Re: Would appreciate advice

[Guest guest]

Hi Helena,

That sucks, I feel for you.

I say, if you basically know that the event won't be fun for you and

it's a self-torture white-knuckle thing for the sake of acting strong,

and you'll be worrying about it every minute until it happens, I say

skip it. Maybe you can think of something else to do at that time,

something just for you, a massage or a treat?

If you think it COULD POSSIBLY be fun, I say risk it and go. You

don't know how you'll feel in that moment. Maybe you will feel full

of joy and lightness. It is a mystery.

(Now I must disclaim that that my personal view and I am just and ACT

beginner so I don't know if th at's an ACT answer or what.)

In the meantime, don't make it worse by belittling yourself for

feeling small or heartbroken, or having thoughts that are not the

truth. These are the sensations that make the world go around.

Colette

>

> I am dealing with something now that is causing acute distress. I

have been seeing a man for about three months. I knew he was not a

potential partner (from what he said to me), so I found myself

struggling with my strong feelings for him that came up. He is truly

an attractive, wonderful man and much younger then his 64 years. He

now thinks of me as one of his best friends.

>

> I knew he was looking for a potential spouse (he has never been

married). I recently earned that he has found someone via the

internet in whom he is very interested, and they have travelled the

200 miles to see each other several times since I've known him. This

coming Saturday, he told me he is taking her to a peace dance, which

he took me to last month -- and I assumed I would go with him again

this month. When he told me that, my chest and stomach tightened and

I became phsycially ill. My heart was pounding out of my chest.

Feelings of betrayal and rejection and not being good enough are

running non-stop through my mind, even though I intellectually

recognize that my feelings are not the truth about me.

>

> I have been acknowledging my stressful thoughts and feelings and

then just letting them go. Then they pop up again immediately.

>

> Now I am trying to decide if I want to go to this dance alone and

see HER, which could be upsetting to me. A part of me says " face your

fears " but another part says " don't put yourself in a hurtful

situation. " I am brave enough to go and just flow with whatever

happens, but I must say it terrifies me.

>

> What to do?

>

> Thanks,

>

> Helena

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks for your insight and helpful comments, Colette. I have decided not to go to the dance; it would be very painful for me. Instead, I need to work on my never-ending feelings of rejection and abandonment. I'm sure it stems from being placed in a permanent children's home when I was four years old, after temporary stays at other homes. Yes, my parents abandoned us five kids. I have made peace with that intellectually, but not emotionally.

I bought the book primarily to deal with this issue. I have not gotten very far into it yet, so am not sure how ACT can help me with this problem--need to get to the "defusing" part, I think. I even feel rejected when friends of mine at work go to lunch together and don't invite me, so it's a rather pervasive negative part of my being in this world -- being "not good enough". I hope I find the help I need via the book and this list.

Thanks again!

Helena

Re: Would appreciate advice

Hi Helena,That sucks, I feel for you.I say, if you basically know that the event won't be fun for you andit's a self-torture white-knuckle thing for the sake of acting strong,and you'll be worrying about it every minute until it happens, I sayskip it. Maybe you can think of something else to do at that time,something just for you, a massage or a treat?If you think it COULD POSSIBLY be fun, I say risk it and go. Youdon't know how you'll feel in that moment. Maybe you will feel fullof joy and lightness. It is a mystery.(Now I must disclaim that that my personal view and I am just and ACTbeginner so I don't know if th at's an ACT answer or what.)In the meantime, don't make it worse by belittling yourself forfeeling small or heartbroken, or having thoughts that are not thetruth. These are the sensations that make the world go around. Colette>> I am dealing with something now that is causing acute distress. Ihave been seeing a man for about three months. I knew he was not apotential partner (from what he said to me), so I found myselfstruggling with my strong feelings for him that came up. He is trulyan attractive, wonderful man and much younger then his 64 years. Henow thinks of me as one of his best friends.> > I knew he was looking for a potential spouse (he has never beenmarried). I recently earned that he has found someone via theinternet in whom he is very interested, and they have travelled the200 miles to see each other several times since I've known him. Thiscoming Saturday, he told me he is taking her to a peace dance, whichhe took me to last month -- and I assumed I would go with him againthis month. When he told me that, my chest and stomach tightened andI became phsycially ill. My heart was pounding out of my chest. Feelings of betrayal and rejection and not being good enough arerunning non-stop through my mind, even though I intellectuallyrecognize that my feelings are not the truth about me.> > I have been acknowledging my stressful thoughts and feelings andthen just letting them go. Then they pop up again immediately. > > Now I am trying to decide if I want to go to this dance alone andsee HER, which could be upsetting to me. A part of me says "face yourfears" but another part says "don't put yourself in a hurtfulsituation." I am brave enough to go and just flow with whateverhappens, but I must say it terrifies me.> > What to do?> > Thanks,> > Helena>

[Guest guest]

Hi Helena

That sure sucks. What a hand you were dealt. I hope you will find

ACT to be helpful on your journey.

I had a difficult childhood and I've found that

'acceptance'--accepting who my parents were, accepting what happened

even though much of it was 'wrong'--has been really helpful.

warmly Colette

> >

> > I am dealing with something now that is causing acute distress. I

> have been seeing a man for about three months. I knew he was not a

> potential partner (from what he said to me), so I found myself

> struggling with my strong feelings for him that came up. He is truly

> an attractive, wonderful man and much younger then his 64 years. He

> now thinks of me as one of his best friends.

> >

> > I knew he was looking for a potential spouse (he has never been

> married). I recently earned that he has found someone via the

> internet in whom he is very interested, and they have travelled the

> 200 miles to see each other several times since I've known him. This

> coming Saturday, he told me he is taking her to a peace dance, which

> he took me to last month -- and I assumed I would go with him again

> this month. When he told me that, my chest and stomach tightened and

> I became phsycially ill. My heart was pounding out of my chest.

> Feelings of betrayal and rejection and not being good enough are

> running non-stop through my mind, even though I intellectually

> recognize that my feelings are not the truth about me.

> >

> > I have been acknowledging my stressful thoughts and feelings and

> then just letting them go. Then they pop up again immediately.

> >

> > Now I am trying to decide if I want to go to this dance alone and

> see HER, which could be upsetting to me. A part of me says " face your

> fears " but another part says " don't put yourself in a hurtful

> situation. " I am brave enough to go and just flow with whatever

> happens, but I must say it terrifies me.

