Re: Question for the group - the Jekyll and Hyde BP

[Guest guest]

I think my mother is a little different than some because she doesn't scream and

rage that

way in anger. Her anger is very cold, calculated and brutal. Her screaming is

from

frustration at not getting her way and resembles a child's tantrum. The other

thing is I

started staying away as much as possible as soon as I could. I haven't lived in

her home

since the summer I turned 20 - after that I stayed at college in the summer. I

did stay a

month or so before my wedding, but had a car and stayed out of the house as much

as

possible. Her behavior then was so bizarre it boggled my mind. So I haven't

been there to

experience her behavior much as an adult. And I wasn't around or in contact

with anyone

when I went NC, so I didn't have to hear about that too much either. What I did

hear was

enough to reenforce my NC decision. My guess is her behavior would have

escalated if I

were around as I was pulling away from her. And that her patterns would have

been more

clear if I saw them as an adult. Not that the insight would be worth being

around her. I

don't know how I made the decision to go NC, or what gave me the strength to do

it. But I

think if I hadn't done it so definitively, and so young, things would have

gotten very very

ugly.

fresabird

>

> Freasabird, I have seen the Jekyll and Hyde in a couple of different

> ways with my nada.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/17/2006 4:54:00 P.M. Central Standard Time,

smhtrain2@... writes:

> The reason I determine that I shouldn't write on here anymore is

because I am in limbo and think I've said too much or irritated

people with what I write and I haven't any idea what it might be

that I've said, then I think I don't know what boundaries are and

I've always got my foot in my mouth, I've been too aggressive or too

helpless or too complaining or too something and if I stick my foot

out of the covers it will get cut off.

Hey there....my foot is always in my mouth or I feel like it is. I even ask

my hubby when we leave visiting my family if I embarrassed him in anyway. He

always looks shocked that I even asked such a question. I think the way we

were raised makes us feel like we say the wrong thing all the time. Please

continue to post. Ignore people that you feel judge you too harshly then when

you

feel like it; if you feel like it, you can go back and read their comment

when you are feeling stronger and ready to hear what they feel about your

situation. Believe in yourself and don't expect to know or understand this

complex

bitter illness. Tonya

[Guest guest]

Hi Kathleen,

I check this board every day, although I am posting less and less.

I just wanted to say that I don't remember reading anything that

your posted that was too much or inappropriate. If anyone posts

something inappropriate, they would be contacted by our list

monitor.

Sometimes, some of the posts do stir strong emotions in others, but

I think that most of us try to be aware when that is happening.

It is good practice for KOs to respectfully disagree with each

other. This is a safe place to practice that skill. (Quite a

different situation from when we would disagree with nada!)

This is just a thought (and feel free to disagree!). Could some of

the feelings you are expressing be due to how you were made to feel

as a child when you said what was on your mind?

I hope you will reconsider your decision about not posting. This is

a very good place for a KO to be.

Take care,

Sylvia

........>

> The reason I determine that I shouldn't write on here anymore is

because I am in limbo and think I've said too much or irritated

people with what I write and I haven't any idea what it might be

that I've said, then I think I don't know what boundaries are and

I've always got my foot in my mouth, I've been too aggressive or too

helpless or too complaining or too something and if I stick my foot

out of the covers it will get cut off.

[Guest guest]

I read as much as my minimally-ADD mind could manage at one time.

LOL! but I am glad you posted this. I have know for awhile that my

nada had more than BPD, but I didn't know what else. Based on this

article, I would venture to state she is also a sociopath.

Whew...one more thing to take off of my to do list! hehe!

The whole area of personality disorders seems confusing at best.

There was a statement in this link about how they do overlap.

I agree with what someone posted in reply to something else: It

doesn't matter what it is called. We should not have had to suffer

the abuse we did suffer.

Thanks for putting this out there for us to consider. I always

enjoy reading your posts.

sylvia

> > > >

> > > > Anyone else deal with this? my mom is great when she is

great but

> > if

> > > > she's ticked - WATCH OUT! How does this fit with the BP

world of

> > > Oz?

> > > >

> > > > ~AC~

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

So the five are probably the various forms of personality disorder. Makes sense

as when I

read about the various ones I could see traits of three in particular in my nada

- bpd, apd

(antisocial or sociopath/psychopath) and a little narcisism (npd). Forgive me

if you have

mentioned this before, but have you read the book about bpd mothers? That

behavior

sounds very " hermit " like. I saw that some in my mother, but not that severe.

