems to be common among KOs, and other kids whose

family dynamics are completely bonkers.

I liked hidng under my bedroom table, in the dark. (Which I was

constantly critcised for of course, but then I was critcised for not

taking criticism well enough.)

> just curling up in a closet and waiting it all out.

Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com

January 24, 2006

Hi Flea,

I agree with Trish. Also, I'd be challenged, too, in your situation.

When I'm feeling overwhelmed, especially emotionally, and no matter how

I'm expressing it -- too much / not enough communication, inappropriate

expressions / behaviors -- I know it's very important, whatever the

feelings are, to get them out as soon and as safely as possible,

preferably with another trusted adult.

One Non-BP Recovering Man

--- tlblack2006 wrote:

> Flea, I never thought of that happening as a parent. I do not have kids

> but I've had that

> happen with my husband before. It's never lasted that long for me, but

> I know the feeling:

> it's like going into a black hole where you can't really take in input

> from outside like

> before. I can't focus on what anyone is saying. Most of the time, I

> think to myself, " there's

> no reason to be this upset, this doesn't make any sense, this is

> probably a total

> misunderstanding. . . " but I cannot talk myself out of it. Sometimes I

> feel physically

> incapacitated: just have to lie down until it goes away. I remember

> doing this as a small

> child, just curling up in a closet and waiting it all out.

>

> Are you going to therapy? I talked to my therapist about this and he

> told me it's a good

> idea to try to figure out what your thoughts are right before that

> happens. THEN--instead

> of trying to talk myself out of it when I was already upset, I would

> figure out what I needed

> to say to myself to counter these thoughts--they were mainly irrational

> either overly

> fearfull(afraid my husband was going to try to hurt me or was hurting me

> on purpose) or

> overly self-critical (afraid that my husband's percieved mistreatment of

> me was because

> I'm just no good etc.). I figured out some good affirmations to counter

> the destructive

> thinking patterns that came up the most and then said them to myself or

> wrote them to

> myself every day--not waiting until things " hit the fan. " I used to

> have these episodes

> every 3-4 weeks and now I can't even remember the last time--it's been

> months.

>

> Also, I sat my husband down and explained to him that I thought I had a

> problem, that I

> was doing everything I could to resolve it. I explained to him that I

> know it's not his fault,

> that he didn't mean to upset me that when I'm like that I know there's

> something wrong, I

> want to snap out of it, but I can't just snap out just because I want

> to.

>

> Maybe understanding how it works would be helpful for your son--and

> knowing that

> you're doing everything you can to help the situation might help too.

>

> Also, just wondering. If the behavior seems " abusive, " it might be a

> good idea to make

> sure that you really feel safe. If he's screaming at you and invading

> your space while

> doing it, that could feel quite threatening--and it's something you

> should try to protect

> yourself from. You could try to set some boundaries with him on that.

> It might actually

> be worth working with a therapist to put those boundaries in place. I

> don't have kids but

> I'm a high school teacher and I've seen some parents make amazing

> progress with thier

> kids through drugs AND help to get boundaries in place.

>

> Just some thoughts. I hope they help!

>

> Trish

>

> >

> > Hi,all,

> >

> > I'm having a KO-related problem, but it requires some explanation,

> please bear with

> me! ;-)

> >

> > Some of you might remember, my 11-year-old son has severe ADHD. He

> is on meds,

> but lately the meds have not been working like they used to. As kids

> grow, it's my

> understanding that sometimes the dose or the med itself has to be

> changed. His doc is

> aware of this, and we are trying to resolve this. It's hit and miss,

> and the process can take

> months.

> >

> > When he's properly medicated, he's this lovely, funny, interesting,

> enjoyable,

> appreciative, kind, caring, creative, energetic, friendly, outgoing

> person. He's got friends,

> he's got hobbies--he's just a happy " normal " kid.

> >

> > When he's NOT properly medicated, he has this horrible Jekyll and

> Hyde behavior--

> happy (or his regular " normal " self) one minute, raging the next. He

> doesn't seem to care

> about consequences when he's not medicated--he'll lie, try to get out

> of chores, blame

> everyone else for his problems, yell at everyone with no provocation

> (except

> interestingly, his baby sister, who somehow he is always good to, no

> matter how " crazed "

> he is)-- he'll also throw things, growl like an animal, you name it.

> Needless to say, he's

> not able to concentrate on (or complete) his schoolwork or normal

> tasks. He's agitated.

> It's like he can't even hear you in that state, much less think enough

> to change his

> behavior.

> >

> > Jekyll and Hyde!