> >

> > What to do?

> >

> > Thanks,

> >

> > Helena

> >

>

[Guest guest]

How do you know you are accepting and not just giving lip service to acceptance?

I accept my parents and what they did because I know they did the best they could at the time. What is harder is accepting myself. This voice in my head is constantly screaming at me that I couldn't be that worthwhile if my own parents could give me away. I am practicing accepting that voice and realize that it is lying about me. I guess that's the first step.

Helena

Re: Would appreciate advice

Hi HelenaThat sure sucks. What a hand you were dealt. I hope you will findACT to be helpful on your journey.I had a difficult childhood and I've found that'acceptance'--accepting who my parents were, accepting what happenedeven though much of it was 'wrong'--has been really helpful.warmly Colette> >> > I am dealing with something now that is causing acute distress. I> have been seeing a man for about three months. I knew he was not a> potential partner (from what he said to me), so I found myself> struggling with my strong feelings for him that came up. He is truly> an attractive, wonderful man and much younger then his 64 years. He> now thinks of me as one of his best friends.> > > > I knew he was looking for a potential spouse (he has never been> married). I recently earned that he has found someone via the> internet in whom he is very interested, and they have travelled the> 200 miles to see each other several times since I've known him. This> coming Saturday, he told me he is taking her to a peace dance, which> he took me to last month -- and I assumed I would go with him again> this month. When he told me that, my chest and stomach tightened and> I became phsycially ill. My heart was pounding out of my chest. > Feelings of betrayal and rejection and not being good enough are> running non-stop through my mind, even though I intellectually> recognize that my feelings are not the truth about me.> > > > I have been acknowledging my stressful thoughts and feelings and> then just letting them go. Then they pop up again immediately. > > > > Now I am trying to decide if I want to go to this dance alone and> see HER, which could be upsetting to me. A part of me says "face your> fears" but another part says "don't put yourself in a hurtful> situation." I am brave enough to go and just flow with whatever> happens, but I must say it terrifies me.> > > > What to do?> > > > Thanks,> > > > Helena> >>

[Guest guest]

Hi Helena,

<<<How do you know you are accepting and not just giving lip service

to acceptance?>>>

This is a great question. Accepting your feelings and reactions

means letting them happen. When you feel a difficult feeling--for

example anxiety, jealousy, or anger--acceptance means allowing the

feeling to occur.

In acceptance, you are not suppressing the feeling. At the same

time, you are not stimulating it. You are just letting it take

place. There is no straining or controlling or evaluating or

analyzing involved. Just letting.

One thing to remember here is that when you experience difficult

feelings, your mind will try to give commentary or play-by-play. So,

" I'm feeling anxious right now " might become " I'm feeling anxious

right now and this proves that I'm not doing ACT correctly and

therefore ACT will never work for me and therefore I shouldn't even

bother bla bla bla " . We call this mind chatter. The proper response

is no response. You don't have to respond. Let your mind keep

chattering until it gets tired. The chatter will probably anger and

frustrate you at first--and that's OK. Over time, you will become

accustomed to it, and it will have less of an effect on you.

The same goes for questions. Your mind will ask questions all day

long: " Is this working? " " Are you doing this correctly? " " How will

you know if bla bla bla " Don't waste your time trying to answer the

questions. Straining to find the answer will only make you more

confused. Just keep moving with the material, doing the exercises,

and things will start to fall into place.

<<<What is harder is accepting myself. This voice in my head is

constantly screaming at me that I couldn't be that worthwhile if my

own parents could give me away. I am practicing accepting that voice

and realize that it is lying about me. I guess that's the first

step.>>>

It's tough because when our minds tell us that we

aren't " worthwhile " , it feels true.

But here is an exercise. Try to imagine that, by some miracle, you

have managed to become fully " worthwhile. "

Now that the story is over, what happens then?

What happens with me is that the story ain't over. Oh no. My mind

doesn't want to stop or give in. It will continue until it finds a

reason why, even in this scenario, I would not be " worthwhile " .

You can see, then, that this notion of self-judgment and self-

criticism is nothing more than a stupid game that minds like to

play. It's impossible to win the game, so you have to just stop

playing along.

Best wishes,

--

> Re: Would appreciate advice

>

>

> Hi Helena

>

> That sure sucks. What a hand you were dealt. I hope you will find

> ACT to be helpful on your journey.

>

> I had a difficult childhood and I've found that

> 'acceptance'--accepting who my parents were, accepting what

happened

> even though much of it was 'wrong'--has been really helpful.

>

> warmly Colette

>

>

> > >

> > > I am dealing with something now that is causing acute

distress. I

> > have been seeing a man for about three months. I knew he was

not a

> > potential partner (from what he said to me), so I found myself

> > struggling with my strong feelings for him that came up. He is

truly

> > an attractive, wonderful man and much younger then his 64

years. He

> > now thinks of me as one of his best friends.

> > >

> > > I knew he was looking for a potential spouse (he has never

been

> > married). I recently earned that he has found someone via the

> > internet in whom he is very interested, and they have travelled

the

> > 200 miles to see each other several times since I've known him.

This

> > coming Saturday, he told me he is taking her to a peace dance,

which

> > he took me to last month -- and I assumed I would go with him

again

> > this month. When he told me that, my chest and stomach

tightened and

> > I became phsycially ill. My heart was pounding out of my chest.

> > Feelings of betrayal and rejection and not being good enough are

> > running non-stop through my mind, even though I intellectually

> > recognize that my feelings are not the truth about me.

> > >

> > > I have been acknowledging my stressful thoughts and feelings

and

> > then just letting them go. Then they pop up again immediately.

> > >

> > > Now I am trying to decide if I want to go to this dance alone

and

> > see HER, which could be upsetting to me. A part of me

says " face your

> > fears " but another part says " don't put yourself in a hurtful

> > situation. " I am brave enough to go and just flow with whatever

> > happens, but I must say it terrifies me.

> > >

> > > What to do?

> > >

> > > Thanks,

> > >

> > > Helena

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Helena,

My situation is not the same as yours, but I'll tell you what happened

with me.