Of course a

lot of my childhood is a blur, so I don't think I would be able to look back and

pinpoint a

pattern to her " tantrums " other than the ones that were a direct reaction to me.

The worst

were when I had demonstrated my growing independence and would not bow to her

wishes. The one I remember most was the day I told her she would never ever

touch me

again - that she could punish me by grounding etc. but she would never lay a

hand on me

again (age 10). She screamed and cried forever. Another was when she found a

paper

where I had written " I hate Mom " about a hundred times, covering the paper, even

the

margins. The funny thing was I had written it a year or two before she found it

and

forgotten about it. She was so mad, that she did not notice the handwriting was

much

younger than I was at the time.

You are right, it doesn't matter what the diagnosis is, it matters how it has

affected us.

And what truly matters is what we are doing about it to get past it. The work

we are doing

to rise above our childhoods and move on as much as it is possible to do so.

I'm new, so I have no idea what you may or may not have done to irritate anyone.

I have

enjoyed reading your posts, and learned from them. I hope I " see' you around

here in the

future. And by the way, if you ever irritated me, or I felt you overstepped a

boundary

somehow, I would tell you directly. If you read that into something I type that

isn't direct,

it means that what I mean to say and what is coming across is wrong. Let me

know, and I

willl clarify. Sometimes the written word can convey meaning that is not

intended. I lived

with too much thinly veiled criticism and manipulation as a kid. As an adult, I

just don't

play those type of games. And I don't take it personally when someone disagrees

with

something I say either. I have often learned the most from someone with a

different

opinion than mine.

HTH

fresabird

>

> Fresabird, the nada in my FOO has the five overlapping. This came from a

counseling

agency. I wasn't told what all of them were. BPD was verified. Hysteria, I'm

sure although

in true hysteria the person can't come out of it if say they were slapped across

the face,

but she could stop hers on a dime when she wanted to. Sociopath, psychopath, I

don't

know and don't care. The important thing is we had to live with it under any

name. I was

told that BPD is not genetic and that I didn't have it, but it feels like I do

now.

>

> Is this at all familiar? Sometimes the screaming rages prefaced going out of

the house.

Not to relatives but other places. Church. Every Sunday. The only way she

could go

anywhere without losing it was spur-of-the-moment. If it was planned we

probably

wouldn't get there. I was older before I realized this. About two years ago

she had to go

35 miles away to pay taxes. She moaned and complained that she did not want to

go. It

was winter, the wind was blowing hard and I had a small car, her health could

not take it,

etc. Flailing arms, pacing the floor. I did not want to take her out in it

either, so I called

the county seat for information and discovered we could do this over the phone.

The only

thing that I can figure out is that I must have said " Oh I'm so glad we don't

have to go "

with a child's intonation and that set her off. Now she wanted to get out of

the house, she

was deprived of going somewhere, she had to get out of the house, screaming,

rage.

Flailing arms, pacing the floor.

>

> The reason I determine that I shouldn't write on here anymore is because I am

in limbo

and think I've said too much or irritated people with what I write and I haven't

any idea

what it might be that I've said, then I think I don't know what boundaries are

and I've

always got my foot in my mouth, I've been too aggressive or too helpless or too

complaining or too something and if I stick my foot out of the covers it will

get cut off.

>

>

[Guest guest]

I'll read it more tonight and send my thoughts. This whole area is something I

have

though a lot about, so I will be interested to see what they say.

fresabird

-- In WTOAdultChildren1 , Recovering Non-BP

wrote:

>

> fresabird and All,

>

> What do you think of http://faculty.ncwc.edu/toconnor/428/428lect16.htm?

[Guest guest]

Thank you and the others who responded.

I am a quiet, low-key person, reading, study, writing, outdoors, walking, etc.

Whenever we went anywhere nada and jealous brother would critique anything I

said on the way home and it was usually wrong. We did not talk back as per

upbringing at the time so I was not disrespectful. I was stuck in the house

with her and it seems to me she screamed at me all day long. I was shy and

fairly withdrawn when I was younger and when I talked it felt as though I was

sticking out all over and was horribly loud and obnoxious. I would get

overwhelmed by this feeling when actually I had barely made a dent in the

atmosphere. It was distorted perspective on my part. I'm wondering if the BP

has that, only opposite. Maybe the rages and screaming doesn't seem like

anything at all to them.