> >

> > I swear, you wouldn't believe it's the same child. And a lot of the

> ADHD characteristics

> are similar to BPD--the impulsivity, the lying, the raging, the

> black-and-white thinking,

> the blaming of everyone else for problems that he's created. It's relly

> horrible for all of us

> (including him) to live with.

> >

> > Now the doc has told me, and I've read books that tell me yes,

> having a kid with

> severe ADHD is like having any other " special needs child " ... this is a

> very " real " disorder--

> even if some people just think he must be a brat or poorly

> disciplined--and trying to

> reason with him while he's not properly medicated is like trying to

> reason with an

> unmedicated bipolar person or an unmedicated schizophrenic.

> >

> > So, I know I just have to hang in there till the medicine problem

> gets resolved.

> MEANWHILE here's my problem.

> >

> > I find that the older he gets, the more...abusive....it " feels " to

> me, when he is doing his

> bad ADHD behaviors. He's bigger, he's louder, and the rage just

> triggers me--esp cause

> the ADHD behaviors can be very similar to BPD behaviors..

> >

> > And so I find that I am doing what I did as a child in an abusive

> situation with nada or

> stepfada, which is to " go numb " and basically tune out everything

> around me and virtually

> stop talking or showing any emotion or doing much of anything! I just

> shut down.

> >

> > When this happens to me, I'm aware of it, but no matter how hard I

> try to " snap out of

> it " I can't do it! It's NOT very adaptive, cuz I still have these kids

> to take care of all day

> long, and a house to take care of, and errands to run, and meals to

> prepare, and bills to

> pay, and calls to return, and work to do (I work at night) etc. It

> lasts for a good 24 hours,

> give or take. I'm virtually a zombie, doing nothing, ignoring everyone

> and everything

> around me.

> >

> > I literally have a very hard time even attending to anyone talking

> to me--my son will

> say something and I just don't process it, and I have to ask him to

> repeat himself, maybe

> even twice. Even with great effort to the contrary, I'm really tuned

> out to everything.

> >

> > For some reason, this response wasn't a problem when he was

> younger--possibly

> because in young kids, ADHD behaviors are not all that different from a

> kid-having-a-

> really-bad-day (except... he had that every day, ugh). But now if it's

> coming out while he's

> older, it seems so inappropriate for his age and " feels " abusive, even

> though I know when

> he is properly medicated he will not do this--that's not the person he

> is.

> >

> > Moreover, he can switch Jekyll and Hyde several times a day. So, say

> he has been

> horrid Mr Hyde in the morning. As soon as he gets control of himself,

> he's really sorry.

> When I'm in this zombie state, all I want is for him to get away from

> me (not just him, but

> anyone). He wants to hug and I don't want anyone touching me when I'm

> like this and am

> unable to hide that fact completely.

> >

> > And, we're a very " huggy " family, so it's very hard for him, if I

> respond with a minimal

> hug. The other day he even said to me, " When you're like this, I almost

> feel like you dont

> love me or something. " That made me so sad. I've tried to explain to

> him--but he's just

> 11 years old!-- " Son, I do love you and I know you're sorry for what you

> did. Sometimes

> your behavior upsets me so badly that it takes me a whole day to get

> over it. It's an

> unusual thing, and it's my problem, and it doesn't mean I don't love

> you. Tomorrow I'll

> feel better again. " <<<And you better believe, to make a huge speech

> like that while I'm

> zombified takes a lot of effort.

> >

> > I mean, it's the best version of the truth that I can come up with,

> for an 11-year-old,

> but I can't say I think it makes a whole lot of sense to him. Plus,

> when I'm zombified, it's a

> flat (probably unconvincing) zombie voice--not a " mom voice " --so it

> probably isn't very

> comforting to him, you know?

> >

> > QUESTION: Anyone had an dissociation problem affect their parenting

> or other

> relationshps? Are there any ways to " snap out of it " ? Are there any

> meds that might work

> on me? (I'm not big on taking meds, but this is hopefully a short-term

> problem till he gets

> HIS meds straightened out, and in the meantime, this zombie response is

> disabling.) Any

> good ideas on what worked, in terms of what to tell the kids? Once he's

> medicated again,

> and every day isn't a living h*** around here, I think the problem will

> resolve itself. In the

> meantime, I'm struggling with this out-of-control child, and struggling

> with guilt over my

> less-than-ideal response.

> >

> > Thanks for reading a long post.

> > Flea

> >

> > ---------------------------------

> > Yahoo! Photos

> > Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events,

> holidays, whatever.

> >

January 24, 2006

Hi Flea,

Hmm....believe it or not, some of this stuff sounds all too familiar. My

husband is ADHD, and is not currently on meds(not really his choice....we just

don't have health insurance on ourselves right now) He went to a special school

for 6 years to help him learn techniques to control his ADHD, and they basically

" reprogrammed " him.