Basically, One day, after years of actively hating my parents, I

realized that they were sort of tragic figures. I completely gave up

on being parented by them. I gave up on the whole notion of being

whatsoever parented. There was some truth in this, as I never really

was properly parented. I realized that I was a sort of self-made

person and that seemed true and neat, and like I had not done half-bad

with myself. I didn't 'do' this, it sort of just happened.

I have lots of other problems which may or may not be related to my

childhood heartbreaks, but feeling busted up over my child-self is

pretty much no longer there, unless I really feel dramatic and feel

like crying and then I can sort of call it up on purpose. Well, once

in a while in bubbles up on its own. Not too often.

I don't quite know what happened--but I do think acceptance had

something to do with freeing me from some suffering.

Now, if I could only ride in the backseat of a car without having a

panic episode...

Seriously, I wish you all the best. I strongly believe that taking

the time to develop mindfulness skills will be helpful to you (I think

it's helpful to everyone). I would start by feeling your feelings and

not attaching a narrative to them. Say yes to them.

warmly, Colette

[Guest guest]

I, in all due respect to this groups efforts, must

follow up on what Helena suggests. How does one accept

when there are expectations. IOW's the concept of

acceptance means to me a total surrender with no

expectations whatsoever. However it seems to me

contrary to what the groups intentions are. There is

an expectation of getting something by accepting which

then implies not acceptance but expectation? I will

have a better life by accepting, but that is not

acceptance that is expectation. the two are very

different it seems to me.

Mike

--- Helena wrote:

> How do you know you are accepting and not just

> giving lip service to acceptance?

>

> I accept my parents and what they did because I know

> they did the best they could at the time. What is

> harder is accepting myself. This voice in my head is

> constantly screaming at me that I couldn't be that

> worthwhile if my own parents could give me away. I

> am practicing accepting that voice and realize that

> it is lying about me. I guess that's the first

> step.

>

> Helena

>

> Re: Would appreciate

> advice

>

>

> Hi Helena

>

> That sure sucks. What a hand you were dealt. I

> hope you will find

> ACT to be helpful on your journey.

>

> I had a difficult childhood and I've found that

> 'acceptance'--accepting who my parents were,

> accepting what happened

> even though much of it was 'wrong'--has been

> really helpful.

>

> warmly Colette

>

>

> > >

> > > I am dealing with something now that is

> causing acute distress. I

> > have been seeing a man for about three months. I

> knew he was not a

> > potential partner (from what he said to me), so

> I found myself

> > struggling with my strong feelings for him that

> came up. He is truly

> > an attractive, wonderful man and much younger

> then his 64 years. He

> > now thinks of me as one of his best friends.

> > >

> > > I knew he was looking for a potential spouse

> (he has never been

> > married). I recently earned that he has found

> someone via the

> > internet in whom he is very interested, and they

> have travelled the

> > 200 miles to see each other several times since

> I've known him. This

> > coming Saturday, he told me he is taking her to

> a peace dance, which

> > he took me to last month -- and I assumed I

> would go with him again

> > this month. When he told me that, my chest and

> stomach tightened and

> > I became phsycially ill. My heart was pounding

> out of my chest.

> > Feelings of betrayal and rejection and not being

> good enough are

> > running non-stop through my mind, even though I

> intellectually

> > recognize that my feelings are not the truth

> about me.

> > >

> > > I have been acknowledging my stressful

> thoughts and feelings and

> > then just letting them go. Then they pop up

> again immediately.

> > >

> > > Now I am trying to decide if I want to go to

> this dance alone and

> > see HER, which could be upsetting to me. A part

> of me says " face your

> > fears " but another part says " don't put yourself

> in a hurtful

> > situation. " I am brave enough to go and just

> flow with whatever

> > happens, but I must say it terrifies me.

> > >

> > > What to do?

> > >

> > > Thanks,

> > >

> > > Helena

> > >

> >

>

>

>

>

Mike C.

No man is free who is not master of himself.

Epictetus (55 AD - 135 AD)

________________________________________________________________________________\

____

Looking for last minute shopping deals?

Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

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[Guest guest]

Mike,

You bring up some good questions. Let me see if I can make some

sense of them.

<<<How does one accept when there are expectations. IOW's the concept

of acceptance means to me a total surrender with no expectations

whatsoever.>>>

Try to understand acceptance not as a feeling but as a stance that we

take towards the features of our lives that our outside of our

control--especially our thoughts, feelings, and reactions.

Consider the example of recurrent feelings of panic. The natural

inclinication of a person who experiences recurrent feelings of panic

is to try their hardest to stop the *next* occurrence from taking

place. The person will try to control panic to the maximum extent

possible so that it doesn't happen again.

But this approach doesn't work. It only makes the problem worse.

Eventually, it *becomes* the very problem that it is trying to

solve.

So instead of trying to control panic, the better approach is to

accept it. What we mean by 'accept' is to let go of control and to

expose ourselves to whatever feelings arise naturally in the

situation.

We let panic decide when it is going to happen. We let it regulate

its own occurrence. Of course, the panic itself continues to be a

miserable and frightful experience. We continue to fear it and to

flinch in its presence. But these are just more feelings and

reactions that we need to accept.

<<<I will have a better life by accepting, but that is not acceptance

that is expectation. the two are very different it seems to me.>>>

To me, acceptance as described above seems fully compatible with the

hope for a better life. Note that this life will still be temporary

and finite, filled with almost as much pain as joy. But for many of

us, such a life is infinitely better than the status quo.

Now, I think you are right to notice that excessive expectations can

interfere with the outcome. It helps if you can let go of

expectations a bit and just proceed with a beginner's mind--take

a " let's see what happens with this stuff " attitude. But if you

can't, that's OK too. ACT will teach you how to loosen things up in

your mind so that you can more easily stand back and let the process

happen.

> > > >

> > > > I am dealing with something now that is

> > causing acute distress. I

> > > have been seeing a man for about three months. I

> > knew he was not a

> > > potential partner (from what he said to me), so

> > I found myself

> > > struggling with my strong feelings for him that

> > came up. He is truly

> > > an attractive, wonderful man and much younger

> > then his 64 years. He

> > > now thinks of me as one of his best friends.

> > > >

> > > > I knew he was looking for a potential spouse

> > (he has never been

> > > married). I recently earned that he has found

> > someone via the

> > > internet in whom he is very interested, and they

> > have travelled the

> > > 200 miles to see each other several times since

> > I've known him. This

> > > coming Saturday, he told me he is taking her to

> > a peace dance, which

> > > he took me to last month -- and I assumed I

> > would go with him again

> > > this month. When he told me that, my chest and

> > stomach tightened and

> > > I became phsycially ill. My heart was pounding

> > out of my chest.