Re: Question for the group - the Jekyll and Hyde

BP

Hi Kathleen,

I check this board every day, although I am posting less and less.

I just wanted to say that I don't remember reading anything that

your posted that was too much or inappropriate. If anyone posts

something inappropriate, they would be contacted by our list

monitor.

Sometimes, some of the posts do stir strong emotions in others, but

I think that most of us try to be aware when that is happening.

It is good practice for KOs to respectfully disagree with each

other. This is a safe place to practice that skill. (Quite a

different situation from when we would disagree with nada!)

This is just a thought (and feel free to disagree!). Could some of

the feelings you are expressing be due to how you were made to feel

as a child when you said what was on your mind?

I hope you will reconsider your decision about not posting. This is

a very good place for a KO to be.

Take care,

Sylvia

.......>

> The reason I determine that I shouldn't write on here anymore is

because I am in limbo and think I've said too much or irritated

people with what I write and I haven't any idea what it might be

that I've said, then I think I don't know what boundaries are and

I've always got my foot in my mouth, I've been too aggressive or too

helpless or too complaining or too something and if I stick my foot

out of the covers it will get cut off.

Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @....

SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE and

the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

I'm glad you got a kick out of it! And 13 years - blows me away sometimes, but

it feels

good, really really good.

By the way, it was truly the end of the wallpaper saga for me as I can't stand

the stuff to

this day. I have removed all I could in every house so far (7 as an adult) and

part of what I

loved about my current home - the prior owner had repainted every room. There

is one

border in the laundry room, and it is currently teaching me patience, as there

are more

important things to do, but it's day will come..... :^)

fresabird

>

> Now it is my turn to laugh.

[Guest guest]

Ok, the kids are in bed and I had time to read this. Before I do, I have to ask

you

something. How should I refer to you at the beginning of a post? One Non-BP

Recovering

Man is kind of long. My guess is others here have come up with something, but

every

time I start to address you at the beginning of a post I am at a loss. What

would you

prefer?

So here goes. Be forewarned, I am shooting from the hip so to speak, as my

thoughts on

this whole thing seem to be in flux as I learn more. And I tend to process

things by

writing sometimes, so I could disagree with myself tomorrow.

I found the information in the article very very interesting. Especially all

the different

ways of dividing it out and classifying. This is the first time I have seen

Sociopath listed as

a subcategory of APD. I thought " sociaopath " was the kind of popularized term

and apd

was the current " medical " term for the same thing. All of the different ways

the various

disorders are split up are very interesting, and mind boggling at the same time.

So far, I

am leaning towards a continuam from higher functioning bpd where recovery is the

most

possible, sliding into the " witch " type bpd and on into apd (sociopath) with

npd, hpd and

other pds as kind of variations on the scale. Different focuses for the

disorder.

The other thing that struck me overall was how male focused everything is.

Maybe I am

sensitive to it after reading " When She Was Bad.... " but a lot of the criteria

they are using

are really " male " . No wonder more men are classified as sociopath/apd as the

criteria in

and of themselves are so focused on typical male behavior. If you took the same

stuff and

imposed social norms for females, and then social norms for a particular time

period I

think you could come up with different criteria. I wonder if the " witch " bpd

woman is a

different manifestation of the " sociopath " man. A lot of the critera seem to

look a lot at

" actions " rather than underlying attitudes/beliefs, reasoning. Which is really

interesting

since bpd is considered to some extent to be a more " female " disease. And the

diagnosis

for it seems to focus on out of control emotions, fear of abandonment etc.