He does have Jekyll and Hyde moments. And some of his behaviors in the Mr.

Hyde stage resemble some BPD behaviors....guilt trips, irritability, mood

swings, agitation, and rages. he does not get violent, but I can always tell

when he is so frustrated that he cannot deal. In his Dr. Jekyll phase, he is a

very sweet, tender, caring person. And he always feels terribly when he has

yelled at our daughter unprovoked or gets mad at me over something petty. In the

Mr. Hyde phase, I find myself shutting down, too. I clam up, I don't talk, I

mope, and I find myself walking on eggshells all over again. I know that he

isn't my nada or stepfada. I know he wouldn't completely lose it and do

something horrible. But it is SO hard to get rid of behaviors that have been

learned from the time you're a toddler in order to cope with other people's

rages. The only thing that has worked for me so far in regards to dealing with

his bad days is being very open, and forcing myself to talk to him. Not

yell, not scream, but talk.

As far as medication goes, I am not sure what is out there that can be of

benefit. I do know that there have been some studies done with drugs such as

Paxil that have been shown to help people with not only depression, but social

anxiety and post traumatic stress(which I think is closest to what we KO's go

through!)

I wish you luck. ADHD is very very hard to cope with.

Flea Bitten wrote:

Hi,all,

I'm having a KO-related problem, but it requires some explanation, please bear

with me! ;-)

Some of you might remember, my 11-year-old son has severe ADHD. He is on

meds, but lately the meds have not been working like they used to. As kids

grow, it's my understanding that sometimes the dose or the med itself has to

be changed. His doc is aware of this, and we are trying to resolve this. It's

hit and miss, and the process can take months.

When he's properly medicated, he's this lovely, funny, interesting,

enjoyable, appreciative, kind, caring, creative, energetic, friendly, outgoing

person. He's got friends, he's got hobbies--he's just a happy " normal " kid.

When he's NOT properly medicated, he has this horrible Jekyll and Hyde

behavior--happy (or his regular " normal " self) one minute, raging the next. He

doesn't seem to care about consequences when he's not medicated--he'll lie, try

to get out of chores, blame everyone else for his problems, yell at everyone

with no provocation (except interestingly, his baby sister, who somehow he is

always good to, no matter how " crazed " he is)-- he'll also throw things, growl

like an animal, you name it. Needless to say, he's not able to concentrate on

(or complete) his schoolwork or normal tasks. He's agitated. It's like he can't

even hear you in that state, much less think enough to change his behavior.

Jekyll and Hyde!

I swear, you wouldn't believe it's the same child. And a lot of the ADHD

characteristics are similar to BPD--the impulsivity, the lying, the raging, the

black-and-white thinking, the blaming of everyone else for problems that he's

created. It's relly horrible for all of us (including him) to live with.

Now the doc has told me, and I've read books that tell me yes, having a kid

with severe ADHD is like having any other " special needs child " ... this is a

very " real " disorder--even if some people just think he must be a brat or

poorly disciplined--and trying to reason with him while he's not properly

medicated is like trying to reason with an unmedicated bipolar person or an

unmedicated schizophrenic.

So, I know I just have to hang in there till the medicine problem gets

resolved. MEANWHILE here's my problem.

I find that the older he gets, the more...abusive....it " feels " to me, when

he is doing his bad ADHD behaviors. He's bigger, he's louder, and the rage just

triggers me--esp cause the ADHD behaviors can be very similar to BPD

behaviors..

And so I find that I am doing what I did as a child in an abusive situation

with nada or stepfada, which is to " go numb " and basically tune out everything

around me and virtually stop talking or showing any emotion or doing much of

anything! I just shut down.

When this happens to me, I'm aware of it, but no matter how hard I try to

" snap out of it " I can't do it! It's NOT very adaptive, cuz I still have these

kids to take care of all day long, and a house to take care of, and errands to

run, and meals to prepare, and bills to pay, and calls to return, and work to

do (I work at night) etc. It lasts for a good 24 hours, give or take. I'm

virtually a zombie, doing nothing, ignoring everyone and everything around me.

I literally have a very hard time even attending to anyone talking to me--my

son will say something and I just don't process it, and I have to ask him to

repeat himself, maybe even twice. Even with great effort to the contrary, I'm

really tuned out to everything.

For some reason, this response wasn't a problem when he was younger--possibly

because in young kids, ADHD behaviors are not all that different from a

kid-having-a-really-bad-day (except... he had that every day, ugh). But now if

it's coming out while he's older, it seems so inappropriate for his age and

" feels " abusive, even though I know when he is properly medicated he will not

do this--that's not the person he is.