> > > Feelings of betrayal and rejection and not being

> > good enough are

> > > running non-stop through my mind, even though I

> > intellectually

> > > recognize that my feelings are not the truth

> > about me.

> > > >

> > > > I have been acknowledging my stressful

> > thoughts and feelings and

> > > then just letting them go. Then they pop up

> > again immediately.

> > > >

> > > > Now I am trying to decide if I want to go to

> > this dance alone and

> > > see HER, which could be upsetting to me. A part

> > of me says " face your

> > > fears " but another part says " don't put yourself

> > in a hurtful

> > > situation. " I am brave enough to go and just

> > flow with whatever

> > > happens, but I must say it terrifies me.

> > > >

> > > > What to do?

> > > >

> > > > Thanks,

> > > >

> > > > Helena

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

> Mike C.

>

>

> No man is free who is not master of himself.

> Epictetus (55 AD - 135 AD)

>

>

>

>

>

>

______________________________________________________________________

______________

> Looking for last minute shopping deals?

> Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping

>

[Guest guest]

,

I certainly agree with the basic premise. I just

cannot wrap my mind around the concept; probably

because it is a concept. Let me take a shot. The

taoists talked about this very thing thousands of

years ago-so let's establish that it is a very ancient

subject. the taoists as i understand them speak about

an individual and the idea of non-resistance. " The

watercourse Way. " IOW's we are embedded in life with

the illusion of having a distinct, separate existence.

Our ego's fight and resist the inevitable flow of life

and at the same time the ego and its illusions are,

too, simply a manifestation of that life flow. There

is no way to come to this intellectually because the

intellect by its nature must conceptualize and the

whole dividing process comes into play. We are really

victims of our own capacity for thinking and

conceptualizing. Therefore when we say we will accept

life taking the good with the bad, underneath that

concept is another concept expecting a payoff--relief

from suffering. As long as it is conceptual this is

inevitable--no way out. We are imprisoned as it were

by our own minds. it seems to me if Psychiatry is

going to use this method to treat folks it ought to at

least confront this fact and relegate this to what is

ultimately a non-intellectual enterprise. You can't

have it both ways and I guess that is where i am

coming from. Acceptance implies expectations--at least

on the intellectual level and the cycle of opposites

is set in motion. IOW's " I will accept my panic

attacks but i really don't; I just delude myself into

saying that i do because i approach life as if I'm in

control. If I believe that, I cannot accept on a

fundamental level.

If there is a way out--I'm not at all sure there is;

then it would have to be something transcendant.

Somehow we step back and transcend this

intellect/ego/mindset whatever you prefer to call it.

An awareness that is no longer part of that whole

mess. That's what Tolle, Krishnamurti, lao Tzu,

possibly Jesus, and certainly the Buddha were/are

speaking about or pointing to.

To sum it up I think one needs to have a clear picture

of this dilemma and move from that point. So if a

panic attack occurred it would be experienced by a

higher awareness that would simply observe the mental

phenomenon without getting caught up in it. I, who

have had PA's on occasion, cannot imagine the

possibility of it; in fact my guess is that if one

moved beyond the ego-if this is even possible for most

of us-then panic attacks would not ever occur because

the fundamental problem of delusion would be settled

and panic attacks are certainly forms of a deluded

mind. That is not to say one cannot move beyond them

because within the ego structure there are methods to

de-stress, avoid caffiene, alchohol, use exercise etc.

and these do really help. For myself just cutting back

on caffiene solved the problem 95%. All I'm trying to

say is let us be very clear on what we mean by

acceptance.

Most humbly,

Mike

--- Parks wrote:

> Mike,

>

> You bring up some good questions. Let me see if I

> can make some

> sense of them.

>

> <<<How does one accept when there are expectations.

> IOW's the concept

> of acceptance means to me a total surrender with no

> expectations

> whatsoever.>>>

>

> Try to understand acceptance not as a feeling but as

> a stance that we

> take towards the features of our lives that our

> outside of our

> control--especially our thoughts, feelings, and

> reactions.

>

> Consider the example of recurrent feelings of panic.

> The natural

> inclinication of a person who experiences recurrent

> feelings of panic

> is to try their hardest to stop the *next*

> occurrence from taking

> place. The person will try to control panic to the

> maximum extent

> possible so that it doesn't happen again.

>

> But this approach doesn't work. It only makes the

> problem worse.

> Eventually, it *becomes* the very problem that it is

> trying to

> solve.

>

> So instead of trying to control panic, the better

> approach is to

> accept it. What we mean by 'accept' is to let go of

> control and to

> expose ourselves to whatever feelings arise

> naturally in the

> situation.

>

> We let panic decide when it is going to happen. We

> let it regulate

> its own occurrence. Of course, the panic itself

> continues to be a

> miserable and frightful experience. We continue to

> fear it and to

> flinch in its presence. But these are just more

> feelings and

> reactions that we need to accept.

>

> <<<I will have a better life by accepting, but that

> is not acceptance

> that is expectation. the two are very different it

> seems to me.>>>

>

> To me, acceptance as described above seems fully

> compatible with the

> hope for a better life. Note that this life will

> still be temporary

> and finite, filled with almost as much pain as joy.

> But for many of

> us, such a life is infinitely better than the status

> quo.

>

> Now, I think you are right to notice that excessive

> expectations can

> interfere with the outcome. It helps if you can let

> go of

> expectations a bit and just proceed with a

> beginner's mind--take

> a " let's see what happens with this stuff " attitude.

> But if you

> can't, that's OK too. ACT will teach you how to

> loosen things up in

> your mind so that you can more easily stand back and

> let the process

> happen.

>

>

> > > >

> > > > Thanks for your insight and helpful

> comments,

> > > Colette. I have

> > > decided not to go to the dance; it would be

> very

> > > painful for me.

> > > Instead, I need to work on my never-ending

> > > feelings of rejection and

> > > abandonment. I'm sure it stems from being

> placed

> > > in a permanent

> > > children's home when I was four years old,

> after

> > > temporary stays at

> > > other homes. Yes, my parents abandoned us five

> > > kids. I have made

> > > peace with that intellectually, but not

> > > emotionally.