Here is a list that has more traits than " symptoms " from this article:

Sense of entitlement; Unremorseful; Apathetic to others; Unconscionable

behavior;

Blameful of others; Manipulative and conning; Affectively cold; Disparate

understanding;

Socially irresponsible; Disregardful of obligations; Nonconforming to norms;

Irresponsible

Doesn't that seem a lot like npd? But then here is the list of " symptoms " :

Glib and superficial charm; Grandiose sense of self-worth; Need for stimulation;

Pathological lying; Conning and manipulativeness; Lack of remorse or guilt;

Shallow affect;

Callousness and lack of empathy; Parasitic lifestyle; Poor behavioral controls;

Promiscuous

sexual behavior; Early behavior problems; Lack of realistic, long-term goals;

Impulsivity;

Irresponsibility; Failure to accept responsibility for own actions; Many

short-term marital

relationships; Juvenile delinquency; Revocation of conditional release; Criminal

versatility

And I really noticed how later in the article they said that one of the things

in a sociopath's

background is a lack of a male role model. Does this apply to female

sociopaths? Have

researchers kind of accepted that women are not sociopaths and designed things

accordingly?

Another thing noted in the article was the notion that there were more

sociopaths who

were poor African American because most men in the prison population fit the apd

criteria

and there are so many more African American men there. They went on to say that

a

sociopath born into a rich white family might " eek out a living " in business or

politics.

My question would be how many CEO's have they checked for the criteria? It

brings to

mind something I have struggled with reading some of the research on women who

sexually abuse girls. One of the studies, that is then cited over and over in

subsequent

studies, classifies female sex offenders in 3 categories (another early study

cites 4). But

these studies were based on interviewing women in prison for sex crimes. In a

society

that really doesn't acknowledge that this type of abuse even exists, can you

imagine what

these women must have done to be tried and convicted? No wonder one of the

traits

noted was " low intellect " , as well as " low socio-economic status " . DUH! As a

friend in law

enforcement once said - we rarely catch the smart ones. And they were all abused

as kids

- as are pretty much every criminal that is asked - sometimes true, but of

course, you are

asking someone who has proven themselves to be dishonest, so....... Another

study used

interviews with CPS, and documented abuse through them. There were more female

abusers in single, poor black families. But the social workers admitted that

their

investigations are swayed by the socio-economic status of the family. And this

type of

abuse is often discovered in the course of investigating other allegations. So

the basic

premise of the studies is flawed from the get go if they really want to study

female

offenders. I have read some authors who totally acknowledge this, stating that

they are

giving a snapshot of the group they had to study, but others seem to be

extrapolating to

the general population from a handful of examples. And then their colleagues

quote them

and it continues.

I know it would be hard if not impossible to get a clear picture of this type of

stuff across

the population, but to me, they need to more clearly define what the goal is

first. Is apd

considered a male thing or a human thing? And if it is a human thing, how might

these

traits manifest in women differently. Same thing with bpd. I don't think

these types of

disorders are going to turn out to be treatable with meds in the way that

bipolar and

schizophrenia are. In those cases, the patient has to make the choice to take

the meds

and whatever other treatment they need. But with personality disorders, the

behavior

seems to be driven more by a balance between personal choice, emotion (or lack

thereof)

and environment. I wonder if you could strip away the gender stuff, if you

would see a

similar mechanism behind it for an apd man and a bpd woman, and find a similar

scale

from more functional on down.

Have you read " The Sociopath Next Door " . It was very interesting, as it gave

real life

examples. I felt towards the end that the author lost track of where she was

going, but

the descriptions were very very interesting. These are not the people that are

in the

studies. These are the people that create chaos all around us. " People of the

Lie "

approaches the same thing from a different angle.

As for how all this relates to my mother, I'm so tired my eyelids are drooping,

so I won't

elaborate too much, but I think she falls somewhere on the scale more toward

apd.

According to a lot of the criteria, criminal activity is a prereq for the apd

club. But I find it

interesting that they assume incarceration. If they expand it to fit criminal

activity that

was never noticed, or prosecuted, there would be a lot more people in the

category. And

if they included child abuse as a crime, then a lot of bpd mothers, especially

the witches,

would fall right in line.

Sorry this is so long, and probably disjointed. I don't have time to edit it,

so if it is

completely incoherent, feel free to delete. As you can tell, this is something

I have

thought a lot about, but not been able to pin much down.

fresabird

> fresabird and All,

>

> What do you think of http://faculty.ncwc.edu/toconnor/428/428lect16.htm?

> It's about APD (Anti-social Personality Disorder) and similar stuff.

> WARNING: it's NOT pleasant. It mentions BPD once. It could be disturbing

> to read. It's also very informative.

>

> One Non-BP Recovering Man