Moreover, he can switch Jekyll and Hyde several times a day. So, say he has

been horrid Mr Hyde in the morning. As soon as he gets control of himself, he's

really sorry. When I'm in this zombie state, all I want is for him to get away

from me (not just him, but anyone). He wants to hug and I don't want anyone

touching me when I'm like this and am unable to hide that fact completely.

And, we're a very " huggy " family, so it's very hard for him, if I respond

with a minimal hug. The other day he even said to me, " When you're like this, I

almost feel like you dont love me or something. " That made me so sad. I've

tried to explain to him--but he's just 11 years old!-- " Son, I do love you and I

know you're sorry for what you did. Sometimes your behavior upsets me so badly

that it takes me a whole day to get over it. It's an unusual thing, and it's my

problem, and it doesn't mean I don't love you. Tomorrow I'll feel better

again. " <<<And you better believe, to make a huge speech like that while I'm

zombified takes a lot of effort.

I mean, it's the best version of the truth that I can come up with, for an

11-year-old, but I can't say I think it makes a whole lot of sense to him.

Plus, when I'm zombified, it's a flat (probably unconvincing) zombie voice--not

a " mom voice " --so it probably isn't very comforting to him, you know?

QUESTION: Anyone had an dissociation problem affect their parenting or other

relationshps? Are there any ways to " snap out of it " ? Are there any meds that

might work on me? (I'm not big on taking meds, but this is hopefully a

short-term problem till he gets HIS meds straightened out, and in the meantime,

this zombie response is disabling.) Any good ideas on what worked, in terms of

what to tell the kids? Once he's medicated again, and every day isn't a living

h*** around here, I think the problem will resolve itself. In the meantime, I'm

struggling with this out-of-control child, and struggling with guilt over my

less-than-ideal response.

Thanks for reading a long post.

Flea

---------------------------------

Yahoo! Photos

Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays,

whatever.

January 24, 2006

Dear Flea,

You can do this; you can beat this. I'm also fighting with

dissociation--often very severe. In fact, trying to prevent and

deal with it has been the main theme of my self-work these past two

years. It still happens, but I've made progress. I'll tell you

what I can, and I hope some of it helps.

I believe that the dissociation is a response to the pre-verbal

parts of you feeling overwhelmed. Like an animal playing dead when

absolutely no other option is available. The key to preventing it

must be to do whatever it takes to convince all parts of your psyche

that YOU (the grown up you) are in charge, and you are effectively

keeping them safe.

I am no expert in this arena. I assume that how to do this varies

with varying people and varying circumstances. Like someone said,

one veeery important thing is making sure you feel physically safe.

Your subconscious child may not know the difference between your son

and nada/fada. Have a plan for protecting yourself, just to

convince her. Phone numbers of police in place, relatives to call.

Whatever. See if that works. See if certain foods aggravate the

condition--for me, I have an allergy to wheat that makes the

dissociation ten times worse and more tenacious.

Maybe, see if you can get in touch with kids inside you--most people

have infants, four and twelve year olds---and explain to them,

before you encounter your son, that he is not nada and he won't harm

you. That you are safe. For me, I find that if I 'talk to the

kids' BEFORE an event, I can prevent sadness and dissociation and

other nada-tape type symptoms. It takes constant vigilence, because

you are truly parenting children. It takes constant planning ahead,

surveying what you are in for, and making sure everyone understands

what's going on.

When I am in the middle of a dissociation, I have found that

watching a movie I like will get me out of it. Maybe there's

something you can do--call a friend, watch a show or something--that

can pull you out. Before it gets too severe. And even if you don't

do it, having a PLAN to do it when it happens--a friend or dh you

can call to watch him, just in case, for 30 minutes or so?? The key

is to make everyone understand that your adult mind is competent and

in control, and you WILL keep them safe. And to warn them what they

are in for. Sorry if I'm repeating myself; I'm brainstorming.

Finding and dealing w/the inner children takes time, I'm afraid--

sometimes days, weeks, or even months before you can identify what

they're feeling and have them respond to you. But it is entirely

worth it. I truly believe it's the source of dissociation. For me.

That being said, inner child work might not work for you. You might

be able to look for your cognitive distortions, and address them

with affirmations, with your adult mind. You might be able to use

diet or exercise, or some other sortof fix. There might be a

different way that your particular psyche can be convinced she is

safe. To beat this, you have to find your way, and start taking

that path.