> > > >

> > > > I bought the book primarily to deal with

> this

> > > issue. I have not

> > > gotten very far into it yet, so am not sure

> how

> > > ACT can help me with

> > > this problem--need to get to the " defusing "

> part,

> > > I think. I even

> > > feel rejected when friends of mine at work go

> to

> > > lunch together and

> > > don't invite me, so it's a rather pervasive

> > > negative part of my being

> > > in this world -- being " not good enough " . I

> hope I

> > > find the help I

> > > need via the book and this list.

> > > >

> > > > Thanks again!

> > > >

> > > > Helena

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Re: Would

> > > appreciate advice

> > > >

>

=== message truncated ===

Mike C.

No man is free who is not master of himself.

Epictetus (55 AD - 135 AD)

________________________________________________________________________________\

____

Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.

http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

[Guest guest]

,

I'd suggest (and I assume would agree) an alternative approach:

let go of trying to estimate from a safe distance whether ACT can

possibly work. It's like trying to swim across a pond while not

getting wet.

Why not try it out for yourself? Keep your skepticism with you.

Question everything. Let us know your experience if you like, or not

if you'd rather not.

The most direct way to proceed: get a copy of " Out of Your Mind and

Into Your Life " if you haven't already, and walk through it at your

own pace. Do the exercises rather than just read - very important.

Good luck!

Randy

> > > > >

> > > > > Thanks for your insight and helpful

> > comments,

> > > > Colette. I have

> > > > decided not to go to the dance; it would be

> > very

> > > > painful for me.

> > > > Instead, I need to work on my never-ending

> > > > feelings of rejection and

> > > > abandonment. I'm sure it stems from being

> > placed

> > > > in a permanent

> > > > children's home when I was four years old,

> > after

> > > > temporary stays at

> > > > other homes. Yes, my parents abandoned us five

> > > > kids. I have made

> > > > peace with that intellectually, but not

> > > > emotionally.

> > > > >

> > > > > I bought the book primarily to deal with

> > this

> > > > issue. I have not

> > > > gotten very far into it yet, so am not sure

> > how

> > > > ACT can help me with

> > > > this problem--need to get to the " defusing "

> > part,

> > > > I think. I even

> > > > feel rejected when friends of mine at work go

> > to

> > > > lunch together and

> > > > don't invite me, so it's a rather pervasive

> > > > negative part of my being

> > > > in this world -- being " not good enough " . I

> > hope I

> > > > find the help I

> > > > need via the book and this list.

> > > > >

> > > > > Thanks again!

> > > > >

> > > > > Helena

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Re: Would

> > > > appreciate advice

> > > > >

> >

> === message truncated ===

>

>

>

> Mike C.

>

>

> No man is free who is not master of himself.

> Epictetus (55 AD - 135 AD)

>

>

>

>

>

>

________________________________________________________________________________\

____

> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.

> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

>

[Guest guest]

Great post, Mike.

Are you working with " Get Out Of Your Mind And Into Your Life " or any

of the other ACT workbooks?

I would recommend that you take a look at " Acceptance and Commitment

Therapy: An Experiential Approach to Behavioral Change " by S. ,

K. Strosahl, and K. . Here is a preview on google books:

http://books.google.com/books?

id=ZCeB0JxG6EcC & dq=acceptance+and+commitment+therapy+an+experiential+a

pproach+to+behavorial+change & pg=PP1 & ots=iiwYjKO8sl & sig=f_Y9v8As1XdK_Z8

CKv-RUXiNR64 & hl=en & prev=http://www.google.com/search?

hl=en & q=acceptance+and+commitment+therapy+an+experiential+approach+to+

behavorial+change & sa=X & oi=print & ct=title & cad=one-book-with-

thumbnail#PPP1,M1

Judging from your post, you will definitely enjoy the read. It

addresses your concerns rigorously and explicitly.

Three quick points:

1) I don't have any formal training in psychology or in ACT, so take

what I say here with a grain of salt ;-)

2) The mind is an extremely complex entity. It is probably governed

by physical laws, not by the psychological descriptions that we use

to model its behavior. To be useful and effective, our statements

about the mind need to be afforded a significant amount of

flexibility.

In physics or mathematics, loose, metaphorical, or paradoxical ways

of speaking are generally not allowed. But in this area: they are

both allowed and required. They help immensely.

We have to be careful, though, because if we try to interpret

metaphors or paradoxes in a literal fashion--if we try to solve their

puzzles, so to speak--they will not help us. We will get confused

and entangled in their statements. That is not the goal.

3) The underlying methodology behind ACT is a form of pragmatism.

The guiding question is, what works? We go with what works, and we

let go of what does not work. Ultimately, the way to know what works

is by observation, not by rationally expounding on a given model. We

can use models to clarify and communicate ideas, but we should never

use them in a way that yields conclusions that conflict with our

experience. This point is absolutely crucial.

<<<I just cannot wrap my mind around the concept; probably because it

is a concept.>>>

For me, if I try to wrap my mind around a concept too tightly, I get

entangled and confused in my own thinking. I have never found an

area of thought where this effect does not apply. So my advice would

be to hold concepts lightly.

<<<the taoists as i understand them speak about an individual and the

idea of non-resistance. " The watercourse Way. " IOW's we are embedded

in life with the illusion of having a distinct, separate existence.

Our ego's fight and resist the inevitable flow of life and at the

same time the ego and its illusions are, too, simply a manifestation

of that life flow.>>>

The taoist model is fine as long as we remember that it is a model.

Where its predictions conflict with our experience, we go with our

experience.

<<<Therefore when we say we will accept life taking the good with the

bad, underneath that concept is another concept expecting a payoff--

relief from suffering. As long as it is conceptual this is inevitable-

-no way out. We are imprisoned as it were by our own minds.>>>

Here is the question: given that we innately want to reduce our own

suffering, can mindfulness and acceptance help us to do so?

Absolutely. Personal experience and scientific research both confirm

this fact.

Granted, a tight, literal interpretation of the taoist model--with

its paradoxes and metaphors--might generate a different conclusion,

but that only means that we should not interpret the taoist model

tightly or literally. And notice that the taoists do not ask us to

do so.

As always, experience has the final say.

Still, there is a valuable lesson here. If we try to use the

principles of mindfulness and acceptance as part of an overt control

agenda, they will break down. If we cling to them as a way to

manipulate the content of our thoughts and feelings, we will remain

caught in our original problem: trying to control what is not ours to

control.

We have to truly relinquish control over the thoughts, feelings, and

reactions that were never ours to control in the first place. We

need to hand them over to their own forces and take in whatever comes

a result.

But, you might ask, how does one relinquish control when one has

desires and hopes for oneself? That would be like asking, how does

one move one's arm? You cannot give a meaningful answer if you are

speaking psychologically. Psychologically, you just *do* it--you

move your arm. If you want a more complete answer, you have to speak

biologically or neurologically about the matter. We don't yet have

the ability to do that, at least not in the case of mental behaviors

such as letting go.

<<<it seems to me if Psychiatry is going to use this method to treat

folks it ought to at least confront this fact and relegate this to

what is ultimately a non-intellectual enterprise.>>>

Absolutely. We are dealing with a non-intellectual enterprise in

that the lessons involved are not the kind that can be fully captured

inside a literal way of speaking. We have to use metaphors and

paradoxes.

<<<If there is a way out--I'm not at all sure there is; then it would

have to be something transcendant. Somehow we step back and

transcend this intellect/ego/mindset whatever you prefer to call it.

An awareness that is no longer part of that whole mess. That's what

Tolle, Krishnamurti, lao Tzu, possibly Jesus, and certainly the

Buddha were/are speaking about or pointing to.>>>

Fair enough. But just rememeber to separate the conclusions that you

might predict from a given descripton of the problem from the

conclusions that you actually see in your own experience. The ones

that you see are the ones that you should really trust.

<<<All I'm trying to say is let us be very clear on what we mean by

acceptance.>>>

I agree 100%.

In my view, acceptance is not a feeling of peace or contentment such

as " I hate panic, but I'm going to try to stop hating it because I

have to deal with it. "

Rather, acceptance is a stance such as " I hate panic. But I don't

really have any real control over it, so I'm not going to try to

control it, I'm just going to allow whatever comes up, including my

own hatred and frustrations with it. "

Thanks for a great conversation, and best wishes Mike,

--

> > > > >

> > > > > Thanks for your insight and helpful

> > comments,

> > > > Colette. I have

> > > > decided not to go to the dance; it would be

> > very

> > > > painful for me.

> > > > Instead, I need to work on my never-ending

> > > > feelings of rejection and

> > > > abandonment. I'm sure it stems from being

> > placed

> > > > in a permanent

> > > > children's home when I was four years old,

> > after

> > > > temporary stays at

> > > > other homes. Yes, my parents abandoned us five

> > > > kids. I have made

> > > > peace with that intellectually, but not

> > > > emotionally.

> > > > >

> > > > > I bought the book primarily to deal with

> > this

> > > > issue. I have not

> > > > gotten very far into it yet, so am not sure

> > how

> > > > ACT can help me with

> > > > this problem--need to get to the " defusing "

> > part,

> > > > I think. I even

> > > > feel rejected when friends of mine at work go

> > to

> > > > lunch together and

> > > > don't invite me, so it's a rather pervasive

> > > > negative part of my being

> > > > in this world -- being " not good enough " . I

> > hope I

> > > > find the help I

> > > > need via the book and this list.

> > > > >

> > > > > Thanks again!

> > > > >

> > > > > Helena

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Re: Would

> > > > appreciate advice

> > > > >

> >

> === message truncated ===

>

>

>

> Mike C.

>

>

> No man is free who is not master of himself.

> Epictetus (55 AD - 135 AD)

>

>

>

>

>

>

______________________________________________________________________

______________

> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.

> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

>

<<<The taoists talked about this very thing thousands of years ago-so

let's establish that it is a very ancient subject.>>>

Absolutely.

<<<We are really victims of our own capacity for thinking and

conceptualizing.>>>

Yes, and this concept is fundamental to the ACT approach.

Let's move with this concept for a second. Given that we are victims

of our own capacity for thinking and conceptualizing, what do we do?

We might try to think and conceptualize a bit more about the

problem.

Absolutely. ACT is not an intellectual enterprise.

It is an enterprise wherein we learn to escape from the mental rules

and cognitive processes that cause us harm. But we don't use these

rules and processes to escape

<<<the taoists as i understand them speak about an individual and the

idea of non-resistance. " The watercourse Way. " IOW's we are embedded

in life with the illusion of having a distinct, separate existence.

Our ego's fight and resist the inevitable flow of life and at the

same time the ego and its illusions are, too, simply a manifestation

of that life flow.>>>

<<<Therefore when we say we will accept life taking the good with the

bad, underneath that concept is another concept expecting a payoff--

relief from suffering.>>>

<<<it seems to me if Psychiatry is going to use this method to treat

folks it ought to at least confront this fact and relegate this to

what is ultimately a non-intellectual enterprise.>>>

True.

ACT is ultimately an empirical enterprise.

The conclusions about work

<<<Therefore when we say we will accept life taking the good with the

bad, underneath that concept is another concept expecting a payoff--

relief from suffering.>>>

Does the fact that our therapeutic efforts have an underlying

motivation mean that they cannot succeed?

The *only* way to demonstrate such a claim would be empirically.

<<<Therefore when we say we will accept life taking the good with the

bad, underneath that concept is another concept expecting a payoff--

relief from suffering. As long as it is conceptual this is

inevitable--no way out. We are imprisoned as it were by our own

minds.>>>

Here is what I think you are suggesting: if we use the stance of non-

control as a way to control, then we end up back in the same

problem. And you are absolutely right.

The question becomes, is a genuine stance of non-control even

possible? In my experience, the answer is yes, but it is a stance

that we learn experientially, not through a logical analysis of the

problem itself.

Let me share a personal example to explain. When I started therapy,

I had a problem with obsessive thoughts about insomnia. I feared the

thoughts. Because I feared them, they occurred constantly. My mind

was constantly attempting to ensure that I was not having them--and

therefore I was constantly having them.

At first, I took the rational approach. I tried to prove to myself

that I had no reason to fear the thoughts: they were just thoughts.

But the data suggested otherwise: every time I had the thoughts I

ended up with insomnia. So, in a sense, I did have a reason to fear

them. My fears were completely rational.