It's hard, Flea. I won't lie to you. I am dissociating a little

even right now, bks I've recently been overwhelmed w/too much

anxiety-causing stuff I 'have' to do. I can't control life, and

stuff is GOING to come up---stuff that triggers me. When it

happens, and I unexpectedly get overwhelmed, and I find myself

dissociating--I just have to roll w/it. I do one of my quick-fixes

if I can. Most importantly, I try not to blame or shame myself--

that just makes the dissociation all the worse, and ups my overall

level of discomfort. Yes, I wanted to say, please don't feel

ashamed, or like you are a bad mother for doing this. The part of

you that's dissociating is trying to be GOOD--she's trying to help

you. If you try to shame her for harming your son, that just keeps

you from being in touch w/her and preventing further dissociations

in the future.

Good luck and keep me posted!!

Charlie

January 24, 2006

Carol, Thanks...yes, I do try to do just that! :-) (His doc told me, that

considering the severity of his problem, he's got a really good self-esteem.) I

know deep-down the good person he is, and so does he. But I think, when he is

feeling so out of control (while we're straightening out the meds) it's

probably natural for him to feel bad about his really extreme behavior and to

worry about whether we still love him, esp when I'm zombie-ing out in

response...

Flea

getevenpersevere@... wrote:

Flea, be sure that you tell him, reassure him, that 'curious' kids are the

BEST KIND. He is ok...just the way he is. Carol C.

In a message dated 1/23/2006 10:21:54 PM Eastern Standard Time,

fleabitten_ko@... writes:

Hi,all,

I'm having a KO-related problem, but it requires some explanation, please

bear with me! ;-)

Some of you might remember, my 11-year-old son has severe ADHD. He is on

meds, but lately the meds have not been working like they used to. As kids

grow, it's my understanding that sometimes the dose or the med itself has to

be changed. His doc is aware of this, and we are trying to resolve this.

It's hit and miss, and the process can take months.

When he's properly medicated, he's this lovely, funny, interesting,

enjoyable, appreciative, kind, caring, creative, energetic, friendly,

outgoing

person. He's got friends, he's got hobbies--he's just a happy " normal " kid.

When he's NOT properly medicated, he has this horrible Jekyll and Hyde

behavior--happy (or his regular " normal " self) one minute, raging the next.

He

doesn't seem to care about consequences when he's not medicated--he'll lie,

try to get out of chores, blame everyone else for his problems, yell at

everyone with no provocation (except interestingly, his baby sister, who

somehow

he is always good to, no matter how " crazed " he is)-- he'll also throw

things, growl like an animal, you name it. Needless to say, he's not able to

concentrate on (or complete) his schoolwork or normal tasks. He's agitated.

It's like he can't even hear you in that state, much less think enough to

change his behavior.

Jekyll and Hyde!

I swear, you wouldn't believe it's the same child. And a lot of the ADHD

characteristics are similar to BPD--the impulsivity, the lying, the raging,

th

e black-and-white thinking, the blaming of everyone else for problems that

he's created. It's relly horrible for all of us (including him) to live

with.

Now the doc has told me, and I've read books that tell me yes, having a kid

with severe ADHD is like having any other " special needs child " ... this is

a very " real " disorder--even if some people just think he must be a brat or

poorly disciplined--and trying to reason with him while he's not properly

medicated is like trying to reason with an unmedicated bipolar person or an

unmedicated schizophrenic.

So, I know I just have to hang in there till the medicine problem gets

resolved. MEANWHILE here's my problem.

I find that the older he gets, the more...abusive....it " feels " to me, when

he is doing his bad ADHD behaviors. He's bigger, he's louder, and the rage

just triggers me--esp cause the ADHD behaviors can be very similar to BPD

behaviors..

And so I find that I am doing what I did as a child in an abusive situation

with nada or stepfada, which is to " go numb " and basically tune out

everything around me and virtually stop talking or showing any emotion or

doing

much of anything! I just shut down.

When this happens to me, I'm aware of it, but no matter how hard I try to

" snap out of it " I can't do it! It's NOT very adaptive, cuz I still have

these kids to take care of all day long, and a house to take care of, and

errands to run, and meals to prepare, and bills to pay, and calls to return,

and

work to do (I work at night) etc. It lasts for a good 24 hours, give or

take.

I'm virtually a zombie, doing nothing, ignoring everyone and everything

around me.

I literally have a very hard time even attending to anyone talking to

me--my son will say something and I just don't process it, and I have to ask

him

to repeat himself, maybe even twice. Even with great effort to the contrary,

I'm really tuned out to everything.

For some reason, this response wasn't a problem when he was

younger--possibly because in young kids, ADHD behaviors are not all that

different from a

kid-having-a-really-bad-day (except... he had that every day, ugh). But now

if it's coming out while he's older, it seems so inappropriate for his age

and " feels " abusive, even though I know when he is properly medicated he

will

not do this--that's not the person he is.