Notice the tight loop: my fear of my thoughts is what makes them

occur frequently. The fact that they occur frequently prevents me

from sleeping properly. The fact that they prevent me from sleeping

properly justifies my fear of them.

So my fear of my thoughts justifies my fear of my thoughts.

Given that I fear my thoughts, how do I get out of this loop? I

can't just lift myself by the bootstraps and decide that I'm not

going to fear them anymore. That would be lipservice.

Logically, there is no way out of the problem.

After initial exposure to ACT, I developed a plan: I'm going to stop

trying to control my insomnia. Underneath this plan was a very

specific goal: to end my insomnia. Naturally, then, my mind would

try to evaluate the success of plan. Am I still having insomnia? Am

I still afraid of the thoughts?

<<<it seems to me if Psychiatry is going to use this method to treat

folks it ought to at least confront this fact and relegate this to

what is ultimately a non-intellectual enterprise.>>>

Absolutely. This is a non-intellectual enterprise. It is an

enterprise wherein we learn to break free from the mental rules and

cognitive processes that

[Guest guest]

Hi -- Neat perspective.

Einstein once said that we cannot solve problems from within the system in which they are created (or something close to that).

I like that b/c it reminds me how hard it is to see that we cannot readily problem solve ourselves out of our pain, and particularly with our minds. How we think about our pain is part of the system that feeds the suffering. The solution is not to think more, it is to let that go and just be with ourselves. Damn hard -- just about everything we've learned to do since kindergarten goes against this. The old programming runs deep.

IMHO, we need to watch for how we think about acceptance. Many people, including me, have told themselves to " just accept it. " And, I know that I have been guilty of conditional acceptance. It goes something like this -- if I accept this, then I will get that for me. Tit for tat relief, except that the relief never comes in the way that I wanted it.

It took me a goodly part of my adult life to recognize this, not with my mind, but by my experience. I chased all kinds of awards, honors, and on and on that go with my profession as an academic. I chased success, and thinking that this would somehow fill the void. It never has. All the plaques on my wall and pubs haven't done a damn thing for that emptiness. I have three kids and a wonderful wife of 14 years. I worked 24/7 for acceptance and recognition, and it never came in a way that I wanted it too. All of this came to a head when my first born daughter started to formulate her thoughts. She said, as I was heading to the office on a Sunday, " Does daddy have to work today? " I looked into her eyes and the answer was piercingly clear. You know the answer. Everything changed for me in that moment. I learned that I had everything that I needed. I was whole. I was complete. And, I learned that my legacy -- my real legacy -- wasn't to be found in another publication, grant, late nights away from my kids. No. My kids, my family, are my legacy. My kids will likely grow up to have their own children, and they will parent them in part based on what they learned from me and my wife. I decided that I wanted to be there for that -- fully there, without the expectation of their perfection. To do that, I had to let go of all the stuff I chased and just be where I am. I don't work weekends anymore.

I think you are right about the message of Tolle, and many others. They are more or less consistent with ACT, but here is a real difference. Tolle and others speak to the snares of our minds and the benefits of mindful acceptance, but he and others do not point to strategies to get out of that trap -- and here I mean strategies that have empirical support; the kind of support that comes from science. This is where I think ACT can help.

It's funny. I've been lurking on Oprah's message boards re: Tolle. So many people love the message, but equally palpable is the frustration with how to enact in via actions to make a difference in life. This is what ACT offers -- a way of peace and a life lived well based on hard work -- science, research, peer review, and on and on. IMHO, ACT is empirically supported for a wide range of problems that keep people stuck and suffering -- Tolle and others in that tradition cannot say that.

peace -j

P. Forsyth, Ph.D.

Associate Professor of Psychology

University at Albany, SUNY

Department of Psychology, SS369

1400 Washington Avenue

Albany, NY 12222

Ph:

Fax:

Email: forsyth@...

Web Sites:

www.albany.edu/~forsyth

www.acceptanceandmindfulness.com

www.act-for-anxiety-disorders.com

www.contextualpsychology.org

Re: Re: Would appreciate advice

,

I certainly agree with the basic premise. I just

cannot wrap my mind around the concept; probably

because it is a concept. Let me take a shot. The

taoists talked about this very thing thousands of

years ago-so let's establish that it is a very ancient

subject. the taoists as i understand them speak about

an individual and the idea of non-resistance. " The

watercourse Way. " IOW's we are embedded in life with

the illusion of having a distinct, separate existence.

Our ego's fight and resist the inevitable flow of life

and at the same time the ego and its illusions are,

too, simply a manifestation of that life flow. There

is no way to come to this intellectually because the

intellect by its nature must conceptualize and the

whole dividing process comes into play. We are really

victims of our own capacity for thinking and

conceptualizing. Therefore when we say we will accept

life taking the good with the bad, underneath that

concept is another concept expecting a payoff--relief

from suffering. As long as it is conceptual this is

inevitable--no way out. We are imprisoned as it were

by our own minds. it seems to me if Psychiatry is

going to use this method to treat folks it ought to at

least confront this fact and relegate this to what is

ultimately a non-intellectual enterprise. You can't

have it both ways and I guess that is where i am

coming from. Acceptance implies expectations--at least

on the intellectual level and the cycle of opposites

is set in motion. IOW's " I will accept my panic

attacks but i really don't; I just delude myself into

saying that i do because i approach life as if I'm in

control. If I believe that, I cannot accept on a

fundamental level.

If there is a way out--I'm not at all sure there is;

then it would have to be something transcendant.

Somehow we step back and transcend this

intellect/ego/mindset whatever you prefer to call it.

An awareness that is no longer part of that whole

mess. That's what Tolle, Krishnamurti, lao Tzu,

possibly Jesus, and certainly the Buddha were/are

speaking about or pointing to.

To sum it up I think one needs to have a clear picture

of this dilemma and move from that point. So if a

panic attack occurred it would be experienced by a

higher awareness that would simply observe the mental

phenomenon without getting caught up in it. I, who

have had PA's on occasion, cannot imagine the

possibility of it; in fact my guess is that if one

moved beyond the ego-if this is even possible for most

of us-then panic attacks would not ever occur because

the fundamental problem of delusion would be settled

and panic attacks are certainly forms of a deluded

mind. That is not to say one cannot move beyond them

because within the ego structure there are methods to

de-stress, avoid caffiene, alchohol, use exercise etc.

and these do really help. For myself just cutting back

on caffiene solved the problem 95%. All I'm trying to

say is let us be very clear on what we mean by

acceptance.