Moreover, he can switch Jekyll and Hyde several times a day. So, say he has

been horrid Mr Hyde in the morning. As soon as he gets control of himself,

he's really sorry. When I'm in this zombie state, all I want is for him to

get away from me (not just him, but anyone). He wants to hug and I don't

want

anyone touching me when I'm like this and am unable to hide that fact

completely.

And, we're a very " huggy " family, so it's very hard for him, if I respond

with a minimal hug. The other day he even said to me, " When you're like

this,

I almost feel like you dont love me or something. " That made me so sad.

I've tried to explain to him--but he's just 11 years old!-- " Son, I do love

you

and I know you're sorry for what you did. Sometimes your behavior upsets me

so badly that it takes me a whole day to get over it. It's an unusual thing,

and it's my problem, and it doesn't mean I don't love you. Tomorrow I'll

feel better again. " <<<And you better believe, to make a huge speech like

that while I'm zombified takes a lot of effort.

I mean, it's the best version of the truth that I can come up with, for an

11-year-old, but I can't say I think it makes a whole lot of sense to him.

Plus, when I'm zombified, it's a flat (probably unconvincing) zombie

voice--not a " mom voice " --so it probably isn't very comforting to him, you

know?

QUESTION: Anyone had an dissociation problem affect their parenting or

other relationshps? Are there any ways to " snap out of it " ? Are there any

meds

that might work on me? (I'm not big on taking meds, but this is hopefully a

short-term problem till he gets HIS meds straightened out, and in the

meantime, this zombie response is disabling.) Any good ideas on what worked,

in

terms of what to tell the kids? Once he's medicated again, and every day

isn't

a living h*** around here, I think the problem will resolve itself. In the

meantime, I'm struggling with this out-of-control child, and struggling with

guilt over my less-than-ideal response.

Thanks for reading a long post.

Flea

January 24, 2006

Weird. I had dream last night that nada gave me two gifts. Both were very

ugly sweaters from J Crew. She was beaming and cried when I stated the

obvious- Mom are these mens? Is this one used? I cannot wear these?

I think it is my subconscious telling me is always setting you up. Wrapping

things in pretty bows fully knowing you will cry and then making you

apologize for being the monster that gets upset with your games.

Weird.

>

> Hi Flea,

>

> I agree with Trish. Also, I'd be challenged, too, in your situation.

> When I'm feeling overwhelmed, especially emotionally, and no matter how

> I'm expressing it -- too much / not enough communication, inappropriate

> expressions / behaviors -- I know it's very important, whatever the

> feelings are, to get them out as soon and as safely as possible,

> preferably with another trusted adult.

>

> One Non-BP Recovering Man

>

> --- tlblack2006 wrote:

>

> > Flea, I never thought of that happening as a parent. I do not have kids

> > but I've had that

> > happen with my husband before. It's never lasted that long for me, but

> > I know the feeling:

> > it's like going into a black hole where you can't really take in input

> > from outside like

> > before. I can't focus on what anyone is saying. Most of the time, I

> > think to myself, " there's

> > no reason to be this upset, this doesn't make any sense, this is

> > probably a total

> > misunderstanding. . . " but I cannot talk myself out of it. Sometimes I

> > feel physically

> > incapacitated: just have to lie down until it goes away. I remember

> > doing this as a small

> > child, just curling up in a closet and waiting it all out.

> >

> > Are you going to therapy? I talked to my therapist about this and he

> > told me it's a good

> > idea to try to figure out what your thoughts are right before that

> > happens. THEN--instead

> > of trying to talk myself out of it when I was already upset, I would

> > figure out what I needed

> > to say to myself to counter these thoughts--they were mainly irrational

> > either overly

> > fearfull(afraid my husband was going to try to hurt me or was hurting me

> > on purpose) or

> > overly self-critical (afraid that my husband's percieved mistreatment of

> > me was because

> > I'm just no good etc.). I figured out some good affirmations to counter

> > the destructive

> > thinking patterns that came up the most and then said them to myself or

> > wrote them to

> > myself every day--not waiting until things " hit the fan. " I used to

> > have these episodes

> > every 3-4 weeks and now I can't even remember the last time--it's been

> > months.

> >

> > Also, I sat my husband down and explained to him that I thought I had a

> > problem, that I

> > was doing everything I could to resolve it. I explained to him that I

> > know it's not his fault,

> > that he didn't mean to upset me that when I'm like that I know there's

> > something wrong, I

> > want to snap out of it, but I can't just snap out just because I want

> > to.

> >

> > Maybe understanding how it works would be helpful for your son--and

> > knowing that

> > you're doing everything you can to help the situation might help too.

> >

> > Also, just wondering. If the behavior seems " abusive, " it might be a

> > good idea to make

> > sure that you really feel safe. If he's screaming at you and invading

> > your space while

> > doing it, that could feel quite threatening--and it's something you

> > should try to protect

> > yourself from. You could try to set some boundaries with him on that.

> > It might actually

> > be worth working with a therapist to put those boundaries in place. I

> > don't have kids but

> > I'm a high school teacher and I've seen some parents make amazing

> > progress with thier

> > kids through drugs AND help to get boundaries in place.

> >

> > Just some thoughts. I hope they help!

> >

> > Trish

> >

> > >

> > > Hi,all,

> > >

> > > I'm having a KO-related problem, but it requires some explanation,

> > please bear with

> > me! ;-)

> > >

> > > Some of you might remember, my 11-year-old son has severe ADHD. He

> > is on meds,

> > but lately the meds have not been working like they used to. As kids

> > grow, it's my

> > understanding that sometimes the dose or the med itself has to be

> > changed. His doc is

> > aware of this, and we are trying to resolve this. It's hit and miss,

> > and the process can take

> > months.

> > >

> > > When he's properly medicated, he's this lovely, funny, interesting,

> > enjoyable,

> > appreciative, kind, caring, creative, energetic, friendly, outgoing

> > person. He's got friends,

> > he's got hobbies--he's just a happy " normal " kid.

> > >

> > > When he's NOT properly medicated, he has this horrible Jekyll and

> > Hyde behavior--

> > happy (or his regular " normal " self) one minute, raging the next. He

> > doesn't seem to care

> > about consequences when he's not medicated--he'll lie, try to get out

> > of chores, blame

> > everyone else for his problems, yell at everyone with no provocation

> > (except

> > interestingly, his baby sister, who somehow he is always good to, no

> > matter how " crazed "

> > he is)-- he'll also throw things, growl like an animal, you name it.

> > Needless to say, he's

> > not able to concentrate on (or complete) his schoolwork or normal

> > tasks. He's agitated.

> > It's like he can't even hear you in that state, much less think enough

> > to change his

> > behavior.

> > >

> > > Jekyll and Hyde!

> > >

> > > I swear, you wouldn't believe it's the same child. And a lot of the

> > ADHD characteristics

> > are similar to BPD--the impulsivity, the lying, the raging, the

> > black-and-white thinking,

> > the blaming of everyone else for problems that he's created. It's relly

> > horrible for all of us

> > (including him) to live with.

> > >

> > > Now the doc has told me, and I've read books that tell me yes,

> > having a kid with

> > severe ADHD is like having any other " special needs child " ... this is a

> > very " real " disorder--

> > even if some people just think he must be a brat or poorly

> > disciplined--and trying to

> > reason with him while he's not properly medicated is like trying to

> > reason with an

> > unmedicated bipolar person or an unmedicated schizophrenic.

> > >

> > > So, I know I just have to hang in there till the medicine problem

> > gets resolved.

> > MEANWHILE here's my problem.

> > >

> > > I find that the older he gets, the more...abusive....it " feels " to

> > me, when he is doing his

> > bad ADHD behaviors. He's bigger, he's louder, and the rage just

> > triggers me--esp cause

> > the ADHD behaviors can be very similar to BPD behaviors..

> > >

> > > And so I find that I am doing what I did as a child in an abusive

> > situation with nada or

> > stepfada, which is to " go numb " and basically tune out everything

> > around me and virtually

> > stop talking or showing any emotion or doing much of anything! I just

> > shut down.

> > >

> > > When this happens to me, I'm aware of it, but no matter how hard I

> > try to " snap out of

> > it " I can't do it! It's NOT very adaptive, cuz I still have these kids

> > to take care of all day

> > long, and a house to take care of, and errands to run, and meals to

> > prepare, and bills to

> > pay, and calls to return, and work to do (I work at night) etc. It

> > lasts for a good 24 hours,

> > give or take. I'm virtually a zombie, doing nothing, ignoring everyone

> > and everything

> > around me.

> > >

> > > I literally have a very hard time even attending to anyone talking

> > to me--my son will

> > say something and I just don't process it, and I have to ask him to

> > repeat himself, maybe

> > even twice. Even with great effort to the contrary, I'm really tuned

> > out to everything.

> > >

> > > For some reason, this response wasn't a problem when he was

> > younger--possibly

> > because in young kids, ADHD behaviors are not all that different from a

> > kid-having-a-

> > really-bad-day (except... he had that every day, ugh). But now if it's

> > coming out while he's

> > older, it seems so inappropriate for his age and " feels " abusive, even

> > though I know when

> > he is properly medicated he will not do this--that's not the person he

> > is.

> > >

> > > Moreover, he can switch Jekyll and Hyde several times a day. So, say

> > he has been

> > horrid Mr Hyde in the morning. As soon as he gets control of himself,

> > he's really sorry.