Most humbly,

Mike

--- Parks wrote:

> Mike,

>

> You bring up some good questions. Let me see if I

> can make some

> sense of them.

>

> <<<How does one accept when there are expectations.

> IOW's the concept

> of acceptance means to me a total surrender with no

> expectations

> whatsoever.>>>

>

> Try to understand acceptance not as a feeling but as

> a stance that we

> take towards the features of our lives that our

> outside of our

> control--especially our thoughts, feelings, and

> reactions.

>

> Consider the example of recurrent feelings of panic.

> The natural

> inclinication of a person who experiences recurrent

> feelings of panic

> is to try their hardest to stop the *next*

> occurrence from taking

> place. The person will try to control panic to the

> maximum extent

> possible so that it doesn't happen again.

>

> But this approach doesn't work. It only makes the

> problem worse.

> Eventually, it *becomes* the very problem that it is

> trying to

> solve.

>

> So instead of trying to control panic, the better

> approach is to

> accept it. What we mean by 'accept' is to let go of

> control and to

> expose ourselves to whatever feelings arise

> naturally in the

> situation.

>

> We let panic decide when it is going to happen. We

> let it regulate

> its own occurrence. Of course, the panic itself

> continues to be a

> miserable and frightful experience. We continue to

> fear it and to

> flinch in its presence. But these are just more

> feelings and

> reactions that we need to accept.

>

> <<<I will have a better life by accepting, but that

> is not acceptance

> that is expectation. the two are very different it

> seems to me.>>>

>

> To me, acceptance as described above seems fully

> compatible with the

> hope for a better life. Note that this life will

> still be temporary

> and finite, filled with almost as much pain as joy.

> But for many of

> us, such a life is infinitely better than the status

> quo.

>

> Now, I think you are right to notice that excessive

> expectations can

> interfere with the outcome. It helps if you can let

> go of

> expectations a bit and just proceed with a

> beginner's mind--take

> a " let's see what happens with this stuff " attitude.

> But if you

> can't, that's OK too. ACT will teach you how to

> loosen things up in

> your mind so that you can more easily stand back and

> let the process

> happen.

>

>

> > > >

> > > > Thanks for your insight and helpful

> comments,

> > > Colette. I have

> > > decided not to go to the dance; it would be

> very

> > > painful for me.

> > > Instead, I need to work on my never-ending

> > > feelings of rejection and

> > > abandonment. I'm sure it stems from being

> placed

> > > in a permanent

> > > children's home when I was four years old,

> after

> > > temporary stays at

> > > other homes. Yes, my parents abandoned us five

> > > kids. I have made

> > > peace with that intellectually, but not

> > > emotionally.

> > > >

> > > > I bought the book primarily to deal with

> this

> > > issue. I have not

> > > gotten very far into it yet, so am not sure

> how

> > > ACT can help me with

> > > this problem--need to get to the " defusing "

> part,

> > > I think. I even

> > > feel rejected when friends of mine at work go

> to

> > > lunch together and

> > > don't invite me, so it's a rather pervasive

> > > negative part of my being

> > > in this world -- being " not good enough " . I

> hope I

> > > find the help I

> > > need via the book and this list.

> > > >

> > > > Thanks again!

> > > >

> > > > Helena

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Re: Would

> > > appreciate advice

> > > >

>

=== message truncated ===

Mike C.

No man is free who is not master of himself.

Epictetus (55 AD - 135 AD)

____________________________________________________________________________________

Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.

http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

My first exposure to ACT occurred while randomly perusing a book of

yours at a and Noble called Acceptance and Commtiment Therapy

for Anxiety Disorders: A Practitioner's Guide. After reading the

sample dialogues with clients, I was able to clearly see the problems

in my way of approaching my anxiety. I knew right then that I had

to get plugged into ACT. So your long hours at the office are

definitely appreciated ;-)

<<<I think you are right about the message of Tolle, and many

others. They are more or less consistent with ACT, but here is a

real difference. Tolle and others speak to the snares of our minds

and the benefits of mindful acceptance, but he and others do not

point to strategies to get out of that trap -- and here I mean

strategies that have empirical support; the kind of support that

comes from science. This is where I think ACT can help.>>>

Absolutely. IMHO what makes ACT superior to traditional buddhism as

a psychotherapy is that (1) the principles and problems are

communicated to the client more clearly and effectively, (2) in

addition to meditation, there are multiple techniques and exercises

that help the client cultivate mindfulness and dissolve mental traps,

(3) the commitment and values angle provides the client with a

crucial springboard from which to break free from the status quo

and " jump in " to life without having to first make the problems go

away, and (4) the underlying philosophy is pragmatic and experimental

in that the system holds even its own theoretical principles lightly

and submits itself to rigorous scientific testing.

Best wishes,

--

> > > > >

> > > > > Thanks for your insight and helpful

> > comments,

> > > > Colette. I have

> > > > decided not to go to the dance; it would be

> > very

> > > > painful for me.

> > > > Instead, I need to work on my never-ending

> > > > feelings of rejection and

> > > > abandonment. I'm sure it stems from being

> > placed

> > > > in a permanent

> > > > children's home when I was four years old,

> > after

> > > > temporary stays at

> > > > other homes. Yes, my parents abandoned us five

> > > > kids. I have made

> > > > peace with that intellectually, but not

> > > > emotionally.

> > > > >

> > > > > I bought the book primarily to deal with

> > this

> > > > issue. I have not

> > > > gotten very far into it yet, so am not sure

> > how

> > > > ACT can help me with

> > > > this problem--need to get to the " defusing "

> > part,

> > > > I think. I even

> > > > feel rejected when friends of mine at work go

> > to

> > > > lunch together and

> > > > don't invite me, so it's a rather pervasive

> > > > negative part of my being

> > > > in this world -- being " not good enough " . I

> > hope I

> > > > find the help I

> > > > need via the book and this list.

> > > > >

> > > > > Thanks again!

> > > > >

> > > > > Helena

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Re: Would

> > > > appreciate advice

> > > > >

> >

> === message truncated ===

>

>

>

> Mike C.

>

>

> No man is free who is not master of himself.

> Epictetus (55 AD - 135 AD)

>

>

>

>

>

>

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