> > When I'm in this zombie state, all I want is for him to get away from

> > me (not just him, but

> > anyone). He wants to hug and I don't want anyone touching me when I'm

> > like this and am

> > unable to hide that fact completely.

> > >

> > > And, we're a very " huggy " family, so it's very hard for him, if I

> > respond with a minimal

> > hug. The other day he even said to me, " When you're like this, I almost

> > feel like you dont

> > love me or something. " That made me so sad. I've tried to explain to

> > him--but he's just

> > 11 years old!-- " Son, I do love you and I know you're sorry for what you

> > did. Sometimes

> > your behavior upsets me so badly that it takes me a whole day to get

> > over it. It's an

> > unusual thing, and it's my problem, and it doesn't mean I don't love

> > you. Tomorrow I'll

> > feel better again. " <<<And you better believe, to make a huge speech

> > like that while I'm

> > zombified takes a lot of effort.

> > >

> > > I mean, it's the best version of the truth that I can come up with,

> > for an 11-year-old,

> > but I can't say I think it makes a whole lot of sense to him. Plus,

> > when I'm zombified, it's a

> > flat (probably unconvincing) zombie voice--not a " mom voice " --so it

> > probably isn't very

> > comforting to him, you know?

> > >

> > > QUESTION: Anyone had an dissociation problem affect their parenting

> > or other

> > relationshps? Are there any ways to " snap out of it " ? Are there any

> > meds that might work

> > on me? (I'm not big on taking meds, but this is hopefully a short-term

> > problem till he gets

> > HIS meds straightened out, and in the meantime, this zombie response is

> > disabling.) Any

> > good ideas on what worked, in terms of what to tell the kids? Once he's

> > medicated again,

> > and every day isn't a living h*** around here, I think the problem will

> > resolve itself. In the

> > meantime, I'm struggling with this out-of-control child, and struggling

> > with guilt over my

> > less-than-ideal response.

> > >

> > > Thanks for reading a long post.

> > > Flea

> > >

> > > ---------------------------------

> > > Yahoo! Photos

> > > Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events,

> > holidays, whatever.

> > >

January 24, 2006

Wow, Charlie,

Thanks for that VERY helpful, kind, informative post! It's so helpful to hear

from someone who is in the middle of working on this same issue.

You know, I have seen so many comments from people ABOUT the " inner child "

stuff, but honestly, I don't know much about it. Is there a book or something

you can recommend? As I mentioned in another post today (to Trish, I think), my

main obstacle to getting into therapy is to even have enough trust to go. I

just don't have any trust.

Now see, when you mentioned it is likely the preverbal child responding by

" playing dead " I really believe that is probably true. Because my main means of

" coping in my life " is trying to talk to myself or reason with myself. And that

doesn't seem to work with this " dissociation " response. There's no way to talk

my way out of it.

(I do also like Trish's idea of thinking about what I'm thinking BEFORE it

happens, because possibly I could reason with myself BEFORE it happens. Once

I'm in it though, forget it, I'm gone.)

When you said, my said my subconscious child might not know the diff between

my son and nada/stepfada, I think you are really onto something. Because my

" adult " self could list the differences all day long. But there is something in

me, which is responding really badly to his unpredictable raging.

Taking to the " kids " before an event is an interesting idea. How do you talk

to an infant LOL? That's a serious question, I really don't know anything about

this. Part of the problem of course, is that my son's outbursts are

upredictable...

I also like the idea of trying to prevent the dissociation from getting too

bad, like for you watching a movie will help. I don't know what will help me. I

usually do call my husband, even at work. Some days he has got a flexible

schedule and can come home a few hours early. He's very kind and understanding,

but he can't really bail me out, say, in the middle of a bad morning. And see,

I would love to be able to get out of the house for an hour--that really might

help!--when my son is in full freak-out mode, but he's not old enough to leave

him by himself, and I'm not sure I could ask anyone else, even grandparents,

to watch him in that state.

Of course, I can't expect you to psychically predict what will work for me!

lol I guess I will really have to figure this out for myself. But just knowing

that you have been working on your situation, and gotten positive results after

hard work, encourages me that I can do the same thing...

Also your insight " The part of

you that's dissociating is trying to be GOOD--she's trying to help you. If you

try to shame her for harming your son, that just keeps you from being in touch

w/her and preventing further dissociations

in the future. " That's a really interesting point. I've been really angry

with myself for dissociating, esp because I don't seem to have any control over

it. And this was probably a very adaptive response at some point. I want to

quit doing it, but beating myself up is probably not the most efficient route

to that goal!

Thanks so much for your post Charlie. I will let you know what works.

Flea

charlottehoneychurch wrote: